TenQ:

The Universe originated 13.8 billion years ago from a gravitational singularity. Time, Space and Matter with ALL the Laws of Physics started simultaneously at this time.

Can you logically or scientifically prove that infinite regress of cause and effect is possible?

Since I haven't claimed it's possible, I'm not going to attempt to prove that it's possible. As a Christian, you do claim that a necessary being is possible. Can you prove it?

And no, you've misunderstood the science of the big bang. It does not say anything about how or when the universe originated. That is simply unknown.

midnight378:


you don't know that. Absolutely not . No.
1. there are many logics... , and you don't know (nor have you justified the one you're using) which one applies to the conditions you're claiming your logic applies to . You have not demonstrated there is a universal logic that applies to all situations . Even in this universe at a singularity, your logic does not apply. Fail. Near a black hole your logic does not apply......
which logic are you using and how is it you know it applies to the reality you're talking about ? Hint: You don't . Justify the logic you're using , or stop talking about logics.
2. you know nothing except 5% of this universe . You know nothing about the reality in which your gods exist . You know nothing about anything in those conditions . Your gods are not bound by your logic . You know nothing about the reality , logic or cause and effect that would have been external to this universe... you're making claims about "has to terminate somewhere" you know nothing about..... Fail again.
3. Is this your first debate ? These are rookie errors. "Terminates" assumes space-time exists in the reality without this universe , (and contradicts the theology of an eternal/timeless God and its environment).
you know nothing about that reality , and as far as we know space-time began at the Big Bang. Using ANY temporal reference ("terminate" is unsupported/unfounded/unwarranted.
Typical Christian ignorant misrepresentations.

Cool down and learn!

Logic is a step above experience and experiments.

Logic is very simple
If A>B (Postulate 1)
and
If B>C (Postulate 2)
THEN
A>C (Conclusion)

The conclusion can only be wrong if either of the two postulates are wrong.
From the knowledge, we have are the postulates surrounding infinite regress false?

Until they are PROVEN FALSE, the CONCLUSION is TRUE

You can't beat logic: only if the postulates are wrong can the conclusion be invalidated

Show logically or scientifically that infinite regress of cause and effect is possible?


Time, Space, Matter and all the laws of Physics occured simultaneously at/after big bang.
You know the implication!?

It means that however we try Scientifically, we cannot probe beyond (before) the big bang.

The Uncaused First cause must of course be beyond (before/ the big bang) meaning that He cannot be subject either to the laws of physics nor be of material/matter origin.

The Uncaused First cause is an ENIGMA!

1000WaysToLive:

LoL......

How it started....



....how it's going.


I guess..then, according to this line of reasoning, with a god..nothing is wrong? Bestiality, necromancers (l-o-l)cannibalism, incest, etc.

What a warped mind!

TenQ:

Have you ever seen an intelligent communication without an intelligent source?

If you go to the beach and you see written on the sand "TenQ likes Near1", will you conclude that the waves or a crab wrote it ?

Whenever you see systems like a House with functional doors, Windows, kitchen and bedroom, do you think that the storm must have done it!

When you see the DNA (a complex library of data and information), you think this was a random coincidence?

What you are asserting is the scientific impossibility that nothing created everything?

He has not asserted any such thing!

For crying out loud, are you simply incapable of reading for comprehension? Is English not your first language? Or is there some other handicap that explains your constant misreading?

chryssanthe:

https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/cgi-bin/uy/webpages.cgi?/logicalfallacies/Shifting-of-the-Burden-of-Proof
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burden_of_proof_(philosophy)



When spacetime breaks down at planck-time, all scientific laws break down, space and time are no more and your logic becomes meaningless.
That is (currently) the model best fitting available data (measuring microwave background radiation and brightness of Supernovae).


Everything has a cause! except *inject your favourite fantasy*

Its called "special pleading", and its a logical fallacy!

But lets grant you for a moment that there WAS a (first) cause, creating everything. Please demonstrate why it has to be all powerful.

I claim it needs to be just powerful enough to create what actually WAS created. I claim that this first cause was NOT able to create anything else than the universe/multiverse we actually live in!
Prove me wrong!

Oh, and you were objectively wrong about objective morals. You know why? Because its a fact that you were wrong (according to the definition of objective morals), and this is not influenced by your opinions, feelings or interpretations, or your gods for that matter!

At least you acknowledge that all the laws of physics, matter, space, energy and time break down at the origin of OUR time, OUR space, OUR energy and OUR matter.

The implication is simple:;there is Something that is beyond TIME, SPACE and MATTER that set the Universe rolling that the Laws of Physics and Chemistry cannot unravel.

This is the Primary Mover of EVERY thing we know. This can be a Person or a Force (an argument for another day).

As Christians we know Him to be a Person. Science cannot even measure or detect Him. Atheists deny what they cannot even comprehend!

Does an UNCAUSED FIRST CAUSE of EVERYTHING exist (either as a Force or a Personality)?

1000WaysToLive:
YOU SAID: "Objective standard is any standard you can't bend at your whim."


That is not what an objective standard is...at all. An objective standard is one which accurately reports those facts it purports to report.

Can you bend them to your will? Absolutely..and people commonly do.

YOU SAID: "Example is legal age in most western cultures set at 18 years old. Even if it changes to 17 years old, it is still an objective standard for citizens."

A persons age is objective - it is true or false of the object (the person in question) that they are equal to or greater than 18 years old.

We do like to think our laws are based in facts. This is irrelevant to morality, however..if morality is not objective. If morality is a gods subjective code.

Morality can be God subjective code but it makes it Man's OBJECTIVE code.

The Legal age is subjective to the Government (it could have been any age whatsoever). However, whatever age they choose is Objective to the citizens.

The frame of reference of definition is important my dear!

1000WaysToLive:
YOU SAID: "The subjective code of a deity makes it objective for man."

That's not how it works, full stop. A gods subjective code is what it is.

Subjective. Subjective to god, subjective to man. Subjective to your house pet. It's subjectivity is a description of it's origin. God commands are not facts, they are opinions, according to you.


YOU SAID: "Sometimes, a government steps in to fulfill the same role."

Our government concerns itself with legality, not morality - and governments are explicitly relative - not subjective -or- objective.

As you're aware, there are many things which you would find immoral that are not illegal....as well as many things which are illegal that you would not find immoral.

YOU SAID: "The age 18 years old as a baseline for consent is an objective rule made by government. If a child is 17 years 9 months, you cannot have sex with her as an adult without the risk of legal infraction."


Sure, if the age of consent is 18, then it follows that sex with someone under 18 is illegal - but a thing being illegal does not equate to a thing being immoral.

Perhaps what you've meant to say is that you believe gods hands us laws, not an objective moral code? All fine and well, but there are more sets of laws in the world that we don't follow, than ones that do.


I have no interest in god-laws. I'm not subject to god-laws. There is no moral imperative that I follow god-laws.

Does it matter if a law is Legal rather than moral?
Infraction of God's legal laws is called SIN of which immorality is a subset.


Example is legal age in most western cultures set at 18 years old. Even if it changes to 17 years old, it is still an objective standard for citizens.

A man who had sex with a 17 years 9 months old girl would be attested for rape.

In a community where there is no form of government, do you think Murder, Rape and Cannibalism are okay?

TenQ:

Cool down and learn!

Logic is a step above experience and experiments.

Logic is very simple
If A>B (Postulate 1)
and
If B>C (Postulate 2)
THEN
C>A (Conclusion)

The conclusion can only be wrong if either of the two postulates are wrong.
From the knowledge, we have are the postulates surrounding infinite regress false?

Until they are PROVEN FALSE, the CONCLUSION is TRUE

You can't beat logic: only if the postulates are wrong can the conclusion be invalidated

Show logically or scientifically that infinite regress of cause and effect is possible?


Time, Space, Matter and all the laws of Physics occured simultaneously at/after big bang.
You know the implication!?

It means that however we try Scientifically, we cannot probe beyond (before) the big bang.

The Uncaused First cause must of course be beyond (before/ the big bang) meaning that He cannot be subject either to the laws of physics nor be of material/matter origin.

The Uncaused First cause is an ENIGMA!

"Until they are PROVEN FALSE, the CONCLUSION is TRUE"

What world do you come from?

A statement has to be proven to be true to have any validity!

chryssanthe:


You are simply starting with another "thing" that needs another first cause to exist!




Where are the citations to support this statement?
You are simply using wishful thinking and more begging the question. Somehow you've set up your "everything" as extra special because you can't stand the thought that your "everything" isn't all that special. Your god is conveniently unprovable. (So are invisible, magical unicorns) If you were really honest with yourself and with us you'd do what most physicists say, "At this time we do not know". But theists cannot be honest and can't stand the thought that their powerful god isn't automatically the answer to gaps in scientific knowledge!

Therefore, you're bound and determined to shove your god in that gap and claim victory no matter that there is zero evidence for a god!
It's religious hubris!

What I know for certain is that the Universe came into being 13.8billion years ago. Before that time ALL paws of Physics and Chemistry including Times, Space and Matter did NOT exist.

If the gravitational singularity was eternal, it would have been a CONSTANT. If it was a constant, it would still remain a constant till today EXCEPT it is perturbed by an external force (that is strange to the present forces in physics and chemistry).

Whatever moved the gravitational singularity to inflate is EXTERNAL to it and not the kind of force we know in Physics and Chemistry.

You as an Atheist deny this all together, me as a Christian call the primary mover my God. What then is your problem about that

YOU SAID: "Morality can be God subjective code but it makes it man's OBJECTIVE code."

Still not how that works, not even in all caps.

YOU SAID:
"The legal age is subjective to the Government (it could have been any age whatsoever). However, whatever age they choose is Objective to the citizens."

If the legal age were subjective, they'd ask you how old you thought she looked, or how old she seemed.

Bad at words.

There is no immorality, according to you..sin or otherwise. You already explained that if morality was subjective nothing is really good or bad, and insist again here that gods moral code is subjective.

TenQ:

Morality can be God subjective code but it makes it Man's OBJECTIVE code.

The Legal age is subjective to the Government (it could have been any age whatsoever). However, whatever age they choose is Objective to the citizens.

The frame of reference of definition is important my dear!

Complexity is not the hallmark of design, simplicity is.


We also do not recognize design by assessing complexity, but by contrasting it to nature.

Are you going to trot out all the other well known, vapid, stupid and fallacious arguments of most uninformed christians as well?

A 5second google search would disabuse you of all of this ignorant BS. Are you able to google?

Bros are you ok?

TenQ:

Have you ever seen an intelligent communication without an intelligent source?

If you go to the beach and you see written on the sand "TenQ likes Near1", will you conclude that the waves or a crab wrote it ?

Whenever you see systems like a House with functional doors, Windows, kitchen and bedroom, do you think that the storm must have done it!

When you see the DNA (a complex library of data and information), you think this was a random coincidence?

What you are asserting is the scientific impossibility that nothing created everything?

Tamaratonye1:

He has not asserted any such thing!

For crying out loud, are you simply incapable of reading for comprehension? Is English not your first language? Or is there some other handicap that explains your constant misreading?

his argument from personal incredulity is a well known fallacy
he doesn't know what is a scientific impossibility .
there are many theories in abiogenesis (by Nobel winners) of how life began. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abiogenesis
he can provide no scientific reference for his false (ignorant) claim.
there is nowhere science says that, AND yes it is a possibility.
Chaos Theory ... he should check it out. Order arises in this universe spontaneously.
(Has he told us yet which of the many gods created everything ?) (Of course it's his personal god. It always is.)

1. "Thou shalt not kill."
2. "If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;
And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.
And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear."

there is no objective moral system in religion.
in the Bible , it totally depends on the circumstances, which is the definition of "subjective".

TenQ:

Does it matter if a law is Legal rather than moral?
Infraction of God's legal laws is called SIN of which immorality is a subset.


Example is legal age in most western cultures set at 18 years old. Even if it changes to 17 years old, it is still an objective standard for citizens.

A man who had sex with a 17 years 9 months old girl would be attested for rape.

Yet your god impregnates 13 or 14 year old little Mary without her fathers consent!
The age of consent in Hebrew culture 2000 years ago was 12 or sometime after her first period!

She was subject to the rule and legal control of her father which was based on the laws of the Talmud which was based on the laws handed down by their god, the same god you believe in.

According to Christian myth Jesus is the result of impregnating a child which today would be consider statitory rape!
As a secular society we've decided that a 12 year old girl is still a child yet in objective religious standards set up by your god it's perfectly fine to deposit magical sperm in a child.

Tell me again about these objective moral standards!

Morality developes and changes through time and experience. We don't stone children today as is condoned in the bible. Anyone stoning a child today would be in prison!

1000WaysToLive:


Complexity is not the hallmark of design, simplicity is.


We also do not recognize design by assessing complexity, but by contrasting it to nature.

Are you going to trot out all the other well known, vapid, stupid and fallacious arguments of most uninformed christians as well?

A 5second google search would disabuse you of all of this ignorant BS. Are you able to google?

Bros are you ok?

A System is the hallmark of intelligent design.

No wonder you couldn't answer a single question I post.

Google:
Everything can be found on Google including falsehood and misinformation.

Will you answer my questions!?

1000WaysToLive:
YOU SAID: "Morality can be God subjective code but it makes it man's OBJECTIVE code."

Still not how that works, not even in all caps.

YOU SAID:
"The legal age is subjective to the Government (it could have been any age whatsoever). However, whatever age they choose is Objective to the citizens."

If the legal age were subjective, they'd ask you how old you thought she looked, or how old she seemed.

Bad at words.

There is no immorality, according to you..sin or otherwise. You already explained that if morality was subjective nothing is really good or bad, and insist again here that gods moral code is subjective.

Shame on you: I said there is no morality!? And I am a Christian!?

Everyone irrespective of government or no government laws know that Murder, Rape is wrong because we have been programmed to know that these are wrong.

I just punchured you argument that morality is subjective to God therefore also subjective to man.

chryssanthe:


Yet your god impregnates 13 or 14 year old little Mary without her fathers consent!
The age of consent in Hebrew culture 2000 years ago was 12 or sometime after her first period!

She was subject to the rule and legal control of her father which was based on the laws of the Talmud which was based on the laws handed down by their god, the same god you believe in.

According to Christian myth Jesus is the result of impregnating a child which today would be consider statitory rape!
As a secular society we've decided that a 12 year old girl is still a child yet in objective religious standards set up by your god it's perfectly fine to deposit magical sperm in a child.

Tell me again about these objective moral standards!

Morality developes and changes through time and experience. We don't stone children today as is condoned in the bible. Anyone stoning a child today would be in prison!

the holy child predator owed marys dad a lump sum, and poor little mary a support payment...biblically speaking.

they let you do it when you're a god though. Do anything . Grab em by the uterus.

chryssanthe:


"Until they are PROVEN FALSE, the CONCLUSION is TRUE"

What world do you come from?

A statement has to be proven to be true to have any validity!

How many planets do we have in our solar system?

It used to be NINE before Pluto was downgraded

Tamaratonye1:

He has not asserted any such thing!

For crying out loud, are you simply incapable of reading for comprehension? Is English not your first language? Or is there some other handicap that explains your constant misreading?

Speak to my response if you can, and if you can't, it's not compulsory as you don't understand what is written

Tamaratonye1:

Since I haven't claimed it's possible, I'm not going to attempt to prove that it's possible. As a Christian, you do claim that a necessary being is possible. Can you prove it?

And no, you've misunderstood the science of the big bang. It does not say anything about how or when the universe originated. That is simply unknown.

Then you have no business with my claim!

Tamaratonye1:

Since I haven't claimed it's possible, I'm not going to attempt to prove that it's possible. As a Christian, you do claim that a necessary being is possible. Can you prove it?

And no, you've misunderstood the science of the big bang. It does not say anything about how or when the universe originated. That is simply unknown.

How: Big Bang or Inflation of gravitational singularity
When: 13.8billion years ago

You're wrong

chryssanthe:


"Killing is bad" is an example of absolute morality. Killing is bad, no matter what. Now, the reality is that killing in self defense is not all that bad, isnt it?
God proclaiming "Thou shalt not kill" is subjective and absolute morality. Absolute because, see above. Subjective, because of someone proclaiming his personal view to be relevant instead of objective facts.

I am not holding my breath, tho, that Tenq will understand or admit to his mistake.

Murder=Killing!?

Always amusing!

That's true.

You can find true or false information on the internet because facts are objective, unlike your gods morality, according to you

TenQ:



Google:
Everything can be found on Google including falsehood and misinformation.

1000WaysToLive:
That's true.

You can find true or false information on the internet because facts are objective, unlike gods morality, according to you

So you know that and you refer me to the almighty Google!?
Like you just started using the internet!

chryssanthe:


Yet your god impregnates 13 or 14 year old little Mary without her fathers consent!
The age of consent in Hebrew culture 2000 years ago was 12 or sometime after her first period!

She was subject to the rule and legal control of her father which was based on the laws of the Talmud which was based on the laws handed down by their god, the same god you believe in.

According to Christian myth Jesus is the result of impregnating a child which today would be consider statitory rape!
As a secular society we've decided that a 12 year old girl is still a child yet in objective religious standards set up by your god it's perfectly fine to deposit magical sperm in a child.

Tell me again about these objective moral standards!

Morality developes and changes through time and experience. We don't stone children today as is condoned in the bible. Anyone stoning a child today would be in prison!

See how when their defences are the disarray they start finding just anything to grapple on like a drowning man.

Mary was so young and she has a Fiancé!?

See how reprobate your heart is:!?

At least it's commendable that you recognize it as a myth!

People like you scare the crap out of me sometimes. I'm never sure when people like you are just deliberately stupid for some religious belief or naturally dumb as bricks.


Most modern law is based on human-oriented ethics, which are entirely different from religion. And religious morality is mostly based on pre-religious human experience learning to live together.



Most of the rational stuff in religious texts comes from pre-existing common sense. Don't covet your neighbor's goods is kind of obvious. Same with wife back when women were considered property. Respect your elders is a good idea too. They knew stuff.

The rest of the stuff in religious texts is a bunch of crap. Why Sunday? Why not any other day? Thorsday seems as rational.

"In a community where there is no form of government, do you think Murder, Rape and Cannibalism are okay?"

Of course not. I can only laugh at people who think atheists have no ethics just because they don't fear a deity. Atheists are about 15% of the general population, but about 1% of the prison population. I have never found a morew ethical and law-abiding group than atheists. We just don't do that stuff because we understand that, from an ethical human POV, it is wrong.



That is a big difference.

Atheist don't normally do bad things because they understand they are wrong to other humans.

Theists are ordered by god not to do those things bad things because they might be punished.

Think about that.

TenQ:

Does it matter if a law is Legal rather than moral?
Infraction of God's legal laws is called SIN of which immorality is a subset.


Example is legal age in most western cultures set at 18 years old. Even if it changes to 17 years old, it is still an objective standard for citizens.

A man who had sex with a 17 years 9 months old girl would be attested for rape.

In a community where there is no form of government, do you think Murder, Rape and Cannibalism are okay?

You said exactly that. That there is no morality. Did you want to talk about it?


I guess some of us only think things are wrong because they've been programmed to..and not because there is anything really wrong with those things.

That would certainly be the case if morality were subjective, as you believe, or if morality were relative, as many atheists believe.


I'm a moral realist. I don't think and don't argue that morality is subjective -at all-.


You, on the other hand, have insisted in this thread that if morality were subjective, then there wouldn't be anything really wrong with things like rape, murder, incest, necromancy....(still lol-ing). In this same thread...you have insisted that gods moral code is subjective.

Did you want to talk about that?

TenQ:

Shame on you: I said there is no morality!? And I am a Christian!?

Everyone irrespective of government or no government laws know that Murder, Rape is wrong because we have been programmed to know that these are wrong.

I just punchured you argument that morality is subjective to God therefore also subjective to man.

TenQ:

How: Big Bang or Inflation of gravitational singularity
When: 13.8billion years ago

You're wrong

nope. She is not wrong . YOU are wrong. you're taken the typical hijacking of the theory by Christian apologists as true. It is not.
the Big Bang Theory says that something(s) which ALREADY EXISTED, which was at high temperature and density, (no one knows what that was .... but it ALREADY EXISTED, ie it was NOT a "creation event" ) and it expanded ... the Big Bang was the EXPANSIOARY phase, not a beginning of anything.
"Nothing" is not at high temperature and density. SOMETHING was (already) at high temperature and pressure. The Big Bang Theory says NOTHING about the creation or "beginning" of anything.

TenQ:

Shame on you: I said there is no morality!? And I am a Christian!?

Everyone irrespective of government or no government laws know that Murder, Rape is wrong because we have been programmed to know that these are wrong.

I just punchured you argument that morality is subjective to God therefore also subjective to man.

governments put people to death all the time , many times in error.
many people think capital punishment is wrong , many do not.
many people say abortion is murder, many do not.
it used to be legal for husbands to rape their wives.
you punctured nothing.

1000WaysToLive:
People like you scare the crap out of me sometimes. I'm never sure when people like you are just deliberately stupid for some religious belief or naturally dumb as bricks.


Most modern law is based on human-oriented ethics, which are entirely different from religion. And religious morality is mostly based on pre-religious human experience learning to live together.



Most of the rational stuff in religious texts comes from pre-existing common sense. Don't covet your neighbor's goods is kind of obvious. Same with wife back when women were considered property. Respect your elders is a good idea too. They knew stuff.

The rest of the stuff in religious texts is a bunch of crap. Why Sunday? Why not any other day? Thorsday seems as rational.

"In a community where there is no form of government, do you think Murder, Rape and Cannibalism are okay?"

Of course not. I can only laugh at people who think atheists have no ethics just because they don't fear a deity. Atheists are about 15% of the general population, but about 1% of the prison population. I have never found a morew ethical and law-abiding group than atheists. We just don't do that stuff because we understand that, from an ethical human POV, it is wrong.



That is a big difference.

Atheist don't normally do bad things because they understand they are wrong to other humans.

Theists are ordered by god not to do those things bad things because they might be punished.

Think about that.

It's good I scare you bad!
May all your demons ever be scared of my mention!

No wonder, response to simple questions throw you off the bridge.

I'm sure you've never heard of the word conscience: let me explain.

It's the little sentinel program God wrote into you to be your first tutor to doing good. It doesn't matter if you are Buddhist, Hindi, Hare Krishna, Muslim or Christian, you have a conscience (an instinct) that rewards you with peace and joy when you do good and withdraws peace and joy from your heart when you do evil.

Even when you finally decided for Atheism, you remember how EMPTY you felt!?

Even in your Atheism, if you've not completely overwritten your programming, you still have a conscience. Don't you!?

midnight378:


governments put people to death all the time , many times in error.
many people think capital punishment is wrong , many do not.
many people say abortion is murder, many do not.
it used to be legal for husbands to rape their wives.
you punctured nothing.

Governments can be wrong. In fact government can make laws against morals.
Whatever their subjective opinion of laws are become binding and objective to the citizen.

As a member of the communist party in China, tell them you are a Christian or Muslim and see what will happen to you. The Chinese or North Korean Communist Party is exclusively ATHEISTIC!

TenQ:

A System is the hallmark of intelligent design.

No wonder you couldn't answer a single question I post.

Google:
Everything can be found on Google including falsehood and misinformation.

Will you answer my questions!?

you can post no example of intelligent design which does not have at least a purported explanation,
or which cannot be shown to be piss-poor design.

Wow. Is this garbage all you have ?

Intelligent Design is actually an argument AGAINST the gods.
A real god could make things work the way she wants it to work, no matter what the design was.