nuclearboy:

@wordtalk:

Apologies but what Enigma is saying is obvious to many of us!

Its easy (as it were) to say you believe in "church" tithing! Its a totally differentything to say Deut 14 splits tithes amongst "fatherless", "widows", "stranger" AND "levite"! One "insists" its church ONLY whist the other says it could go to others! The church only advocates say church should do the giving to others (as church sees fit) whist the supposed anti-tithers say "we can give ourselves as led".

For saying so, such people are seen to be in rebellion to God's Word!

What Enigma is asking you is thus simple - do you believe tithes can only be paid to church (and thus that its only church that can disburse) or do yoy stand with those who say God can lead a man to give directly to a cause outside of church?

What is the betting that wordtalk will not answer the question directly ---- not even after you ask it and not even after I have provided sample answers?

Enigma:

What is the betting that wordtalk will not answer the question directly ---- not even after you ask it and not even after I have provided sample answers?

I don't think there is any reason to keep pushing on this. I have given answers, explained and expanded on them, and made clear what my views are on this matter. I then asked you to please state for yourself what you believe on the matter - that is the one thing I had silently bet you would not do! Are the stakes still high on that?

Now let me ask you:

See, it is not so difficult afterall to give an honest and straightforward answer to the question

- which makes me wonder: which one of these sample answers applies to YOU?? --

Enigma:


Sample Answer 1.

YES the tither CAN give his tithe directly to widows, orphans etc instead of in/to "church" --- and YES it IS appropriate to call that action tithing.


Sample Answer 2.

YES the tither CAN give his tithe directly to widows, orphans etc instead of in/to "church" --- and YES it IS appropriate to call that action tithing.

Which one applies to you?? Because I have asked you this question earlier: "what would YOU call this?" --

If a person takes a tenth of his income every month and gives it to widows, orphans, other needy people etc, is it appropriate to call the actions of that person "tithing" AND is that portion of income that the person so sets aside a (or even his) "tithe"?"

^^^Some of us don't proclaim what we do in public, I'm afraid.

Now, here is a simple statement

YES the tither CAN give his tithe directly to widows, orphans etc instead of in/to "church" --- and YES it IS appropriate to call that action tithing.

Do you agree or disagree?

Wordtalk isn't going to answer your question, Enigma.

Fact is, I don't call any giving today "tithing." The question to YOU, Wordtalk, is would YOU call it tithing if one gave a tenth of their income to the poor? YOU are the one who is using the term tithing when giving a tenth of your income in the church. WE don't call giving a tenth of our income in/to the church tithing to begin with.

Enigma:

^^^Some of us don't proclaim what we do in public, I'm afraid.

Oh, I see. While you don't proclaim what you do in public, you deem it quite an affair to evade simple questions when they are brought to your doorstep! Nice. Attending to evasive swings is not my forte, I'm afraid .

@Nuke

What do you make of the impasse that we seem to have now reached?

garyarnold:

Wordtalk isn't going to answer your question, Enigma.

Just shut up. I don't put up with your crap, lies and deliberate caviling. End of.

Fact is, I don't call any giving today "tithing."

That's fine - call it "50%", since that is the fiction you have claimed for your own campaign.

The question to YOU, Wordtalk, is would YOU call it tithing if one gave a tenth of their income to the poor? YOU are the one who is using the term tithing when giving a tenth of your income in the church. WE don't call giving a tenth of our income in/to the church tithing to begin with.

Nice try. You want to try and wear a jersey to play match after half-time? Look, my dear sir - I don't play to your games of asking questions while you guys will take the liberty to answer NONE. If you will answer, then let me ask you: what would you call the scenario you describe above?

@Enigma,

If wordtalk agrees that giving a tenth to the poor is considered tithing, it goes against what he thinks should be done with the tithe.

If wordtalk disagrees that giving a tenth to the poor is considered tithing, then he is being legalistic.

He will never answer your question because he loses no matter what his answer.

^^^ Of course s/he will not answer the question; I knew that from the beginning.

Let me make one point: I do not make the allegation that a person is "playing sleight of hand" lightly! I usually know what I'm talking about before I use that expression. Also, as I suggested before --- does "voluntary" now really mean "voluntary"?

All good.

garyarnold:

If wordtalk agrees that giving a tenth to the poor is considered tithing, it goes against what he thinks should be done with the tithe.

How is that so? Are you rehearsing for more of your lies?

If wordtalk disagrees that giving a tenth to the poor is considered tithing, then he is being legalistic.

Another one of your lies for your strawman argument?

He will never answer your question because he loses no matter what his answer.

I see - so that has been the whole purpose of your redundant and indefensible arguments?  Nice try.
You guys try and answer the question and show your mettle. Since you are playing this evasive swing as your first line of defense, how does that show a readinesss to reason on your part?

Enigma:

^^^ Of course s/he will not answer the question; I knew that from the beginning.

I answered your question - nuclearboy observed that I did, and he noted it to you. It is either you're simply being mischievous or you don't really stand anywhere at all. Why was it difficult for you to answer the question?

Let me make one point: I do not make the allegation that a person is "playing sleight of hand" lightly! I usually know what I'm talking about before I use that expression. Also, as I suggested before --- does "voluntary" now really mean "voluntary"?

Oh please! You must have missed my observation that the sleight of hand was all yours, thank you very much! And no, that sudden backflip to not answer the question shows how you like to discuss issues.

Once wordtalk said that tithing did not have to be money, and that tithing does not have to be given in/to the church, he trapped himself.

Now he won't answer simple questions because of the trap that he set for himself!

I'm totally lost now!

You guys want a yes or no and he refuses, ehn?

@wordtalk:

Is the question so hard?

Or is there something I am missing here with you 3?

nuclearboy:

I'm totally lost now!

You guys want a yes or no and he refuses, ehn?

@wordtalk:

Is the question so hard?

Or is there something I am missing here with you 3?

The question is dubious - not hard. If they did not find it any difficult, why are they evading answering the question? WHY?

@ Nuke

I will say confidently that what you're "missing" is that wordtalk's position and the "lemon"'s position are the same that what is in issue is not tithing ---- except that the "lemon" had the integrity to say so openly.

I will however be quite happy to be proven wrong ----- because that would mean the "antitithers" were correct after all. See, garyarnold has got this figured out correctly!

garyarnold:

Once wordtalk said that tithing did not have to be money, and that tithing does not have to be given in/to the church, he trapped himself.

Another weakly rehearsed lie. Still counting how many lies you will tell in one day!

Now he won't answer simple questions because of the trap that he set for himself!

I will fall into no trap - I have answered, and then asked you guys to answer that same question. I am still counting your evasive swings at it. When you try to set a trap for someone, please be careful - you might fall into it yourself (Psalm 7:15)

Can someone please post the question directly to me? Then let's answer. - me, Enigma, Gary and wordtalk (in that order). Please!!

This has gone madly crazy

@nuclearboy,

Since wordtalk said the tithe didn't have to be money, and that it could be whatever you wanted it to be, that opened the door that the tithe could be anything from food to clothes.

Since wordtalk said the tithe didn't have to be given in/to church, that opened the door that the tithe could be given to anyone.

Since wordtalk insists the word tithe merely means a tenth, then I say if I take $10 to church and give one dollar, I am tithing.  Wordtalk won't acknowledge that I would then be a tither.

Wordtalk is totally legalistic, but not Biblically.

Enigma:

I will say confidently that what you're "missing" is that wordtalk's position and the "lemon"'s position are the same that what is in issue is not tithing ---- except that the "lemon" had the integrity to say so openly.

Oh, really? I wonder that the same 'Nuke' was celebrating that I was one of your camp - which means you're saying the same thing afterall, yes - no? This is why you slid away when I asked you the question directly - it wasn't long before I saw your games.

I will however be quite happy to be proven wrong ----- because that would mean the "antitithers" were correct after all. See, garyarnold has got this figured out correctly!

Please answer the question and surprise yourself in the processs. Be man enough to stand up rather than hiding behind excuses.

Can we answer the question then ourselves?

That way, readers can follow us!

What's the question as you guys want it answered?

WE ARE GETTING NOWHERE AS IS!

OK - here is my question to wordtalk:

Now that we are no longer under the law, and now that we are under grace,

If I take ten dollars to church, and I give a tenth of that ten dollars (one dollar), would you say that I was a tither?  Did I not tithe?  Is that not tithing?  After all, I gave a tenth of what I had with me.

OK Nuke, here is the simplified version:

YES the tither CAN give his tithe directly to widows, orphans etc instead of in/to "church" --- and YES it IS appropriate to call that action tithing.

Do you agree or disagree?

EDIT Especially if you say that tithing is only voluntary.

garyarnold:

Since wordtalk said the tithe didn't have to be money, and that it could be whatever you wanted it to be, that opened the door that the tithe could be anything from food to clothes.

Lol, more lies to appeal to your jingoism? Try harder. At the very least, I know that tithing does not include your trash from your trash can. A little honesty will do.

Since wordtalk said the tithe didn't have to be given in/to church, that opened the door that the tithe could be given to anyone.

Please go back and see what I said rather than conjure your mental gymnastics to force your legalism into my posts.

Since wordtalk insists the word tithe merely means a tenth, then I say if I take $10 to church and give one dollar, I am tithing.  Wordtalk won't acknowledge that I would then be a tither.

Ah, now I know you're just quite dumb. Who is "insisting" on the definition of tithes? The one thing that baffles me in your hypocrisy is the fact that you use that same definition but only complain when you see it in my posts. YET,, you have NEVER defined it differently. You're simply at your best form of hypocrisy!

Wordtalk is totally legalistic, but not Biblically.

Sorry, your lying to impress your crowd is not going to add certification to your retired accounting.

Gary,

If the 10 dollars is your income, then 1 dollar is your tithe!

Enigma:

Yes, if we are following the tithe "law" as expressed in Deuteronomy!

Now could someone else answer it\them?

Enigma??

garyarnold:

OK - here is my question to wordtalk:

You go back and answer my questions and I will deal with yours. That is how to be fair in discussions. I won't put up with your hypocrisy and lies, and that is why I will no longer entertain your pretences.

@Nuclearboy,

I never said the $10 was my income. My income may have been a million dollars. But I take $10 to church and give a tenth of that amount. Did I tithe?

The answer is either yes, or no, in which case you are now defining a tithe as a tenth of my income.

@ Nuke

I also edited my question slightly before your answer thus this supplementary question:

Apart from Deuteronomy, if one believes in "voluntary" tithing, then can a tither give his tithe directly to widows etc ---- and is it appropriate to call this action "tithing?

Note also that I actually provided two sample answers to the original question earlier in post #126 above  https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-739830.96.html#msg8975447

IF we are going to say that we can voluntarily give tithes today, then the answer to both my question and that of Enigma must be that they would both qualify as tithing, and both of us would be tithers.

To say otherwise means someone is making up the rules and we didn't follow them.

This is exactly why I say giving tithes is a joke because it can mean whatever one wants it to mean.

Thought Nuke was the rude one! Today I am stymied (at least the goats have kept away).

What's so difficult about these questions that you guys refuse to answer them? A tithe is a tenth is a tithe! And Deut does say it belongs to fatherless, poor, stranger\widow and levite! Whist I do NOT agree pastors are levites, for the purposes of this thread, I accept their claim!

Which means giving one tenth to any combination of the above can be seen as paying tithe!

@Gary: you have given a tithe of what was on you but NOT YOUR tithe!

@Eni:
I settled your query above bu again, YES, that is a tithe!

@ Nuke

The reason why my questions have been difficult for wordtalk to answer is very simple: "voluntary" does not truly mean "voluntary"!

@Gary: you have given a tithe of what was on you but NOT YOUR tithe!

OK, Nuclearboy, then what is the definition of tithe?  Where does it say a tithe must be computed on one's income, other than man-made dictionaries?

Enigma:

@ Nuke

The reason why my questions have been difficult for wordtalk to answer is very simple: "voluntary" does not truly mean "voluntary"!

Enigma, your question was not difficult - but nice to see why even you could not answer it when I asked you to.