@justhappy
That's one good thing about coming on here. You learn that for every Bible literalist religious crackpot out there, there's nearly one thinking Christian.

@JeSoul
i thought i typed 'case closed'. Case CLOSE with a D. Okay, you broke in a lidu.
You should be telling us why you'd condemn a spouse to a life of divorce instead of a separation or reconciliation. Why huh? What happened to the vows of for better for worse and all what not that they both made btw?
On your question, God makes someone married imho. What God has joined together is married.

JeSoul:

Reason # 2 - Abandonment "Yet if the unbelieving one leaves, let him leave; the brother or the sister is not under bondage in such cases, but God has called us to peace," (1 Cor. 7:15).

The scripture here is not about abandonment but rather on the ground of faith. The word of God permits divorce on the grounds of Faith (different religion). A case of when the other partner is unsaved or of other faiths and unwilling to continue the relationship.

A woman is being physically abused, beaten up by her husband daily, sometimes he even beats the children. She has tried everything she can but its only getting worse and she fears for herself & her children. In your opinion, can she divorce him?

What they both need is pastoral counsel. That's why I wonder at those who talk down on pastoral authority and leadership . This are cases where the two Christians having marital conflict needs a pastoral intervention and instruction . If there is need for separation , especially if a party has chosen to follow a path of rebellion against the word and the church the pastor may sanction it. As a last option. But it doesn't have to get there if they both are willing to be corrected.that's why foundation is important. It Is risky to marry a freelance christian who has no shepherd over him or her.

JeSoul:

@my fellow christians,
  Jesus chastized the Pharisees often. Why? because though they were obedient to the Law, their hearts and motives for doing so were impure. Jesus also chastized Martha, for complaining about Mary sitting at His feet instead of helping with the house work. Should the housework not be done? of course not - but in that instance - it was more important to sit and learn. Does God want divorce? of course not - but in certain instances it is the right course of action. [size=14pt]If I will be so bold as to say it is more important in the sight of God to save a life - than to follow a doctrine, a doctrine of which the application to every single case is even suspect to begin with.[/size]

  There was a thread a week or so ago. A girl was run over by a bus but none of the men standing around moved a finger to help her. Their reason? they were muslim & they were fasting and it was against the religion to touch a woman during this time. Isn't this exactly what christians who insist a spouse remain in an abusive situation are also doing? Standing around and pointing to their 'religion' as justification for something you know is wrong? Please look in the mirror my fellow religious people, is the obedience of a doctrine more important than saving a life?

Joagbaje:

What they both need is pastoral counsel. That's why I wonder at those who talk down on pastoral authority and leadership . This are cases where the two Christians having marital conflict needs a pastoral intervention and instruction . If there is need for separation , especially if a party has chosen to follow a path of rebellion against the word and the church the pastor may sanction it. As a last option. But it doesn't have to get there if they both are willing to be corrected.that's why foundation is important. It Is risky to marry a freelance christian who has no shepherd over him or her.

You have an overly high opinion of pastors. I've dealt with dozens of couples with marital problems, many of whom have since gotten divorced, and I can't think of a single case where talking to a pastor helped in any significant way. In my experience, they are just as likely to make things worse by making tactless and re.tarded statements or by taking sides.

Personally I feel that the main factor in determining whether or not a couple should divorce should be the interests of the children, not any religious mumbo jumbo. You should generally try and save the marriage if you can. But if the marital tensions are creating a negative home environment for the kids or if the other partner is abusive, you should definitely divorce. If you don't have kids and you can't fix the marriage, get a divorce.

You could always ask for forgiveness later.

I Love Hischild's Ideas, we actually dont under stand the Bible at all but rally by His Grace that somethings get to work out, One thing i am sure of is that God Hates Divorce, Because He Doesnot Want What He Has Joined TOGATHER, TO BE DIS JOINT, Unless on ground of unfaithfulness , We REALLY NEED God's Grace in Marriages to day

Evil Brain:

You have an overly high opinion of pastors. I've dealt with dozens of couples with marital problems, many of whom have since gotten divorced, and I can't think of a single case where talking to a pastor helped in any significant way. In my experience, they are just as likely to make things worse by making tactless and re.tarded statements or by taking sides.

Personally I feel that the main factor in determining whether or not a couple should divorce should be the interests of the children, not any religious mumbo jumbo. You should generally try and save the marriage if you can. But if the marital tensions are creating a negative home environment for the kids or if the other partner is abusive, you should definitely divorce. If you don't have kids and you can't fix the marriage, get a divorce.

You could always ask for forgiveness later.

Many people  don't understand pastoral ministry ,that is why. You are giving counsel of the flesh. It is dangerous . Are you aware that some marital problems could be demonic? .  And if you dont get that devil out of whoever the problem will not stop.

Some women or men have ,these spirit husbands and spirit wife.  I have dealt with many cases like that. Such people will always fight over nothing. Anger will be extreme and other matters like that.

But apart from spiritual problem . There is a problem of ignorance also.  Ignorance of the word of God and ignorance of family duty or responsibility. That is why many churches have protocols such as marriage classes  which intending couple should under go. But many people fight against it as though church is making marriage difficult with so much protocols.

The pastor has the final say . That's the bible for you sir. The church has it's own structure ordained by God in redo ing conflicts.

Matthew 18:15-17
15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. 16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. 17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

You can see here that it is only if a man refuse pastoral judgement that he can be handled otherwise .

I was going to comment on a few posts like Evilbrain's & Image . . . but this comment:

Joagbaje:
The pastor has the final say. That's the bible for you sir. The church has it's own structure ordained by God in redo ing conflicts.

  . . . irritates me on so many levels that I will just hold my peace before I say something rude.

^^^* It is a disgrace; basically the "pastors" of this ilk want to control the lives of their victims and in the process elevating themselves as having some unique powers and authority. The long and short of it is that these type of "pastors" are basically like "babalawos", native oraclists, occultists etc.

Of course counseling can be helpful; it does not even have to be counseling from "pastors"; you could get good counseling even from good family elders ---- far far more experienced and far far more insightful than a lot of vagabonds calling themselves "pastors". Even the Bible sees "pastors" as elders anyway and the Bible does not in fact necessarily eliminate the use of normal social/family structures for these issues. Above all, the Bible does not give the kind of powers being grabbed here for "pastors"; only some vagabond "pastors" do that.


* Sometimes it is necessary to say some rude things and maybe there are some people tasked with doing it; so there, I've said some rude things now.

Enigma:

^^^* It is a disgrace; basically the "pastors" of this ilk want to control the lives of their victims and in the process elevating themselves as having some unique powers and authority.

Honestly. How can someone say with a straight face and right hand on the bible, that it is the pastor who 'has the final say'(with the weight & subsequent implications of such a phrase) in what happens between a husband & wife? It is just so wrong on so many levels I don't even know where to start  

Sometimes it is necessary to say some rude things and maybe there are some people tasked with doing it; so there, I've said some rude things now.

Lol. Constructively rude is good . . . my own would have been missing the 'constructive' part.

On second, much cooler take, Joagbaje does make some good points about counselling and the importance of having a strong foundation before heading into the marriage - this can make all the difference in the world. I'm actually pro marriage classes that are required in churches before a couple can wed there. This is practical and beneficial to all. In cases of abuse, seperation for a season may indeed be the solution for some as Joe said & as I mentioned earlier - but this is not one approach that fits all - and it is certainly not one the pastor must 'sanction' first before they can go ahead.

Where he places absolute power in the hands of pastors over the decisions between a husband & wife is in my opinion a terribly distorted application of scripture. There is no question that scripture recognizes pastors, deacons and older elders within the church as spiritual authorities over the flock charged with guiding and leading the sheep in the ways of Christ and the bible, and the flock looks to them, listens to them and respects them and honors them

  . . . however, it does not bestow upon them the magnitude and scope of power that oga Jogbaje is suggesting - in my humble opinion.

^^^ While I agree with Evil Brain that Joagbaje has too high opinion of pastors, I agree with him on the point about people having influences exercised over them, even in marriage. In fact, I would ask anyone, especially the woman, going into a marriage to find out who the proposed spouse's influences are.

"You must have been blessed with great friends and good advice all these years."
"No, I'm self-made."

"Who is your role model?"
"Jesus Christ!"

Ok.

I would tell a girl planning to go into marriage that when her husband starts misbehaving there should be someone she can pick up the phone and call, someone the man is certain to at least listen to. Of course, that person may just be his pastor. It might be someone else. Personally one of the human beings I respect most and will pick up his call at 2am and listen to him talk till dawn is an elderly friend who is, by pure coincidence, a pastor. Not my pastor, since I am no churchgoer, but a pastor. I think Joagbaje is right about someone playing this role in a man's life. Where he gets is wrong is the idea that it must be your pastor.

JeSoul:

Honestly. How can someone say with a straight face and right hand on the bible, that it is the pastor who 'has the final say'(with the weight & subsequent implications of such a phrase) in what happens between a husband & wife? It is just so wrong on so many levels I don't even know where to start  
Lol. Constructively rude is good . . . my own would have been missing the 'constructive' part.

You can go ahead and say the rude things , after all worst things have been said by the people you hold in high esteem here. I wonder what kind of God they believe in.

But I will still like to make my point if you care . The pastor has the final say because he stands in an office and power is vested on him by the virtue of that office. If two Christians have conflicts either in the home or business the church has a judicial  structure . And the word of God is presented to the parties. The person who is wrong according to scriptures ought to take it that way. But if he would not listen to the pastor or the church authority , then he can be treated as an enemy . That's what the bible teaches. The authority of the pastor is according to the Word of God. So long as he takes stand With Gods Word .

1 Corinthians 6:1-6
1 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints? 2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? 3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? 4 If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church. 5 I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren? 6 But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers.

The abused partner (and children) need to get to safety. We know that there are marriages where the children suffer se./xual and physical abuse. The Wife should seek protection for herself and her children, possibly outside the current family home. She does not have to divorce her husband. Temporary seperation may bring the abusive Husband back to his senses (not that I would take back a husband who has sexually abused his own child, IMO. I would rather remain single for the rest of my life).

God hates divorce . . . but God understands our weaknesses! We are only saved by his grace!

Joagbaje:

You can go ahead and say the rude things , after all worst things have been said by the people you hold in high esteem here. I wonder what kind of God they believe in.

Don't worry, I'm sure you're used to it but nobody will abuse you here.

But I will still like to make my point if you care . The pastor has the final say because he stands in an office and power is vested on him by the virtue of that office. If two Christians have conflicts either in the home or business the church has a judicial  structure . And the word of God is presented to the parties. The person who is wrong according to scriptures ought to take it that way. But if he would not listen to the pastor or the church authority , then he can be treated as an enemy . That's what the bible teaches. The authority of the pastor is according to the Word of God. So long as he takes stand With Gods Word .

 And the pastor is infallible abi? Okay oh. I don talk my own finish already. I have nothing more to add:

JeSoul:

On second, much cooler take, Joagbaje does make some good points about counselling and the importance of having a strong foundation before heading into the marriage - this can make all the difference in the world. I'm actually pro marriage classes that are required in churches before a couple can wed there. This is practical and beneficial to all. In cases of abuse, seperation for a season may indeed be the solution for some as Joe said & as I mentioned earlier - but this is not one approach that fits all - and it is certainly not one the pastor must 'sanction' first before they can go ahead.

Where he places absolute power in the hands of pastors over the decisions between a husband & wife is in my opinion a terribly distorted application of scripture. There is no question that scripture recognizes pastors, deacons and older elders within the church as spiritual authorities over the flock charged with guiding and leading the sheep in the ways of Christ and the bible, and the flock looks to them, listens to them and respects them and honors them

 . . . however, it does not bestow upon them the magnitude and scope of power that oga Jogbaje is suggesting - in my humble opinion.

MyJoe:

^^^ While I agree with Evil Brain that Joagbaje has too high opinion of pastors, I agree with him on the point about people having influences exercised over them, even in marriage. In fact, I would ask anyone, especially the woman, going into a marriage to find out who the proposed spouse's influences are.

"You must have been blessed with great friends and good advice all these years."
"No, I'm self-made."

"Who is your role model?"
"Jesus Christ!"

Ok.

I would tell a girl planning to go into marriage that when her husband starts misbehaving there should be someone she can pick up the phone and call, someone the man is certain to at least listen to. Of course, that person may just be his pastor. It might be someone else. Personally one of the human beings I respect most and will pick up his call at 2am and listen to him talk till dawn is an elderly friend who is, by pure coincidence, a pastor. Not my pastor, since I am no churchgoer, but a pastor. I think Joagbaje is right about someone playing this role in a man's life. Where he gets is wrong is the idea that it must be your pastor.

This is very true. We all need older, more experienced people that we look up to & that we can call up and talk with and get advice from - this point is absolutely true - but joagbaje not only seems to think it should be the pastor, but that the final decision also belongs to the pastor.

Anyways . . . Myjoe, how body now?

Joagbaje:

Many people don't understand pastoral ministry ,that is why. You are giving counsel of the flesh. It is dangerous . Are you aware that some marital problems could be demonic? . And if you dont get that devil out of whoever the problem will not stop.

Some women or men have ,these spirit husbands and spirit wife. I have dealt with many cases like that. Such people will always fight over nothing. Anger will be extreme and other matters like that.

But apart from spiritual problem . There is a problem of ignorance also. Ignorance of the word of God and ignorance of family duty or responsibility. That is why many churches have protocols such as marriage classes which intending couple should under go. But many people fight against it as though church is making marriage difficult with so much protocols.

The pastor has the final say . That's the bible for you sir. The church has it's own structure ordained by God in redo ing conflicts.

Matthew 18:15-17
15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. 16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. 17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

You can see here that it is only if a man refuse pastoral judgement that he can be handled otherwise .

What if this "mighty" pastor is not fit to counsel. What if the pastor is going through his/her marital problems or has been caught abusing his position of trust? What do they do then?


If you depend on Man, your disappointments knows no bound.

I.e the man is pounding his wife day and night----"she has no say"

The woman has given her husband a "bastard chid"-----"he has no say"

Why?


THE PASTOR HAS THE FINAL SAY


PASTORS= GOD

dare2think:

What if this "mighty" pastor is not fit to counsel.  What if the pastor is going through his/her marital problems or has been caught abusing his position of trust? What do they do then?
If you depend on Man, your disappointments knows no bound.

A pastor counsels by the anointing and by the word.Not by personal experience or perfection. A coach doesn't have to be an Olympic medalist to make you one. Why was Moses judging Israel? Why did the people go to him? Was he perfect? Yet the oracle of shod was in his mouth. Why don't they settle it by themselves ? Ask yourself. You guys have so much portrayed the pastoral ministry as money making venture that you have lost the definition of the office.

A pastor is ordained to feed the sheep with the knowledge of truth, he is a guide and a guard ,  That's what God has made that office to be . The oracle of God is in his mouth. If he can't counsel people about their life ,what is his ministry about then? What's he doing there?

JeSoul:

This is very true. We all need older, more experienced people that we look up to & that we can call up and talk with and get advice from - this point is absolutely true - but joagbaje not only seems to think it should be the pastor, but that the final decision also belongs to the pastor.

Anyways . . . Myjoe, how body now?

I'm good. You?

I think Joagbaje sees the relationship between a Christian and his pastor as that between a patient and his doctor - the doctor has the final say. I think it's different. In any case the doctor doesn't have the final say, and there are good and bad doctors, drivers, plumbers and lawyers. . . . Myjoe, how body now?
[quote][/quote]
I'm good. You?

I think Joagbaje sees the relationship between a Christian and his pastor as that between a patient and his doctor - the doctor has the final say. I think it's different. In any case the doctor doesn't have the final say, and there are good and bad doctors, drivers, plumbers and lawyers.