litigator:
■What do you mean by natural and unnatural decedents?
■Did Obed bridge that gap by birthing Boaz who was of mixed blood and thus the linage down to Jesse, David, Solomon, Joseph and Jesus were all of mixed blood? You can look this up in Ruth 2. I await your response

1. I don't know what the other meant when he attempted to introduce the passage to this discussion. I repeatedly asked him to explain himself but he refused.
2. Bridge what gap? Since one of his parent's lineage could be traced back to Jacob, why do you assume a "gap" of some sort existed? Surely, you know that not all Israelites are born from parents who are both Israelites, right?

litigator:

Hmmm! This is good. I used to study with your folks during my University days and we used to break bread as brethren. They allowed me to ask all my Sunday school questions and satisfy all my pent-up curiosities from Sunday school and Scripture Union. I lost contact when I moved, business and school take a toll and the rest is history. I will be grateful to have you join the discourse. Shalom

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm, i love hearing this!

God wants to guide mankind so we can enjoy life to the fullest {Isaiah 48:17-18} but then His messages must be coded due to the presence of fallen angels everywhere people live God has separated those fallen angels from the gathering of His loyal spirit sons {2Peter 2:4; Jude 1:6} so they're not permitted to receive any information about the future they only know that they will be exterminated but how? They don't know. That's why they're always trying to know through the mouth of God's servants because God use His Holy Spirit to speaks to His worshipers through the mouth of His servants! 1Peter 1:12

This means that most of the information found in God's word will be coded {Daniel 13:10-13} until God dispense His Holy Spirit unto faithful Jews {Joel 2:18 compare to Act 2:16-18} and they will have to pass the messages to those who deserve it.

Even when Jesus walked the earth he still kept those messages in coded form {Matthew 13:13} but whenever he noticed that he's only with his trusted friends he speaks plainly. Matthew 13:11

So back to your question!

After the death of Jesus' first century Jewish disciples Satan quickly established falsehood {Matthew 13:25} and his agents became the frontiers all over the place claiming they're Christians with big religious titles which Jesus has warned against {Matthew 23:8-10} so God's Holy Spirit left the churches and guessing took place everywhere as most religious leaders were coming up with different doctrines all in the name of Christ.

But the truth is only the humble people who doesn't allow religious titles to blur their senses will be backed by God's Holy Spirit {Matthew 18:4} and their understanding of God's word will be like the gradual brightness of daylight {Proverbs 4:18} as the spirit grants them understanding they mustn't allow pride to make them feel they've become perfect instead they should be ready to admit their errors and make amendment wherever it's needed in their doctrines!

So the Bible is perfect but it's imperfect humans that must humbly welcome updating of our understanding of God's word since the info was coded for Satan, his demons and their human agents never to understand.

For your information that's why most people are always looking forward to what JWs will say regarding the end of the world. Satan and his demons knew very well that this organization is the one and only group of imperfect humans God is directing but their agents don't know why they must always question JWs over doctrines when there is well over 41,000 different sects with contradicting teachings and conflicting doctrines all claiming denominations in Christendom!

litigator:


Hmmm! This is good.

I used to study with your folks during my University days and we used to break bread as brethren.

They allowed me to ask all my Sunday school questions and satisfy all my pent-up curiosities from Sunday school and Scripture Union.

I lost contact when I moved, business and school take a toll and the rest is history.

I will be grateful to have you join the discourse.

Shalom

Nice
I encourage you to still look for them
Better than asking questions here in this forum
You may get Max mail or whatsapp contact for communication if you have questions
You can even visit our website jw.org to ask any questions. If you want a visit from the Witnesses, still ask for one from the same website

litigator:
Well! I won’t say yes cos I still a student of learning. I do akin these tools of interpretation like the 3 basic rule of legal interpretation. It almost the same.

The inconsistencies you perceive are not found in the book but with the many narratives out there, attempting to explain what is written in the book without in fact addressing that written as is written. The book was compiled by the mind of humans and penned down by human hands in human language to be read and understood by humans. The only skill required to comprehend what is in fact written amounts to basic human language comprehension skills which most humans come equipped with after learning to read and write. So It is fallacy to claim it requires interpreting of some kind. Yet, over and over, people— pastors, and mogs in particular — continue to propose ridiculous delusions as interpretations. And these flawed interpretations— built atop flawed logic from the minds of the so-called theologians — are what many are used to, and not what is in fact contained in the book itself.

MaxInDHouse:


Hmmmmmmmmmmmm, i love hearing this!

God wants to guide mankind so we can enjoy life to the fullest {Isaiah 48:17-18} but then His messages must be coded due to the presence of fallen angels everywhere people live God has separated those fallen angels from the gathering of His loyal spirit sons {2Peter 2:4; Jude 1:6} so they're not permitted to receive any information about the future they only know that they will be exterminated but how? They don't know. That's why they're always trying to know through the mouth of God's servants because God use His Holy Spirit to speaks to His worshipers through the mouth of His servants! 1Peter 1:12

This means that most of the information found in God's word will be coded {Daniel 13:10-13} until God dispense His Holy Spirit unto faithful Jews {Joel 2:18 compare to Act 2:16-18} and they will have to pass the messages to those who deserve it.

Even when Jesus walked the earth he still kept those messages in coded form {Matthew 13:13} but whenever he noticed that he's only with his trusted friends he speaks plainly. Matthew 13:11

So back to your question!

After the death of Jesus' first century Jewish disciples Satan quickly established falsehood {Matthew 13:25} and his agents became the frontiers all over the place claiming they're Christians with big religious titles which Jesus has warned against {Matthew 23:8-10} so God's Holy Spirit left the churches and guessing took place everywhere as most religious leaders were coming up with different doctrines all in the name of Christ.

But the truth is only the humble people who doesn't allow religious titles to blur their senses will be backed by God's Holy Spirit {Matthew 18:4} and their understanding of God's word will be like the gradual brightness of daylight {Proverbs 4:18} as the spirit grants them understanding they mustn't allow pride to make them feel they've become perfect instead they should be ready to admit their errors and make amendment wherever it's needed in their doctrines!

So the Bible is perfect but it's imperfect humans that must humbly welcome updating of our understanding of God's word since the info was coded for Satan, his demons and their human agents never to understand.

For your information that's why most people are always looking forward to what JWs will say regarding the end of the world. Satan and his demons knew very well that this organization is the one and only group of imperfect humans God is directing but their agents don't know why they must always question JWs over doctrines when there is well over 41,000 different sects with contradicting teachings and conflicting doctrines all claiming denominations in Christendom!

Why does this look like someone trying to market a religious organization as it were?

@ litigator don't tell me your not familiar with the changing doctrines and dogma of this religious organization at least you admitted you have had contacts with them previously


The question was WHY DO THEY CHANGE? Light getting brighter goes completely dark regarding Joel chapter +/- 2 years ago. Another change on John 5:28,29 last year repeated change regarding Romans 13. Why do they change?

litigator:
I can’t help but wonder why the changes in church doctrines and dogmas if they are biblical?

The Bible hasn’t changed since I was young Sunday student and in primary 3. But I can’t count the numbers of church doctrines and dogmas that have changed over the years.

When these doctrines and dogmas were been proposed and propounded, we were meant to understand that they were biblical.

The propounders often quoted biblical passages to support their position and threatened hell fire in the absence of compliance.

Few years down the road, these doctrines and dogmas have either been modified or changed completely.

The devil’s box that was devilish and one thing that could send people to hell, no longer sends people to hell.

And this makes me wonder what happened?

Did the church management simply misrepresented facts using Bible passages as a back up?

Are these doctrines and dogmas actually biblical?

Are they just psychological conditioning tools and not biblical per se?

What do you think?

Doctrines are not supposed to change. But they do because ministers later discover truth that were not revealed to them before.

Second, they do, the moment you stop building your doctrines on the law of Moses which has been abolished.

Doctrines will hardly change when you stick to the teachings of our Lord Jesus and his Apostles.

Ken4Christ:


Ken4Christ @9:51pm, 2nd January,2023.
Doctrines are not supposed to change. But they do because ministers later discover truth that were not revealed to them before.

Second, they do, the moment you stop building your doctrines on the law of Moses which has been abolished.

Doctrines will hardly change when you stick to the teachings of our Lord Jesus and his Apostles.

Noted.
1 Corinthians 13:9 & 2 Corinthians 13:9, IYKYK.
The disciples doctrine of1 Corinthians 15:12
MUST CHANGE in the spirit of 2 Corinthians 13:9 & 1 Corinthians 13:9.

@Litigator

1. Before the world began, the Word[a] was there. The Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was there with God in the beginning.
3 Everything was made through him, and nothing was made without him.
4 In him there was life, and that life was a light for the people of the world.
5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not defeated[c] it.
6 There was a man named John, who was sent by God.
7 He came to tell people about the light. Through him all people could hear about the light and believe.
8 John was not the light. But he came to tell people about the light.
9 The true light was coming into the world. This is the true light that gives light to all people.
10 The Word was already in the world. The world was made through him, but the world did not know him.
11 He came to the world that was his own. And his own people did not accept him.
12 But some people did accept him. They believed in him, and he gave them the right to become children of God.
13 They became God’s children, but not in the way babies are usually born. It was not because of any human desire or plan. They were born from God himself. - John 1 vs 1 - 13

This is one of the references the other posted earlier in his attempt to suggest that the woman who was considered a dog was not naturally born. The reference along with His conclusion of course got me wondering what in the world he was talking about.

The passage above clearly explains that the Sons of God are not born via natural means such as we know of in this world — the way babies are usually born— ,but are instead individuals transformed by their relationship with Jesus Christ — described as being born from God Himself.

Kobojunkie:
@Litigator
This is one of the references the other posted earlier in his attempt to suggest that the woman who was considered a dog was not naturally born. The reference along with His conclusion of course got me wondering what in the world he was talking about.

The passage above clearly explains that the Sons of God are not born via natural means such as we know of in this world — the way babies are usually born— ,but are instead individuals transformed by their relationship with Jesus Christ — described as being born from God Himself.

But some people did accept him. They believed in him, and he gave them the right to become children of God.13 They became God’s children, but not in the way babies are usually born. It was not because of any human desire or plan. They were born from God himself.

He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”25 The woman came and knelt before him. “Lord, help me!” she said.26 He replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.”27 “Yes it is, Lord,” she said. “Even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their master’s table.”
28 Then Jesus said to her, “Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.” And her daughter was healed at that moment.


You have already stated the DOGS BENEFIT. Who are the children? Who are the dogs? The children are children of who?

Are the DOGS natural descents of the children?

Kobojunkie:
1. You find the same pattern wherever you find religion. So, this isn't in any way unique to the Christian religion. Religion is a system that is built on doctrines and traditions conjured up in the minds of men and designed by men with the intention of wielding authority and power over the minds and lives of their fellow men.
So naturally, it follows that there will be many interpretations as each sect will work to dominate its own base using its own version of the template.

How is the Bible or any other religious text exempt from what you wrote?
Are they also conjured up in the minds of men and designed by men?
The Bible as the template is a good example of your final point seeing the myriad of interpretations including yours.

Kobojunkie:
@Litigator
This is one of the references the other posted earlier in his attempt to suggest that the woman who was considered a dog was not naturally born. The reference along with His conclusion of course got me wondering what in the world he was talking about.

The passage above clearly explains that the Sons of God are not born via natural means such as we know of in this world — the way babies are usually born— ,but are instead individuals transformed by their relationship with Jesus Christ — described as being born from God Himself.

The word dog should ordinarily connote an "Unbeliever" .

I was used as a metaphor I suppose.

Acts 15: 17

And so all the rest of the human race will come to Me, all the Gentiles whom I have called to be My own.

The second part further describes the first part. The Gentiles whom God calls to be his own refers to the rest of the human race who were not a part of His original Testament with the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Kobojunkie:
You also shouldn't ignore the second part of that statement which indicate that only those He calls are expected to come to Him and who are they called from every tribe, every tongue, and every nation, back to God? The lost sheep of Israel whom God Himself cursed and scattered to all the four winds of the earth - Deuteronomy 30 vs 1 - 16 & Isaiah 66 vs 18 - 22 & Revelations 5 vs 9 - 10 & Exodus 19 vs 6.
Not everyone is called...

litigator:
The word dog should ordinarily connote an "Unbeliever" .
I was used as a metaphor I suppose.

It instead used in reference to non-israelites - Matthew 15 vs 21 - 28

BornKiller:
Acts 15: 17And so all the rest of the human race will come to Me, all the Gentiles whom I have called to be My own.

The second part further describes the first part. The Gentiles whom God calls to be his own refers to the rest of the human race who were not a part of His original Testament with the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Try to process what is written there in that verse. That verse tells you that All the rest of the human race are divided into two groups by Him. All the rest of the human race whom He has called by His own(Jesus Christ) implies there are those among all rest of the human race whom He has not called by His own(Jesus Christ).

■And so who are those whom He has called by His own(Jesus Christ)?
■And so who are those whom He has not called by His own(Jesus Christ)?

achorladey:
He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”25 The woman came and knelt before him. “Lord, help me!” she said.26 He replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.”27 “Yes it is, Lord,” she said. “Even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their master’s table.”
28 Then Jesus said to her, “Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.” And her daughter was healed at that moment.

You have already stated the DOGS BENEFIT. Who are the children? Who are the dogs? The children are children of who?
Are the DOGS natural descents of the children?

What dogs have to do with what is clearly documented in John 1 vs 1 - 13, you would need to explain to me because I have absolutely no idea how or why you keep trying to inject that into that context.

Read Matthew 15 vs 21 - 28 to learn of how the dogs — the non-Israelites — benefit from the crumbs that fall to them from the master's table, this while keeping in mind that Jesus Christ decreed that that which is holy not be given to the dogs - Matthew 7 vs 6.

Kobojunkiee:
What dogs have to do with what is clearly documented in John 1 vs 1 - 13, you would need to explain to me because I have absolutely no idea how or why you keep trying to inject that into that context.

Read Matthew 15 vs 21 - 28 to learn of how the dogs — the non-Israelites — benefit from the crumbs that fall to them from the master's table, this while keeping in mind that Jesus Christ decreed that that which is holy not be given to the dogs - Matthew 7 vs 6.

The key here “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.” = children

Dogs = non-Israelite

You added

the non-Israelites — benefit from the crumbs that fall to them from the master's table, this while keeping in mind that Jesus Christ decreed that that which is holy not be given to the dogs

From Matthew 15: 28......

Then Jesus said to her, “Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.” And her daughter was healed at that moment.

The question becomes......

How did what you call DECREED by Jesus regarding not giving what is HOLY TO DOGS became something to be BENEFITED by DOGS in the case of this woman? Did you ever reasoned that whenever those he CALLED DOGS values what is HOLY, what will Jesus do in such a case?

I am surprised you even use DECREED

achorladey:
The key here “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.” = children

Dogs = non-Israelite

You added
From Matthew 15: 28......

Then Jesus said to her, “Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.” And her daughter was healed at that moment.

The question becomes......

How did what you call DECREED by Jesus regarding not giving what is HOLY TO DOGS became something to be BENEFITED by DOGS in the case of this woman? Did you ever reasoned that whenever those he CALLED DOGS values what is HOLY, what will Jesus do in such a case?

Your question still doesn't make sense!

▪︎Jesus Christ made clear in that passage that God's agreement --- that which is Holy--- which gives mercy aka salvation belongs only to those descended from Israel, this as the woman had initially asked Jesus Christ to have mercy on her.
▪︎ The passage clearly informs you that the woman herself regarded the healing she got from Jesus Christ as crumbs which fall from the master's table to the dogs.

So what part of that remains unclear to you?

Kobojunkie:
Your question still doesn't make sense!

▪︎Jesus Christ made clear in that passage that God's agreement --- that which is Holy--- which gives mercy aka salvation belongs only to those descended from Israel, this as the woman had initially asked Jesus Christ to have mercy on her.
▪︎ The passage clearly informs you that the woman herself regarded the healing she got from Jesus Christ as crumbs which fall from the master's table to the dogs.

So what part of that remains unclear to you?

I have told you earlier, what I needed from you I have it already. You already stated earlier the woman benefited and you know who the woman is.

achorladey:
I have told you earlier, what I needed from you I have it already. You already stated earlier the woman benefited and you know who the woman is.

I am not certain what any of this is meant to mean.

Kobojunkie:
I am not certain what any of this is meant to mean.

And I know you know what bread crumbs are too as it relates to bread.

achorladey:
And I know you know what bread crumbs are too as it relates to bread.

I have absolutely no clue what you are talking about.

Now your'e just clutching at straws because when He says all the rest of the human race, it simply means all those who did not have a covenant with Yaweh under the Old Testament which existed between Yaweh and the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

The fact is that under the New Testament, there is no longer any distinction based on ancestry.

Colossians 3.11
As a result, there is no longer any distinction between Gentiles and Jews, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarians, savages, slaves, and free, but Christ is all, Christ is in all.


Acts 15: 17 And so all the rest of the human race will come to Me, all the Gentiles whom I have called to be My own.

Kobojunkie:
Try to process what is written there in that verse. That verse tells you that All the rest of the human race are divided into two groups by Him. All the rest of the human race whom He has called by His own(Jesus Christ) implies there are those among all rest of the human race whom He has not called by His own(Jesus Christ).

■And so who are those whom He has called by His own(Jesus Christ)?
■And so who are those whom He has not called by His own(Jesus Christ)?

BornKiller:
Now your'e just clutching at straws because when He says all the rest of the human race, it simply means all those who did not have a covenant with Yaweh under the Old Testament which existed between Yaweh and the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

The fact is that under the New Testament, there is no longer any distinction based on ancestry.

Colossians 3.11
As a result, there is no longer any distinction between Gentiles and Jews, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarians, savages, slaves, and free, but Christ is all, Christ is in all.

Acts 15: 17 And so all the rest of the human race will come to Me, all the Gentiles whom I have called to be My own.

The answer to this has already been provided to you in even your last post. Stop using the keyword search and start using the understanding you have.

The Kingdom of God belongs to Jesus Christ, so surely you know you can't let in that which Jesus Christ does not allow. So why do you keep assuming that by using keyword search, you can somehow get around His Law in His own Kingdom?

You didn't provide an answer, so I'll keep asking it. Your entire position is that when it comes to the salvation offered by Christ, there is a distinction between Gentiles and Jews. So what does this Scripture mean?

Colossians 3.11
As a result, there is no longer any distinction between Gentiles and Jews, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarians, savages, slaves, and free, but Christ is all, Christ is in all.

Kobojunkie:
The answer to this has already been provided to you in even your last post. Stop using the keyword search and start using the understanding you have.

The Kingdom of God belongs to Jesus Christ, so surely you know you can't let in that which Jesus Christ does not allow. So why do you keep assuming that by using keyword search, you can somehow get around His Law in His own Kingdom?

BornKiller:
You didn't provide an answer, so I'll keep asking it. Your entire position is that when it comes to the salvation offered by Christ, there is a distinction between Gentiles and Jews. So what does this Scripture mean?

Colossians 3.11
As a result, there is no longer any distinction between Gentiles and Jews, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarians, savages, slaves, and free, but Christ is all, Christ is in all.

Again, The answer to this has already been provided to you in even your last post. Stop using the keyword search and start using the understanding you have.

The Kingdom of God belongs to Jesus Christ, so surely you know you can't let in that which Jesus Christ does not allow. So why do you keep assuming that by using keyword search, you can somehow get around His Law in His own Kingdom?