TenQ:

Of course water wets Objects: probably you don't understand what ChatGPT was saying.

You were of the opinion that

"So, get it straight, wetness EMERGES when molecules of water are acting in concert with one another, wetness does not exist in the molecules of water."

This is very wrong

Water wets Objects!

There is no dry water!

LMAO Chatgpt is wrong because it contradicts what you believe? Bwahahahahahaha!

LordReed:


Ok.

Mind as far as we know is the emergent property of the workings of the brain and other parts of the body, It is real and somewhat measurable in that the impulses the brain produces correspond to states of mind that are similar in all individuals. Can your exact thoughts be viewed externally? No but the state of you mind always matches particular brain scan/imaging patterns that can be viewed.

I regard mind as an emergent property, too, but not from the workings of the brain and other parts of the body. Such a notion is superficial and will always be problematic; historically, it has done little to resolve the mind-body problem.

It's better to regard mind as an emergent property of fundamental consciousness as explained in the Four-Layer Architecture or FLA model proposed by the same scientist I mentioned earlier, which postulates four architectural layers of consciousness (see attached pictures).

Without incorporating consciousness into our models of Physics, Chalmers' hard problems of consciousness will never be solved, and we'll never be able to understand mind deeply and measure it.

Many scientists (myself inclusive) are working on incorporating consciousness into our models of Physics, especially the Standard Model. It's the way forward.

Check out some relevant papers and books on the current scientific progress on consciousness research:
1. https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Karl-Sipfle/publication/364708467_Consciousness_the_Full_Stack_Four-Layer_ArchitectureLanguage_on_Mind_on_STFC_Part_1_of_4_An_SSRN_Top_Ten_download/links/6357dc5796e83c26eb527c05/Consciousness-the-Full-Stack-Four-Layer-ArchitectureLanguage-on-Mind-on-STFC-Part-1-of-4-An-SSRN-Top-Ten-download.pdf
2. https://osf.io/6b3qw/download
3. https://icmacyfoundation.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/Consciousness_and_the_Universe__Quantum_Ph_-_Roger_Penrose.pdf

I may share links to my own papers too later.

LordReed:


LMAO Chatgpt is wrong because it contradicts what you believe? Bwahahahahahaha!

No sir.

You were the one who did NOT comprehend what ChatGPT was saying.

According to your ChatGPT attachment, Wetness was defined in terms of ability to
1. Ability of a substance to adhere to another surface and create a film on it
2. Polar water molecules forming hydrogen bond on the surface in question
3. This property is NOT intrinsic to the water molecules itself, but rather emerges from the interaction between water molecules and other molecules in the environment


Please read the last sentence of your ChatGPT attachment and dispute about it as usual.

You should laugh at yourself

TenQ:

No sir.

You were the one who did NOT comprehend what ChatGPT was saying.

According to your ChatGPT attachment, Wetness was defined in terms of ability to
1. Ability of a substance to adhere to another surface and create a film on it
2. Polar water molecules forming hydrogen bond on the surface in question
3. This property is NOT intrinsic to the water molecules itself, but rather emerges from the interaction between water molecules and other molecules in the environment


Please read the last sentence of your ChatGPT attachment and dispute about it as usual.

You should laugh at yourself

Count how many times I bolded the word EMERGES in my previous posts. I did that because that is the operative word and idea I am passing across.

LordReed:


That is telling you that wetness EMERGES from interaction. It is not a property of water molecules themselves.

Added a chatgpt result for your consideration.

The ' chatgpt result' doesn't fully support your explanation.



If a surface is coated with grease, 'wetness' cannot emerge when water comes in contact with it, meaning that water on its own cannot emerge 'wetness'

A001:

I regard mind as an emergent property, too, but not from the workings of the brain and other parts of the body. Such a notion is superficial and will always be problematic; historically, it has done little to resolve the mind-body problem.

It's better to regard mind as an emergent property of fundamental consciousness as explained in the Four-Layer Architecture or FLA model proposed by the same scientist I mentioned earlier, which postulates four architectural layers of consciousness (see attached pictures).

Without incorporating consciousness into our models of Physics, Chalmers' hard problems of consciousness will never be solved, and we'll never be able to understand mind deeply and measure it.

Many scientists (myself inclusive) are working on incorporating consciousness into our models of Physics, especially the Standard Model. It's the way forward.

Check out some relevant papers and books on the current scientific progress on consciousness research:
1. https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Karl-Sipfle/publication/364708467_Consciousness_the_Full_Stack_Four-Layer_ArchitectureLanguage_on_Mind_on_STFC_Part_1_of_4_An_SSRN_Top_Ten_download/links/6357dc5796e83c26eb527c05/Consciousness-the-Full-Stack-Four-Layer-ArchitectureLanguage-on-Mind-on-STFC-Part-1-of-4-An-SSRN-Top-Ten-download.pdf
2. https://osf.io/6b3qw/download
3. https://icmacyfoundation.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/Consciousness_and_the_Universe__Quantum_Ph_-_Roger_Penrose.pdf

I may share links to my own papers too later.

What is the mind-body problem?

triplechoice:


The ' chatgpt result' doesn't fully support your explanation.



If a surface is coated with grease, 'wetness' cannot emerge when water comes in contact with it, meaning that water on its own cannot emerge 'wetness'

The point is, since you are getting lost in the weeds, wetness EMERGES, it is not an intrinsic property of any of the interacting components.

LordReed:


What is the mind-body problem?

The mind-body problem: A longstanding question in philosophy examining the relationship between the mind and the body, or more specifically, the relationship between mental phenomena and physical phenomena. The mind-body problem raises fundamental inquiries about the nature of consciousness, subjective experience, and their connection to the physical world.

For an overview, check this out: https://www.blackwellpublishing.com/content/bpl_images/content_store/sample_chapter/0631217746%5Cstich-001.pdf

A001:

I regard mind as an emergent property, too, but not from the workings of the brain and other parts of the body. Such a notion is superficial and will always be problematic; historically, it has done little to resolve the mind-body problem.

It's better to regard mind as an emergent property of fundamental consciousness as explained in the Four-Layer Architecture or FLA model proposed by the same scientist I mentioned earlier, which postulates four architectural layers of consciousness (see attached pictures).

Without incorporating consciousness into our models of Physics, Chalmers' hard problems of consciousness will never be solved, and we'll never be able to understand mind deeply and measure it.

Many scientists (myself inclusive) are working on incorporating consciousness into our models of Physics, especially the Standard Model. It's the way forward.

Check out some relevant papers and books on the current scientific progress on consciousness research:
1. https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Karl-Sipfle/publication/364708467_Consciousness_the_Full_Stack_Four-Layer_ArchitectureLanguage_on_Mind_on_STFC_Part_1_of_4_An_SSRN_Top_Ten_download/links/6357dc5796e83c26eb527c05/Consciousness-the-Full-Stack-Four-Layer-ArchitectureLanguage-on-Mind-on-STFC-Part-1-of-4-An-SSRN-Top-Ten-download.pdf
2. https://osf.io/6b3qw/download
3. https://icmacyfoundation.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/Consciousness_and_the_Universe__Quantum_Ph_-_Roger_Penrose.pdf

I may share links to my own papers too later.

I have a problem with your last link. Roger Penrose is a mathematician why would I look to him for expertise in neuroscience or even psychology?

LordReed:


I have a problem with your last link. Roger Penrose is a mathematician why would I look to him for expertise in neuroscience or even psychology?

He's a mathematician and theoretical physicist. He's primarily a physicist, and that book is one of the best materials you can find presently to gain a scientific understanding of the latest progress made on consciousness research.

Besides, he co-authored the book with several other scientists, especially neuroscientists like Stuart Hameroff.

LordReed:


The point is, since you are getting lost in the weeds, wetness EMERGES, it is not an intrinsic property of any of the interacting components.

. You already made it clear initially that wetness' only emerges when molecules of water are interacting with one another. You are confusing us

LordReed:


So, get it straight, wetness EMERGES when molecules of water are acting in concert with one another, 'wetness does not exist in the molecules of water.

A001:

The mind-body problem: A longstanding question in philosophy examining the relationship between the mind and the body, or more specifically, the relationship between mental phenomena and physical phenomena. The mind-body problem raises fundamental inquiries about the nature of consciousness, subjective experience, and their connection to the physical world.

For an overview, check this out: https://www.blackwellpublishing.com/content/bpl_images/content_store/sample_chapter/0631217746%5Cstich-001.pdf

For me the question is resolved by understanding that the mind emerges from the functioning of the body, there is no dualism at play here (as far as I am concerned). I think it is people who are trying to reconcile a dualistic view of mind and body that have the problem.

LordReed:


For me the question is resolved by understanding that the mind emerges from the functioning of the body, there is no dualism at play here (as far as I am concerned). I think it is people who are trying to reconcile a dualistic view of mind and body that have the problem.

And where does the functioning of the body emerge from? I don't know how you want to rule out consciousness sha.

And I hope you're not making the mistake of thinking complexity yields consciousness.

triplechoice:


. You already made it clear initially that wetness' only emerges when molecules of water are interacting with one another. You are confusing us

I guess my explanation was incomplete but you guys seem to getting sidetracked by the omission, What is being conveyed, very succinctly, is wetness EMERGES, it is not an intrinsic property of water.

A001:

And where does the functioning of the body emerge from? I don't know how you want to rule out consciousness sha.

And I hope you're not making the mistake of thinking complexity yields consciousness.

What do you mean by where does the functioning of the body emerge from? The body emerges from an embryo. Are saying an embryo has consciousness?

LordReed:


What do you mean by where does the functioning of the boy emerge from? The body emerges from an embryo. Are saying an embryo has consciousness?

I expected you to at least read those materials above to update your knowledge on consciousness. Your views on the subject are getting obsolete.

You assume you understand what you're arguing about, but you don't have the slightest idea.

I think I've said enough on the subject. I've a lot on my table.

A001:

I expected you to at least read those materials above to update your knowledge on consciousness. Your views on the subject are getting obsolete.

You assume you understand what you're arguing about, but you don't have the slightest idea.

I think I've said enough on the subject. I've a lot on my table.

LoLz! Ah, it's ok, I don't have strength for baseless arguments either.

LordReed:


For me the question is resolved by understanding that the mind emerges from the functioning of the body, there is no dualism at play here (as far as I am concerned). I think it is people who are trying to reconcile a dualistic view of mind and body that have the problem.

Before you start blaming anyone, first of all ,explain clearly how mind has emerged from the brain, and the other body parts you mentioned.


The claim that mind is an emergent property of brain function is based on Sperry's concept of mind.

It doesn't find full scientific support yet. It's speculatory theory at this point in time, and nothing more.

But you keep repeating it everywhere as fact, or something that has been conclusively proven to be true.

There is no general consensus in the sciences on how mind has emerged. Nobody knows or can explain it in the sciences

LordReed:


I guess my explanation was incomplete but you guys seem to getting sidetracked by the omission, What is being conveyed, very succinctly, is wetness EMERGES, it is not an intrinsic property of water.

It was why I drew your attention to it so as to remove the confusion

triplechoice:


Before you start blaming anyone, first of all ,explain clearly how mind has emerged from the brain, and the other body parts you mentioned.


The claim that mind is an emergent property of brain function is based on Sperry's concept of mind.

It doesn't find full scientific support yet. It's speculatory theory at this point in time, and nothing more.

But you keep repeating it everywhere as fact, or something that has been conclusively proven to be true.

There is no general consensus in the sciences on how mind has emerged. Nobody knows or can explain it in the sciences

I am not blaming anybody. I just read up on mind body problem and dualism being the "sufferer" of the problem was one of my take aways.

I will take time to outline my position tomorrow.

triplechoice:


It was why I drew your attention to it so as to remove the confusion

Ah, ok. Gracias.

LordReed:



Count how many times I bolded the word EMERGES in my previous posts. I did that because that is the operative word and idea I am passing across.

It is not just about the word EMERGES but UNDERSTANDING how it is used and why it was used. This negates everything you've been saying. Anyone with a little understanding of surface tension sees how problematic your understanding is.
1.

LordReed:

No, I am saying mind is an emergent property.

Which doesn't make sense

2.

LordReed:

The wetness of water is an emergent property. Meaning wetness doesn't exist by itself, how can water be wet since wetness cannot be quantified, how can it be said to exist?

The problem is that you don't understand the concept of Wetness

3.

LordReed:

The wetness of water is an emergent property because H2O molecules themselves are not wet in fact you need at least 6 molecules of water before that property of wetness becomes apparent. So, get it straight, wetness EMERGES when molecules of water are acting in concert with one another, wetness does not exist in the molecules of water.

There is no property of water that is an emergent property especially Wetness

4.

TenQ:

Dictionary definition
Wetness:
consisting of, containing, covered with, or soaked with liquid (such as water)

Wetness is an adjective to describe a state when an OBJECT is coated with water.

It is nonsensical to say wet water except if you can have dry water.
Why?
In a general definition of wetness Water is the "only" liquid that makes an object WET!

Is there any situation when a pool of water is wet? No!

Here I give you some definitions for the sake of comprehension .


It's not a crime to misunderstand science. Even me have to keep quiet when experts in certain fields of science are speaking.

I am not happy because what would have been an interesting conversation has been digressed into what is not necessary.







The Question of pounder is:
1. Is the Mind Real or it's just chemicals acting on biological matter?
2. If the Mind is real can it be measured?
3. If the mind is just chemicals acting on matter, then it may not be real. It is just a symptom of chemicals acting on biological matter.

A001:

I regard mind as an emergent property, too, but not from the workings of the brain and other parts of the body. Such a notion is superficial and will always be problematic; historically, it has done little to resolve the mind-body problem.

It's better to regard mind as an emergent property of fundamental consciousness as explained in the Four-Layer Architecture or FLA model proposed by the same scientist I mentioned earlier, which postulates four architectural layers of consciousness (see attached pictures).

Without incorporating consciousness into our models of Physics, Chalmers' hard problems of consciousness will never be solved, and we'll never be able to understand mind deeply and measure it.

Many scientists (myself inclusive) are working on incorporating consciousness into our models of Physics, especially the Standard Model. It's the way forward.

Check out some relevant papers and books on the current scientific progress on consciousness research:
1. https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Karl-Sipfle/publication/364708467_Consciousness_the_Full_Stack_Four-Layer_ArchitectureLanguage_on_Mind_on_STFC_Part_1_of_4_An_SSRN_Top_Ten_download/links/6357dc5796e83c26eb527c05/Consciousness-the-Full-Stack-Four-Layer-ArchitectureLanguage-on-Mind-on-STFC-Part-1-of-4-An-SSRN-Top-Ten-download.pdf
2. https://osf.io/6b3qw/download
3. https://icmacyfoundation.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/Consciousness_and_the_Universe__Quantum_Ph_-_Roger_Penrose.pdf

I may share links to my own papers too later.

Speaking about Mind and Consciousness, do you think it would be possible to simulate consciousness and the mind without giving the computer the power of Irritability?

Example:
If I cannot have Experiences (feelings) of events near me, how can I choose what experiences I like and the one I don't like?

If I cannot choose logically between good and bad EXPERIENCES, how can I make choices for the preferred experience?


A human being many times chooses to eat Bitter Kola instead of Sweets which go against normal logic. This is what make us conscious mindful Beings! This choice is not random. A human being sometimes make sacrifices over no apparent personal gain.

TenQ:

It is not just about the word EMERGES but UNDERSTANDING how it is used and why it was used. This negates everything you've been saying. Anyone with a little understanding of surface tension sees how problematic your understanding is.
1.
Which doesn't make sense

2.
The problem is that you don't understand the concept of Wetness

3.
There is no property of water that is an emergent property especially Wetness

4.
Here I give you some definitions for the sake of comprehension .


It's not a crime to misunderstand science. Even me have to keep quiet when experts in certain fields of science are speaking.

I am not happy because what would have been an interesting conversation has been digressed into what is not necessary.







The Question of pounder is:
1. Is the Mind Real or it's just chemicals acting on biological matter?
2. If the Mind is real can it be measured?
3. If the mind is just chemicals acting on matter, then it may not be real. It is just a symptom of chemicals acting on biological matter.

LMAO! Here we go again with the rigmarole. Not going to engage in that with you. You brought Chatgpt and gave you a Chatgpt explanation clearly showing how wetness is an emergent property but you can argue with yourself if you wish, certainly not with me.

triplechoice:


Before you start blaming anyone, first of all ,explain clearly how mind has emerged from the brain, and the other body parts you mentioned.


The claim that mind is an emergent property of brain function is based on Sperry's concept of mind.

It doesn't find full scientific support yet. It's speculatory theory at this point in time, and nothing more.

But you keep repeating it everywhere as fact, or something that has been conclusively proven to be true.

There is no general consensus in the sciences on how mind has emerged. Nobody knows or can explain it in the sciences

It seems the Mind (ability to store and process information) depends on feeling such as hunger, thirst, heat, fear , lust etc

These are feelings that are not registered in our biological frame (our body).

This gives the impression that we have two bodies
1. The Physical Body:
Where we experience pain, tickle, brightness/sight, coldness, loudness etc
2. Non physical Body,:
Where we experience fear, joy, sadness, lust, despair, courage. etc

Of course, there can be overlap between the senses.

What is common to both is that they are not functions of thought, thinking or rationalising

They may have to do with our previous experiences sometimes: eg. Some certain PHOBIAS may be developed as a result of past experiences with snakes, dogs, darkness, water etc.


I think it is mundane to assume that the mind is just a function of chemicals reacting with cranial matters.

LordReed:


LMAO! Here we go again with the rigmarole. Not going to engage in that with you. You brought Chatgpt and gave you a Chatgpt explanation clearly showing how wetness is an emergent property but you can argue with yourself if you wish, certainly not with me.

Move on bro!
Your understanding of "Emergent" was wrong even with your ChatGPT poster. I spelt it out for you.

Move on: it cost you nothing to do so!

TenQ:

Move on bro!
Your understanding of "Emergent" was wrong even with your ChatGPT poster. I spelt it out for you.

Move on: it cost you nothing to do so!

Indeed.

LordReed:


I think it is people who are trying to reconcile a dualistic view of mind and body that have the problem.

They should resolve their problem by locating the mind that is independent of a body. Lol

TenQ:

Move on bro!
Your understanding of "Emergent" was wrong even with your ChatGPT poster. I spelt it out for you.

Move on: it cost you nothing to do so!

No need for this kind of talk. Nobody knows it all. We can learn from each other as we continue to discuss the topic.

Since you created the thread, I advise you accommodate anything anyone has to contribute in order to keep the conversation going peacefully without quarrell.

KnownUnknown:


They should resolve their problem by locating the mind that is independent of a body. Lol

Na dia agbada don hook for nail. LoLz.

triplechoice:


Before you start blaming anyone, first of all ,explain clearly how mind has emerged from the brain, and the other body parts you mentioned.


The claim that mind is an emergent property of brain function is based on Sperry's concept of mind.

It doesn't find full scientific support yet. It's speculatory theory at this point in time, and nothing more.

But you keep repeating it everywhere as fact, or something that has been conclusively proven to be true.

There is no general consensus in the sciences on how mind has emerged. Nobody knows or can explain it in the sciences

On second thought I am not sure I need to write a treatise on this matter again since I already responded to it at length. Check out my responses to Deepsight from the following post onwards:
https://www.nairaland.com/6908566/boy-dead-20-minutes-what/5#109239457

LordReed:


On second thought I am not sure I need to write a treatise on this matter again since I already responded to it at length. Check out my responses to Deepsight from the following post onwards:
https://www.nairaland.com/6908566/boy-dead-20-minutes-what/5#109239457

I will take my time to respond to that. Don't want to rush it.

But in the meantime, I hope you are aware your explanations in that post doesnt have full scientific backing.