I think both sides of the argument have points, but again the main let down here is the Government, once again. I often challenge a lot of my good friend who are top consultants in the UK and US to return back home and help, but believe me the story is not as straightforward as we all think.

Good friend (Top doctor), returns home to go give his time (6months) free of charge to help introduce and imprive better working practices. Within 4 weeks of the good work he was doing in a top University teaching hospital, he got summoned in by one of the senior managers and was told to not to and mess with thier tactics. and in the process they tried to fustrate him, he just packed his things are retruned back to the US.

Yes the money in medicine is good, but most would tell you they would want an environment where they can have a fullfilling career with great prospect for progression.

''Under option 2, Doctors will have a high level of certainty of entry through Tier 2 General[font=Lucida Sans Unicode][/font]. The relatively low salary of nurses will afford them a lower priority under Tier 2 General; however, nursing will be a graduate only occupation in England by 2013 when it will be a requirement of registration as a nurse that the worker holds a degree. In addition, some nurses are currently classified as shortage occupations – these include specialist nurses working in operating theatres, operating department practitioners, and specialist nurses working in neonatal intensive care units. Those occupations on the shortage list will be given priority under the limit. We estimate that no nurses or doctors will be prevented from coming to the UK compared to the counterfactual case; all nursing assistants and auxiliaries would be prevented from entering as these are not classified as graduate level jobs.''


Emphasis on the boldened part.I took the excerpt above from the UK border agency immigration impact assesment report. This is despite all the tightening of immigration laws in the UK.
Doctors are still in demand, it is obvious that as long as the situation remains unsatisfactory for doctors back home and the demand exists in a better structured society, the massive migration will continue.


http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitecontent/documents/policyandlaw/ia/migration-perm-limit-pbs/ia-pbs-t1-t2.pdf?view=Binary

SEFAGO:

My fackbuddy Tpia is correct.

I love the way Kobojunkie repost her statements like they are the word of God. Talk about misguided confidence. Posting straight from salary.com without placing it in the right context.

Straight out med school during residency you get paid crap- like around 50,000 dollars a year and you work 80 hours week then when you finish residency your salary goes up. Doctors make the bulk of their money in their 30s when they have finished the residency thingy. You get the 80K probably after residency.


http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_much_money_does_a_doctor_earn_during_their_residency

Tpia is rocking the debate clearly. I am shocked mehn all the kondo I have been giving her is just making her smarter and smarter.

You dont go and become a doctor to be rich. When you go into medicine you should know what you are going into.

Getting into an MBChB/MBBS in Nigeria is hard and getting the degree is hard. It might be heavy on theory but well that's like everything in Nigeria Its not the same as getting a standard degree from Nigerian university. You cannot "sex" for it.

The guys I know who went to medical school in Nigeria will smoke you academically mehn some of them had like 8A1 in WAEC and were teh best of the best in Nigeria. They dont even need to go through any curriculum.

Regardless when are you gonna go out with me?

50,000 a year is crap? wetin we no go hear for nl?

sefago please do tell, are doctors not among the highest paid professionals in the us?

are they not the only ones who have more or less passed through the meltdown unscathed?

before obj, do you have any idea what house offices were earning in nigeria? its better now, but still not that high.

its really sad to see this nigerian mentality which is the same way we look at teachers. a doctor should not be able to send his kids to good schools? they should live hand to mouth?

As usual, Ekt is here analyzing a terrain he hardly understands.

If you are a doctor and you practise in Naija then you need help. You really need help, then.


My brother trained abroad (scholarship). Immediately he completed his programme, he returned to Nigeria. It was a horrible experience for the whole family (as we were so hopeful that having a doctor in the family would end our financial worries). But, this na Naija. And, that's when it dawned on me that Nigeria was beyond redemption.

He wasted 3 years serving his fatherland. From the exam meant for all foreign-trained doctors (he did his in Kaduna) to housemanship and NYSC. It was horrible, he suffered so much as we did not have any money. He's only brilliant enough to gain this scholarship. But, he persevered.  However, what followed was horrible!

During his housemanship, he was given a room full of bed bugs. He couldn't stay there.

Then when it was time for full employment, he passed the test conducted by the General Hospital in Lagos. He was invited to there useless interview and that's where he discovered that Nigeria was useless beyond redemption.

My parents gave birth to him when they were living in Lagos (the only one born in Lagos among us). The interviewers asked him to name his compound (imagine that) in Lagos, he told them he was only born in Lagos and not a Lagosian apart from his birth certificate. That was there main question at this interview meant for doctors . Eventually, they didn't give him the job.
Meanwhile, a friend (also a doctor) of his did not write the test conducted but his brother was a member of the House of Assembly, Lagos. And, he was sent a letter of employment - no test no interview oooo .

My brother continued to practise privately, surviving practically on d and cs for girls and women.

He got tired of the system and returned abroad. Today, he is a member of a Royal College and earning huge wages.

Today, he could afford to send our mum on medical check-ups abroad. Something we thought was beyond our family.

Nigeria is a crazy entity where merit matters NOT.


He hates Nigeria with PASSION. 'Nuff said.

oyb:

50,000 a year is crap? wetin we no go hear for nl?

sefago please do tell, are doctors not among the highest paid professionals in the us?

are they not the only ones who have more or less passed through the meltdown unscathed?

before obj, do you have any idea what house offices were earning in nigeria? its better now, but still not that high.

its really sad to see this nigerian mentality which is the same way we  look at teachers. a doctor should not be able to send his kids to good schools? they should live hand to mouth?

lol . . . . You didn't even notice how he SWITCHED this to Doctors DURING RESIDENCY( not really considered graduates in most all countries until AFTER RESIDENCY).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Residency_(medicine)

Medical students, during residency still, live on better wages than their PHD counterparts --- PHD average is still at about $28000 a year in most states here. The average doctor (non-resident student) according to reports available online earn upwards of $80,000 both in Europe and America( in UK the start is at about $35 k and above which is well over $80000). In the US, a friend who recently completed residency and is now out in the job market, signed an over  $100,000 a year contract in the city. Good research will reveal this is no special case at all.

Anyways, it is more than obvious that this original article says NOTHING of resident doctors/medical students but fully licensed doctors and nowhere in developed countries do they earn what anyone can consider little money if the facts are considered.

Ekt wants every Nigerian to pay huge rates for education. Yet, he doesn't want doctors to go on strike for better salaries/working condition.

He wants a system where doctors'd not be able to pay for their children. Imagine that!

He wants them to live in Ajegunle because they are doctors and their profession is humanitarian.


He is safely enscounced in America so he doesn't care.


This Ekt, mhennn

Kobojunkie:

lol . . . . You didn't even notice how he SWITCHED this to Doctors DURING RESIDENCY( not really considered graduates in most all countries until AFTER RESIDENCY). The average doctor according to reports available online earn upwards of $80,000 both in Europe and America( in UK the start is at about $35 k and above which is well over $80000). In the US, a friend who recently completed residency and is now out in the job market, signed an over $100,000 a year contract in the city. Good research will reveal this is no special case at all.

In the UK, baby doctors don't earn much (around 35K; not much). Only consultants and GPs do. And, the locum rate is even better (for consultants) - incredible rates!

Ola one:

In the UK, baby doctors don't earn much (around 35K; not much). Only consultants and GPs do. And, the locum rate is even better (for consultants) - incredible rates!

35,000 pounds is still about $80,000 or more. Please check the numbers. You may not consider it much but I know tons of people in the UK who have worked not less than 5 years and do not make 35,000 pounds a year that easy, in the same UK.

Kobojunkie:

35,000 pounds is still about $80,000 or more. Please check the numbers. You may not consider it much but I know tons of people in the UK who have worked not less than 5 years and do not make 35,000 pounds a year that easy, in the same UK.

Doctors they are not.



By 'not much' I meant for doctors abroad.

Ola one:

Doctors they are not.
By 'not much' I meant for doctors abroad.

I don't follow. Are you saying that  35,000 pounds(~$80,000) entry level salary is bad, even in the UK, for any profession?

Kobojunkie:

I don't follow. Are you saying that  35,000 pounds(~$80,000) entry level salary is bad, even in the UK, for any profession?

Yep, for doctors who had to undergo training for 'bout 8 yrs. A good flat in the UK will cost you 'bout 1200 pounds every month. Some flats (2 bed) in central/west London cost up to 2500 a WEEK!. A doctor should be able to pay for these things.

Doctors dont make zit!! Take abut spending the rest of your life paying school loans.

pazienza:

Buying an MBBS is not an easy thing o! Not saying that it is impossible, just that i have not seen anyone succeed in doing that,most of my coursemates that "sorted" themselves through waec,jamb and post- ume have since realised that it won't work here,hehe! Most of them have since become serious,and some of them who refused to buckle up have since been withdrawn from the college.

Indeed!

Ola one:

As usual, Ekt is here analyzing a terrain he hardly understands.

If you are a doctor and you practise in Naija then you need help. You really need help, then.


My brother trained abroad (scholarship). Immediately he completed his programme, he returned to Nigeria. It was a horrible experience for the whole family (as we were so hopeful that having a doctor in the family would end our financial worries). But, this na Naija. And, that's when it dawned on me that Nigeria was beyond redemption.

He wasted 3 years serving his fatherland. From the exam meant for all foreign-trained doctors (he did his in Kaduna) to housemanship and NYSC. It was horrible, he suffered so much as we did not have any money. He's only brilliant enough to gain this scholarship. But, he persevered.  However, what followed was horrible!

During his housemanship, he was given a room full of bed bugs. He couldn't stay there.

Then when it was time for full employment, he passed the test conducted by the General Hospital in Lagos. He was invited to there useless interview and that's where he discovered that Nigeria was useless beyond redemption.

My parents gave birth to him when they were living in Lagos (the only one born in Lagos among us). The interviewers asked him to name his compound (imagine that) in Lagos, he told them he was only born in Lagos and not a Lagosian apart from his birth certificate. That was there main question at this interview meant for doctors . Eventually, they didn't give him the job.
Meanwhile, a friend (also a doctor) of his did not write the test conducted but his brother was a member of the House of Assembly, Lagos. And, he was sent a letter of employment - no test no interview oooo .

My brother continued to practise privately, surviving practically on d and cs for girls and women.

He got tired of the system and returned abroad. Today, he is a member of a Royal College and earning huge wages.

Today, he could afford to send our mum on medical check-ups abroad. Something we thought was beyond our family.

Nigeria is a crazy entity where merits matters NOT.


He hates Nigeria with PASSION. 'Nuff said.

Awwwwww.

Ola one:

Yep, for doctors who had to undergo training for 'bout 8 yrs. A good flat in the UK will cost you 'bout 1200 pounds every month. Some flats (2 bed) in central/west London cost up to 2500 a WEEK!. A doctor should be able to pay for these things.

So, a doctor earning Pounds 35,000 in first year cannot pay Pounds 1200 for a flat at all? He/she has to be paid millions from the get go for him/her to be able to afford nothing but luxuries? Again, I don't follow. there are people living in the same UK who earn less than Pounds 22,000 a year and they are not in hell(even though many of them have probably 5 years or more of experience in their respective fields). Even PHD holders are not guaranteed a salary of POunds 30,000 on entry-level in the UK and they invest 8 years and more in studying as well. So, please help me understand what it is about $80,000 and above a year that is not good for a starting salary?

Ola one:

As usual, Ekt is here analyzing a terrain he hardly understands.

If you are a doctor and you practise in Naija then you need help. You really need help, then.

Nonsense

My brother trained abroad (scholarship). Immediately he completed his programme, he returned to Nigeria. It was a horrible experience for the whole family (as we were so hopeful that having a doctor in the family would end our financial worries). But, this na Naija. And, that's when it dawned on me that Nigeria was beyond redemption.

But tell me why should your brother be the one to end your financial worries, this is madness gone riot.

His career is for the benefit of his family first and if he can afford to help his extended family good, otherwise other than parents it is not a must.

Bad mentality.

Read your own book and pass your own exams.

He wasted 3 years serving his fatherland. From the exam meant for all foreign-trained doctors (he did his in Kaduna) to housemanship and NYSC. It was horrible, he suffered so much as we did not have any money. He's only brilliant enough to gain this scholarship. But, he persevered.  However, what followed was horrible!

Nothing is wasted serving your fatherland , it is not always about money money money, honestly can you guys not see beyond dollars

During his housemanship, he was given a room full of bed bugs. He couldn't stay there.

He should have bought a new mattress and disinfected the room.

My brother continued to practise privately, surviving practically on d and cs for girls and women.

He got tired of the system and returned abroad. Today, he is a member of a Royal College and earning huge wages.

Oh yeah, huge wages to send back home , while multitudes are living in want of medical help.

When will a Nigerian put the welfare of others above their fanatical desire for comfort and luxury.

This is why the white man has succeeded, in those old days, they gave up all they had to come and live in Squalor while helping the natives.

We too love life, that's why Nigeria is the way it is today.

Today, he could afford to send our mum on medical check-ups abroad. Something we thought was beyond our family.

Good

Ola one:

In the UK, baby doctors don't earn much (around 35K; not much). Only consultants and GPs do. And, the locum rate is even better (for consultants) - incredible rates!

Lol, when I saw this I laughed till my sides ached.

Of course they earn more than this

Kobojunkie:


So, a doctor earning Pounds 35,000 in first year cannot pay Pounds 1200 for a flat at all? He/she has to be paid millions from the get go for him/her to be able to afford nothing but luxuries? Again, I don't follow. there are people living in the same UK who earn less than Pounds 22,000 a year and they are not in hell(even though many of them have probably 5 years or more of experience in their respective fields). Even PHD holders are not guaranteed a salary of POunds 30,000 on entry-level in the UK and they invest 8 years and more in studying as well. So, please help me understand what it is about $80,000 a year that is not good for a starting salary?

Don't mind him jo , everybody wants to live in London.

Let us take Manchester for example, still a big city and in many respects better than London, but house prices are relatively cheap and a wage of £35,000 is perfect especially for a single man or woman. You can rent a flat in Manchester for £500 a month.

Kobojunkie:


So, a doctor earning Pounds 35,000 in first year cannot pay Pounds 1200 for a flat at all? He/she has to be paid millions from the get go for him/her to be able to afford nothing but luxuries? Again, I don't follow. there are people living in the same UK who earn less than Pounds 22,000 a year and they are not in hell(even though many of them have probably 5 years or more of experience in their respective fields). Even PHD holders are not guaranteed a salary of POunds 30,000 on entry-level in the UK and they invest 8 years and more in studying as well. So, please help me understand what it is about $80,000 a year that is not good for a starting salary?

I didn't say 35k was bad. It is more than good in the UK. Not many people are on that rate. But, for doctors, it is inadequate - very small. Why not go on Amazon and check out prices of medical books - good ones.




A PHD is not the same as an MBBS. Many Nigerians are on PHD abroad.

frosbel:

Nonsense

But tell me why should your brother be the one to end your financial worries, this is madness gone riot.

His career is for the benefit of his family first and if he can afford to help his extended family good, otherwise other than parents it is not a must.

Bad mentality.

Read your own book and pass your own exams.




Nothing is wasted serving your fatherland , it is not always about money money money, honestly can you guys not see beyond dollars


He should have bought a new mattress and disinfected the room.




Oh yeah, huge wages to send back home , while multitudes are living in want of medical help.

When will a Nigerian put the welfare of others above their fanatical desire for comfort and luxury.

This is why the white man has succeeded, in those old days, they gave up all they had to come and live in Squalor while helping the natives.

We too love life, that's why Nigeria is the way it is today.

Good

Are you this stupi,d? Are you naturally a twerp? You are saying it is nonsense for him to cater for a family that had suffered toooooooooooooooo much? Are you retarded? Do you care for your parents at all?

Are you telling me he should live a dejected life just because he is a doctor while spare parts dealers build flats in Ikoyi?

Are you telling me he should live on a salary that is so small most Nigerian girls would not even consider you for marriage?

Are you saying that it is wrong to uplift his family? His siblings? Are you a Nigerian? Are you an African at all?


My dad believed in this crap mentality of yourS and that's why we faced a lot financially. It got to a stage they used to owe him up tO 5 months' salary. He couldn't change my crap secondary school. I had to read on my own.

His pension has still not been paid after many many years.





In fact, may God punish you. IDIOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOT!

Ola one:

I didn't say 35k was bad. It is more than good in the UK. Not many people are on that rate. But, for doctors, it is inadequate - very small. Why not go on Amazon and check out prices of medical books - good ones.A PHD is not the same as an MBBS. Many Nigerians are on PHD abroad.

I still don't see what you are saying at all. First you admit that for UK, 35000 pounds is more than good for an entry-level position, but then you turn around to claim it is not good for doctors. Are you suggesting that the job should then PAY for the choices of the students to attend these schools, from day one? Is that now what the companies should be there for?

Also my mentioning the PHD is not in respect of the degree itself but amount of time invested in obtaining that too since you attempted to argue that for 8 years of personal investment, companies should pay graduates(ENTRY-LEVEL applicants) more even though you acknowledge that they already get paid more than all otthers out there.

The funny thing is that this IDI.OT (Frosbel) lives abroad. Why not leave whatever you and doing and embark on what you are preaching here?

Why not go and develop Africa?

Ode buruku.

Ola one:

Are you this stupi,d? Are you naturally a twerp? You are saying it is nonsense for him to cater for a family that had suffered toooooooooooooooo much? Are you slow? Do you care for your parents at all?

Are you telling me he should live a dejected life just because he is a doctor while spare parts dealers build flats in Ikoyi?

Are you telling me he should live on a salary that is so small most Nigerian girls would not even consider you for marriage?

Are you saying that it is wrong to uplift his family? His siblings? Are you a Nigerian? Are you an African at all?


My dad believed in this crap mentality of yourS and that's why we faced a lot financially. It got to a stage they used to owe him up tO 5 months' salary. He couldn't change my crap secondary school. I had to read on my own.

His pension has still not been paid after many many years.





In fact, may God punish you. IDIOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOT!

I am trying to make you independent and you are abusing me  

Helping you with your school fees is perfectly fine , helping with some emergency money from time to time is also fine, but your brother is not a bank , okay ?

Sending money to parents is a must though if one has a good Job.

To reiterate I was referring to the constant sending down of money to extended family members as an everlasting practise.

Now let me reassure you that God will not punish me , in fact he is blessing me as we speak  

I wish you all the best  

My white teacher in secondary school somewhere is SW Nigeria practically sacrificed his life for us trying to make sure we learn, even when our Nigerian teachers were busy complaining.

He had to farm to buy necessary lab materials to keep us going. He got offers from top companies in Lagos but refused to leave until when things got so bad.

Our people have to learn to sacrifice. Let's assume they pay doctors $40000 per annum, if Nigerian economy can not afford such, all our doctors should leave? These doctors have been trained with Nigeria's money and they should learn to give back.
If we refuse to build our country, who is going to build it for us?

^^^^^^


Thank You.

Best comment so far.

Kobojunkie:

I still don't see what you are saying at all. First you admit that for UK, 35000 pounds is more than good for an entry-level position, but then you turn around to claim it is not good for doctors. Are you suggesting that the job should then PAY for the choices of the students to attend these schools, from day one? Is that now what the companies should be there for?

What do you mean by 'choices?'

He mentioned Manchester, he wants to pay 500 pounds there - maybe somewhere close to Moss side?

He hasn't factored in council tax and bills.

And, does he expect all doctors to live in Manchester?

At 35k, that's around 2300 after tax. Some nurses earn close to that.

Pay for doctors

This page describes the pay for doctors from 1st April 2011.


Doctors in training

Doctors in training earn a basic salary and will be paid a supplement if they work more than 40 hours and/or work outside the hours of 7am-7pm Monday to Friday.

In the most junior hospital trainee post (Foundation Year 1) the basic starting salary is £22,412. This increases in Foundation Year 2 to £27,798. For a doctor in specialist training the basic starting salary is £29,705. If the doctor is contracted to work more than 40 hours and/or to work outside 7am-7pm Monday to Friday, they will receive an additional supplement which will normally be between 20% and 50% of basic salary. This supplement is based on the extra hours worked above a 40 hour standard working week and the intensity of the work.
Specialty doctor and associate specialist (2008) (SAS doctors)

Doctors in the new specialty doctor grade earn between £36,807 and £70,126. See www.nhsemployers.org/sas for more details.


Consultants

Consultants can earn a basic salary of between £74,504 and £100,446 per year, dependent on length of service. Local and national clinical excellence awards may be awarded subject to meeting the necessary criteria.


General practitioners

Many general practitioners (GPs) are self employed and hold contracts, either on their own or as part of a partnership, with their local primary care trust (PCT). The profit of GPs varies according to the services they provide for their patients and the way they choose to provide these services.

Salaried GPs employed directly by PCTs earn between £53,781 to £81,158, dependent on, among other factors, length of service and experience.


Hope this helps.

http://www.nhscareers.nhs.uk/details/Default.aspx?Id=553

Akanbi_edu:

My white teacher in secondary school somewhere is SW Nigeria practically sacrificed his life for us trying to make sure we learn, even when our Nigerian teachers were busy complaining.

He had to farm to buy necessary lab materials to keep us going. He got offers from top companies in Lagos but refused to leave until when things got so bad.

Our people have to learn to sacrifice. Let's assume they pay doctors $40000 per annum, if Nigerian economy can not afford such, all our doctors should leave? These doctors have been trained with Nigeria's money and they should learn to give back.
If we refuse to build our country, who is going to build it for us?

frosbel:

^^^^^^


Thank You.

Best comment so far.

Talk is cheap. . .  lead the way.

Are you in Africa? Uhn? Answer and stop talking crap!

Ola one:

What do you mean by 'choices?'

He mentioned Manchester, he wants to pay 500 pounds there - maybe somewhere close to Moss side?

He hasn't factored in council tax and bills.

And, does he expect all doctors to live in Manchester?

At 35k, that's around 2300 after tax. Some nurses earn close to that.

Who mentioned Manchester? What has Moss side living to do with getting an Entry-level job that pays you Pounds 35, 000 a year? Do all doctors have to live in the high-brow areas of any city or town? You say some nurses earn close to $35000, I ask you after how many years of actually working in the field? I don't think you are being reasonable here at all.

frosbel, unless you come back to nigeria to work as a civil servant, you have NO business commenting on the choices of other not to serve their fatherland

you also had a 'free UI education". so come and give back to your fatherland, go and work in the civil service

nonsense


the funny thing is that so many of the people blathering about doctors WILL ALWAYS TRY TO GET OUT OF PAYING DOCTORS THEIR BILLS

this is the same reason why many private hospitals insist on deposit before treatment

i should know, doctors have very big hearts and nigerians (even the rich ones) love taking advantage of this. i have lost count of the number of people who will troop to my dad's clinic for treatment and start dodging when its time to pay.

I am making plans to come back soon and do something great for my people.

frosbel:

I am making plans to come back soon and do something great for my people.

long hiss

you sound like our fg spokespersons - the govt of plans

hypocrisy of the highest order

do you think the doctors in the uk, us, etc do not also "have plans to come back and do something great for nigeria?"

Can someone explain how 35,000 pounds is greater than 80,000 dollars? Abi na nite school I go?