of course one could also look at copernicus' heliocentric model of the universe which came out around the 16th century:

ptolemaic geocentric model of the universe:



[img]http://faculty.vassar.edu/brvannor/Asia350/ptolemy.gif[/img]

[img]http://www.bluffton.edu/~bergerd/NSC_111/images/ptolemy.gif[/img]

amor4ce:

Would you care to let us know how you arrived at the impossibility of the migration?
Can you provide us with a list of Ile-Ife kings and/or notable residents since 4,000BC?
Are you saying that Ife has had only 50 Oonis (Kings) since 9500 BCE?

Amujale: In a sense, we are talking of periods that depict the times before records began; and the chronology of the Ooni's is known to a particular percentage of accuracy because history makes mention of those that are of greater significance. More importantly, the dates that are matched against the kings of Ife are completely and utterly inaccurate.

amor4ce:

Are you saying that what the people of Eredo believe about Sungbo is impossible, that the queen did not return to that site with all her people (Yoruba?)?
Yoruba oral history includes the account of an extraordinary flood - What would have happened to human settlements and their locations before, during and after the flood?

What i'm saying is that which has already been said and proven to be accurate; the Yoruboid communities pre-dates ancient Egypt therefore the story of the returning Queen only supports the TRUTH of the matter, one can only return to a place that already exists.

tpia@:

it wasnt that far back.

the fatimid dynasty in egypt might be worth looking into but the info on wiki is a bit hard to follow.

The fatmid dynasty isnt that far back, Arabs and Arabia was born out of the African continent and Her personnel; however, we arent talking about 1000's after the common era,  but before the common era; before either Islam or Christianity existed; before Europe or Asian population existed; before there were communities outside of the African continent.

All this knowlegde is in the public domain you just need to go and aquire it, unless you are arguing that there was never a time when the people of the world were concentrated in the Affrican Super continent.

tpia@:

this is definitely a sun disk:

[img]http://img.thenigerianvoice.com/thumb.aspx?img=XGltYWdlc1xjb250ZW50XGZqYTRkcG8wMHdfb2xva3VuLnBuZ3wyMjB8MTEvOC8yMDEx[/img]



and compare with this design of a dish from 14th or 15th century moor-influenced spain:




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lustreware

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hispano-Moresque_ware

Interesting but I don't think there is a connection, just coincidence

^^could be a coincidence or could be connected to the berber/moorish art which the iberian [spanish] pottery was based on at that time.

ife beads were traded as far as north africa i believe.

tpia@:

^^could be a coincidence or could be connected to the berber/moorish art which the iberian [spanish] pottery was based on at that time.

ife beads were traded as far as north africa i believe.

I feel it is a coincidence

^^that's possible.

[flash=500,500]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EB4TVq8ek8s&feature=related[/flash]

I should probably respond to some of the earlier posts now. I guess I'll go in order of posting.

@ emmatok

I have read that "Oduduwan Revolution" article and it is interesting, although it gets a few things wrong.


1. Yoruba was not the language of the Benin palace and indeed when Oba Ovonramwen was negotiating a treaty with H.L. Gallwey in 1892 the terms of the treaty were translated from English to Yoruba and then to Edo. The interpreter was one Ajayi, an Edo-Akure (of Edo and Yoruba ancestry) who translated it to Edo for the chiefs and the Oba. If indeed they understood Yoruba up until 1934, it was unnecessary to translate it to Edo.

Also, it cannot be claimed that the names of the palace officials, titleholders, rituals, ceremonies, courts, etc. are Yoruba and it cannot be claimed that they were all created after 1934, when there is written evidence to the contrary. The Uwangue of Benin (one of the palace chiefs) is mentioned as early as 1668 (Olfert Dapper).  The Benin palace did make use of foreigners (explicitly noted as foreigners, and not natives of the country)  who were Yoruba speaking (called "Lucumies", but not necessarily from Oyo ("Ulkami"?)), in order for the Oba to be able to "punish" these foreign servants if they erred "without interference from their relatives", according to Alonso de Sandoval (De instauranda Aethiopum salute (1627)) but these are not the palace chiefs. And of course these people did not have relatives anywhere in or near Benin as stated by de Sandoval. The origins of the palace chiefs are known and the names and titles of these individuals make the notion of the palace being Yoruba speaking doubtful. For an account of some of the roles and names of the palace title holders one can read p. 54 - 67 of the book Benin Studies by R.E. Bradbury (specifically, the article "The kingdom of Benin" by R.E. Bradbury).

John K. Thornton conjectured that the influence of these Yoruba speaking individuals around the same time the Oyo empire rose to prominence led to the adoption of a Yoruba origin for the Benin dynasty when it had earlier claimed a different origin instead in his article "Traditions, Documents, and the Ife-Benin Relationship". I won't comment on his article extensively here, but let's just say that I disagree with some of his conclusions and interpretations (particularly of the word 'Hooguanee'/'Ogane'). It is true that there is evidence from traditions collected by Paula Ben-Amos (in the book I cited earlier and another article of hers that she published) that some aspects of Yoruba religion (such as Orunmila) were introduced around the 17th century to Benin. It is also true that there is evidence that Igala was once a significant power (they conquered parts of northern Igboland, held some sort of sway over Nupe (which itself conquered Oyo at one time), and one of their conquerors (Onoja Ogboni) was apparently even known in Urhoboland (at least this is claimed in "Onọjọ Ogboni: Problems of Identification and Historicity in the Oral Traditions of the Igala and Northern Nsukka Igbo of Nigeria" by AJ Shelton), but I would like to see more evidence for Thornton's claim before I can accept his claim of some sort of complete reversal of origins. One thing to note here is that the Igala language and the Yoruba language are widely held by linguists to be close to one another (anyone can confirm this for themselves), although the cultures seem very distinct from what I have read about the two cultures (Igala and Yoruba).

Anyway, it is not necessary to invent the notion of a Yoruba speaking Benin palace which names all these people, practices, ceremonies that it possibly can with Edo names and words. That is a little bit too fantastical for anyone's taste.

A look at something like this for example:

http://www.artic.edu/aic/collections/exhibitions/benin/resource/655

would make one wonder why this claim was even repeated.

2. Sentiments aside, Orun Oba Ado is not actually connected in any way to Benin, except in the imagination of some theorists. The dates don't add up or make sense in the context of the stories from Egharevba that  are also accepted by these theorists unless the Oba of Benin dynasty was established in much more ancient times; and of course, there is nothing such as that place in Benin tradition. Concerning the heads of the kings of Benin, there is nothing like an after death decapitation of the kings either in written sources or oral tradition or in Egharevba's work. Also, there are places in Yoruba land called Ado:

"Vincent Faulkner, English pastor at Lagos, visited Ado in 1875 and met the king. The people were, as before, worshippers of Orisa Oduduwa, "an enemy of the white man's religion". He refused permission for Faulkner to speak in the market place, as he had done earlier with Pearse, Crowther and Townsend. Two years later, Faulkner was again at Ado, pressing for land for a mission. Nearby Oke-odan already had agreed to have an agent, Sanu, and a chapel. But Ado still asserted its status as a sacred town. Asadi, the war chief, and the high priest of Oduduwa opposed the granting of land. The proposed piece had so much "medicine" put upon it "that it can never be built upon". Lastly, Henry Doherty, African catechist at Lagos, visited Ado in 1879. He saw a small group of olorisa assembling for the worship of Ifa but otherwise has little to add about the orisa cults." - p. 152 of Hail Orisha!: A Phenomenology of a West African Religion in the Mid-Nineteenth Century by Peter Rutherford McKenzie

books.google.com/books?id=BIdITHIAEs0C&pg=PA152

Yet another mention of a Yoruba Ado:

books.google.com/books?id=sJhWKAcXXKcC&pg=PA101

As I said earlier, there is no evidence of a connection between Orun Oba Ado and Benin.

3. The individual that gave permission to crown the Benin kings was unlikely to really have been the Ooni of Ife, considering the absolute and total ignorance about anybody called "Ooni" or "Oni" in Benin tradition or history or in written documents relating to Benin, prior to 1897 and the creation of colonial Nigeria, but assuming that he was (although perhaps under a different title), I don't see how that contradicts the Ekaladerhan claim since that story does not touch on coronations or what the exact relationship was between the two monarchs. It would be nice for the claim in that article if anybody called "Ooni" was known in Benin tradition or history, or if Edo speakers mutilated the names of Yoruba titles, but unfortunately that is not the case.

As I mentioned earlier, Binis don't mangle Yoruba words and "Oghene" does not derive from any Yoruba word. It is also not even exclusively a Bini word, so trying to interpret the word merely from Benin history as all previous scholars have done is extremely problematic.


4.  Can you or the author of that article please tell me which particular Urhobos claim descent from Oduduwa? Are these Urhobos from Agbarho, Ughievwien, Udu, Evwreni, Olomu, Evu/Ewu/Eghwu, Arhavwarien, Okparabe, Agbarha, Oghele, Ogor, Orogun, Agbon, Avwaraka, Okere-Urhobo, Uvwie, Oghara, Idjerhe, Okpe, or Ughwerun?

Or are they from the moon? R.E. Bradbury's 1957 book The Benin Kingdom and the Edo-speaking peoples of southwestern Nigeria gives accounts of Urhobo origins from p. 129 to p. 132

Concerning Ijaws, one S.K. Owonaro (an Ijaw historian) claimed in 1949 (The history of Ijo (Ijaw) and her neighbouring tribes in Nigeria) that the first son of Oduduwa (not a Yoruba, but someone from Egypt, Mecca, or Persia that settled in Ife) was named Ijo and that this Ijo was tasked by Oduduwa with founding a kingdom in the Niger Delta. I think you should be able to detect how this story is meant to elevate Ijaws to a prime place in history (the "first son" bit) and to tie Ijaws to Egypt or the Middle East or some other romantic origin via an already extant story from another nearby Nigerian culture.

Aside from that, Ijaws only claim descent from Oduduwa on the internet, although those that do make those claims make such strong efforts with their stories that one might actually forget that Ijaws don't really have such traditions. It is very important to remember that there are Ijaws near Itsekiri places and Ijaws basically in Yorubaland (Apoi Ijaw and Arogbo Ijaws in Ondo state, for example) and Yoruba influence on them cannot be discounted in accounting for stories similiar to that proposed by Owonaro. Alagoa studied Ijaw traditions and found that they usually claimed to be indigenous to whereever they were. At the very most he (E.J. Alagoa) found a mention of Egypt. But then again, several Nigerian groups have had similar claims about Egypt or the Sudan anyway.

5. From other available information, Oba Osemwede was really not at risk of "being crushed" by the Akures and while I do not intend to completely dismiss the traditions of the Itsekiris of the Ologbo community in Edo state and their hero Ikaye, I would advise you to think more logically about what is written there and see if it really makes sense in the context of the other traditions about Benin during that time. If people want to "constitute a new history" (as Negro_Ntns put it), there would be no problem if there was more reason for suspicion that the existing tradition about Oba Osemwende and Akure is highly suspect, but I would like to see what the reasons against the existing tradition are before we start crediting one man's army from "saving" Benin from the place that Benin was earlier claimed to have not needed saving from. Like I said, there are other things written about Oba Osemwende and Akure which anyone can find out, and they don't really square up with this "saving Benin from Akure" claim, but I am certainly not dismissing the Ologbo tradition outright if other points in its favor can be mentioned. We should remember that not all traditions were collected in earlier times in detail.

6. Dore Numa was very pro-British and an ally of the invading British forces did not "restore the Benin monarchy", rather he assisted those who stopped it. I think the author of that article got his stories mixed up considerably and is severely confused on that account. I will not bother to get into why that is incorrect since anyone can find out who Dore Numa was and what his role was on their own. It is important, before making claims, to actually find out what the relationship was between Oba Eweka II and Agho Obaseki, what their disputes were about, and how it was that Oba Eweka II actually became Oba. This stuff can all be found out.


@ TerraCotta,

I saw where you wrote that "I'll also add that Hugh Clapperton, who wrote the first detailed records of travels through western Nigeria in the 1820s (about 40 years before Burton) recorded the court tradition of Oyo that the monarchs at Oyo and Benin were descendants of the Ife dynasty." and then you corrected that in a later post to write "Also: Physics--a slight correction to my citation earlier of Hugh Clapperton as the first written source of the Oyo myth of origin. It was actually Richard Lander, who was Clapperton's assistant and who (with his brother) wrote a second journal on traveling through the area after Clapperton died."

But can you post the actual quote that you're referring to? I ask because as far as I'm aware, there are no written sources dealing with this issue which state outright that the Oyo (or Benin, for that matter) monarchy specifically originated from the Ife dynasty (Thomas Bowen's Central Africa (1857), which also recounts the Yoruba story of the origin of mankind from Ife, actually repeats a tradition asserting the primacy of Oyo over all others in fact). In fact, there are multiple pre-colonial sources which, as a result of the dissemination of Oyo propaganda, claim that the king at Ife was a descendant of a slave and that either the Alaafin or another ruler was the original or rightful ruler or simply claim (without claiming the Ife king is a descendant of a slave) that the Oyo king was the overlord of all the rest including the Ife king, but there seem to be no pre-colonial sources which actually state that the Oyo monarchy originated from the Ife dynasty. You can see some of these pre-colonial sources that elevate the king of Oyo or reduce the status of the king of Ife yourself in chapter 7 ('The Heritage of Oduduwa') of Robin Law's book on Oyo: The Oyo Empire c. 1600–c. 1836. I am aware that there is a quote from Lander referencing the fact that the kings of Benin and Oyo were brothers by blood however.

Oh and the Burton article I was referring to was his 1863 article about Warri and Benin: "My Wanderings in West Africa: A Visit to the Renowned Cities of Warri and Benin" (Fraser's Magazine). And I wasn't saying that he was claiming that Benin was the source of Yoruba "culture" though or that his informants were really claiming that either. I meant that his interpretation of what he was told says something about how precolonial views stood compared to post colonial views.

You also wrote "As you know, the earliest reference to the origin of the Oba of Benin dynasty recorded by Portuguese visitors in the early 1500s identifies the Oghene N'Uhe as the source of the dynasty." which isn't actually accurate. The reference is to a word (Hooguanee and later Ogane in another Portuguese source) which can only be plausibly interpreted as "Oghene" (an Edoid word which the Bini also use which can mean "Lord" and which has a kind of religious/spiritual connotation) rather than any other word and the name of the location (probably Ife) is not actually mentioned nor is an explicit claim of what the "source of the dynasty" is. But the issue here is that while the Bini are capable of pronouncing both Oghene and Ooni, the people of Ife, like some other Yoruba in the "Central Yoruba (CY)" dialect area, definitely delete the "gh" sound (the voiced velar fricative) from words naturally (and not surprisingly, those other words where a "gh" or "w" sound has been eliminated sometimes have a double vowel pattern). I don't think that if the people of the Benin court interviewed by the Portuguese were being anything other than forthright they would have elevated that ruler and his court above themselves either implicitly or explicitly. If they had an agenda they should have done the opposite or ignored the existence of that ruler altogether. But they didn't, and that they maintained the title was Oghene seems clear from what the actual documents say. As far as I'm concerned, the originally "foreign" (to them) title "Oghene" is being used today in an altered form unwittingly by one group in Yorubaland, while the originally "foreign" (to them) title "Oba" is being used knowingly and in an unaltered form by another group in Benin.

Concerning the burial place of the Oba of Benin, I think it is misleading to state that there is contemporary "silence" on the burial place of the Oba of Benin's head from Benin. To be "silent" about a claim you first have to be aware of it and there is nothing to suggest that the Obas of Benin or anyone officially part of the palace was ever aware of the claim when it came out. What you wrote would be like me asserting that there is contemporary silence on the part of the Alaafin of Oyo about whether his predecessors' ankles and elbows were buried in Nupe or Borgu land. Furthermore, it is not as if there is actual silence about the Oba of Benin's burial - apart from the written references (and even one sketch) from foreign visitors to precolonial Benin commenting on the tombs/graves of past Obas within the palace complex there are actual specific palace officials (such as the Okaeben) in charge of seeing to the Oba of Benin's burial and embalming the bodies of deceased Obas from long established tradition that people could ask and should have asked in in the past. In the absence of testimony from one of these officials directly or from some very high ranking member of the Benin palace, it makes no sense to claim that there are unnamed other "informants" who could somehow reliably state what happened in the past as far as the Oba of Benin's burial when there is no evidence that they would have had any role in it or have been involved enough with it to know the exact details of how it is carried out.

As for the rest, although I'm not sure all of your exact archaeological dates are accurate (I have come across somewhat different dates in professional publications), I agree with the general premise/idea of your argument about Ife's age. The archaeology of Benin hasn't been fully explored because of numerous limitations which Graham Connah has mentioned in his publications, but I agree with your general idea on the greater antiquity of Ife. What I don't agree with is the idea that dynastic change only happens in a manner that follows simply according to which state existed earlier. I don't think that assumption is borne out by all of world history elsewhere.

Ufeolorun: Spanner in the puzzle?
What I meant is  that the link could possibly be found in places like Akure,ekiti,ijesha,owo and ondo(if egos and embellishment won't allow either ife or benin line) but cos these places too have vehemently disagreed with any story connecting(except Owo but on equals basis) them to benin especially on a master servant relation basis as some Benin historians do.the Ondos especially would have none of it.

Can you actually name these "Benin historian[b]s[/b]"? Do you mean people in real life or writers in newspapers and on the internet that are repeating Egharevba's work? If it's any consolation, some Yoruba writers in books and articles also occasionally repeat Egharevba's work.

This is all from Jacob Egharevba's efforts when he collected traditions in the early 20th century. Basically all of it.

Now who was Jacob Egharevba?

Jacob Egharevba was born in Idanre, schooled in Akure, had friends and mentors that were Yoruba (such as A.K. Ajisafe, the Yoruba author who wrote Laws and Customs of the Benin People (1945)), spoke Yoruba (in addition to Edo and English), and his mother was the granddaughter of an Ibadan chief (according to Egharevba Family, a short pamphlet about his family that he published in 1967, as stated in the article "The Scholarship of Jacob Egharevba of Benin" (1994) by Uyilawa Usuanlele and Toyin Falola). Incidentally, he was also a Reformed Ogboni Fraternity member and an Action Group supporter.

This particular argument against Egharevba from some Yorubas with regard to Benin and  Eastern Yoruba land is a little ironic to me when viewed in the context of his background. Was he really out to stick it to the Ondos and other groups? What would be his particular motivation for that? He was Bini, but I suspect from his background that he did not have any particular bias against eastern Yoruba land.

Even some Yorubas will dispute some of his claims, but some writers, some of which are Yoruba, will cite him heavily at the same time that some Yoruba writers are criticizing Binis for disputing some of what he wrote. People should not have such a strong issue with criticism of his work, just as the first work on the History of the Yorubas by Samuel Johnson has not remained beyond reproach among scholars.

Interestingly enough, the thread was derailed entirely by my criticism of a particular alteration of Egharevba's which was sourced from Percy Talbot's great ethnographic work in the 1920s, and which is relied upon continuously, as though it was strongly supported by facts.

Obviously, I respect his work and his efforts, but he cannot have gotten everything right.

Negro_Ntns:
Quantun physics is just beginning to arrive on conclusions that mystics have known for ages but which science back then denied as invalid conjectures.

Such as?  Can you give specifics on what you think is "mystical" in quantum mechanics?

To forestall any references you might make here to issues associated with the interpretation of quantum mechanics, it should be noted that these problems are legitimate scientific (or if you like, 'philosophical') problems of interpretation, and it is not necessary to bring up terms like "mysticism" or "mystic knowledge" when discussing them.

@ Negro_Ntns

It is very doubtful if the "Lamurudu"/Nimrod/"Oduduwa"/Mecca story given by Sultan Bello and then in a different form by Samuel Johnson has any historical validity at all and the misinterpretation of Sultan Bello's statement as an actual authoritative statement by a scholar that had carried out research into origins seems to have had a seriously distorting effect on your view of history. I think you've been taken for a bit of a ride there merely because of Sultan Bello's apparent confidence (as is clear from his diction in his statement) when he applied a well known Northern Nigerian myth/legend to a group he didn't know about or understand (the Oyos).

Sultan Bello grafted the "Kisra Legend" that was popular among Northern Nigerians onto the Oyo Yorubas in order to explain how they came to be in Northwest central Nigeria because, despite all his learning and scholarship, he didn't really know much about them and couldn't explain how they came to be in northwest central Nigeria, near his own empire. As a result of his immersion in Middle Eastern (Arabic and Muslim, specifically) learning, he had a bias towards that part of the world which made him attempt to explain the origin of a nearby group (the Yorubas at Katunga/Oyo Ile were more or less in the northwest central part of Nigeria, of course) from the Middle East.

The articles "The Kisra Legend and the Distortion of Historical Tradition" (1975) by Phillips Stevens Jr., "Oral Tradition in Changing Political Contexts: The Kisra Legend in Northern Borgu" (1998) by Olayemi Akinwumi, "The Kisra Legend as Oral History" (1980) by Marjorie Helen Stewart, and "The Kisra legend" (1950) by A.B. Matthews, would probably put Sultan Bello's claim in better perspective. I have only read the first three of these articles, but from the preview for the fourth, I can tell that it's about the same general thing as the first three. Anybody who reads some of these articles and then reads Sultan Bello's claim would immediately understand that Sultan Bello's story about Oyo Yorubas basically was a graft of a popular myth onto an unknown group.

I should also clarify that the Kisra legend is not really related specifically to Yorubas nor was that story (the Kisra legend) even exclusively applied to them. The real home of the myth seems to be in explaining the origin of Borgu kingdoms, but it seems to have been applied to several other Northern and North-central groups whose origin couldn't be explained by Muslim Northern Nigerians with a Middle Eastern bias, and of course Bello applied it to the Yorubas, resulting in its appearance in Yoruba history by Samuel Johnson's speculation about it.

However, with the advent of Islam among the Yorubas even more natural confusion may have arisen about the possible validity of the application of such a legend to Yorubas, so even Yorubas back then and now, independently of Sultan Bello's claim, might have opted for a Middle Eastern origin despite the near impossibility of this actually being the case.

I'm only posting this to point out that an authentic "Oduduwa from Mecca" story doesn't really seem to exist among non-Muslim Yorubas. What seems to exist is

1) Sultan Bello's grafting of the Kisra legend onto Oyo Yorubas

and

2) the possible adoption of a Middle Eastern origin by some Muslim Yorubas



Concerning the Obatala/Bes link, from what I can tell, that deity probably was introduced to Egypt from somewhere else in Africa as it is dissimilar in appearance from virtually every other Egyptian deity. Also, I did not suggest that the Yorubas or anyone else under discussion here actually originated from Egypt or the Sudan. I was merely talking about ancient religious links between important centers of different cultures in ancient times and the possibility that the ruling class of certain places could have come from Sudan or Egypt.

Also, I don't think Yoruba or any other group has to be linked to Egypt, the Sudan or Western Asia to be considered "a powerful civilization" in ancient times.

Negro_Ntns: Here is a very good figure to show that Yoruba was a powerful civilization in AfroAsia. Compare to Biblical customs instructing High Priests to dress in exact same manner as shown in this figure.

Contrary to the label in Andrea Jemolo's site that places this figure, found in Jebba,  as an archer, he was in fact a priest as indicated by the adornment of his robe, breastplate, sash and ornamental bells in fron of him and the peyot attached to his hair, covered by the headgear.

Note:   From a mystical perspective, peyot separate between the front part of the brain which is used for abstract thought that can be used for holiness, and the back part of the brain that governs the body.

Some of the images on the Andrea Jemolo site are indeed mislabeled, but that applies to multiple pieces, not just this piece. There is an actual archer figure (wearing cornrows and with a quiver of arrows) that is associated with/related to this crowned figure and with peculiar scarification on his face. Can you explain to me why you think this specific individual in the Nupe bronze is Yoruba? Also, can you explain to me what that collar around his neck is for or means in Yoruba culture?

Also, can you explain to me why you think a (king?) with a circular crest of a horned (like a "devil" god or figure on his crown is a priest? What do you think he was a priest of?

Physicsqed,
There was this Benin video I stumbled on youtube.The video depicted a fight between the Olowo and a  benin warrior,It was comical cos I was just laughing at the way the Olowo was depicted as a 'typical Yoruba',all mouth and no action squarepant.Well the olowo's head according to the film was taken to the Oba sha,am not using this as an authoritative benin take on Benin/Owo relationship(for eg.) but you can't discount stuff like this cos they act out most times oral tradition,innit?I wish I could recollect the title of the film cos its fully acted in Edo language but the edo guy who acted as the Olowo spoke mangled Yoruba sha.loooooool! @ the video again.It was really funny.

I use to frequent(like 3yrs ago) Dawodu.com and I have to say this, some well written books/ journals are better than published books, I drew some of my conclusion about Benin historians on the website and other link it gave.

My point is if the issue who was/is the boss is relegated then maybe true history would be revealed.


NB. am no historian,just a culturally inclined okpe,lol!

Ufeolorun:

Physicsqed,
There was this Benin video I stumbled on youtube.The video depicted a fight between the Olowo and a  benin warrior,It was comical cos I was just laughing at the way the Olowo was depicted as a 'typical Yoruba',all mouth and no action squarepant.Well the olowo's head according to the film was taken to the Oba sha,am not using this as an authoritative benin take on Benin/Owo relationship(for eg.) but you can't discount stuff like this cos they act out most times oral tradition,innit?I wish I could recollect the title of the film cos its fully acted in Edo language but the edo guy who acted as the Olowo spoke mangled Yoruba sha.loooooool! @ the video again.It was really funny.

I use to frequent(like 3yrs ago) Dawodu.com and I have to say this, some well written books/ journals are better than published books, I drew some of my conclusion about Benin historians on the website and other link it gave.

My point is if the issue who was/is the boss is relegated then maybe true history would be revealed.


NB. am no historian,just a culturally inclined okpe,lol!

lol @ that film. Sounds ridiculous.

Well everybody has their own version of history. I'm not a historian either, just curious and interested in pre-colonial Nigeria (and Africa). I don't think they (the people who would know Edo tradition) even know for sure that their soldiers beheaded a king and not a war captain or commander, but maybe they are getting that from Egharevba, since he made similar statements (about beheading) when talking about wars to the east of Benin.

Dang! How did I miss this thread, I have to make some beverage and read it all. Great discussions so far.

Physics,

I read your response.

In summary you are saying: Sultan Bello does not kow the Yorubas, Yorubas who passed down oral histories of these accounts cannot be trusted, Yoruba Muslims are different from Yoruba Christians in their uderstanding of the origin, Samuel Johnson repeated the errors of Bello. . . .the only people who got it right ad know the true history of the Yorubas are the ones who wrote and published books with academic support, many of whom are white of European roots. Isn't that INCREDIBLE!!!

You are yet to respond to my earlier question. Who was the authentic source from which white man got the story that you claim is credible?

Physics,

Buddy, I went back and read your response a second time and it is hard not to share this with you; that your objectivity and interest is in question. You interjected gaps in interpretation with your own understanding and present them as the intent of the author. Will you please steer clear of speaking for authors and present what you believe and know. Let us individually assess the presentations and make our own judgement. I know you will say some Yoruba authors also believe as you do, my question remain valid for all of you and the white men as well - the first book you can reference as credible on the origin must also subsist on a transmission from somebody. . . . .who was that somebody and how was the transmission done? You cannot dismiss the oral transmissions whithout equally dismissing the books that were written based on oral recollections.

Negro_Ntns:

Physics,

I read your response.  

In summary you are saying: Sultan Bello does not kow the Yorubas, Yorubas who passed down oral histories of these accounts cannot be trusted, Yoruba Muslims are different from Yoruba Christians in their uderstanding of the origin, Samuel Johnson repeated the errors of Bello. . . .the only people who got it right ad know the true history of the Yorubas are the ones who wrote and published books with academic support, many of whom are white of European roots.  Isn't that INCREDIBLE!!!

Wait a minute. What exactly do you mean here? There are white Europeans such as Leo Frobenius (in the 1900s) and Dierk Lange (today) who have argued for a Mediterranean (Frobenius) or Near Eastern origin or Middle Eastern origin (Dierk Lange) of the ruling class of the Yorubas and there are numerous Yoruba scholars today who would argue otherwise (although I think Saburi Biobaku felt that the Yorubas came from a place near Egypt or Sudan, and of course the king of the Ijebu also believes his people are from the Sudan). I side with those scholars who opine that Yorubas aren't from the Mediterranean or Middle East - many of whom are Yoruba - for reasons of logic. This is not about the racial background of the authors.

My objection to this Mecca story specifically is that I have not seen where the story is actually an authentic origin story from Yorubas who have not been influenced by a religion (Islam) with a Middle Eastern bias. I did not really argue strongly against an Egyptian or Sudan area origin for the ruling class, but you have to understand that this story of a Middle Eastern origin and the specific form of the story promoted by Bello and later by Johnson very strongly recalls the various "Kisra legends" that were applied to Northern and North-central Nigerian groups. If you read up just a little bit on the Kisra legends, and then read the opening part of Samuel Johnson's book where he gives an account of origins from Mecca, the similarity in the basic outline of the stories is just glaring.

You are yet to respond to my earlier question.  Who was the authentic source from which white man got the story that you claim is credible?

Which story are you talking about?

Negro_Ntns:

Physics,

Buddy, I went back and read your response a second time and it is hard not to share this with you; that your objectivity and interest is in question.  You interjected gaps in interpretation with your own understanding and present them as the intent of the author.  Will you please steer clear of speaking for authors and present what you believe and know.  Let us individually assess the presentations and make our own judgement.   I know you will say some Yoruba authors also believe as you do, my question remain valid for all of you and the white men as well -  the first book you can reference as credible on the origin must also subsist on a transmission from somebody. . . . .who was that somebody and how was the transmission done?  You cannot dismiss the oral transmissions whithout equally dismissing the books that were written based on oral recollections. 

It was not my intent to dismiss the oral traditions that may have influenced Samuel Johnson's statement about origins. It is just difficult to accept that the story he gives in the opening of his book is not just a modified "Kisra legend".

Concerning objectivity, I posted what I did about the Kisra legend and its link to Johnson's work because I thought that on this particular issue, my comment would be taken as objective criticism, not as part of the contentious Ife-Benin discussion, since the question (origin of Yorubas) does not relate to me directly. I'm not going to sit here, and as a non-Yoruba, tell you what Yoruba origins are. That wasn't my purpose in posting what I did. I was just pointing out that when one has read about the Kisra legends, one should view Bello's comments and Johnson's comments in a different light and not view them as pure traditions.

HOW MUCH OF THESE HISTORIC FACTS BEEN PRESERVED? We should be concerned if the evidences of these historic past are not well kept. I am not saying we should embrace the past buy we should have a place for them in our society to remind us of who we are.

all4naija:

HOW MUCH OF THESE HISTORIC FACTS BEEN PRESERVED? We should be concerned if the evidences of these historic past are not well kept. I am not saying we should embrace the past buy we should have a place for them in our society to remind us of who we are.

Actually many are being preserved in Ife if I am not mistaken but I agree with what you are saying

[img]http://farafinabooks.files./2010/03/13-14th-century-seated-figure.jpg[/img]

i could be wrong, but i think the link anthropologists of that time were looking for, was the one between ancient egypt [or africa] and the new world civilizations [ie the pyramids, calendars, religion, etc].


now, its possible the link in question was from africa, but it could also have gone through asia.

or run concurrently.


but there was a theory back then, about a proto-atlantean civilization somewhere between the west african and new world coasts.

of course, like the city of gold and the alchemists' base metal, it was never found, but there could be another explanation.

tpia@:

i could be wrong, but i think the link anthropologists of that time were looking for, was the one between ancient egypt [or africa] and the new world civilizations [ie the pyramids, calendars, religion, etc].


now, its possible the link in question was from africa, but it could also have gone through asia.

or run concurrently.


but there was a theory back then, about a proto-atlantean civilization somewhere between the west african and new world coasts.

of course, like the city of gold and the alchemists' base metal, it was never found, but there could be another explanation.

It's possible because in the video's it was mentioned that some of the people who first discovered the sculptures from Ife were racist and didn't want to believe, even though it was obvious that it was from Black africans, Yoruba's specifically. so I won't be surprised if they were finding a link besides the obvious

that olokun head looks very nice with the blue background.

quite apt imo, since olokun is linked to the sea.

tpia@:


that olokun head looks very nice with the blue background.

quite apt imo, since olokun is linked to the sea.

Yeah I agree

These figurines include holes around the fringes of the scalp, moustache and beard. A certain Biblical anthropologist asserts that figurines excavated from the city of David (Dawodu) included such perforations in which hair from the dead (deified?) ancestor/ruler was woven. My argument was that if the hair was kinky that would pose challenges. however, the response I got was that rulers at that time had their hair braided. Previously I had thought Sango's was an exception and that the perforations had to do with the casting technique. Also, the records of Yoruba rulers we seem to have are not distant from the period of Sango's reign.

Do you know of any other Yoruba ruler whose hair was plaited/braided?
Are there any other reasons for the perforations?

anonymous6:


http://jamesbrantley.net/chapter_two.htm

http://www.artknowledgenews.com/2010-04-25-20-45-27-museum-announces-us-tour-of-ife-art-in-ancient-nigeria-exhibition.html

http://www.africanart.org/products/228/dynasty_and_divinity_ife_art_in_ancient_nigeria

[img]http://hum.lss.wisc.edu/hjdrewal/Ife5.jpg[/img]http://hum.lss.wisc.edu/hjdrewal/Ife.html