The presence of Evil lays the biggest doubt of the existence of an OMNIBENEVOLENT God. If there is an all good being, who in his pursuits CHOOSES good despite his ability to do bad, why is there evil? If he has elected none? If he is all perfect?

Kay 17:

The presence of Evil lays the biggest doubt of the existence of an OMNIBENEVOLENT God. If there is an all good being, who in his pursuits CHOOSES good despite his ability to do bad, why is there evil? If he has elected none? If he is all perfect?

The problem of evil claims that it is unbelievable, if an omnipotent and good God exists, that he would permit so much pain and suffering in the world.

The problem of evil presents its premises as follows:

1. A good God that is omnipotent exist

2. Evil exist

3. Therefore a good God that is omnipotent doesn’t exist,

The first point that needs to be made is that statements (1) and (2) are not logically inconsistent as there is no apparent contradiction. For the atheist to jump to the conclusion that a good God that is omnipotent doesn’t exist is an unwarranted, unless he has assumed some hidden premises, such as:

4. If God is omnipotent, then he can create any world he wants

5. If God is good, then he prefers a world without evil

Statement (4) suggests that since God can create and do anything, then he can create free human beings who always decide to do the right thing and do not fall into evil or suffering. Statement (5) suggests that God is all good so much so that if he could create a world without evil and suffering he would. Otherwise he would himself be evil to prefer that humans experience evil and suffering.

These hidden premises make some daring assumptions; firstly it assumes a Christian type of God, one that is just good and omnipotent. Secondly it assumes that God doesn’t have any reasons to permit evil and suffering in the world.

Response:

Muslims do not only believe that God is just good and omnipotent. Muslims believe that part of God’s names and attributes include ‘the Just’, ‘the Severe in Punishment’, ‘the Wise’, ‘the Avenger’, and ‘the Compassionate’, amongst many others. So statements (1, 4 and 5) are inaccurate as the Muslim does not reduce God to parts, rather God is seen as one and unique in context of all his names and attributes. So if God was just good and omnipotent, then there may be problem in reconciling suffering and evil in the world. However if you include attributes such as ‘the Severe in Punishment’ and ‘the Wise’, these problems would not exist. Because perceived evil and suffering in the world can be due to,

• God’s punishment as a result of our sins and bad actions.

• God’s wisdom, as there may be divine wisdom in permitting evil and suffering. Even if we can’t evaluate what the wisdom is, it doesn’t mean it is not there. To argue such a thing would be a logical fallacy, known as the argument from ignorance (argumentum ad ignorantiam). The story of Khidr which can be found in the 18th chapter of Qur’an from verses 60 to 82 is an eloquent account of how God’s wisdom, whether understood or not, has positive results and benefits for humanity.

In addition to this the Muslim can argue that the problem of evil is logically posterior to the existence of God. You need to establish that God exists first before attempting to reconcile who God is with our perception of reality, in this case, evil and suffering.

Lastly the meaning of the word ‘good’ attributed to God needs to be understood in a divine context. In general terms the word ‘good’ has a meaning that relates to human experience, whereas in Islamic theology ‘good’ as an attribute of God is primarily viewed as a unique attribute that can be appreciated but not fully comprehended due to his uniqueness and transcendental nature.

tbaba1234:

The problem of evil claims that it is unbelievable, if an omnipotent and good God exists, that he would permit so much pain and suffering in the world.

The problem of evil presents its premises as follows:

1. A good God that is omnipotent exist

2. Evil exist

3. Therefore a good God that is omnipotent doesn’t exist,

The first point that needs to be made is that statements (1) and (2) are not logically inconsistent as there is no apparent contradiction. For the atheist to jump to the conclusion that a good God that is omnipotent doesn’t exist is an unwarranted, unless he has assumed some hidden premises, such as:

4. If God is omnipotent, then he can create any world he wants

5. If God is good, then he prefers a world without evil

Statement (4) suggests that since God can create and do anything, then he can create free human beings who always decide to do the right thing and do not fall into evil or suffering. Statement (5) suggests that God is all good so much so that if he could create a world without evil and suffering he would. Otherwise he would himself be evil to prefer that humans experience evil and suffering.

These hidden premises make some daring assumptions; firstly it assumes a Christian type of God, one that is just good and omnipotent. Secondly it assumes that God doesn’t have any reasons to permit evil and suffering in the world.

Response:

Muslims do not only believe that God is just good and omnipotent. Muslims believe that part of God’s names and attributes include ‘the Just’, ‘the Severe in Punishment’, ‘the Wise’, ‘the Avenger’, and ‘the Compassionate’, amongst many others. So statements (1, 4 and 5) are inaccurate as the Muslim does not reduce God to parts, rather God is seen as one and unique in context of all his names and attributes. So if God was just good and omnipotent, then there may be problem in reconciling suffering and evil in the world. However if you include attributes such as ‘the Severe in Punishment’ and ‘the Wise’, these problems would not exist. Because perceived evil and suffering in the world can be due to,

• God’s punishment as a result of our sins and bad actions.

• God’s wisdom, as there may be divine wisdom in permitting evil and suffering. Even if we can’t evaluate what the wisdom is, it doesn’t mean it is not there. To argue such a thing would be a logical fallacy, known as the argument from ignorance (argumentum ad ignorantiam). The story of Khidr which can be found in the 18th chapter of Qur’an from verses 60 to 82 is an eloquent account of how God’s wisdom, whether understood or not, has positive results and benefits for humanity.

In addition to this the Muslim can argue that the problem of evil is logically posterior to the existence of God. You need to establish that God exists first before attempting to reconcile who God is with our perception of reality, in this case, evil and suffering.

Lastly the meaning of the word ‘good’ attributed to God needs to be understood in a divine context. In general terms the word ‘good’ has a meaning that relates to human experience, whereas in Islamic theology ‘good’ as an attribute of God is primarily viewed as a unique attribute that can be appreciated but not fully comprehended due to his uniqueness and transcendental nature.

Isn't the Muslim God supposed to be merciful too?
If God is just and severe in punishment, then how can he at the same time be merciful? That, I think, is a logical contradiction.
The other attributes simply make things worse.

A sufficient response to the second assumption is to provide a strong argument that God has justified reasons to permit suffering and evil in the world. The intellectual richness of Islamic Theology provides us with many reasons, some of which include:

1. The primary purpose of the human being is not happiness rather it is to know and worship God. This fulfillment of the divine purpose will result in everlasting bliss and happiness. So if this is our primary purpose other aspects of human experience our secondary. The Qur’an, the book of the Muslims states: “I did not create either jinn or man except to worship Me.” (Qur’an 51:56-57)

2. God also created us for a test, and part of this test is to be tested with suffering and evil. The Qur’an mentions “The One Who created death and life, so that He may put you to test, to find out which of you is best in deeds: He is the all-Almighty, the all-Forgiving” (Qur’an 67: 2)

3. Having hardship and suffering enables us to realise and know God’s attributes such as ‘the Victorious’ and ‘the Healer’. For example without the pain and suffering of illness we would not appreciate the attribute of God being ‘the Healer’. Knowing God is a greater good, and worth the experience of suffering or pain as it will mean the fulfillment of our primary purpose.

4. People can also suffer from past, present or future sins. God has knowledge of everything which is not contingent on time. Please refer to the story of Khidr in the Qur’an where it mentions Khidr’s reply to Prophet Moses “All this was done as a mercy from your Lord. What I did was not done by my own will. That is the interpretation of those actions which you could not bear to watch with patience.” (Qur’an 18:82)

5. God has given us free will, and free will includes choosing evil acts.

thehomer:

Isn't the Muslim God supposed to be merciful too?
If God is just and severe in punishment, then how can he at the same time be merciful? That, I think, is a logical contradiction.
The other attributes simply make things worse.

It only presents a problem if you take out the fact that God is also wise, just and severe in punishment. You can't isolate the characteristics of God. What constitutes mercy or wisdom? God is not just merciful or Good.

@tbaba

Nice effort. However, you seem to define 'good' as a wish of God, as an expressive attribute. Thus if he does evil, its a 'good'. This would unfortunately lead to a contradiction or making nonsense out of what its understood about 'good'

Evil is the sum total of opposition which cripples, corrupts, hampers human development both physical and mental.

However, if as you define good is not antithetical to evil, then God cant be said to omnibenevolent.

tbaba1234:

It only presents a problem if you take out the fact that God is also wise, just and severe in punishment. You can't isolate the characteristics of God. What constitutes mercy or wisdom? God is not just merciful or Good.

Justice means appropriately punishing someone who had done something wrong.
Mercy means not punishing someone when they have done something wrong.
So how can the same entity be totally just and totally merciful?

Kay 17:

@tbaba

Nice effort. However, you seem to define 'good' as a wish of God, as an expressive attribute. Thus if he does evil, its a 'good'. This would unfortunately lead to a contradiction or making nonsense out of what its understood about 'good'

Evil is the sum total of opposition which cripples, corrupts, hampers human development both physical and mental.

However, if as you define good is not antithetical to evil, then God cant be said to omnibenevolent.

Kindly read the first post again.

If you reconcile all the attributes of God, what you consider 'evil' could be as a result of God's wisdom or as a result of his Justice.

You may ask, how is an earthquake an act of wisdom? That is an argument from ignorance.  Even if we can’t evaluate what the wisdom is, it doesn’t mean it is not there. To argue such a thing would be a logical fallacy, known as the argument from ignorance (argumentum ad ignorantiam). Read the story of khadir in 18th chapter of Qur’an from verses 60 to 82.

You based your conclusion on the premise that God is all benevolent, that will be a Christian view of God, Islam presents a more comprehensive view that defines God as a unit having different divine attributes. You have to look at what goes on the world in the light of those attributes.

thehomer:

Justice means appropriately punishing someone who had done something wrong.
Mercy means not punishing someone when they have done something wrong.
So how can the same entity be totally just and totally merciful?

I never said totally just or totally merciful, God is wise, just and merciful,

The attributes are all part of the unit that is God. like i said before:

"the Muslim does not reduce God to parts, rather God is seen as one and unique in context of all his names and attributes. So if God was just good and omnipotent, then there may be problem in reconciling suffering and evil in the world. However if you include attributes such as ‘the Severe in Punishment’ and ‘the Wise’, these problems would not exist."

Yes all beings are multifaceted, numerous attributes will be needed to understand the essence of such a being. If some attributes are incompatible with one another, then making an argument for wholeness of contradictions does not make sense.

If there is evil in an allgood being, then it STOPS being allgood.

I can safely conclude from ur posts that Allah (muslim God) is not all good

Kay 17:

Yes all beings are multifaceted, numerous attributes will be needed to understand the essence of such a being. If some attributes are incompatible with one another, then making an argument for wholeness of contradictions does not make sense.

If there is evil in an allgood being, then it STOPS being allgood.

I can safely conclude from your posts that Allah (muslim God) is not all good

I think your problem is what constitutes Good and Evil,  You can not superimpose, your human translation of what is Good or Evil to God.

I will give you a simple illustration, If i take away my little kid's video games so he doesn't get addicted to it. My kid might consider what i did to be wicked, harsh, or evil, even though it is the best thing for him. Here, my superior wisdom is at play. Like i said earlier

" the meaning of the word ‘good’ attributed to God needs to be understood in a divine context. In general terms the word ‘good’ has a meaning that relates to human experience, whereas in Islamic theology ‘good’ as an attribute of God is primarily viewed as a unique attribute that can be appreciated but not fully comprehended due to his uniqueness and transcendental nature. "

Your definition of evil presumes that since God is good the world should be perfect. Forgetting that the world has its own purpose and would not last forever.

I guess i have to repeat the Islamic theological position:

1. The primary purpose of the human being is not happiness rather it is to know and worship God. This fulfillment of the divine purpose will result in everlasting bliss and happiness. So if this is our primary purpose other aspects of human experience our secondary. The Qur’an, the book of the Muslims states: “I did not create either jinn or man except to worship Me.” (Qur’an 51:56-57)

2. God also created us for a test, and part of this test is to be tested with suffering and evil. The Qur’an mentions “The One Who created death and life, so that He may put you to test, to find out which of you is best in deeds: He is the all-Almighty, the all-Forgiving” (Qur’an 67: 2)

3. Having hardship and suffering enables us to realise and know God’s attributes such as ‘the Victorious’ and ‘the Healer’. For example without the pain and suffering of illness we would not appreciate the attribute of God being ‘the Healer’. Knowing God is a greater good, and worth the experience of suffering or pain as it will mean the fulfillment of our primary purpose.

4. People can also suffer from past, present or future sins. God has knowledge of everything which is not contingent on time. Please refer to the story of Khidr in the Qur’an where it mentions Khidr’s reply to Prophet Moses “All this was done as a mercy from your Lord. What I did was not done by my own will. That is the interpretation of those actions which you could not bear to watch with patience.” (Qur’an 18:82)

5. God has given us free will, and free will includes choosing evil acts.

You can't define God as not all good when you can't fully comprehend his actions, another argument from ignorance. That is like my child calling me evil cause i seized his video game.

For the attributes of God check https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-572803.0.html

If God's assigned purpose of mankind is to stun it and limit its potential, then its an evil purpose.

Kay 17:

If God's assigned purpose of mankind is to stun it and limit its potential, then its an evil purpose.

did you read tbaba's last response?

tbaba1234:

A sufficient response to the second assumption is to provide a strong argument that God has justified reasons to permit suffering and evil in the world. The intellectual richness of Islamic Theology provides us with many reasons, some of which include:

1. The primary purpose of the human being is not happiness rather it is to know and worship God. This fulfillment of the divine purpose will result in everlasting bliss and happiness. So if this is our primary purpose other aspects of human experience our secondary. The Qur’an, the book of the Muslims states: “I did not create either jinn or man except to worship Me.” (Qur’an 51:56-57)

2. God also created us for a test, and part of this test is to be tested with suffering and evil. The Qur’an mentions “The One Who created death and life, so that He may put you to test, to find out which of you is best in deeds: He is the all-Almighty, the all-Forgiving” (Qur’an 67: 2)

3. Having hardship and suffering enables us to realise and know God’s attributes such as ‘the Victorious’ and ‘the Healer’. For example without the pain and suffering of illness we would not appreciate the attribute of God being ‘the Healer’. Knowing God is a greater good, and worth the experience of suffering or pain as it will mean the fulfillment of our primary purpose.

4. People can also suffer from past, present or future sins. God has knowledge of everything which is not contingent on time. Please refer to the story of Khidr in the Qur’an where it mentions Khidr’s reply to Prophet Moses “All this was done as a mercy from your Lord. What I did was not done by my own will. That is the interpretation of those actions which you could not bear to watch with patience.” (Qur’an 18:82)

5. God has given us free will, and free will includes choosing evil acts.

1-5 is absolute nonsense. This is the biggestest poblem with this notion of a creator. Once you fabricate a creator, you now have to fabricate a personality and conflicting wills for him. You just commited blashphemy.The god you just fabricated sounds more like an egostic, schitzofrenic tyrant than an all wise creator.
No wonder people commit sooo much evil in the name of god.

plaetton:

1-5 is absolute nonsense. This is the biggestest poblem with this notion of a creator. Once you fabricate a creator, you now have to fabricate a personality and conflicting wills for him. You just commited blashphemy.The god you just fabricated sounds more like an egostic, schitzofrenic tyrant than an all wise creator.
No wonder people commit sooo much evil in the name of god.

did you even bother to read the response you're thrashing? you quoted it but made NO intellectual argument for why you think it is nonsense rather you launched into an irrelevant tirade that rather betrays your own narrow-mindedness.

Let me respond to tbaba's post:
1. He is absolutely right, the number 1 reason we are created is to worship the creator. No surprise, no one creates a product that is not meant for a specific purpose of benefit to the maker right?

2. No, we were not created specifically for tests.

3. God didnt create us to endure suffering either

4 and 5 are intertwined . . . most people love the concept of "freewill" UNTIL it comes to God. You have free will to live your life as you pls, why is it a problem when you suffer consequences of poor choices? When is it ok for God to intervene?

davidylan:

did you even bother to read the response you're thrashing? you quoted it but made NO intellectual argument for why you think it is nonsense rather you launched into an irrelevant tirade that rather betrays your own narrow-mindedness.

Let me respond to tbaba's post:
1. He is absolutely right, the number 1 reason we are created is to worship the creator. No surprise, no one creates a product that is not meant for a specific purpose of benefit to the maker right?

2. No, we were not created specifically for tests.

3. God didnt create us to endure suffering either

4 and 5 are intertwined . . . most people love the concept of "freewill" UNTIL it comes to God. You have free will to live your life as you pls, why is it a problem when you suffer consequences of poor choices? When is it ok for God to intervene?

Yeah, because its hard to believe that , in this age,people still believe that god created humans just so that humans can worship him. What an insult to god.
Why id he not just created as many billion zombie clones as his ego desired. Why give you a mind and why the need for personality differentiation?
I guess you would also write a computer software that you make your computer worship you. what would that make you? Its called narcisism.

plaetton:



Yeah, because its hard to believe that , in this age,people still believe that god created humans just so that humans can worship him. What an insult to god.
Why id he not just created as many billion zombie clones as his ego desired. Why give you a mind and why the need for personality differentiation?
I guess you would also write a computer software that you make your computer worship you. what would that make you? Its called narcisism.

again just irrelevant and unintelligent rants. No attempt to take on the issues raised in the two posts you have referenced so far.

I guess you forgot where myself and tbaba referenced the concept of "freewill"? If you wanted to be created a soulless clone then so be it.

Was he the one that created free will or was it his opposer(the serpent ) that granted mankind free will (to discern good and evil) ?

plaetton:

Was he the one that created free will or was it his opposer(the serpent ) that granted mankind free will (to discern good and evil) ?

what a senseless comment. Obviously this discussion is in over your head.

Senseless comment? It was a question. Please read Genesis again.
Too many contradictions. Thats why ist very common to speak from every side of the mouth.
Rather be humble and say, I dont know or undertsand, people make outlandish claims that seem to contradict the very points of view they wish to present.
Going by the many conflicting voices of his spokesmen, god's will is indeed schitzophrenic.

plaetton:

Senseless comment? It was a question. Please read Genesis again.
Too many contradictions. Thats why ist very common to speak from every side of the mouth.
Rather be humble and say, I dont know or undertsand, people make outlandish claims that seem to contradict the very points of view they wish to present.
Going by the many conflicting voices of his spokesmen, god's will is indeed schitzophrenic.

if that was your "question" then it shows you never read genesis either. God clearly showed Adam both the tree of life and the tree of good and evil . . . it was Adam's choice to taste whichever knowing the consequences. Getting tougher having to spend time educating these morons.

tbaba1234:

I never said totally just or totally merciful, God is wise, just and merciful,

The attributes are all part of the unit that is God. like i said before:

"the Muslim does not reduce God to parts, rather God is seen as one and unique in context of all his names and attributes. So if God was just good and omnipotent, then there may be problem in reconciling suffering and evil in the world. However if you include attributes such as ‘the Severe in Punishment’ and ‘the Wise’, these problems would not exist."

So a prayer made to Allah as the utterly just and exceedingly merciful would be a wrong prayer?
Sure those problems wouldn't exist because the idea would then be considered incoherent thus making Allah non-existent.

thehomer:

So a prayer made to Allah as the utterly just and exceedingly merciful would be a wrong prayer?
Sure those problems wouldn't exist because the idea would then be considered incoherent thus making Allah non-existent.

What? i don't understand you question

tbaba1234:

What? i don't understand you question

What I'm asking is whether a prayer made to an utterly just and exceedingly merciful Allah would be appropriate since he isn't actually utterly just and exceedingly merciful at the same time.

i'm trying to reason on the topic and caught an headache.it worries me to see men vehemently protect their own opinions, just mere abstract things. we need to tone down on all these things, so religion wont make you go mad.

Freewill is often said to be the cause of evil, but since evil is an imperfection and creation is the reflection of the level of perfection of its creator. If God is all good and free will is a good end, then he would CHOOSE it as a moral being. Also, coupled with good judgement, a perfect being with freewill will not lapse into imperfection.

Also, there are evils that are beyond the control of man, especially natural disasters

Kay 17:

Freewill is often said to be the cause of evil, but since evil is an imperfection and creation is the reflection of the level of perfection of its creator. If God is all good and free will is a good end, then he would CHOOSE it as a moral being. Also, coupled with good judgement, a perfect being with freewill will not lapse into imperfection.

Also, there are evils that are beyond the control of man, especially natural disasters

I think tbaba already addressed this issue, The problem is many of you barely even understand the responses to your "questions". You cant superimpose your idea of good and evil on God. Like tbaba said, a child would think it is evil for his mother to take away his video game. Is that necessarily evil to the mother?

How do you flippantly define evil as "imperfection"? A mottled flower is evil? an albino or a child born with 12 fingers is evil?
Or do you mean to say that putting 6 million jews through a gas chamber is merely an "imperfection"?

Do any of you parse your statements through your thought filters before posting?

davidylan:

if that was your "question" then it shows you never read genesis either. God clearly showed Adam both the tree of life and the tree of good and evil . . . it was Adam's choice to taste whichever knowing the consequences. Getting tougher having to spend time educating these morons.

Really, they show themselves to be either unread, poorly read or mere beginners. The issue they are raising, though always a legitimate point of discussion, is age-old and well known even in philosophy; simply google "the problem of evil".

Unless this place is treated as a place for endless back and forth discussion (often of beer parlour level), engaging in these kinds of discussion in this forum is, in my opinion, often only useful for educating beginners and countering/exposing the sciolists from whom you hardly ever learn/read anything new.


PS Oh and another thing: ask the so-called atheists* to explain the source and basis of their morality! How can there be objective morality if there is no God? How also can there be good and/or evil? If there is no God, how can anything (r.ape, earthquakes, poverty, etc) be evil in the first place? Afterall, their so-called "evolution" teaches "natural selection".



* More properly: evangelical atheists or militant atheists or fanatical atheists etc etc

@davidlyan

I doubt if you understood my definition of evil. I said it was the sum total opposition against the realisation of potential and full development of man towards perfection. I didnt mean mere 'pleasure', an imperfection. Though i apply evil to man exclusively, but ur example of a mottled flower is not evil, but its the result of evil such as; diseases, death.

@enigma

If good and bad can not apply to God, then he is not a moral being neither is he all good

@kay17

First of all, I do not think you really understand my post.

Moving on however: you people are always going on about the importance of "defining terms" (e.g the tiresome perpetual "define god". Accordingly, to really advance your position and argument, you really need to define at the least:

1. "Good"
2. "Evil"
3. "God"

Otherwise, your argument/case is really a non-starter.

I ve clearly defined both terms of good and evil, also tbaba has defined God, while you didnt read any of them.

Can God be bad?

^^ I've seen your definition of 'evil'; I will look out for the one for 'good'.  However, you still have to define what you mean by "God".

Even then here:

1. A tsunami occurs and 10,000 people die as a result. What is good or evil about this and WHY?

2. An aeroplane crashes with 500 people dead. What is good or evil about this and WHY?

3. A lion kills and eats a young kid goat. What is good or evil about this and WHY?

4.

. . . a trapped team of five spelunkers determine via radio contact with physicians that they will have starved to death by the time they are rescued, and thus elect to eat one of their party. Once the remaining four spelunkers are rescued, they are all indicted for the murder of their fifth member.

from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Case_of_the_Speluncean_Explorers

Full monty http://www.nullapoena.de/stud/explorers.html

What is good or evil about this and WHY?