dammytosh:



Lol I feel you the fact that when you are at vacation, ur mac pro must be with u makes LIFE a capital NO,  That u can afford to stay at the beach all day in bahamas makes money TRUE.

I am a programmer too and i have not slept in my crib for days. I guess you know why. But Saying I Gat No Money, is damn false. Not too much though,  but enough to make some people feel oppressed 

I do not have to take my mac everywhere I go bro and unlike you I live life to the fullest despite being a programmer. I can chose my own working hours and location unlike most other professions and get well appreciated and financially rewarded for my effort. And  take holidays just like people in other professions when I practically don't even switch on my mac at all. So I don't know what you are on about lol

paulo882:

Software Engineering and Programming are both branches of Computer Science. A Software Engineer by their profession deals with managing all the processes involved software development, from architecting the system, requirements gathering  to project managing it etc but has nothing to do with writing the actual software, that's the job of a programmer. So they are two different things. I would think employers would prefer a programmer with computer science instead of Software Engineering because a computer science graduate has had more hands on experience with coding than their Software Engineering counterpart. That's my take.

You are very wrong, but this is not the right thread to discuss this further.

csharpjava:

You are very wrong, but this is not the right thread to discuss this further.

Hehehe, I am waiting for your explanation.

paulo882:

Hehehe, I am waiting for your explanation.

Not my explanation but that of a professional in the software industry:

omo_to_dun:

One particularly useful book was Professional Software Development. Chapter 4 can be read here: PSD: Chapter 4 .

A quote from the above link: A computer science graduate " might spend two days hand-tuning a sorting algorithm instead of two hours using a code library or copying a suitable algorithm from a book. The typical computer science graduate typically needs several years of on-the-job training to accumulate enough practical knowledge to build minimally satisfactory production software without supervision." On the other hand software engineering gratuates have already received this training during their studies at Uni.

csharpjava:

Not my explanation but that of a professional in the software industry:

you sound as if it's killing you that someone can actually be very good at programming without reading computer science. my advice: deal with it

A programmer from a software engineering or computer science background has A LIFE AND PLENTY OF MONEY but a self taught programmer has NO LIFE AND NO MONEY.

dont know what you guys are talking about. We have various degree of expertise in programming, from the very basic programming to high level programming, and of course a degree in software/comp science does not automatically guaranty which level you attain. Wondering why you have 8 or 15 yr old gurus in programming without any college degree.
For instance, i hold a masters degree in elect/telecom in europe and programming was one of my block courses and am wondering why elect was never mentioned in your argument. Also recently some programming languages have been introduced in the financial sector for those studying financial engineering.
I was interviewed by a high school HR technical guy in my first job interview, and the first question he asked was "do you have any programming blog", obviously i looked astonished and a brief "compile" of my memory codes only came back with an >>executable facebook>> and <<NO programming blog<<, so i said NO, only to be told that successful programmers should blog well in programming.
So in summary, courses offered in uni do not make you the best programmer, i see those as preparatory.

One particularly useful book was Professional Software Development. Chapter 4 can be read here: PSD: Chapter 4 .

A quote from the above link: A computer science graduate " might spend two days hand-tuning a sorting algorithm instead of two hours using a code library or copying a suitable algorithm from a book. The typical computer science graduate typically needs several years of on-the-job training to accumulate enough practical knowledge to build minimally satisfactory production software without supervision." On the other hand software engineering gratuates have already received this training during their studies at Uni.

@csharpjava, Dude, I am also a professional in the industry with years of experience and I studied it at Uni too. I can tell you categorically that the above write up is crap. During my undergrad days I had classes with both students in Software Engineering and Computer Science, and I can tell you Comp Sc. students spend more time programming than Software Engineering guys. Software engineering students spend majority of their time on things like requirements gathering, software architecture, software testing, and software deployment. In Software Engineering you will learn about working with people (communication, management, working with non-technical customers), processes for developing software, and how to measure and analyze the software product and the software process but you don't get much time in front of a computer writing code like a Comp. Sc. Student.

In any case, both Software Engineer and Computer Science students when they first graduate from Uni are no where as good as the college drop out/self taught dude that has been programming for years, they will require several years of experience and training to catch up with the college drop out/self taught dude. In practise, if all 3 were to apply for a Senior Programmer role, the college drop out/self taught will most likely get the job based on his experience and past contributions to projects. So it doesn't really matter what you study.

csharpjava:

A programmer from a software engineering or computer science background has A LIFE AND PLENTY OF MONEY but a self taught programmer has NO LIFE AND NO MONEY.

thats in an ideal case. I studied mechanical engineering and in my final year i helped some computer science folks out in their assignments and PROJECT, (C++/JAVA). Was also consulted by other peeps in civil and Elec. Engineering for softaware design (Using MATLAB).
I agree that comp sci and software eng eggheads have an edge in algorithm efficiency but if we were to design a mechanical system (say pipeline modelling) simulator i guess i will in my elements then,

@paulo882 & dammytosh

I'll really like to get touch oo my brothers,  I'm currently a Jr SD, graduated last year. I know there's more to programming than writing lines of codes also, networking with other professionals is imperative to one's career.

Please how do I get in touch Sirs? phar897@yahoo.com

paulo882:

[color=#990000]
In any case, both Software Engineer and Computer Science students when they first graduate from Uni are no where as good as the college drop out/self taught dude that has been programming for years, they will require several years of experience and training to catch up with the college drop out/self taught dude. In practise, if all 3 were to apply for a Senior Programmer role, the college drop out/self taught will most likely get the job based on his experience and past contributions to projects. So it doesn't really matter what you study.

Well you are right the college drop out/self taught will get a job but will end up with NO LIFE AND NO MONEY.

csharpjava:

Well you are right the college drop out/self taught will get a job but will end up with NO LIFE AND NO MONEY.

You are so funny, Bill Gates, Steve Jobs and Mark Zuckerberg don't have a life/money ? I hope you have more money and better life than them :-)

paulo882:

You are so funny, Bill Gates, Steve Jobs and Mark Zuckerberg don't have a life/money ? I hope you have more money and better life than them :-)

Check the career section of the website of Microsoft, facebook and Apple which were started by the guys you have mentioned and see the people they employ. So why don't they advertise jobs for college drop out/self taught programmers?

csharpjava:

Check the career section of the website of Microsoft, facebook and Apple which were started by the guys you have mentioned and see the people they employee. So why don't they advertise jobs for college drop out/self taught programmers?

Guy this is a pointless argument. If you have the opportunity and money to get degrees etc, by all means do it, it helps to develop you as a human. But just know that as far as programming is concerned, your paper qualification alone is not good enough to get you into the best jobs. The ppl with more experience even though no paper qualification will grab the best jobs and opportunities. So the earlier you finish your studies and start gaining experience, the better for you ( my candid advise )

paulo882:

Guy this is a pointless argument. If you have the opportunity and money to get degrees etc, by all means do it, it helps to develop you as a human. But just know that as far as programming is concerned, your paper qualification alone is not good enough to get you into the best jobs. The ppl with more experience even though no paper qualification will grab the best jobs and opportunities.

Programming today has moved away from just writing syntax. The cartoon in this thread is true for many of those who are self taught as all they know is about writing syntax. They have no clue that something like Formal Methods in Software Engineering do exist, this is required for writing mission critical software for rockets, aroplanes, life support machines and so on. Though I will not discourage anyone from learning programming on their own but they should be aware that programming today is more than just writing syntax.

csharpjava:

Programming today has moved away from just writing syntax. The cartoon in this thread is true for many of those who are self taught as all they know is about writing syntax. They have no clue that something like Formal Methods in Software Engineering do exist, this is required for writing mission critical software for rockets, aroplanes, life support machines and so on. Though I will not discourage anyone from learning programming on their own but they should be aware that programming today is more than just writing syntax.

What a st.upi.d post. Na your daddy they write syntax. st.upi.d man.

worldbest:

What a st.upi.d post. Na your daddy they write syntax. st.upi.d man.

This is the problem when all the programming you know is self taught, you result to name calling rather than to come up with solid facts to back up your claim.

you do know that why it's recommended to go to school is because it's easier to learn things there and you jus have to follow a certain scheme of work that has been structured in such a way that will give you maximum understanding of certain fields, the reason why school's are recommended in a developing human's life is because of the easy way things are learnt there, Attending school or formally learning something does not modify that knowledge you acquired, If anoda unqualified literate individual comes in contact with that same knowledge he acquires it and that's that and he has more advantage than you cos there would be no boundary to where he can apply that knowledge but U the formally trained guy will probably be as good as your teacher and his/her mistakes, It doesn't have to be programming, it can happen in any field, 1 + 1 = 2, doesn't matter who said it.

their money dey for their brain

Whoever drew that cartoon is terribly and sadly mistaken

of-course a programmer is useless without input from other professionals. how can a programmer model high pressure aggressive media pipe line without input from those guys? he will only end up with web design and simple calculator.

^^ LOL well done.
It's okay to be ignorant. Because THAT is all what you know programmers to do.

I love that the general cluelessness of the populace to what we do makes us ever more so valuable.

That aside, if you're a programmer and you're still un-progressive enough to not have ventured out into consulting to (at least small) companies but instead are constantly looking for some cubicle to sit in as "full time staff", you never arrive be dat 

Software is like a middle-class cheat career  . . . with tons of opportunities to move to upper class without regulations. The only glass ceiling in software is the limits of YOUR imagination and skill, not how many degrees and certifications you have and all that typical naija thinking stuffs. Ask an accountant or lawyer if this is so with them.

*gives up and dies*

Slightly true!

IMO, we have many good programmers but one thing missing in their lives is marketability; not being able to deliver their stuff to the right audience.

its one thing to be able to code, it another thing to be able to market your outputs. the successful ones are the ones that are able to sell their stuffs to the right people and they are the ones we hear of.

programmers should learn to team up with other people with other managerial skills to display and sell their stuffs.

But the money part i don't agree sha oh! But them no get life!

I agree with @paulo882.

In the real world, ability to write codes is mostly a function of experience! Writing codes is a skill that can be developed regardless of what you studied in college. Software engineers, computer scientists, computer engineers, and electrical engineers can all write codes. What differs is the number of opportunities available to each college degree.

It is also true that programmers will also tend to earn the least amount of money because you can teach almost anybody to “turn a wench” - the barrier of entry is lower. There is no money in being in strictly being a programmer (implementing syntax).

Your pay is based on your responsibility and your responsibility might be limited by your education and experience. Software architects will typically earn the most amount of money because they are responsible for the entire software design.

If you're going into software and not doing so with an entrepreneurs mindset, you're doing it wrong.
Its the best business. Practically zero startup and operating costs and if you sell yourself properly and HAVE visible large achievements, 6 digit dollars in a year is nothing. Trust.

@OP:
Please speak your mind straight. Why is it that the programmer and the robber doesn't have shoes? What are trying to imply?
Goodluck as you give me/us the only correct answer.

I don't have any pali for computer sci or programming - bt many bigtyme employers are after me. And I cannot honestly call myself a poor programmer.
It all depends on usin ur opportunities well and being at the right place at the right time.