Joagbaje:

Rather , some are turned from the living God by the vicious attack , so called christian critics are doing to his body.

On the contrary, they are encouraged that there are still few people out there who stand for the truth. When the people that has been deceived gets true, revelation they run away from falsehood to the truth.

goshen360:

@ Joagbaje,

I himbly say you need to re-assess yourself. Whatever, I do here on this forum is based on personal conviction and biblical truth. You cannot pick just a bible verse and sit on it.

I will like you to be objective enough also to assess yourself ,by asking supposing I'm wrong"

I'm not just picking a verse. If you feel I'm wrong, please prove it with scriptures.

Besides, many of the verses you quote to defend falsehood is actually not accurate

Why would I want to defend false hood . I don't even believe in many of the things they practice. But that doesn't mean they are wrong. You must know peoples motive to judge . That's even of you must judge anybody. People have different revelations from the word of God. Why will you condemn?

goshen360:

On the contrary, they are encouraged that there are still few people out there who stand for the truth. When the people that has been deceived gets true, revelation they run away from falsehood to the truth.

Has it ever worked? It's against the principle of the bible. You cant ridicle the body of christ openly and expect positive response.  If you're really open ,let's discuss it biblically

Joagbaje:

I will like you to be objective enough also to assess yourself ,by asking supposing I'm wrong"

I'm not just picking a verse. If you feel I'm wrong, please prove it with scriptures.

Why would I want to defend false hood . I don't even believe in many of the things they practice. But that doesn't mean they are wrong. You must know peoples motive to judge . That's even of you must judge anybody. People have different revelations from the word of God. Why will you condemn?

Ok, you are not just picking a verse to defend falsehood. I will bring it up on another thread i will be doing soon on the subject of "Judge not", stay alert.

Why do you need to know people motive before you speak against falsehood? Don't you know the word of God is the mirror through which we know people's mind and motives?

For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. Heb 4:12 (NIV)

Any revelation that anybody claims to have that opposes or negates the foundation of the truth is called another gospel.

Joagbaje:

Has it ever worked? It's against the principle of the bible. You cant ridicle the body of christ  openly and expect positive response.  If you're really open ,let's discuss it biblically

Am very much open my dear brother. I will handle all of this issues in my article, "Judge not" very soon. But for the purpose of this discussion i will talk a little about it. Isn't the body of Christ suppose to know better than the world? Are we not the living epistles that people of the world reads? How then do we condole falsehood and expect to get better results?

goshen360:

Ok, you are not just picking a verse to defend falsehood. I will bring it up on another thread i will be doing soon on the subject of "Judge not", stay alert.

Let's discuss it here

Why do you need to know people motive before you speak against falsehood? Don't you know the word of God is the mirror through which we know people's mind and motives?

Motives play a major role  in judgement . If not you will judge in error. Because what you're condemning may be based on truth. There are different revelations . It's only God who. Can judge in some matters.

Romans 14:5-6
One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. 6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.


When we come with the attitude of "HOLIER THAN THOU" and judge others without even knowing the much they know . It doesn't make sense. You don't condemn a man because you believe something different from his own.

Romans 14:4
4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.


We can judge doctrines but not people

@Joagbaje
There is a big difference btw ridicling the body of christ and ridicling the man made institutionalised church which your likes and Oyaks have corrupted and abused. It is you charlatans that are fleecing in the name of christ and staging false miracles that are attempting to ridicle the christian religion. And I can assure you that Christ would not tolerate fraud in his name. Jesus himself warned us of false prophets and how to identify them. I must confess that you , oyaks and other prosperity preaching scammers fit perfectly into the biblical description of false prophets. Jesus would rather we expose you than we cover up the fraud being done in his name on the excuse that we shouldn't ridicle a so called body of christ.

@ Joagbaje,

Joagbaje:

Let's discuss it here

Motives play a major role  in judgement . If not you will judge in error. Because what you're condemning may be based on truth. There are different revelations . It's only God who. Can judge in some matters.

I just told you that we can judge as the word of God is the mirror that exposes the intentions and motives of man. Heb 4:12. There is not revelation that negates the biblical truth of God's word. Also, it is not only God that can judge. Christians can judge ourselves in the mirror of the word of God and I will proof it from the bible in my next response.

If something is wrong, it is wrong regardless of motive!

Claiming people's kids will lose their salvation for leaving a congregation is wrong regardless of motive.

Fleecing people for money is wrong regardless of motive - if money is needed for propagation of the gospel, it should not be obtained fraudulently or through enticement.

Jesus himself said by their fruits you shall know them, so for those wanting to hide behind this 'motive' stories, it won't work.

debosky:

If something is wrong, it is wrong regardless of motive!

Claiming people's kids will lose their salvation for leaving a congregation is wrong regardless of motive.

Fleecing people for money is wrong regardless of motive - if money is needed for propagation of the gospel, it should not be obtained fraudulently or through enticement.

Jesus himself said by their fruits you shall know them, so for those wanting to hide behind this 'motive' stories, it won't work.

Lol at the bold.

Dude, I can actually defraud people, it wont matter, since it will depend on my [b]motive [/b]for it to be deemed acceptable.!!!!

Interesting, isn't it?

@ joagbaje,

We ought to judge, try, and test to see whether other people that call themselves Christians are false prophets or not. This is important because many are afraid to judge, but we are commanded to judge and "try the spirits". Christians are permitted to judge ourselves in the faith but not people who have not come to knowledge of Christ.

1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

1 Corinthians 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

John 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

The oft-quoted passage about not judging applies to hypocrites, not the righteous.  When we know the truth, we are commanded to judge and help the other to see more clearly.

Matthew 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

v2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

v3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

v4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

v5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

It is utter hypocracy to say "Don't judge me, because judging is wrong."  Obviously, the one who says that is judging the other person, too.  In the context of Matthew 7, Jesus wasn't saying we shouldn't judge but rather, when we cannot judge will guilty of same sin as the personal we tends to judge. Therefore, most certainly, the Bible does not teach us that "judging is wrong".  

Romans 14 is also often used to justify not following the commands to judge.

Romans 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

This is the same bible verse that is often quote to defend evils done by some Christians and falsehood in the body of Christ. This does not say that "judging is wrong", rather it says that we are unable and unqualified to judge certain things (and this has no application and connection whatsoever to judging false prophecy, prophets and teachers and trying the spirits, which we are commanded to judge).  Romans 14:4 applies to "doubtful disputations", see Romans 14:1, it says: Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters.  

In context of the whole chapter, Christians have freedom do act according to our conscience, as led by the Holy Spirit, and this is supported elsewhere as well.  Ephesians 4 and 1 Corinthians 12 make it clear that not all Christians are given gifts to do each kind of work, and we are not to judge whether someone should be a preacher, or evangelist, or teacher, or healer, or exercise some other gift for the body of Christ.

Hebrews 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

Hence, we should be able to discern between good and evil, and able to identify false prophets, their falsehood and teachings, trying the spirits, giving reasons for our hope, showing our brothers how to cast the mote out of their eyes, judging righteous judgment.

When people give in a church they give to God and not to a man because any time l come across threads like this l laugh and ask who is fleecing who?
Come what may giving in churches is spuritual and can only be sustained by a motivation higher than just a man standing before them and ask for money question: how long will they keep asking people.
There is an extent of success to which a man can get just preaching money sermons and make people give but beyond that a point the people can only keep giving based on a motivation that transcends that of a man standing before them.
Giving is a demonstration and an expression of Love because you see Love is the nature of God himself. How is it possible that a man will deceive people in their thousands across national boundries and racial divide concurrently for more than 25years because most of the churches who preach giving and their brethren radically participate in giving are not a congregation of 100 or 500 most of them are in their thousands and have being in existence for more than 20years.

^^^ Did you read the article? Many of my articles here supports giving. As you said, giving is the nature of God and there not question about that and giving as described in the bible must be done willingly, cheerfully and without grudges. What we are talking about is fleecing God's people in fraudulent ways using ungodly/biblical items or means.

goshen360:

^^^ Did you read the article? Many of my articles here supports giving. As you said, giving is the nature of God and there not question about that and giving as described in the bible must be done willingly, cheerfully and without grudges. What we are talking about is fleecing God's people in fraudulent ways using ungodly/biblical items or means.

my question remains: who is fleecing who?
What people fail to realize is that people can only keep giving for these number of years because of their convictions and their commitment to these convictions. When such givings are done in these church questions of these nature should pop up
# what is their motivation for giving?
# what are they involved with?
because a church or ministry involved with such capital intensive projects like satellite telecast, internet video streamings, website maintainace, monthly publications etc once the brethren of such ministries catch the vision what do expect

debating about tithing is putting the cart before the horse. the issue here is any pastor that needs a physical church is a man of satan because God SPECIFICALLY said that he does not reside in any churches built with human hands. ACTS 17 vs 24. lord says i need my prophets (pastors) to go to the highways and byways to rescue my lost sheep. LUKE 14 VS 23. This means you need to be on the streets and street corners preaching. where better to find people who are lost than on the street ?
you cant be a man of God and be disobeying his law ACTS 17 VS 24. either you are a stone cold lunatic or just a reckless person with a death wish.    Shalom Israel. I shall catch you on the street corner. Nairaland street that is 

PREACHING 101 for all you pastors. this is what the lord expects of you.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJZqgkCGu4s&list=FLJuuFk8AM93c-tX3u3lqX1A&feature=mh_lolz

and i do appreciate the fact that some of you are pastors and you live on tithes (not sure if Joagbaje falls into this category) but if you are in the lord, he will always make a way for you to survive. the world may be in the meanest recession but his children will always have food to eat.

goshen360:

@ joagbaje,

We ought to judge, try, and test to see whether other people that call themselves Christians are false prophets or not. This is important because many are afraid to judge, but we are commanded to judge and "try the spirits". Christians are permitted to judge ourselves in the faith but not people who have not come to knowledge of Christ.

1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

Trying overly spirit is not dealing with another minister but rather doctrines. That's what I had said earlier. We can judge doctrines but not condemning people. Because you don't agree with them.

1 Corinthians 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

That's the point I'm getting you to see. We can judge (judiciarily) dispute between two people. And it's done among Christians . Not in public forum where all the enemies of Jesus are watching. Muslims , satanist,and sinners. God hates the open ridicule of his body in presence of sinners.

1 Corinthians 6:1
1 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?

John 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

That's my point brother , I want you to judge righteously. How much do you know about what you condemn . Besides there difference between condemning a man and condemning his action.

Another one just popped up in my heart. The successful and famous charlatans often charge or demand certain money to come preach the gospel when or if invited. Imagine a pastor charging 500,000.00 to 1,000,000.00 to preach the gospel. They will name their price as a result of special anointing on them as they also promised to draw crowds.

Pastor Jo was smart to ignore this.

@topic

i dont give a damn coz all yáll christians are hypocrites. All men are hypocrites.

^^^
So which minister did that? Can you mention any?

Joagbaje:

^^^
So which minister did that? Can you mention any?

ah dont be so callous. even you a pastor asking that? you dey joke. go ask your call boys,

^^^ I personally do not like to mention names of preachers who charge money to come preach but the truth remains, you cannot deny the fact about this my brother. It is happening among us christians.

@ joagbaje,

You agree to judging righteously right? Am sure Yes. I will like you to explain to everyone here what you understand by righteous judging. Remember, your answer should be explained by bible verse, not your own words because when we teach biblical issues, scriptures must explain scriptures by itself. The bible is written to Christians about christians and it is not a hidden or secret book, it is open for all to read. Maybe you know better than Apostle Paul that rebuke Peter openly etc.

Proverbs 27:5 Open rebuke is better than secret love.

Joagbaje:


That's the point I'm getting you to see. We can judge (judiciarily) dispute between two people. And it's done among Christians . Not in public forum where all the enemies of Jesus are watching. Muslims , satanist,and sinners. God hates the open ridicule of his body in presence of sinners.

1 Corinthians 6:1
1 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?

Remember Goshen, I told that some will come at you with a self-righteous attitude.

Mr Jo,

Firstly, are you not judging people by regarding them as sinners? Who are you to conclude that they are sinners?

Using your own insinuation, Do you know their motives to 'judge' them as sinners?

Am sure by now you get the hypocrisy!!!

Secondly, this is a much fuller part of the bible verse that you quoted;

1 If any of you has a dispute with another, do you dare to take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the Lord’s people? 2 Or do you not know that the Lord’s people will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? 3 Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life! 4 Therefore, if you have disputes about such matters, do you ask for a ruling from those whose way of life is scorned in the church? 5 I say this to shame you. Is it possible that there is nobody among you wise enough to judge a dispute between believers? 6 But instead, one brother takes another to court—and this in front of unbelievers!
7 The very fact that you have lawsuits among you means you have been completely defeated already. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be cheated? 8 Instead, you yourselves cheat and do wrong, and you do this to your brothers and sisters. 9 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who Be Intimate with men[a] 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

My question to Goshen ;

Have you taken anybody to court?
Have you brought lawsuit against the brethren?
Is it not your intention to discuss this issue amongst people you regard as the 'brethren'?


So somebody tell me, why is Mr Jo quoting only verse 1 out of context?
Sometimes I wonder if some people feel the bible is an exclusive preserve for them only. As though we all don't have access to the same bible.

Once again Mr Goshen,

There is absolutely nothing wrong in seeking truth and exposing deception.

To pretend it does not exist or to try to hide it under the closet only means one is 'silent' partaker of such deception.

@ dare2think,

Thanks so much and God bless you. You really need to be deep and drunk in the word of God to deal with my brother Joagbaje. Many times, he takes scripture verses out of context. When you have the gift of teaching the word of God, you MUST understand you CANNOT explain bible with you own words. You MUST let the bible interprete and explain itself using other relative verses. You cannot just lift a verse and make a teaching out of it, that's not how to be a bible teacher or student of the word of God.

@ Joagbaje,

Infact, the body of Christ is expected to behave well in the society. You need to understand this truth. For you to rub evil in the head and defend such even though it's the same body of Christ is partaking in evil itself. When Apostle Paul was saying, "Therefore come out from them and be separate, says the Lord, " he wasn't talking to people outside the body of Christ, he was talking to believers (2cor.6:17). I do have preachers that i also love but my brother, when they err and does evil or something wrong from the bible's view, i don't hide under such evil that they are right and defend them. To do that is to share out of their evil and punishment. EVIL IS EVIL, BAD IS BAD, NO MATTER WHO IS INVOLVED.

We have to keep Parstor JoAgbaje in our prayers! Dude has the chutzpa to come here and defend a BAED practice within modern/Pentecostal Christianity of "money for hand back na ground".
I have seen the number Bleep special offering scam first hand and didn't fall for it, there are many tricks the true body of Christ need to be aware of and AVOID, you can't buy your way into Salvation.


I am reminded of Max Romeo's song, here are the lyrics:


Stealing, stealing, stealing
Stealing, stealing
Stealing in the name of the Lord

My father's house of worship
Has become a den of thieves
Stealing in the name of the Lord

They fed our mothers with sour grapes
And set our teeth on edge
Stealing in the name of the Lord

Strike the hammer of justice
And set my people free
Strike the hammer of justice
Or let my people be

They tell us of a heaven
Where milk and honey flow
Stealing in the name of the Lord

They said, this place called heaven
The rich man cannot go
Stealing in the name of the Lord

Yet the reverend drives a fancy car
Buys everything tax free
The people have to sacrifice
To give in charity

My father's house of worship
Has become a den of thieves
Stealing in the name of the Lord

Stealing, stealing, stealing
Stealing, stealing
Stealing in the name of the Lord

Stealing, stealing, stealing
Stealing, stealing
Stealing in the name of the Lord

GOD DELIVER ME FROM THIS FAITHLESS GENERATION

Joagbaje:

GOD DELIVER ME FROM THIS FAITHLESS GENERATION

DELIVERANCE IS YOURS MY WAYWARD SON! ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS CLAIM IT.
THUS SAITH I, THE LORD OF HOSTS.

GOD DELIVER 'US' FROM THE DECEITFUL PASTORS THAT IS CAUSING THIS  GENERATION TO LOSE FAITH

Joagbaje:

GOD DELIVER ME FROM THIS FAITHLESS GENERATION

No Pastor JoAgbaje, God has DELIVERED us from FALSE PASTORS!

We pray God delivers you from your chosen path of money gospel, we are "faithless" now because we don't buy the shenanigans of the "name it and claim it" prosperity JUNK?

@Joagbaje,
Christianity lost its flavour a long time ago since the word of faith movement entered the scene. Starting from their senior bishop Idahosa down to Oyakilome and co and their followers. They watered down the true gospel which preaches the love for God and His creatures and creation, and replaced it with the love for self personal materialistic aquisition. Anyone searching truly for God may not come to christianity, they will rather go to movements which talk more about spirituality like hinduism and the grail movement. Haven't you also noticed that what really brings people and keeps people in church is actually the quest for miracles be it financial, material or medical. This is why Jesus said he would cast these people away (and am thinking He was talking about the challatans i spoke about earlier) saying I know you not despite the earth rending miracles they performed in his name which resulted in the mamoth crowd they attract for themselves. Sometime ago I read about an atheist who gave $22.5 million to the catholic for the sole purpose of sponsoring indegent children in their educational pursuit. Do you think God will overlook such gesture? Put urself in God's shoes, if you have an opponent or an enemy whom you do not see eye to eye and then you were unavailable for some reason and this fellow heard about your child being involved in an accident, needs to performs a surgery that will save his but because you were unavailable there was no money to pay the hospital bills and your child will definitely die if the money is not made available immidiately. If this guy goes ahead to pay the bills and hence saves your son's life would you still consider him as an enemy? Would you still punish him for not beliving in your ideologies? We are continually fleeced by these word of faith chalatans and as a result we have little left to show God that we love Him by showing love to his creatures. Like I said earlier, christianity started losing its salt since Idahosa came with his prosperity teachings.