First Dialogue With Abdullah Ibn Abass (cousin of Imam Ali and the Prophet s.a.)

Umar:"O Ibn `Abbas! Do you know what stopped your folks [from getting the caliphate] after Muhammad (pbuh)?"

Ibn `Abbas narrates saying: "I hated to answer `Umar's question, so I said to him: `If I do not know, the commander of the faithful [i.e. `Umar] knows.'"

`Umar said: "[Some people simply] hated that both prophethood and caliphate be confined to your House (Banu Hashim); so, they were happy about their scheme. Quraysh sought it for thmselves, and were able to obtain it."

Ibn Abass : "O commander of the faithful! Do you permit me to say something and promise to control your anger?" He answered in the affirmative;

Ibn `Abbas said: "As regarding your statement, O commander of the faithful, that Quraysh sought it for themselves and were successful in obtaining it, I say that had Quraysh sought what Allah had chosen for them, their choice would have been unobjectionable and unblamed. As regarding your statement that they hated to see both prophethood and caliphate in our House, I say that Allah, the Exalted and the Sublime, has described (in the Quran) some people to be malicious, saying, `... that is so because they hated what Allah has revealed, so He rendered their deeds vain.'"

`Umar then said: "Impossible, O Ibn `Abbas, for I heard things about you which I hate to believe else your status in my eyes should be reduced."

Ibn Abass asked: `What are they, O commander of the faithful? If they are true, they should not lower my status in your esteem, and if they are not, I am capable of defending myself against false charges.'

`Umar then said: `It has come to my knowledge that you say that they have deprived you (Banu Hashim) of it [caliphate] out of envy, oppression and injustice.'

Ibn Abass said: `As regarding your statement, O commander of the faithful, that it was oppression, then that has become quite obvious to those who are ignorant as well as to those who are clement. As regarding your statement about envy, then Adam was envied, and we are his descendants who also are envious.'

`Umar then said: `Impossible, impossible; your hearts, O descendants of Hashim, have become filled with envy that can never dissipate.'

Ibn Abass therefore said: `Wait, O commander of the faithful, do not attribute this to the hearts of among those whom Allah has purified with a perfect purification.'"

Al-Tarikh al-Kamil by Ibn al-Athir who includes it at the conclusion of `Umer's biography among the events of the year 23 A.H., page 24, Vol. 3, and it is also quoted by the Mu`tazilite scholar in `Umer's biography, too, page 107, Vol. 3, of Sharh Nahjul Balaghah


As Recorded by Tabari:

Umar :"..Ibn Abbas! What prevented 'Ali from coming with us?'

Ibn Abass replied, 'I do not know'.

Umar continued: 'Ibn Abbas your father is the paternal uncle of the Messenger of God. You are his cousin. What has prevented your people from putting you [in authority]?'

Ibn Abass replied: that I did not know.

Umar continued: 'But I do know, they do not like you being put in charge of them'.

Ibn Abass said: 'Why, when we are good to them?'

Umar replied: O God [grant] forgiveness. They do not like you to combine Prophethood and the caliphate among yourselves, less it bring about self-aggrandizement and pride. You will perhaps say, 'Abu Bakr did this'. No indeed, but Abu Bakr did the most resolute thing he could. If he had made (the caliphate) yours, he would not have benefited you despite your close ties of relationship [to the Prophet]".
(The History of Tabari, Volume 14, English translation, by G. Rex Smith, p136-137)

Second dialogue between Umar and Abdullah Ibn Abass (ra).

Umar:"How did you leave your cousin?"

Ibn `Abbas said he thought `Umar meant `Abdullah ibn Ja`far; so, he answered: "I left him in the company of his friends."

Umar said: "I did not mean him; I meant the greatest among you, Ahl al-Bayt(i.e. Imam Ali)."

Ibn `Abbas said: "I left him exiled, irrigating while reciting the Qur'an."

`Umar said: "O `Abdullah! I implore you not to be shy but tell me if he is still concerned about the issue of caliphate." Ibn Abass answered in the affirmative.

Then `Umer asked: " Does he claim that the Messenger of Allah (pbuh) has selected him for it?"

Ibn `Abbas answered: "Yes, indeed; moreover, I even asked my father if there was any statement made by the Messenger of Allah regarding selecting him for the caliphate, and my father informed me that that was the truth."

`Umar then said: "The Messenger of Allah held him in very high esteem through his speeches and actions in a way that left no argument nor excuse for anyone, and he kept testing the nation regarding him for some time; nay, even when he was sick [prior to his demise], he wished to nominate him for it, but it was I who stopped him."

Imam Abul-Fadl Ahmed ibn Abu Tahir in his book Tarikh Baghdad, indicating his reliable source to be Ibn `Abbas. It is also quoted by the Mu`tazilite scholar who discusses `Umer in his Sharh Nahjul Balaghah, page 97, Vol. 3.

Third Dialogue Between Umar and Abdullah Ibn Abass (ra)

`Umar said: "O Ibn `Abbas! I can see how wronged your friend [`Ali (as)] is."

Ibn `Abbas said: "O commander of the faithful, then affect justice on his behalf."

Ibn `Abbas said: "But `Umer pulled his hand from mine and went away whispering to himself for a good while. Then he stopped; so, I rejoined him,

and he (Umar) said to me: `O Ibn `Abbas! I do not think that his people denied him [the caliphate] for any reason other than his being too young for it.'

Ibn Abass said to him: `By Allah, neither Allah nor His Messenger regarded him as too young when they both ordered him to take Sürat Bara'a (Qur'an, Chapter 9) from him [from Abu Bakr].' Having heard this, he (Umar) turned away from me and started walking fast; so, I left him alone."

This dialogue is quoted by authors of books of biographies in their discussions of `Umar, and it is quoted here from Sharh Nahjul Balaghah by the Mu`tazilite scholar; so, refer to page 105 of its third volume.

deleted.post meant for another thread.

^Laughing at your overzealousness.

^

keep laughing as far as i get rewarded.

^Of course, by your sponsors. LOL. You are a bad advertisement for them. The only people you can impress are non-Muslims. Ironic- Hahaha!

maclatunji: ^Of course, by your sponsors. LOL. You are a bad advertisement for them. The only people you can impress are non-Muslims. Ironic- Hahaha!

what i do here,is done with my money and time fi sabilillah.it is out of conviction.

i am not here to impress anyone.and i wonder how many non-muslims i have impressed when they are the most disturbed by my presence.i can bring you many praises the Muslims have showered me with,but that is not what i seek.and ofcourse someone like you who is a follower of tyrants and oppression and who staunchly defends the tyrants and oppose the truth and masks his boiling rage is in no position to be impressed.you have left the discussion (in the other thread) out of intellectual and spiritual bankruptcy to come into this thread and engage in gossip-like talk and idle speech.you have not even responded to the OP of this thread because you can't.if you have anything to say,come back to this thread:

https://www.nairaland.com/1001212/why-it-bidah-forbidden-sinful/1

dont resist your intellectual capacity (if any) to think and reason out of fanaticism and bigotry.

Holy Quran 43:78
"We had certainly brought you the truth, but most of you, to the truth, were averse".

how low of a muslim moderator to try to use his grudge against being shown the truth to get at other Muslims.

^Actually, it is because I don't have time for back and forths with you over that which is obvious. Unless you are out to create your own religion. Those you seek to demean are lightyears above you even if you were to type from now till judgment day against them.

1. You will never have lived with Prophet (SAW).

2. You will never be a Father-in-Law to him.

3. You will never have fought for him against his enemies when sure destruction looked imminent.

4. You will never be his Khalifat.

5. You will not be buried directly next-to-him Insha Allah.

6. You can never have the knowledge of Islam they both had.

7. You will never spend in real terms what they spent in the service of Islam Insha Allah.

8. You can never attain their level of honour with Allah, his Prophet and sincere Muslims till the end of time Insha Allah.

9. You will never be the one primarily responsible amongst humans for preserving the Qur'an till eternity after the demise of the Prophet (SAW).

10. You will never pay attention to details the way both men did in fleeing from Haram Insha Allah.

So, tell me why I should waste time with you over them. My intention was to warn you and I have done that.

Fisebilillah indeed!

maclatunji: ^Actually, it is because I don't have time for back and forths with you over that which is obvious. Unless you are out to create your own religion. Those you seek to demean are lightyears above you even if you were to type from now till judgment day against them.

i am a SHIA MUSLIM.i follow SHIA ISLAM.you have being brainwashed into believing that the Sunnism you follow is just Islam.that is a deception.you are following the sunnah of the shaykhain (abu bakr and umar) and also the legacy of banu umayya (especially muawiya and yazeed) who are enemies of the Ahlul-Bayt (as).what is your stand on being SHIA? stop pretending as if i am here to make my own religion.that is dishonest.

you do not have time for "back and forth" but you have time to descend into mockery? besides,there is no back and forth.in the other thread we were moving forward and making improvement when you decided you can no longer bear an intellectual discussion,where you find yourself agreeing to reason and seeing the points and understanding of your perceived opponent (i.e. me).you came there to sort of trap me and use your moderator power to silence.if what i am propagating is not the truth you would have succeeded in doing that.can't you see Usisky,a "submitter" sect member,and ahmadiyyah have no grounds to stand upon? that can never be the case of being a Shia Muslim.we stand upon Islam and true Islam of Muhammad (sa) and his Ahlul-Bayt (as).

1. You will never have lived with Prophet (SAW).

Abu Sufyan lived and fought him.

2. You will never be a Father-in-Law to him.

Abu Lahab was his uncle.

3. You will never have fought for him against his enemies when sure destruction looked imminent.

Imam Ali (as) single-handedly influenced the victory of almost all battles fought in the time of the Prophet (sa).and even when Muslims were facing defeat Imam Ali (as) in both Uhud and Khaybar used his blessed hand to change the course of the battles.

Umar ran out of the battle of uhud because he heard rumor Prophet Muhammad (sa) was killed and he abandoned Muslims and Islam on the battlefield.and a verse was revealed condemning him.

4. You will never be his Khalifat.

i am not one of the 12 holy Imams of the Ahlul-Bayt (as),and i am not a prophet.if i claim to be his khalifa,i would become a usurper like those i am condemning and you are honoring.being a khalifa is Allah's choice and should not be done through usurping what belongs to someone Allah (swt) has given imamate and wilayah over the ummah.

5. You will not be buried directly next-to-him Insha Allah.

even though it is my wish,and if i wish i could be buried next to Imam Ali (as) in najaf as many Shia who die will before their death.but you cannot be buried anywhere.may be you'd be buried close to Usthman.and i think i have told you his story and how he was buried.

seriously,you are a moderator and you claim you dont have time,but do you find it worthwhile to bicker instead of continuing a dialogue?is this the example you are setting?

6. You can never have the knowledge of Islam they both had.

Umar said:"if not for (the knowledge of) Ali,Umar would have perished".

which knowledge? is it taraweeh? is it misyar?

7. You will never spend in real terms what they spent in the service of Islam Insha Allah.

i seek to please Allah and get rewarded by Him.not by snatching the caliphate to reward myself!doing good is not an investment you reap with your own hands.you get rewarded by Allah if you're sincere.

8. You can never attain their level of honour with Allah, his Prophet and sincere Muslims till the end of time Insha Allah.

you are not "god".let Allah (swt) decide that.stop idolizing human beings.isn't that "shirk" and you're judging another human being? is that not haram?

9. You will never be the one primarily responsible amongst humans for preserving the Qur'an till eternity after the demise of the Prophet (SAW).

read about what happened when surat tawba was revealed.it was removed from abu bakr to deliver it to Quraysh.the Prophet (sa) sent Imam Ali (as) to disarm him because he was an idol worshipper before becoming Muslim.

10. You will never pay attention to details the way both men did in fleeing from Haram Insha Allah.

i was never an idol worshipper and never would be.and they can never attain that too!

So, tell me why I should waste time with you over them. My intention was to warn you and I have done that.

Fisebilillah indeed!

you are busy arguing.you prefer argument to dialogue,and threats to advice and discussion.

what are you warning me? that you would ban me? if you want me to quit nairaland,just ask me to do.it would save me time and money.and eevryone would get to see what you are:a bigot under the mask!i have done enough for Islam against non-muslims and for the Ahlul-Bayt (as) against Muslims like you.anyone can refer and make use of my contributions.

the owner of nairaland should see the type of person you're.you are driving members away because of your bias and prejudice.

another discussion Maclatunji abandoned and fled like his master in Uhud:

https://www.nairaland.com/948839/silence-betrayal-houlamassacre-syria/2#11473191

if you cannot discuss in a civilized manner for the fear of changing or doubts entering your mind,then avoid discussing altogether.you cannot be issuing threats all the while to anyone who disagree with you.otherwise you'd transform this public forum whereby you would have only yourself to talk to.this is a public forum where people exchange views and opinions and ideas.you cannot restrict freedom of speech.we are not in a wahhabi kingdom.

@Maclatunji

if you want to take part in discussions do so without your threats to ban people.and behaving childishly by throwing personal attacks is not worthwhile doing for a moderator.the issues you have been discussing with LagosShia are centuries old.they did not begin on nairaland.and LagosShia did not start by attacking your person.so why try to mock him and throw personal attacks and compare him with others? are you not fasting?

@LagosShia hahaha! There's a difference between threats and warnings. Go and learn.

I have a good relationship with Shia Muslims. Most are not immature and deluded as you are.

If I warn him, he says I threaten, if I laugh at his provocative posts, he says I mock him. Let me point out to you how deluded you are:

1. You have beaf with people who are dead but whose life's work helped to bring Islam to you.

2. You hate Saudi Arabian government whom these companions of the Sahaba no nothing about .

3. You are fighting me the moderator for telling you that you cannot be allowed to insult the Companions of the Prophet (SAW) and thereby insulting him because what you are saying is that he didn't know the people he had as helpers and you know them better than him!

Crying more than the not-bereaved here- you are.

I have taken the trouble to point out some of these things to you so that you and your lackeys don't come here whining and squealing if/when sanctioned. We know your ways and antics.

Zhul-Fiqar.:
@Maclatunji

if you want to take part in discussions do so without your threats to ban people.and behaving childishly by throwing personal attacks is not worthwhile doing for a moderator.the issues you have been discussing with LagosShia are centuries old.they did not begin on nairaland.and LagosShia did not start by attacking your person.so why try to mock him and throw personal attacks and compare him with others? are you not fasting?

It is simple, whatever he has hidden in the depths of his heart is not my business, let him and you his followers stick to the simple topics that my bosses the good Muslims of Nairaland want addressed. We are confident that Allah will do justice to whoever has been wronged at any point in time. We have no need for clandestine campaigns on behalf of Sahabah that have passed away over 1000 years ago.

Do not insult Sahabah and be reasonable and we shall have no problems. The things I said to LagosShia are applicable to me as well. In that there's no mockery.

maclatunji: @LagosShia hahaha! There's a difference between threats and warnings. Go and learn.

I have a good relationship with Shia Muslims. Most are not immature and deluded as you are.

If I warn him, he says I threaten, if I laugh at his provocative posts, he says I mock him. Let me point out to you how deluded you are:

personal argument= no comment.

1. You have beaf with people who are dead but whose life's work helped to bring Islam to you.

i do not have beaf with them.i have beaf with those who are alive who want to conceal the truth and fabricate history.in doing that,you are disobeying the Quran:

Holy Quran 2:42
"And do not mix the truth with falsehood or conceal the truth while you know [it]".

Holy Quran 40:28
"...Indeed, Allah does not guide one who is a transgressor and a liar".

also how does inventing virtues and idolizing these dead men bring Islam to you?

when you're doing that i am opposed to that because firstly you are lying.secondly you are concealing the truth as you aim to silence anyone who oppose your bid and you accuse them of attacking the dead or slandering them.

most importantly,there is a big crime which is concealed, explaining why you want us to stop saying the truth and opposing your bid to reinvent history to praise these men.these men left a political legacy which promotes their image.and definitely,that goes against islam when you look at the treatment these men in addition to banu ummayya and their evil acts,you are honoring handed the Ahlul-Bayt (as).in the Quran,it is an obligation for every Muslim to love the Ahlul-Bayt (as).the wilayah of Imam Ali (as) is in the Quran and so is his imamate.when you praise those who victimized and oppressed the Ahlul-Bayt (as),you are insulting the memory of the Ahlul-Bayt (as) and concealing the fact that we Muslims should abide by the "two weighty things" left by Prophet Muhammad (sa)-Quran and Ahlul-Bayt (as).when you praise the enemies of Ahlul-Bayt (as),then you are deviating.unfortunately,majority of muslims in Nigeria do not know that.that is my message and it is based on the fact i am Shia Muslim and a lover and follower of Ahlul-Bayt (as).

2. You hate Saudi Arabian government whom these companions of the Sahaba no nothing about .

i hate the saudi government because it is a dictatorial monarchy that is not only causing harm/oppression to its own but to Muslims elsewhere.saudi arabia is supporting extremist wahhabi aka salafist terrorist organizations in pakistan who go on sectarian killing sprees.dont you hear how many Shia Muslims are killed everyday in pakistan and even afghanistan?

wahhabism aka salafism follows the legacy of banu umayyah,enemies of Ahlul-bayt (as).have you not seen the wahhabi mufti of saudi arabia defending yazeed and condemning Imam Hussain (as)?if you are truly Muslims who love Muhammad (sa) and his child (Imam Hussain),how does it feel? does it make you feel good? dont you send salawat on Muhammad (sa) and the Household of Muhammad (sa)?

3. You are fighting me the moderator for telling you that you cannot be allowed to insult the Companions of the Prophet (SAW) and thereby insulting him because what you are saying is that he didn't know the people he had as helpers and you know them better than him!

Crying more than the not-bereaved here- you are.

I have taken the trouble to point out some of these things to you so that you and your lackeys don't come here whining and squealing if/when sanctioned. We know your ways and antics.

personal argument/attack=no comment.

^LOL. #Hehehe.

I think this issue of forming sects based on who was supposed to succeed Muhammed is rather asinine.
I don't understand why it is so impossible for people to simply decide who they think ought to have been the successor without bringing all this division and fighting into the matter,
@lagosshia, as usual no offense, but your fixation on furthering your Shia cause appears extreme and fanatical. I know you have your hadiths to prove that Ali is the right successor and everything but guess what? Sunni Muslims also have their hadiths to prove that Abu Bakr was mentioned as the successor, they also hold onto the fact that the Prophet recommended shura/elections as the best method of making community decisions and so they don't see why the Prophet would decide to appoint a successor based on any other method but the one he had recommended as the best of all.
I believe that even Ali, in the end, gave bay'ah to the Abu Bakr Caliphate and even if you disagree and claim that he did no such thing, at least he lived in peace with Abu Bakr and accepted the decision without waging war against him.
The reason why the party of Ali, Sunni and all the others have failed to just live as Muslims but still want to form cliques and gangs is beyond me.

maclatunji:
3. You are fighting me the moderator for telling you that you cannot be allowed to insult the Companions of the Prophet (SAW) and thereby insulting him because what you are saying is that he didn't know the people he had as helpers and you know them better than him!

Are you serious?

fellis:

Are you serious?

As serious as can be. It would make LagosShia very happy if I don't prevent him from insulting Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman, Aisha etc. He says he is not insulting at all, he is only saying the "truth".

maclatunji:

As serious as can be. It would make LagosShia very happy if I don't prevent him from insulting Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman, Aisha etc. He says he is not insulting at all, he is only saying the "truth".

Everybody has their own version of the truth. The thing is that when it comes to religious discussions, hearing the opinions of those with differing views is almost certainly going to offend us. If for instance I am having a conversation with a Christian about which of our religions is the right way, I would say something like 'Jesus was a prophet of Allah' which he would find insultive to the person of Jesus and he would in turn tell me that Muhammed didn't worship the true God, he worshipped the moon god and I would find this offensive and the two of us would be completely convinced that our beliefs and opinions are the genuine ones.
That is what is happening in this case.
Well, with you being mod I guess the final say lies with you.

^Allah has the final say. However, I understand what you mean.

maclatunji: However, I understand what you mean.

What was the point in making the first statement then?

fellis: I think this issue of forming sects based on who was supposed to succeed Muhammed is rather asinine.
I don't understand why it is so impossible for people to simply decide who they think ought to have been the successor without bringing all this division and fighting into the matter,

those who made themselves a "sect" are those who call themselves "sunni".and the Quran warns against becoming sects and division.the Prophet (sa) did not name anyone "sunni".the Sunnis should tell us where they got their name and branded themselves "Sunni".where did this bid'ah come from? in order to oppose the virtue in being a Shia of Imam Ali (as),it was Muawiya (an enemy of Imam Ali and father of Yazid,the one who ordered the beheading of Imam Hussain,grandson of Prophet Muhammad) who first used the term "ahlus-sunnah wal jama'ah" i.e. "Sunni", to make people different and divide the Muslims.by virtue of the hadith i earlier quoted all Muslims should be "Shia of Ali".going by the meaning of "ahlus-sunnah",there is no need for any muslim to call himself "sunni" or "follower of the sunnah" because all muslims follow the sunnah.in fact we Shia calling ourselves Shia is a sunnah of the Prophet we are following like the Quran describes Prophet Ibrahim (as) as a "Shia of Noah";"Shia" means lover/follower/partisan.and we do admit that and every Muslim must follow the "sunnah" of the Prophet (sa).so there is no need to use the word "sunni" to divide the muslims from the true path and form a sect.

@lagosshia, as usual no offense, but your fixation on furthering your Shia cause appears extreme and fanatical. I know you have your hadiths to prove that Ali is the right successor and everything but guess what? Sunni Muslims also have their hadiths to prove that Abu Bakr was mentioned as the successor,

that is not correct.

they have no hadith where te Prophet (sa) mentioned abu bakr to be successor.but they tons in their own hadith books for us to prove that Imam Ali (as) was appointed.they either conceal or distort the hadiths.but with our able scholars,the truth is out for all to see.

you can please watch this to udnerstand what i am saying:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EC4okSn2-ns&feature=related

they also hold onto the fact that the Prophet recommended shura/elections as the best method of making community decisions and so they don't see why the Prophet would decide to appoint a successor based on any other method but the one he had recommended as the best of all.

the shura excuse is a joke.the Prophet (sa) did not mention anything about shura regarding choosing a successor.in fact it is a big joke because you just need to compare how abu bakr usurped the caliphate,how he appointed umar and how usthman got it.you would see that the three of them paid no attention to shura or whatsoever.it was a coup conducted by a gand of power hungry men who saw the Prophet's (sa) demise as an opportunity to clinch power.

you can review this post to know how the three differently usurped the caliphate:
https://www.nairaland.com/979588/indecent-exposure-hiding-imam-confusion#11303282

I believe that even Ali, in the end, gave bay'ah to the Abu Bakr Caliphate and even if you disagree and claim that he did no such thing, at least he lived in peace with Abu Bakr and accepted the decision without waging war against him.

according to sunnis,Imam Ali (as) did not give bay'ah for six months until after his wife who was bitter about abu bakr passed away.according to Shia that did not happen at all.but it is evident that there was an issue and dispute.

as for living in peace,Imam Ali (as) is an imam whose imamate and wilayah is made by Allah (swt).so whether he is in the office of caliphate as a political and worldly ruler or not,it makes no difference.Truth is clear from falsehood.Prophet Muhammad (sa) did not only make Imam Ali (as) a worldly successor.he is also a spiritual guide whose presence benefited the ummah.he educated the ummah and provided spiritual guidance.in respect to Imam Hassan and Imam Hussain (as),the Prophet (sa) said:"whether they sit or stand,they are two imams".note that any hadith a shia presents to you on an issue of dispute,that hadith is always found in sunni narrations.

The reason why the party of Ali, Sunni and all the others have failed to just live as Muslims but still want to form cliques and gangs is beyond me.

it is a long story.there is the politics and the religious reasons.over time religious differences emerged.take for instance the Sunnis who pray taraweeh during the holy month of ramadan.that is clearly a bid'ah.the Shia refrain from it,thanks to the guidance of the Ahlul-Bayt (as).

maclatunji: ^LOL. #Hehehe.

go and study,you hear? good boy.

fellis:

What was the point in making the first statement then?

Too many people eager to pick anything I say or respond to as evidence of my "tyranny", "love and abuse of power "#LOL.

Allah knows that some people make me laugh hard on Nairaland.

LagosShia:

go and study,you hear? good boy.

Everybody knows you are obsessed with posting the same things again and again. Repeating yourself like a broken record.

What's there to learn other than "be not like LagosShia."

#Funnylikecrazy

maclatunji:

Everybody knows you are obsessed with posting the same things again and again. Repeating yourself like a broken record.

What's there to learn other than "be not like LagosShia."

#Funnylikecrazy

more personal attacks=more no comment.

advice: go and research on these issues and compare both sides.it may be in your benefit and your generations to come.dont be a stiff-neck obsessed with names and idolizing fallible men.

LagosShia:
those who made themselves a "sect" are those who call themselves "sunni".and the Quran warns against becoming sects and division.the Prophet (sa) did not name anyone "sunni".the Sunnis should tell us where they got their name and branded themselves "Sunni".where did this bid'ah come from? in order to oppose the virtue in being a Shia of Imam Ali (as),it was Muawiya (an enemy of Imam Ali and father of Yazid,the one who ordered the beheading of Imam Hussain,grandson of Prophet Muhammad) who first used the term "ahlus-sunnah wal jama'ah" i.e. "Sunni", to make people different and divide the Muslims.by virtue of the hadith i earlier quoted all Muslims should be "Shia of Ali".going by the meaning of "ahlus-sunnah",there is no need for any muslim to call himself "sunni" or "follower of the sunnah" because all muslims follow the sunnah.in fact we Shia calling ourselves Shia is a sunnah of the Prophet we are following like the Quran describes Prophet Ibrahim (as) as a "Shia of Noah";"Shia" means lover/follower/partisan.and we do admit that and every Muslim must follow the "sunnah" of the Prophet (sa).so there is no need to use the word "sunni" to divide the muslims from the true path and form a sect.
that is not correct.

You said there is no need for Muslims to call themselves Sunni because they are already supposed to follow the Sunnah so it is useless and wrong. How do you not see that the same thing applies to Shia and the following of Ali? Can't you simply be a follower of Ali without labelling yourself the way you claim Sunni can follow the Sunnah without labelling themselves?

LagosShia:
they have no hadith where te Prophet (sa) mentioned abu bakr to be successor.but they tons in their own hadith books for us to prove that Imam Ali (as) was appointed.they either conceal or distort the hadiths.but with our able scholars,the truth is out for all to see.

I have read those hadiths, that is why I said they exist. You see, your belief that Sunnis distorted the hadiths or concealed the hadiths is just that; your belief. Or you and your fellow Shiites' belief. The Sunnis would claim that the hadiths are true, that they are not distorted in any way so in the end it is your word against theirs.

LagosShia: Truth is clear from falsehood.Prophet Muhammad he educated the ummah and provided spiritual guidance.in respect to Imam Hassan and Imam Hussain (as),the Prophet (sa) said:"whether they sit or stand,they are two imams".note that any hadith a shia presents to you on an issue of dispute, that hadith is always found in sunni narrations

That is not true, I mean the bolded. Only some of the hadiths are found to be in sunni narrations and these hadiths are usually interpreted by the sunni differently from how the shia interprete them. That nairaland link you inserted for me to read is definitely going to be biased in favor of the shia opinion and that is why I won't read it, sorry.
I admit that I have not really put serious effort into learning about the shia/sunni divisions largely because I consider the whole thing to be mindless but I have a rudimentary knowledge of the issue and if I want to expand on this knowledge, I will do so from an objective standpoint, not the shia standpoint so please stop posting videos and links to convince me. Sorry again.

LagosShia:
it is a long story.there is the politics and the religious reasons.over time religious differences emerged.take for instance the Sunnis who pray taraweeh yada yada yada

Whatever. Nothing validates your decision to form sects in Islam.

maclatunji:

Too many people eager to pick anything I say or respond to as evidence of my "tyranny", "love and abuse of power "#LOL.

Allah knows that some people make me laugh hard on Nairaland.

Dearest mac, am I one of those people?

fellis:

Dearest mac, am I one of those people?

No you are not. I perceive you as someone who seeks to understand an issue and address it objectively. I have nothing against that at all. It is fair enough by me.

fellis:
You said there is no need for Muslims to call themselves Sunni because they are already supposed to follow the Sunnah so it is useless and wrong. How do you not see that the same thing applies to Shia and the following of Ali? Can't you simply be a follower of Ali without labelling yourself the way you claim Sunni can follow the Sunnah without labelling themselves?

all Muslims follow the sunnah.so you cannot distinguish yourself and form a sect based on that.it does not make sense.

all those who claim or claimed to be Muslims,did not love Imam Ali (a) and the Ahlul-Bayt (as) even though the Quran and the Prophet (sa) makes that obligatory.the Prophet (sa) even make being a "Shia of Ali" a condition for being a believers.note that there is a difference between being a Muslim and being a believer.a Muslim is anyone who recites the shahada.but to be a believer,only Allah (swt)knows.and from all evidence available you cannot be a believer and iman has not reached your heart when you are pleased and satisfied with the enemies of the Ahlul-Bayt (as).in the case of the Ahlul-Bayt (as) you cannot claim to love them and still love people like yazid,muawiya,umar and abu bakr.it does not make sense because you are either on their path or on the path of their accursed enemies.

I have read those hadiths, that is why I said they exist.

my sister,there is not one hadith in Sunni books that claims the Prophet (sa) appointed abu bakr to be his successor.had there being,they would have long used it to contest.but it does not exist.they can find hadiths to prove abu bakr was this and that but never that he was appointed by the Prophet (sa).in fact that would demolish all their excuses like shura.

You see, your belief that Sunnis distorted the hadiths or concealed the hadiths is just that; your belief. Or you and your fellow Shiites' belief. The Sunnis would claim that the hadiths are true, that they are not distorted in any way so in the end it is your word against theirs.

i am not saying the hadiths are not true.those are hadiths Shia refer to in Sunni books to make our case.the Sunnis either hide them and pretend they do not exist or they distort the meaning.if you would have watched what i earlier presented you'd understand what i mean by "distort".

That is not true, I mean the bolded. Only some of the hadiths are found to be in sunni narrations and these hadiths are usually interpreted by the sunni differently from how the shia interprete them. That nairaland link you inserted for me to read is definitely going to be biased in favor of the shia opinion and that is why I won't read it, sorry.

the Shia present all their hadiths from Sunni books.yes,Sunnis would interprete them differently and that is where we can contend in order to demonstrate who is right.that is where the contention lies.the link i presented is a post by me.

I admit that I have not really put serious effort into learning about the shia/sunni divisions largely because I consider the whole thing to be mindless but I have a rudimentary knowledge of the issue and if I want to expand on this knowledge, I will do so from an objective standpoint, not the shia standpoint so please stop posting videos and links to convince me. Sorry again.

well,if you want to look from an objective point of view and you consider yourself neutral,you'd still need to listen to what both sides have to say and then compare in order to reach a conclusion.

Whatever. Nothing validates your decision to form sects in Islam.

i did not form any sect nor do i follow any.i believe being a Shia is a prophetic command just as Prophet Ibrahim (as) was a "shia" of Prophet Noah (as).i believe being Shia is what gives true interpretation and udnerstanding of Islam purely as taught by Prophet Muhammad (sa) and the Ahlul-Bayt (as).

maclatunji:

No you are not.

Phew!
Good.

Lagosshia: Everything he said

Abeg, I can't keep going back and forth on this thing.
But Lagosshia your overzealousness makes you seem like an extremist sometimes. Take a break once in a while.