ea7: That is what is implied here.
Procreate=create(in this context) . Ur point?. If you choose to open that can of worms, i might as well dump it on your head. Who made God? If he is unncreated then that means somethings can be un created making your argument that we need a creator baseless, if he is then we ask who made that cre8or ad infifnitum.

hmm!!! i think you are overthinking and missing the point in totality- uve skipped a boundary. i will break it down for you with a simple example.

Man made Machines e.g a Robot
Man thus created a Robot
Logically Man is God unto the Robot

now lets go a step further;
assume this Robot was built with programs, processors and all the gimmicks necessary to make it seemingly think, it can think and act independently e.g deep Blue. in other words it has "intelligence"
now armed with this "intelligence" it begins to question who made it? if Man made me? who made Man? and who made the one that Made man and it goes on and on and on-- (till it short circuits ) and such it decides there is no Creator
it has forgotten the fundamental fact (Boundaries -lower and upper limits) Man made it, as such his allegiance is to His God -Man. anything out of that thought process is folly.

Kay 17:
Every man is a product of his environment, of his Source. Evil/imperfection is imprinted into him as a potential to be realized. Why can't a man fly, but yet perpetuate the most horrific acts??

@Kay 17
are you evil?, are you a serial Killer?, are you an armed robber?
if you arent any of these does that mean you are perfect? no the answers is probably you chose not to. You cant blame the imperfections of the world on God, the evil acts are carried out by Men who chose to do them. Every one born with the ability to do Right or Wrong, dont ever blame the wrong choices of certain individuals on God.

btw - u r derailing my thread

@snthesis that's nice. Let me do you one better.let man be a seed and God a plant. Or let man be poo and god an ass or let man be a virus and god the host, they are all analogies and uh-the computer is right.
But analgy failure, we see comouters being made, we use computers. Computers are not sentient. Man and computers interact. There is evidence for man around. We do not see universesbeing made, we do ot see men popping into existence, we do not have evidence of man being created. Man is organic computer is not.
Analogy breakdown.

mkmyers45: so he created him clearly knowing (omnipotent) what the devil will do and yet created him. #WhataGod

God gave us freewill which is evident as you are questioning his existence right now. He did not create robots.

ea7: @snthesis that's nice. Let me do you one better.let man be a seed and God a plant. Or let man be poo and god an ass or let man be a virus and god the host, they are all analogies and uh-the computer is right.
But analgy failure, we see comouters being made, we use computers. Computers are not sentient. Man and computers interact. There is evidence for man around. We do not see universesbeing made, we do ot see men popping into existence, we do not have evidence of man being created. Man is organic computer is not.
Analogy breakdown.

im sorry , ur post/analogy is not logical
do a simple sequence or better yet prove the illogicality of my sequence

snthesis:
im sorry , ur post/analogy is not logical
do a simple sequence or better yet prove the illogicality of my sequence

okay.
In ur analogy man=god
pc=man
but in rl men are spawned from other men and computers assembled in factories by men. If a computer were sentient, it would know man exists by the fingers on the key board if nothing else. We know God by...um...
2) The reasoning in my post about infnite creators is sound. There is no evidence for a creator in real life, if we postulate that there must be a creator then that creator must have a creator. Direct answer pls. All analogies=cool story bro.

jmoore:



God gave us freewill which is evident as you are questioning his existence right now. He did not create robots.

God have us free will for us to use to obey him or he will roast us forever. He seems to want robots by force anyway.

@Op & people with similar agenda(convincing the atheists)

Is it really true that the average atheist has got sound and logical reasoning than the average theist? The more i see theists bring forth such proposition as that of the OP, the more i am inclined to believe that the atheist are in fact smarter. Why? Well, look at the ops post. Here,the op delves into one of the most heated argument in the history of philosophy,science and religion i.e God vs no God, or creationism vs no creationism. Yet, the op begins with: "atheists do you have any question about your maker-God". Knowing fully that an atheist does not accept the God construct. In any logical reasoning, the first step is to establish a premise. Give strong arguments why such premise must be true. The soundness of the conclusion drawn,depends on the soundness of the arguments put in defense of the premise. To expect the atheist to accept the possibility of God, is to firstly provide irrefutable proof why such construct is viable. the absence of such, Simply leads to never ending debates with no common platform to fall back to.

ea7: okay.
In ur analogy man=god
pc=man
but in rl men are spawned from other men and computers assembled in factories by men. If a computer were sentient, it would know man exists by the fingers on the key board if nothing else. We know God by...um...
2) The reasoning in my post about infnite creators is sound. There is no evidence for a creator in real life, if we postulate that there must be a creator then that creator must have a creator. Direct answer pls. All analogies=cool story bro.

smh

go and read on Deep Blue

i gave u a very simple analogy and u chose not to understand- you chose rather to b blind.i put it to you in a logical form associated with wat obtains around earth at this tyme, devoid of believes,religion and yet you still chose not to comprehend.

snthesis:
@Kay 17
are you evil?, are you a serial Killer?, are you an armed robber?
if you arent any of these does that mean you are perfect? no the answers is probably you chose not to. You cant blame the imperfections of the world on God, the evil acts are carried out by Men who chose to do them. Every one born with the ability to do Right or Wrong, dont ever blame the wrong choices of certain individuals on God.

btw - u r derailing my thread

Yes and imperfect as the world around me. My question is since we are not self caused, we are ultimately not responsible for it but goes back to our Source. I think if God is an omnimax and good, evil will not come from him but since evil/inperfection exists now, then there can't be a perfect all good Source in other words God. It could be the Devil though.

snthesis:
smh

go and read on Deep Blue

i gave u a very simple analogy and u chose not to understand- you chose rather to b blind.i put it to you in a logical form associated with wat obtains around earth at this tyme, devoid of believes,religion and yet you still chose not to comprehend.

I am telling you that analogy is flawed. If i say man is poop and god an ass does that make it true,

usisky: @Op & people with similar agenda(convincing the atheists)

Is it really true that the average atheist has got sound and logical reasoning than the average theist? The more i see theists bring forth such proposition as that of the OP, the more i am inclined to believe that the atheist are in fact smarter. Why? Well, look at the ops post. Here,the op delves into one of the most heated argument in the history of philosophy,science and religion i.e God vs no God, or creationism vs no creationism. Yet, the op begins with: "atheists do you have any question about your maker-God". Knowing fully that an atheist does not accept the God construct. In any logical reasoning, the first step is to establish a premise. Give strong arguments why such premise must be true. The soundness of the conclusion drawn,depends on the soundness of the arguments put in defense of the premise. To expect the atheist to accept the possibility of God, is to firstly provide irrefutable proof why such construct is viable. the absence of such, Simply leads to never ending debates with no common platform to fall back to.

can you fault the logical sequence below
Atheism: the theory that God does not exist

hmm!!! i think you are overthinking and missing the point in totality- uve skipped a boundary. i will break it down for you with a simple example.

Man made Machines e.g a Robot
Man thus created a Robot
Logically Man is God unto the Robot

now lets go a step further;
assume this Robot was built with programs, processors and all the gimmicks necessary to make it seemingly think, it can think and act independently e.g deep Blue. in other words it has "intelligence"
now armed with this "intelligence" it begins to question who made it? if Man made me? who made Man? and who made the one that Made man and it goes on and on and on-- (till it short circuits ) and such it decides there is no Creator
it has forgotten the fundamental fact (Boundaries -lower and upper limits) Man made it, as such his allegiance is to His God -Man. anything out of that thought process is folly.

ea7:
I am telling you that analogy is flawed. If i say man is poop and god an ass does that make it true,

everythin i stated is true and can not be flawed

Man made Machines
thus Man is a God unto the Machines

it can only be flawed if the Machines were self created without any assistance from Man
then the Machines can clearly state Man is not its God

snthesis:
everythin i stated is true and can not be flawed

Man made Machines
thus Man is a God unto the Machines

it can only be flawed if the Machines were self created without any assistance from Man
then the Machines can clearly state Man is not its God

hey guys, god is on nairaland. He is omniscient and is debating like an idiot. Well then HE WHO CANNOT BE WRONG. HERE IS A FLAW MAN OS SELF CREATING.

snthesis:
everythin i stated is true and can not be flawed

Man made Machines
thus Man is a God unto the Machines

it can only be flawed if the Machines were self created without any assistance from Man
then the Machines can clearly state Man is not its God

hey guys, god is on nairaland. He is omniscient and is debating like an idiot. Well then HE WHO CANNOT BE WRONG. HERE IS A FLAW MAN IS SELF CREATING.
We see men as coming from other men. We have evolution and big bang theory.

ea7:
hey guys, god is on nairaland. He is omniscient and is debating like an idiot. Well then HE WHO CANNOT BE WRONG. HERE IS A FLAW MAN IS SELF CREATING.
We see men as coming from other men. We have evolution and big bang theory.

and wu created the very 1st Man

snthesis:
can you fault the logical sequence below
Atheism: the theory that God does not exist

hmm!!! i think you are overthinking and missing the point in totality- uve skipped a boundary. i will break it down for you with a simple example.

Man made Machines e.g a Robot
Man thus created a Robot
Logically Man is God unto the Robot

now lets go a step further;
assume this Robot was built with programs, processors and all the gimmicks necessary to make it seemingly think, it can think and act independently e.g deep Blue. in other words it has "intelligence"
now armed with this "intelligence" it begins to question who made it? if Man made me? who made Man? and who made the one that Made man and it goes on and on and on-- (till it short circuits ) and such it decides there is no Creator
it has forgotten the fundamental fact (Boundaries -lower and upper limits) Man made it, as such his allegiance is to His God -Man. anything out of that thought process is folly.

1) I fault the theists and the atheists for not providing any proof to substatiate their position/decision.

2) i adressed theist in my post cos you are a theist and the originator of this thread.

3) the robot analogy- incoherent with logic: assume that such a robot is able to develope sophisticated thought patterns like that of humans, would it find it difficult accepting it was designed by a human? NO! WHY? Because it would've witnessed such a human re-creating its kind(robot).that will be sufficient proof.
in the absence of an irrefutable proof from such a God, questions such as: 1)why God rather than gods? 2) Why there is suffering and evil? will continue to be asked.
The only way to prove such a God, is if the God Himself provides a proof capable of withstanding scientific scrutiny.

usisky:

1) I fault the theists and the atheists for not providing any proof to substatiate their position/decision.

2) i adressed theist in my post cos you are a theist and the originator of this thread.

3) the robot analogy- incoherent with logic: assume that such a robot is able to develope sophisticated thought patterns like that of humans, would it find it difficult accepting it was designed by a human? NO! WHY? Because it would've witnessed such a human re-creating its kind(robot).that will be sufficient proof.
in the absence of an irrefutable proof from such a God, questions such as: 1)why God rather than gods? 2) Why there is suffering and evil? will continue to be asked.
The only way to prove such a God, is if the God Himself provides a proof capable of withstanding scientific scrutiny.

the proof is in definition
its either Yes or No, theres no inbetween.

its either you were created in which case you acknowledge a Maker/ God
or You were selfcreated in which case you are God.

can Man allude to being Self-Created

2) let me clarify further on your assumption- a robot is made on Earth and then sent to the Moon but with an indepth programming on how to sustain itself with the resources provided and we (Man) watch the daily activities of the Robot (akin to watching Big brother. once the Robot has reached the destination a signal is sent to activate it and the entertainment begins.

snthesis:
and wu created the very 1st Man

since you are smart enough to use wiki , i implore you to wiki evolutionary theory. Theory in the scientific meaning.
And I said if you want to open that who created who created sh.i.te, i wil ask you this who created God? Apply ochams razor. The universe is not a factory that someone creates stuff, we apply that to our environment where we see things caused and created by man. We do not see universes made by god. The buck has to stop somewhere, I am content with stopping it at universe till further notice.
@ ususky are you a deist or agnostic? Thanks for helping me articulate my thoughts in your response.

snthesis:
the proof is in definition
its either Yes or No, theres no inbetween.

its either you were created in which case you acknowledge a Maker/ God
or You were selfcreated in which case you are God.

can Man allude to being Self-Created

2) let me clarify further on your assumption- a robot is made on Earth and then sent to the Moon but with an indepth programming on how to sustain itself with the resources provided and we (Man) watch the daily activities of the Robot (akin to watching Big brother. once the Robot has reached the destination a signal is sent to activate it and the entertainment begins.

cool story bro.

ea7: since you are smart enough to use wiki , i implore you to wiki evolutionary theory. Theory in the scientific meaning.
And I said if you want to open that who created who created sh.i.te, i wil ask you this who created God? Apply ochams razor. The universe is not a factory that someone creates stuff, we apply that to our environment where we see things caused and created by man. We do not see universes made by god. The buck has to stop somewhere, I am content with stopping it at universe till further notice.
@ ususky are you a deist or agnostic? Thanks for helping me articulate my thoughts in your response.

u havent answered my question
Wu created the 1st man?

snthesis:
u havent answered my question
Wu created the 1st man?

Who is wu, and is he your God?lol
now srsly, did u check evolution, man and other modern apes branched out from a common ancestor.
If you mean the origin of life, there is no strong theory yet.
And self created is a silly concept. The effect causes the cause which causes the effect. Do you make sense to yourself?

@synthesis u started this thread right ? I think u shuld answer questions without using insulting words ,even if they make jest of u ,u shuld, as a gud xtian be able to defend urself without using negative words. See urself as a teacher dat wants to pass knowledge or an evangelist dat wants to win souls 4 christ. They can learn 4rm u and u can equally learn 4rm them. Dat is one big problem with xtians they are too proud and always angry over nothing. They do not biliv in ur God concept is not a crime .ur focus shuld be,trying to convince them with luv

ea7: Who is wu, and is he your God?lol
now srsly, did u check evolution, man and other modern apes branched out from a common ancestor.
If you mean the origin of life, there is no strong theory yet.
And self created is a silly concept. The effect causes the cause which causes the effect. Do you make sense to yourself?

can u confirm- ur believe/lack of believe is in Evolution?.

lets b logical - "the effect causes the cause which causes the effect"
"if u mean origin of life, there is no strong theory yet" - and you are living your life waiting for that so called "strong theory" smh

@Op
i really doubt if i've got the energy and time to continue this millenia old argument of "God" against "no God". It doesn't take a genious to realize that a different kind of input is needed to put an end to this endless argument.
I do believe in an intelligence behind the grand artistry(design) we observe in our world today. I will be doing a great injustice to the accumulated human knowledge/experience if i allude all these observable phenomenon to fortuitous consequence. That said; how do you equate such intelligence to a Particular designer without any emperical proof to justify such? Think about it.

@ea7
you are most welcome.

no, i am neither a deist nor agnostic.
i am a theist. But think of me as a fusion of all of them(theism + atheism + deism + agnosticism + x).
i know it sounds strange, but believe me, in my quest for truth- i had passed through the thought line of the above mentioned concepts i.e i had the tedency. But i am glad today all that is history. I owe it to the most cognizant.

@snthesis

lets define the word God- it is a word attributed for the Creator of the heaven and the earth (everything above, on and under).

And what can you bring to the table to prove that this "God" is indeed the creator of heaven and earth other than what your bible says? Hmmmm?

from your question: you ask which maker? i need a honest and strightforward answer from you- how were you created? did u make yourself? if you did, can you reproduce this seemingly inconsequential feat? i await your response, thanks.

I have never claimed to have knowledge of my creation/evolution but i know more than enough to convince me that i wasn't created when some jobless bored deity who has nothing important to do decided to blow air into sand and thus. . .created mankind. What rubbish!

" Do i have Proof of it's existence" i will give a simple analogy bet you have gadgets/tools, lets look at one of the simplest a ball point pen, if you found a pen by the roadside, wud it b logical to assume it came there by chance? your first inkling (inborn) would be to acknowledge that the pen was designed and fabricated for a purpose, IT WAS MADE. you dont need to go to china to see it produced right in front of you to believe that it has a maker.

You've got to be $hitting me. Is this supposed to be a "logical" argument?

harakiri: @snthesis

And what can you bring to the table to prove that this "God" is indeed the creator of heaven and earth other than what your bible says? Hmmmm?

what i bring to the table is simple- the works of His Hands, they are all around you, marvel and being in Awe.the simplest of creatures could never have been designed by accident. its easier for a biro to be accidently created than for an amoeba to be created and yet when we see a biro we acknowledge that it was made and cant seem to fathom that a greater Being made You.

harakiri: @snthesis

You've got to be $hitting me. Is this supposed to be a "logical" argument?

its either you were created in which case you acknowledge a Maker/ God
or You were selfcreated in which case you are God

what i sense from Atheist is a form of pride "i am logical", "i am intelligent"

since you are of the denial of a Creator, do u claim to have made ur self? if you did, did u choOse ur features, ur RACE, ETC. AND THE ANSWER IS OBVIOUS nO, nO NO..... MEANING U R HELPLESS TO UR FATE- IF YOU DIDNT CREATE URSELF IT IMPLIES THAT YOU WERE MADE AND HAVE A GOD.

snthesis:
what i bring to the table is simple- the works of His Hands, they are all around you, marvel and being in Awe.the simplest of creatures could never have been designed by accident. its easier for a biro to be accidently created than for an amoeba to be created and yet when we see a biro we acknowledge that it was made and cant seem to fathom that a greater Being made You.




its either you were created in which case you acknowledge a Maker/ God
or You were selfcreated in which case you are God

what i sense from Atheist is a form of pride "i am logical", "i am intelligent"

since you are of the denial of a Creator, do u claim to have made ur self? if you did, did u choOse ur features, ur RACE, ETC. AND THE ANSWER IS OBVIOUS nO, nO NO..... MEANING U R HELPLESS TO UR FATE- IF YOU DIDNT CREATE URSELF IT IMPLIES THAT YOU WERE MADE AND HAVE A GOD.

Lol@kettle calling pot black. Who is the arrogant one "I can't be wrong"? Your own words. Biros are made in factories, we know that. When you see a child who do you ask fo, their maker or their parents? You promised us Logic here, self caused is illogical and irrational. An effect cannot trigger it's cause. Look i am done with you, you are so smug and self satisfied in your own ignorance. It all boils down to, I don't know so goddidit. If I throw an orange on the wall and it makes a mark, I am sure someone like you will say it must have been by design, and again who designed God? The one's animals who survived survived and adapted to their environment, no design there just chance at work.

ea7: Lol@kettle calling pot black. Who is the arrogant one "I can't be wrong"? Your own words. Biros are made in factories, we know that. When you see a child who do you ask fo, their maker or their parents? You promised us Logic here, self caused is illogical and irrational. An effect cannot trigger it's cause. Look i am done with you, you are so smug and self satisfied in your own ignorance. It all boils down to, I don't know so goddidit. If I throw an orange on the wall and it makes a mark, I am sure someone like you will say it must have been by design, and again who designed God? The one's animals who survived survived and adapted to their environment, no design there just chance at work.

BE LOGICAL
a biro is made in factories (i.e a greater being than the Biro)
biros dont make biros
Humans Procreate
but the Human Species was made by a higher Being i.e. GOD!!!!!

snthesis:
BE LOGICAL
a biro is made in factories (i.e a greater being than the Biro)
biros dont make biros
Humans Procreate
but the Human Species was made by a higher Being i.e. GOD!!!!!

Let me translate your logic 1+1=2, therefore a+a=b therefore the sky is blue. Biros dn't make biros but humans make humans. What's the relationship?
You shout be logical, who made God then, you haven't answered?

"Humans make Humans" is that d best you could come up with, smh

Let me give another analogy
You come into a room to behold a marvelous Painting, ur first ask wud be wow, who's work is this? Y, cos u instinctively know it was created.

Now if u integrate this to the lovely Scenaries around you, you see the works of His hand at every turn and yet it doesn't sound illogical that you think it was as a result of an accident, rather than the Works of a MasterCraftsman- God.

snthesis: "Humans make Humans" is that d best you could come up with, smh

Jesus christ you are dumb (no offense to stupid people). Humans do make humans through s.x.

Let me give another analogy
You come into a room to behold a marvelous Painting, ur first ask wud be wow, who's work is this? Y, cos u instinctively know it was created.

Now if u integrate this to the lovely Scenaries around you, you see the works of His hand at every turn and yet it doesn't sound illogical that you think it was as a result of an accident, rather than the Works of a MasterCraftsman- God.

jack 65 was right, you ARE a joke. You can't even write properly. The analogy is the same, we see people making these things so it's natural to ask who made this painting.