mkmyers45: where in the bible are we told we had free-will? you are a fool! God is not beyond human reasoning or then why do follow what you will never understand?

who be we? I hope you are not including yourself. Its lyke i said before:you are not entitled to any explanation, i choose to believe and if it pains you that much i believe there is a transformer in your environment, just go and hug it! PS: if you are in a debate with someone do not call them names, the n0 1 rule of arguement is that you attack the statement and not the personality. Failiure to do that renders your point invalid and you immature.

Impulse80: who be we? I hope you are not including yourself. Its lyke i said before:you are not entitled to any explanation, i choose to believe and if it pains you that much i believe there is a transformer in your environment, just go and hug it! PS: if you are in a debate with someone do not call them names, the n0 1 rule of arguement is that you attack the statement and not the personality. Failiure to do that renders your point invalid and you immature.

Asking God's creation to hug a transformer is certainly mature ryt? I wonder how many souls you've won for the lawd.

They are very naïve and they always deceive themselves. On their death bed they will believe.

FrenchyL: They are very naïve and they always deceive themselves. On their death bed they will believe.

believe what exactly?

Mavrick2012: If "God created everythin" dat mins he equaly creatd "satan".d foundamentalist argue dat God creatd satan clean but satan became "corupted",for goodnes sake how can satan 4m no where sudenly bcom curupted(wen "evil" existd nowhere in d whole univers),wat it mins is dat God depositd evil insid him(since satan couldnt hav conjure evil 4m nowhere),i.e God can deposit evil, God creatd evil,God contains evil,God is evil.to cut d whol story short,d concept of d origin of evil in satan is logicaly absurd,so i dnt believ in bot.

sir the god of this world has indeed blinded your eyes, that in looking you can not see. What a wasted generation! But thank you Jesus, there is hope.

Jack65:

Hey no need to get angry yet! We are just having a conversation. If your faith cant handle the scrutny then that should tell you something.

My question is, if god is omnipotent and omnipresent then he should know that evil will turn back to bit him in the as$, so why create it in the first place? The same aply to free will, why give someone free will but then go on to create hell where you intend to punish that person for using the free will. Does it make sense to you, if you are inteligent you should be able to question your belief.

Don't fooled, god does not make sense. Food for thought: if god is willing to stop evil but not able then he is not omnipotent, if he is able but not willing then he is malevolent, if he is niether willing nor able then why call him god.?

your intelligence and nice manner of addressing issues just earned you my respect. Thank you
To our discussion, He (GOD) knew what was going to happen. man, been an imperfect being compared to His Creator who is the only perfect being, and carrying only a minute percent of His makers spirit, have a great tendency to fail (to use his free will wrongly) or succeed (use it rightly) in his great test. The Bible told us he (The first man) was told to eat any fruit of all the trees in the garden except for one. God knew they were going to fail and He had already made a plan for their salvation even before they failed. HE had already seen everything. And point of correction my bro, God didn't create hell for man, nah! He created it for the fallen angels who rebelled against Him, but they swore never to go burn alone, that's why they are using every means to trick man into disobey ing God too so man can end up there with them.

mkmyers45: Hmmm Certainly Jesus will talk back this way?

nah! My bad. He's God, am human, an imperfect being yet to be made perfect, with a high tendency to fall daily in my struggles to be like Him. My bad!

Let's break things down, eating from a tree of knowledge wasn't the sin, because knowledge is not bad, right but that act od disobedience.

My question is since God is not bound by anything, rule, or morality or by necessity, why didnt he forget them on that spot?

*mistake coRrected

Did He? I dont think He did, He only gave them their privacy to write their test without any invigilation

Da-unashamed:

your intelligence and nice manner of addressing issues just earned you my respect. Thank you
To our discussion, He (GOD) knew what was going to happen. man, been an imperfect being compared to His Creator who is the only perfect being, and carrying only a minute percent of His makers spirit, have a great tendency to fail (to use his free will wrongly) or succeed (use it rightly) in his great test. The Bible told us he (The first man) was told to eat any fruit of all the trees in the garden except for one. God knew they were going to fail and He had already made a plan for their salvation even before they failed. HE had already seen everything. And point of correction my bro, God didn't create hell for man, nah! He created it for the fallen angels who rebelled against Him, but they swore never to go burn alone, that's why they are using every means to trick man into disobey ing God too so man can end up there with them.

My brother, your explanation is not satisfactory at all. Infact this question is one of the reason (including the fact that prayer doesn't work) I started doubting gods existence before becoming an Apatheist.

According to you god knew that man will because we are an imperfect being. Firstly how can something so imperfect come from something so perfect ? I god is so perfect and powerfull then why didn't he make his creation perfect ?

Also if god is omniscient that means he knows everything, past present and future. That means he know already that man will fail the test so why test him at all. I mean if you are a father of a 1 year old boy would you leave a sharp object like a knife or a razor near that child and tell him not to touch it. Why did god put that tree in that garden, was it necessary to test them knowing they were like children that don't even know they were nakd. Also where was god when satan was tempting then.

You should really be asking questions and not defending god because you will never make any sense. Unless god is not omnipotent none of this questions can be answered. The only reasonable conclusion is that god did not see this coming and that means he is not all-knowing.

Anyway, I am just making this analogy for the sake of this conversation. I will need a really solid proof to conveince me that all these stories are not fables.

Havent seen much evidence so far that these nl ones in particular dont believe in the devil.

*stumbles on thread*
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'Atheists satanists' whatever that means nko? Seems no one talked about it

Jack65:

My brother, your explanation is not satisfactory at all. Infact this question is one of the reason (including the fact that prayer doesn't work) I started doubting gods existence before becoming an Apatheist.

According to you god knew that man will because we are an imperfect being. Firstly how can something so imperfect come from something so perfect ? I god is so perfect and powerfull then why didn't he make his creation perfect ?

Also if god is omniscient that means he knows everything, past present and future. That means he know already that man will fail the test so why test him at all. I mean if you are a father of a 1 year old boy would you leave a sharp object like a knife or a razor near that child and tell him not to touch it. Why did god put that tree in that garden, was it necessary to test them knowing they were like children that don't even know they were nakd. Also where was god when satan was tempting then.

You should really be asking questions and not defending god because you will never make any sense. Unless god is not omnipotent none of this questions can be answered. The only reasonable conclusion is that god did not see this coming and that means he is not all-knowing.

Anyway, I am just making this analogy for the sake of this conversation. I will need a really solid proof to conveince me that all these stories are not fables.

When you are done on earth and open your eyes in the great beyond , you will know better but it might be too late. The Bible says' A fool man says in his heart that there is no God' so stop fooling yourself and make a necessary adjustment before it is too late.I cry enough for you o o o o

@jack65

Did God tempt man? no.
when growing up a baby knows no concept of respect.
But by age 8 , a child learns respect and reverence for his parents and elders.
The training begins by letting the child know that they are boundaries in the house.
e.g
This is Daddy's seat at table,dont sit there to eat.
Dont enter Daddy's room .
Knock before you enter.
etc.
The child learns all this restrictions to his freedom but accepts them.
Do those restrictions count as temptation?
at age 8 months you cant tell a baby about limits. Baby can walk into Daddy's room,
cry at anytime for food, etc .. but at age 8 yrs if that child tries it he'll get a good spanking or sharp talking to.

are these restrictions? think well.

^^

"Don't go there"

"Sit!"

Are commands, and these impose restrictions. Restriction is a limitation to the options available. The 8yr is restricted from Dad's space thru discipline.

However gaps in discipline could trigger temptation. Flaunting the source of temptation is equally temptation

@abve wat point hav u made/makng! Succintly put,vis-a-vis my previous statement . "flaunting the source of temptation is temptation? " - wat meaneth this! .

Like having the Tree of knowledge in the centre of the garden where Adama and eve can see it often and think abt it.

@kay who owned eden? Adam or God. Back 2 d child example earlier. You dont know God's original plan 4 having tht tree there. Dyu know d tree of Life was also in d Garden? My guess, is God ddnt tell them of the tree of life.! But both trees were put there 4 man. Adam was created in God's image but he was a spiritual baby, God was traing him, in d Bible you see tht God promotes and rewards as his people attain standards, if Adam had passed his tests and bagged his diploma in obedience,i'm sure he wud hav partaken of the tree of life and knowledge of Good n evil. Som of adam's traing: responsibility: thru work. Adam tended d garden. Promotion: God gave him a wife , after , adam had learnt how to work. Next: respect/reverence/patience/self control: dont touch God's emblem in d garden. Note: adam wasnt tempted by the devil but eve . Was it God who tempted them or d devil? I guess , to u, if a Dad tells a child not enter Daddy's room without knockg, tht wud b a temptation and Dad wud b an evil Dad! The child can't learn reverence and respect without an opportunity to exercise or loyalty (or disrespect).

^^ but babies begin to obey through conditioning. If you instruct a baby to stop suckin its lips, it wld obviously disobey you, but the punishment you inflict will serve as a reminder the next time. So the baby associates a reward with obedience and therefore obey.

Same with Adam's case, Adam is said to be a spiritual baby and as all babies do, they don't handle responsibilities well. They will definitely make errors.

Kay 17: ^^ but babies begin to obey through conditioning. If you instruct a baby to stop suckin its lips, it wld obviously disobey you, but the punishment you inflict will serve as a reminder the next time. So the baby associates a reward with obedience and therefore obey.

2.) u dnt tell a baby to desist frm an action except d baby or person has the ability to obey.
Same with Adam's case, Adam is said to be a spiritual baby and as all babies do, they don't handle responsibilities well. They will definitely make errors.

if ur tryg to twst d point ur on your own.
You dnt tell a knew born babe to desists frm an activity except its for d babies good even if d baby doesnt understand y - then. The baby may not even hav d capacity to understand Y , wen u instruct him. The baby doesnt need to understand Y to obey. Because even if d baby understands Y, it still wont change the rule.
So instruction isnt evil. And instruction is gvn because the instructed doesnt hav knowledge to choose better. If a baby plays with matches he cannot see the end result of dat action, so he dabbles in it. But after his fingers ar burnt his knowledge is now complete. He now knows d full cycle of wat can happen if he plays with fire. He also has regret and suffers loss. The easiest way is if sb tht knows the consequence of an action advices the baby. Which is wat God did to adam.

"u dnt tell a baby to desist from an action, except the person has the ability to obey"
- this statement is un necessary.
God ddnt tell adam an eve to do somtin byond their capacity. They cud very well obey. Earlier, adam, had named all d animals in creation and it was a breeze to him. Talk less of the instruction to respect a tree.


"same, with adam, they dnt handle responsibilities well. They'll definitely make errors"

in other wrds, God shud hav made provision for Adam to make multiple mistakes. With a physical baby, u make provision for thm to make mistakes as they learn not as they disobey. E.g a baby learng to ride a bike, u'll b patient with. A baby learng to read u'll b patient with. A baby suckg the thumb (wrng act) you'll keep correctg while they keep disobeyg.
A baby playg wth fire(wrong action) u'll b patient with , even up the d 1000th time. You can b patient wth physical babies because the consequences of their wrong actions arent the same as it is for sin. If u commit sin, the consequence is DEATH, whether its ur first attempt or not. The consequence isnt a punishment but an automatic outcome. Its like sayg if a baby plays with fire and the his fingers burn , the burng finger shud hav waited till d tenth time or so. God is perfectly holy, and once a person sins the connection is broken. You cant fellowship with God with sin in you. You and him cant pally with sin in you, so u hav to clean up , b4 u reconnect. And with God out of the picture, it's like a fridge without electricity. The ice will keep contents fresh for a while but without restoration, all contents will decay. Sin leads to death,cuz it disconnects you , instantly from,life, which is in God.
When adam sinned he was instantly Spiritually unplugged from God, spiritual death, God's life wasnt in his spirit though his spirit was still wrkg. Eventually, his physical body died,because it is his spirit tht keeps the body body alive.
If adam, hadnt sinned, his spirit wud b perpetually hooked to God's spirit, and his body wud not die.

there's d issue of d fruit of d tree of life, which if they'd eaten in their disconnected state cud have created a perverse creation. They wud live forever, but their spirits wud still b disconnected from God! Imagine wat wud hav happened if some of d most evil men in d world lived forever!