Logic Mind:

no, sorry. your god needs me. he has been sending jehovah witnesses and mormons to my door asking me to come back with all sorts of promises. His messengers are on tv, radio, internet and roadsides begging me to come to him.

he needs to humble himself and step down from his pedestal and come to me himself if he wants me to listen to him.

Continue to delude yourself . Of course you will see GOD. You will either see HIM crying or happy and that depends on what you do. I hope you drop your folly and give a bid grin when you see HIM

rastamouse:

What makes you think you know everything? Did you read through the thread? Do you know anything about Christian temperaments? If I tell you that I am an evangelist, what will that mean to you? My friend, if you have nothing better to say, just stay off my case.

Like I said before, you just made another non-argument. You didn't present any facts, anything of value to the thread. You just spouted off an emotional response, one that really can't be debated over. That's why your a worthless debater. But I'll still take the bait.

1) What makes you think I know everything? I'm flattered you think that, because I sure don't, and I never said that either. There's another debating lesson: don't put words in someone's mouth.

2) What are you trying to say about Christian temperaments? What does being an evangelist have to do with anything? I'm a Christian, doesn't mean I have to be a jerk to people. Christ dealt with the Pharisees and Saducees all the time, yet only a few times did he insult them. Yet you verbally attack people in every post! I beg of you to show me why that's acceptable.

3) I won't your case until you put something worthwhile up in this thread.

bigd4050:

Like I said before, you just made another non-argument. You didn't present any facts, anything of value to the thread. You just spouted off an emotional response, one that really can't be debated over. That's why your a worthless debater. But I'll still take the bait.

1) What makes you think I know everything? I'm flattered you think that, because I sure don't, and I never said that either. There's another debating lesson: don't put words in someone's mouth.

2) What are you trying to say about Christian temperaments? What does being an evangelist have to do with anything? I'm a Christian, doesn't mean I have to be a jerk to people. Christ dealt with the Pharisees and Saducees all the time, yet only a few times did he insult them. Yet you verbally attack people in every post! I beg of you to show me why that's acceptable.

3) I won't your case until you put something worthwhile up in this thread.

I decided to ignore you but I may have to deal with you on this one. Whoever told you that I am here to debate? As an evangelist, I am here to present the facts and if anyone does not find it palatable, then that is their case. If you were intelligent, you would have seen from the beginning of the thread that the guy came up here on this thread just to spew out his ignorance. He asked me questions and I gave him the answers that he sought.

If that did not serve your interest then suit yourself.

bigd4050:

Actually, I disagree with people who think that way. You can't just life your life however you want to, and then think you will turn to God in your final moments and be saved. People like that think they can take advantage of God and use him as fire insurance, and its just not the case. A life purposefully lived out in rebellion to God won't be accepted by God.

However, I would say the second half of your statement is correct. Just because you do good things doesn't mean your reconciled to God. That is only done through relationship and repentance.

I won't diagree with you. The Bible does, though..

Ezekiel 33

12 Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth.
13 When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.
14 Again, when I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; if he turn from his sin, and do that which is lawful and right;
15 if the wicked restore the pledge, give again that he had robbed, walk in the statutes of life, without committing iniquity; he shall surely live, he shall not die.
16 None of his sins that he hath committed shall be mentioned unto him: he hath done that which is lawful and right; he shall surely live.
17 ¶ Yet the children of thy people say, The way of the Lord is not equal: but as for them, their way is not equal.
18 When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby.
19 But if the wicked turn from his wickedness, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall live thereby.
20 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. O ye house of Israel, I will judge you every one after his ways.

Or would you bring up the OLD/NEW covenant excuse?

musKeeto:

I won't diagree with you. The Bible does, though..

Ezekiel 33



Or would you bring up the OLD/NEW covenant excuse?

No, I would bring up what I said before about relationship and repentance. If you know you should repent, yet don't and live your life in sin until the last possible moment, you won't be saved. That would mean that you know God exists but never really sought out a relationship and repentance. To do that knowingly is unacceptable. What would happen to that person if they died unexpectedly? They knew God existed, yet never actually wanted to serve him until they wanted to (at the end of their life). God won't accept that kind of life, it was never really marked by any true repentance.

bigd4050:

No, I would bring up what I said before about relationship and repentance. If you know you should repent, yet don't and live your life in sin until the last possible moment, you won't be saved. That would mean that you know God exists but never really sought out a relationship and repentance. To do that knowingly is unacceptable. What would happen to that person if they died unexpectedly? They knew God existed, yet never actually wanted to serve him until they wanted to (at the end of their life). God won't accept that kind of life, it was never really marked by any true repentance.

And who are you to determine who will be saved and who will not? Have you ever read about the thief on the cross? He even knew about JESUS more than some of the Apostles but yet lived his life as a thief. Was he saved or not?

rastamouse:

I decided to ignore you but I may have to deal with you on this one. Whoever told you that I am here to debate? As an evangelist, I am here to present the facts and if anyone does not find it palatable, then that is their case. If you were intelligent, you would have seen from the beginning of the thread that the guy came up here on this thread just to spew out his ignorance. He asked me questions and I gave him the answers that he sought.

If that did not serve your interest then suit yourself.

I agree with you, you gave him the answer, but you do it in a terrible way which is my whole point. As an evangelist, you are supposed to win the hearts over of the people you speak to. Calling someone a fool three to four times is not winning their heart over. As an evangelist and Christian, you are supposed to give your best work to God. It appears to me like your slacking in that. I could call you a sinner after every post, because I know you are, but I don't do that do I? No, its not necessary. You answered his question, then called him a fool several more times. That is why I took issue.

rastamouse:

And who are you to determine who will be saved and who will not? Have you ever read about the thief on the cross? He even knew about JESUS more than some of the Apostles but yet lived his life as a thief. Was he saved or not?

He was because he was genuine in doing so. Someone that is genuine in serving God is going to turn their life over RIGHT AWAY to God. They no longer want to live their own life, but the life God wants them to. Someone who lives how they want their whole life and then flips when its suddenly suitable for them is not a Christian in my book. I know people by their fruit. That type of fruit is not about serving God but about serving themselves.

bigd4050:

He was because he was genuine in doing so. Someone that is genuine in serving God is going to turn their life over RIGHT AWAY to God. They no longer want to live their own life, but the life God wants them to. Someone who lives how they want their whole life and then flips when its suddenly suitable for them is not a Christian in my book. I know people by their fruit. That type of fruit is not about serving God but about serving themselves.

Have you read the text at Luke 23:40-42? Are you saying the guy came to CHRIST's saving knowledge only on the cross? The guy knew he was going to die and asked to be saved. He was saved so what makes you think that will be different for others?

In any case, as Muskeeto pointed out, GOD has told us HIMSELF that anytime that we repent, once we are still alive, HE will forgive us.

rastamouse:

Have you read the text at Luke 23:40-42? Are you saying the guy came to CHRIST's saving knowledge only on the cross? The guy knew he was going to die and asked to be saved. He was saved so what makes you think that will be different for others?

In any case, as Muskeeto pointed out, GOD has told us HIMSELF that anytime that we repent, once we are still alive, HE will forgive us.

Repentance is an actual heart change, not just words you say. If what you said is true, than no Israelite or Jew would ever go to Hell. They all offered sacrifices to God in repentance, and yet there were times when God opened up the ground to swallow them whole in disgust. Judas was with the disciples for three years, learning from Christ, I'm sure he did some verbal repenting. Yet he betrayed Christ and killed himself. He wasn't saved.

Like I said in my last post, the guy on the cross had a genuine heart change. That was what made the difference. Someone who doesn't really want to repent until he is about to die, when he knows he should, will not be saved.

That being said, I think there are some people that do come to Christ on their deathbed, having finally accepted God's grace. But these are the people who didn't tell themselves forty years earlier that "they would repent and accept God" on their deathbed.

bigd4050:

Repentance is an actual heart change, not just words you say. If what you said is true, than no Israelite or Jew would ever go to Hell. They all offered sacrifices to God in repentance, and yet there were times when God opened up the ground to swallow them whole in disgust. Judas was with the disciples for three years, learning from Christ, I'm sure he did some verbal repenting. Yet he betrayed Christ and killed himself. He wasn't saved.

Like I said in my last post, the guy on the cross had a genuine heart change. That was what made the difference. Someone who doesn't really want to repent until he is about to die, when he knows he should, will not be saved.

That being said, I think there are some people that do come to Christ on their deathbed, having finally accepted God's grace. But these are the people who didn't tell themselves forty years earlier that "they would repent and accept God" on their deathbed.

Have you said anything different from your last post? You are saying that Peter was better than Judas? If Peter was forgiven for doing three-times what Judas did, what makes you think that if Judas had not hanged himself, he will have been saved?

How did you know that the heart of the thief was genuine and not that of a person who has been caught? Every thief will tell a policeman that he will not repeat the offense. How was the repentance of the thief any different from that one? Did Christ ever tell anyone while on this planet that "you are not forgiven because your repentance is not genuine"?

rastamouse:

Have you said anything different from your last post? You are saying that Peter was better than Judas? If Peter was forgiven for doing three-times what Judas did, what makes you think that if Judas had not hanged himself, he will have been saved?

How did you know that the heart of the thief was genuine and not that of a person who has been caught? Every thief will tell a policeman that he will not repeat the offense. How was the repentance of the thief any different from that one? Did Christ ever tell anyone while on this planet that "you are not forgiven because your repentance is not genuine"?

Yes, Christ has said that. When people come and say "I did works in your name and did miracles! And I spoke in your name!" Christ says "I did not know you." Those people's repentance was not genuine. There's one point for me.

2) The repentance if the thief was different because Christ said it was. Other than that, I would have no idea. But we know that just because you do some good acts and say some good things doesn't make you a Christian. See my last sentence for that. The repentance MUST be genuine. The thief's heart changed right there, because he confessed right there and Christ accepted it. Someone who knows they should repent but doesn't is living in rebellion. I don't know how many times I must repeat this.

3) I'm not sure I understand your first point about Peter and Judas, can you explain that again?

bigd4050:

Yes, Christ has said that. When people come and say "I did works in your name and did miracles! And I spoke in your name!" Christ says "I did not know you." Those people's repentance was not genuine. There's one point for me.

2) The repentance if the thief was different because Christ said it was. Other than that, I would have no idea. But we know that just because you do some good acts and say some good things doesn't make you a Christian. See my last sentence for that. The repentance MUST be genuine. The thief's heart changed right there, because he confessed right there and Christ accepted it. Someone who knows they should repent but doesn't is living in rebellion. I don't know how many times I must repeat this.

3) I'm not sure I understand your first point about Peter and Judas, can you explain that again?

What do you think you did up there? You just wrote rubbish. The main issue that GOD HIMSELF (and JESUS demonstrated it) that whoever repents- as long as the person is still alive- will be saved. What is your point to support that such a person will not be saved?

Have you ever heard of the parable of the farmer who hired several people at different times of the day and paid all of them the same wage at the end of the day? Pray that you do not rather lose your salvation at the last hour because you will not be considered because of your earlier deeds.

I am surprised you don't know about what I said about Peter and Judas. The way you came jumping in, you gave the impression that you had some little knowledge of the scriptures but it is obvious that you are a novice. Go and do your research on Peter and Judas before we continue this.

rastamouse:

What do you think you did up there? You just wrote rubbish. The main issue that GOD HIMSELF (and JESUS demonstrated it) that whoever repents- as long as the person is still alive- will be saved. What is your point to support that such a person will not be saved?

Have you ever heard of the parable of the farmer who hired several people at different times of the day and paid all of them the same wage at the end of the day? Pray that you do not rather lose your salvation at the last hour because you will not be considered because of your earlier deeds.

I am surprised you don't know about what I said about Peter and Judas. The way you came jumping in, you gave the impression that you had some little knowledge of the scriptures but it is obvious that you are a novice. Go and do your research on Peter and Judas before we continue this.

Really? Your going to get all uppity on one point after I've been smashing you in every other thread on every other point? You are unbelievably arrogant in yourself. I'm no novice I simply don't understand the point that you are trying to make, that is why I want you to explain it. I know Scripture pretty well.

YOU ARE STILL NOT UNDERSTANDING MY POINT AT ALL. The point is not about when people are saved. If their heart is genuine, they could be saved as they take their last breath. But under the context of someone purposely waiting their whole life to repent, it doesn't make logical sense that they would be saved. Their heart motivation is not truly there. Even demons can know God exists, but they don't serve God, so they won't be saved. The same with the person who knows God exists but doesn't want to serve him at all, they just want to utter "forgive me" at the end, and they think they will skate right into heaven. That's such a cheapening of salvation.

rastamouse:

What do you call someone from Nigeria? I don't think Nigerian is an insult to someone from Nigeria so in the same vain telling a fool that he is a fool is not an insult...at least that is what the Bible calls anyone who does not believe in GOD

1The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good



This verse is often used to yab atheists but it is worth considering what is really being said here. Due to the Fool saying that there is no God he goes around being corrupt and doing abominble works. You see in his own thinking he does not believe that there will be payback for his wicked deeds. This is what makes him a fool because there will be a day of reckoning.

But what about the Atheist who does not go around being corrupt and practising wicked acts? Not because he is afraid of a payback but because he just doesn't think it is nice to be wicked and he'd rather be a nice guy.

hmmmm . ..


Well, What about the Theist who proclaims God from the rooftop yet continues to go around practising wickedness, corruption and all manner of abominations? Yes, the most deplorable acts in spite of believing in a just God. Would that not make him Fooler than a fool. A Double Fool. Or even a Fool raised to the power of Fool. Or even still a Fool raised to the power of an exponential Fool.

Just wondering.

bigd4050:

Really? Your going to get all uppity on one point after I've been smashing you in every other thread on every other point? You are unbelievably arrogant in yourself. I'm no novice I simply don't understand the point that you are trying to make, that is why I want you to explain it. I know Scripture pretty well.

YOU ARE STILL NOT UNDERSTANDING MY POINT AT ALL. The point is not about when people are saved. If their heart is genuine, they could be saved as they take their last breath. But under the context of someone purposely waiting their whole life to repent, it doesn't make logical sense that they would be saved. Their heart motivation is not truly there. Even demons can know God exists, but they don't serve God, so they won't be saved. The same with the person who knows God exists but doesn't want to serve him at all, they just want to utter "forgive me" at the end, and they think they will skate right into heaven. That's such a cheapening of salvation.

Keep tickling yourself

rastamouse:

Keep tickling yourself

And you wonder why I say you troll. That's what you pulled out of that whole post? And you wonder why I say I smashed you. I gotta get going its 4 a.m. by me. Till tomorrow

bigd4050:

And you wonder why I say you troll. That's what you pulled out of that whole post? And you wonder why I say I smashed you. I gotta get going its 4 a.m. by me. Till tomorrow

As I said, keep tickling yourself and bye. Cya later

bigd4050:

Secondly, calling someone a fool does not necessarily mean that you are going to Hell. Proverbs has many passages calling men fools for not being wise. It does not just mean that you don't believe in God, but it can also be someone with a childish attitude, a lazy person, or someone who does not control their emotions. Also, you are misinterpreting the verse. Calling someone a fool makes you liable to go to Hell, it doesn't mean you automatically do. The way it works is that if rastamouse calls you a fool, then he is instantly available to be judged to see if he is a fool. I say this because of the verse "judge not, and you will not be judged." If rastamouse calls you a fool, he won't go to Hell unless he is deemed to be a fool by God. However, since he continues to call you a fool, doesn't back up his arguments well, and is really just trying to troll since he is getting verbally beaten down, I think its a safe bet that he is in the wrong on this one.

@Logicboy: I think if you look at it from a Christian perspective, those men are fools. You could leave your seventy years here on earth doing a ton of important things or advancing society. If you don't believe in God here on earth, and you stand before him in heaven, he won't accept "but I created the newest kind of allergy treatment" as a valid reason to pass through the gates. Therefore, all the brilliant minds of today that aren't Christians will be wishing they were just a little bit smarter as they are suffering an eternity in Hell. I don't ask you to agree to that, but from a Christian perspective, it does make logical sense.

Thank for you for being calm and respectful even when we both do not agree. This is the problem with many christians here on Nairaland! They know they are losing the argument and so, they start calling atheists fools and say that we will burn in hell! They should remain civil and stick to the topic.




As for your christian perspective, it is rubbish; Pope Gregory IX in the 13th century accepts Jesus Christ as a christian but enforced the slavery of non-christians. Pope Gregory can repent and go to heaven. Ghandi is a Hinduist who negotiates the peaceful freedom of his people and lives a chaste life but he will go to hell since he died as a Hinduist. Is your religion fair or just plain rubbish?

@Rastamouse.

I see that you have become emotionally unstable, abusive and unreasonably angry because you have 3 people on your thread that are exposing you for your hypocrisy on christianity. I dont blame you, its cognitive dissonace. There are people who get proven wrong but it only makes them go further into their wrong belief. They try to reduce the two contradictory aspects of their belief. For instance, lets look at God's freewill;

logicboy: @Rastamouse.

I see that you have become emotionally unstable, abusive and unreasonably angry because you have 3 people on your thread that are exposing you for your hypocrisy on christianity. I dont blame you, its cognitive dissonace. There are people who get proven wrong but it only makes them go further into their wrong belief. They try to reduce the two contradictory aspects of their belief. For instance, lets look at God's freewill;

Why do I have the feeling that logicboy is the same as bigd4050 ? Well that is up to you.

Going on your response, I must say that I underestimated your folly. Are you saying that I insulted atheists or the Bible says so? In any case, what arguments are you talking about? As far as I know, there has been no debate between me and anyone here...period.

What happened is that people will ask for my opinion and I give it. Tell me if the Bible did not call atheists fools.

rastamouse:

Why do I have the feeling that logicboy is the same as bigd4050 ? Well that is up to you.

Going on your response, I must say that I underestimated your folly. Are you saying that I insulted atheists or the Bible says so? In any case, what arguments are you talking about? As far as I know, there has been no debate between me and anyone here...period.

What happened is that people will ask for my opinion and I give it. Tell me if the Bible did not call atheists fools.

well, if the bible said it it must be true. you seem not to understand and keep trolling. people outside your congregation don't give a hoot about your bible except exposing its ridiculous content. if i told you a book i found under a bed said that anybody whose name contains mouse is a zoophile, tell me one reason that will change anything for you? ... exactly!

Logic Mind:

well, if the bible said it it must be true. you seem not to understand and keep trolling. people outside your congregation don't give a hoot about your bible except exposing its ridiculous content. if i told you a book i found under a bed said that anybody whose name contains mouse is a zoophile, tell me one reason that will change anything for you? ... exactly!

That will be a valid reference for me

rastamouse:

Why do I have the feeling that logicboy is the same as bigd4050 ? Well that is up to you.

Going on your response, I must say that I underestimated your folly. Are you saying that I insulted atheists or the Bible says so? In any case, what arguments are you talking about? As far as I know, there has been no debate between me and anyone here...period.

What happened is that people will ask for my opinion and I give it. Tell me if the Bible did not call atheists fools.

Just like I said, when proven wrong you keep running back to your failed belief- symptoms of an enslaved mind.


The bible tells you to call people fools and you believe it's the thing to do. Do you really believe that Bill Gates is a fool or Mark Zuckerberg is a fool?

Can you really go and call people fools to their faces or are you just a hypocritical coward that only gets the courage to call people fools on the internet?


So, a child born into a an atheist family in Europe is a fool? The child grows up to be an atheist and he is a fool? Is that not the same way you and many people are christians but you arent fools because you were born into the right family?


If you blieve everything that the old testament tells you to do, then why dont you apart from calling people fools, why dont you stone homosexuals?

logicboy:


Just like I said, when proven wrong you keep running back to your failed belief- symptoms of an enslaved mind.


The bible tells you to call people fools and you believe it's the thing to do. Do you really believe that Bill Gates is a fool or Mark Zuckerberg is a fool?

Can you really go and call people fools to their faces or are you just a hypocritical coward that only gets the courage to call people fools on the internet?


So, a child born into a an atheist family in Europe is a fool? The child grows up to be an atheist and he is a fool? Is that not the same way you and many people are christians but you arent fools because you were born into the right family?


If you blieve everything that the old testament tells you to do, then why dont you apart from calling people fools, why dont you stone homosexuals?

Funny guy...Do you think Mark Zuckerberg or Bill Gates is bigger than GOD and the Bible? You think I can't insult Bill Gates and Zuckerberg but think you can insult GOD?

You keep saying I am calling you a fool but you have failed to realized that it was the Bible that said so. How many times do I have to drum that into your skull?

rastamouse:

Funny guy...Do you think Mark Zuckerberg or Bill Gates is bigger than GOD and the Bible? You think I can't insult Bill Gates and Zuckerberg but think you can insult GOD?

You keep saying I am calling you a fool but you have failed to realized that it was the Bible that said so. How many times do I have to drum that into your skull?

The bible calls athiests fools an you agreed, heck you even said that it could apply to all Americans if they didnt believe in god when I asked you about Japan being 64% atheist.


You can try and deny it but you just keep looking foolish.


The laptop/computer that you use is made by people who dont believe in Jesus (Windows- Bill Gates, Apple- Steve Jobs, assembly- China). This website is owned by an atheist, yet you call atheist fools.


Everyone can see that you are losing.

rastamouse:

Funny guy...Do you think Mark Zuckerberg or Bill Gates is bigger than GOD and the Bible? You think I can't insult Bill Gates and Zuckerberg but think you can insult GOD?

You keep saying I am calling you a fool but you have failed to realized that it was the Bible that said so. How many times do I have to drum that into your skull?

they resort to insults when they lose arguments

logicboy:

The bible calls athiests fools an you agreed, heck you even said that it could apply to all Americans if they didnt believe in god when I asked you about Japan being 64% atheist.


You can try and deny it but you just keep looking foolish.


The laptop/computer that you use is made by people who dont believe in Jesus (Windows- Bill Gates, Apple- Steve Jobs, assembly- China). This website is owned by an atheist, yet you call atheist fools.


Everyone can see that you are losing.

LOL...How does that change anything? Even if they made the plane, they have failed to realize that they were created and therefore fail to acknowledge their MAKER so that makes them fools. That is on the pretext that they are atheists as you claim. Nothing changes

Logic Mind:

they resort to insults when they lose arguments

This is about winning argument to you but it is about winning your soul to me.

rastamouse:



This is about winning argument to you but it is about winning your soul to me.

And what would a soul look like? Do souls even exist?

logicboy:

And what would a soul look like? Do souls even exist?

They do my brother. If your hand is cut off right now, will you cease to be logicboy?

rastamouse:

LOL...How does that change anything? Even if they made the plane, they have failed to realize that they were created and therefore fail to acknowledge their MAKER so that makes them fools. That is on the pretext that they are atheists as you claim. Nothing changes

You are even becoming more absurd.

Bill gates created windows and I use a sony laptop.

Does sony or bill gates have any claim to the video that my laptop creates through the webcam?

If god created me, does he own the things i create?