hensben:
James should be made captain after Azpilicueta. What do you think?

BlueRayDick:


Russia has always had the strength. At least their possession of WMD's portrays them as such. If its not madness why does putin need to do the nonsense he's doing in Ukraine to further show its strength to the whole world?

Well I don't know sha, I just find it unjustifiable considering the reasons putin has given thus far for the invasion.

afrodoc2:


The real reason for the invasion is the eastward expansion of NATO, a military alliance which at its core is an anti-Russian alliance.
The West keeps tempting fate and antagonising Russia by adding more and more countries to NATO and now they are at Russia’s borders in the West. If Ukraine joins NATO then they would be at border of Russia in the South of Russia as well.

Putin feels he has a duty to his state prevent its strategic encirclement by enemies the same way JFK felt he had a duty when he blockaded Cuba a sovereign country to prevent the Soviet Union from placing nuclear missiles there.

Havertz10:

Putin is a man that is fighting for his people, crimea is a very significant part of Russian history, Putin doesn't have imperialist tendencies like America and he has no intention to rule the world like the west

All he wants is to be treated fairly and for his people to be afforded the respect they deserve

So, I will start with the fact that modern Ukraine was entirely created by Russia or, to be more precise, by Bolshevik, Communist Russia. This process started practically right after the 1917 revolution, and Lenin and his associates did it in a way that was extremely harsh on Russia — by separating, severing what is historically Russian land.

It is now that radicals and nationalists, including and primarily those in Ukraine, are taking credit for having gained independence. As we can see, this is absolutely wrong. The disintegration of our united country was brought about by the historic, strategic mistakes on the part of the Bolshevik leaders and the C.P.S.U. leadership, mistakes committed at different times in state-building and in economic and ethnic policies. The collapse of the historical Russia known as the U.S.S.R. is on their conscience

However, the Russian president spoke about Georgia quite calmly and as if in passing,” says a Kommersant source in the delegation of one of the NATO countries.“When it came to Ukraine, Putin flared up.

Addressing Bush, he said: , George, that Ukraine is not even a state! What is Ukraine? Part of its territory is Eastern Europe, and part, and a significant one, was donated by us!" And then he very transparently hinted that if Ukraine was nevertheless accepted into NATO, this state would simply cease to exist. That is, in fact, he threatened that Russia could start secession of Crimea and Eastern Ukraine".

Havertz10:
so many questions, I would answer all of them together and try to connect all
What are human rights? You people like to boast about it but do you actually have rights? Think about it, can you enforce your rights?
Secondly what's a sovereign state? If sovereign states matter, America wouldn't be interfering in the affairs of countries that aren't democratic, after all their sovereign integrity should be respected

Point I'm trying to make here is while its easy for you to assume that the differences between good and bad is black and white and therefore status quo is unbreakable, you have to understand that before the present status quo existed there was a prior status quo
Now let's talk about Ukraine, I had a globalist view of events, saw the territorial implications of Ukraine joining american imperialist orbit as harmful to Russia but when I dug deeper I found out that there is more to the story

And please before you reply me, do your research and confirm my claims
The story is long but let's start at 2014, CIA backed neo Nazi groups in Ukraine that literally control all levers of government staged a coup, some call it a revolution but it was a coup, against their president, I will continually say it, people are dumb, group think can be established with proper propaganda, the general consensus after the operation was that Ukrainians want to join Europe
Economics is the life blood of civilization, so yes i must bring economics into it Ukraine is a very corrupt country, its a modern crony state like Nigeria, so its people assumed that by joining EU things will change, that's the propaganda that they were fed, now another thing you have to understand is that eastern Ukraine is home to many ethnic Russians, that have been killed since 2014 over their differences with the neo Nazi in the west, 12,000~ ethnic Russians have been killed in eastern Ukraine, that CIA propped idiot that western media promotes is just acting a script, you didn't ask yourself how a comedian was able to win an election, its owner of the film house that hosted his show that installed him, like I said Ukraine is very corrupt, add that to Russia seeking to protect it's sovereignty and we have the crisis you see today
NATO and co bombed Yugoslavia because of Kosovo, nobody raised an eyelid because western media controls the narrative and sheep listen and swallow whatever they are fed, human rights uno

Putin is a man that is fighting for his people, crimea is a very significant part of Russian history, Putin doesn't have imperialist tendencies like America and he has no intention to rule the world like the west
All he wants is to be treated fairly and for his people to be afforded the respect they deserve
Yes I support him, yes I support his actions, Nigeria can only dream of a leader like putin, America has essentially turned almost all nations of the world to puppet States
You are still sleeping
I ask again, what are you rights? Who gave you those rights? Government afforded you those privileges, and they can take it away when ever they like, ask Japanese Americans about their so called rights during world war 2

Google what john Bolton said when ICC wanted to investigate America for war crimes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWB6IUE0hJU
Your illusion of rights and freedom are a gifted privilege you enjoy either because you are white, have resources or don't matter enough to interfered with

donjazet:


But the thing is, I have not heard of any of those countries being coerced to join. As a matter of fact, their economy immediately improves upon joining. NATO might have been formed as a defensive alliance against the Soviet union, but the group has been more or less defunct, they haven't really been active. NATO's function since it's inception has basically been as a deterrent factor rather than an active aggressor.

It's just like china's military. China has had a very strong military for at least 40 years but has never been in war in that timeframe. Their military serving the purpose of being a deterrent, rather than an active aggressor. It's not far fetched to think Putin desires a rebuild of the Soviet states and that is just dangerous to global affairs. The world has had relative peace and global economic growth for the last half century. We don't need world powers being on the verge of war.

afrodoc2:


The Soviet Union did not coerce Cuba to house the nuclear weapons yet the US considered invading Cuba because of this before settling for blockading it.

These things have never been about morality but about strength. That is why the US could easily invade Iraq as punishment for invading Kuwait but would not invade Russia for a similar action.

Lastly whether their economies improved after joining NATO is not the issue. Their are other ways of improving your economy without joining NATO. What Putin does not want is to have NATO missiles surrounding the core parts of Russia.

donjazet:


Jesus Christ!! This has to be the most extreme case of word-salad I've ever seen.
WORD SALAD: refers to the practice of stringing together words that have no apparent connection to one another—an extreme case of jumbled speech or disorderly writing. Also called paraphrasia

You have buried your head into soo much anti-western propaganda that you can only come up with a lot of mumbojumbo to eventually come to the point that you support a dictator like Putin.
Just like American Germans in 1945 who revered Hitler as the best German leader of all time, or Italians who saw mussilioni as the best Italian leader. Or even Nigerians who saw Abacha as the kind of "strong" leader needed to stand up for Nigeria and against "foreign powers".

What foolish people like you choose to do is conveniently brush aside how these tyrants got their power and maintained it for such a long time.
You really believe that Putin is the best leader for Russians? a dictator who kills political opponents, both home and abroad, who censors the free press in his country, who cuts down harshly and swiftly on civilian protests.
And this your same dirty mouth would dare criticize the west, the west where power is always changing hands, where there is no political persecution of political opponents. Where every tom dick and Harry can come face to face to their leaders and criticize them, where free speech and human rights are almost guaranteed.

The west is not perfect. Nobody is, but again, what you have in the west is far better than what can be obtained anywhere else in the world.

Imagine a supporter of a tyrant like Putin opening mouth to criticize western democracy.

afrodoc2:


The real reason for the invasion is the eastward expansion of NATO, a military alliance which at its core is an anti-Russian alliance.

The West keeps tempting fate and antagonising Russia by adding more and more countries to NATO and now they are at Russia’s borders in the West. If Ukraine joins NATO then they would be at border of Russia in the South of Russia as well.

Putin feels he has a duty to his state prevent its strategic encirclement by enemies the same way JFK felt he had a duty when he blockaded Cuba a sovereign country to prevent the Soviet Union from placing nuclear missiles there.

donjazet:


We can't be comparing actions taken during the cold WAR to the present day.
The good thing about America is that at their core, they try to learn from their mistakes. Today we know some of the mistakes and atrocities of American foreign policy primarily because they are able to look inwards and self criticize. Do we know half of what the Soviets did in their hayday?

The west do not have a system that gives rice to autonomous dictators, hence the actions of their leaders can always be curtailed. A lot of people criticize Obama for his actions in Syria but the bulk of this criticism arises from the republicans who are within America itself. Just like a lot of people who criticize bush for his actions in Afghanistan and Iraq, majority of those criticism also self generated from the democrats within America.


Who inside Russia is able to curtail and check tyrants like Putin?

afrodoc2:


The real reason for the invasion is the eastward expansion of NATO, a military alliance which at its core is an anti-Russian alliance.

The West keeps tempting fate and antagonising Russia by adding more and more countries to NATO and now they are at Russia’s borders in the West. If Ukraine joins NATO then they would be at border of Russia in the South of Russia as well.

Putin feels he has a duty to his state prevent its strategic encirclement by enemies the same way JFK felt he had a duty when he blockaded Cuba a sovereign country to prevent the Soviet Union from placing nuclear missiles there.

BlueRayDick:


We know about this line of thought by Putin, but invading another sovreign nation beacuse they want to join a military alliance willingly just seem unreasonable in this present age and time.

It appears what Putin wants is the old USSR back and not the superstory of not wanting NATO near it's border.

As a matter of fact the USA has an airforce Base close to Russia in Alaska ;if what Putin fears is the west having a Base near it's border, what has he done about that? Or is he just preying on Ukraine because he can?

afrodoc2:


I am not debating West vs Soviet with you. Obviously the West won. I am only saying Putin is doing the same thing that US Presidents have done before and continue to do whenever they feel their interests are at risk.

Putin feels Russian sovereignty is at risk if he allows Ukraine to remain under the influence of the West. He did what he felt was necessary the same way US Presidents have done in the past.

I am not condoning war or aggression but we can’t all be playing the same game then when it comes to my turn to score the rules are changed.

Funny, but true

BlueRayDick:


We know about this line of thought by Putin, but invading another sovreign nation beacuse they want to join a military alliance willingly just seem unreasonable in this present age and time.

It appears what Putin wants is the old USSR back and not the superstory of not wanting NATO near it's border.

As a matter of fact the USA has an airforce Base close to Russia in Alaska ;if what Putin fears is the west having a Base near it's border, what has he done about that? Or is he just preying on Ukraine because he can?

GloriousGbola:
Ironically America was isolationist during ww2. Not our business. Until Japan bombed Pearl harbor and dragged them in.

The whole policeman of the world etc started from there.

Havertz10:
he doesn't, that assumption is western propaganda, he wants Ukraine to remain neutral, if they did, we wouldn't be having this conversation, how can he want Ukraine to remain neutral and still want to build old Soviet republics, stop listening to western propaganda

afrodoc2:




Immediately America became confident of its power it turned from isolationism to imperialism quite quickly.

nihilistjnr:


You made some good points, but the incorrect assumption at the heart of your argument lets you down.

These are some of the things Putin said about Ukraine in his final speech before the invasion




And...




And apparently in a 2008 meeting with NATO and George Bush, this apparently happened.



Putin in his own words has never considered Ukraine to be an independent country, which contradicts your view that he doesn't have imperialistic tendencies. This is why he feels do strongly about a part of the Russian empire joining NATO...he considers it a huge L, and hd willing to do anything he can to fight it.

As you can see, he threatened to take action a good 6 years before invading Crimea, and a whopping 14 years before taking over the whole country.

BlueRayDick:


Everything to you is western propaganda.

Nihilistjnr just posted the words of putin himself shortly before the invasion talking about the old USSR and the mistakes of their past leaders and all....You stylishly side-stepped that and here u are claiming it's western propaganda.

Havertz10:
he doesn't, that assumption is western propaganda, he wants Ukraine to remain neutral, if they did, we wouldn't be having this conversation, how can he want Ukraine to remain neutral and still want to build old Soviet republics, stop listening to western propaganda

I am confident that true sovereignty of Ukraine is possible only in partnership with Russia. Our spiritual, human and civilizational ties formed for centuries and have their origins in the same sources, they have been hardened by common trials, achievements and victories.

Our kinship has been transmitted from generation to generation. It is in the hearts and the memory of people living in modern Russia and Ukraine, in the blood ties that unite millions of our families. Together we have always been and will be many times stronger and more successful. For we are one people.

Therefore, modern Ukraine is entirely the product of the Soviet era. We know and remember well that it was shaped – for a significant part – on the lands of historical Russia.

To make sure of that, it is enough to look at the boundaries of the lands reunited with the Russian state in the 17th century and the territory of the Ukrainian SSR when it left the Soviet Union.

You want to establish a state of your own: you are welcome! But what are the terms? I will recall the assessment given by one of the most prominent political figures of new Russia, first mayor of Saint Petersburg Anatoly Sobchak.

As a legal expert who believed that every decision must be legitimate, in 1992, he shared the following opinion: the republics that were founders of the Union, having denounced the 1922 Union Treaty, must return to the boundaries they had had before joining the Soviet Union. All other territorial acquisitions are subject to discussion, negotiations, given that the ground has been revoked.

In other words, when you leave, take what you brought with you. This logic is hard to refute

Apparently, and I am becoming more and more convinced of this: Kiev simply does not need Donbas

Amoto94:
Sacramento Kings owner Vivek Ranadivé is preparing a bid for Chelsea as well.

{Sportico}

nihilistjnr:


These are excerpts from an article on the relationship between Russia and Ukraine, written by Vladimir Putin himself, and literally published on the Kremlin website

http://en.kremlin.ru/events/president/news/66181



Putin even started this article by charting the history of Ukraine as a part of Russia in great detail, from the 9th century to present day, pointing out that Ukraine is basically an LGA of Russia pretending to be an independent country.




And that if they really want to go down that they must be prepared to return the gifted territory to Russia...



In case you weren't sure about why he did what he did in 2014, Baba clear you say:



In other words, don't get it twisted.

Amoto94:
Havertz10