JeSoul: LordReed, I've untagged your post. Next time don't repost it as it'll just ban you again, alert a mod to untag it instead. Due to a glitch yet to be fixed I can't unban you right now but the spambot ban will expire in just a little bit. Cheers.

Thanks JeSoul but I couldn't find any link to mods or untagging. Could you tell me how to do it for future ref?

Lord_Reed:
Thanks JeSoul but I couldn't find any link to mods or untagging. Could you tell me how to do it for future ref?

Sure. In every section there's a thread on top the page where you can quickly get in touch with the section mods. The link to ours is https://www.nairaland.com/505782/questions-comments-complaints-talk-moderators. Cheers and happy posting .

JeSoul: Sure. In every section there's a thread on top the page where you can quickly get in touch with the section mods. The link to ours is https://www.nairaland.com/505782/questions-comments-complaints-talk-moderators. Cheers and happy posting .

Thanks a bunch.

Lord_Reed: I was banned temporaily (damned spambot!)

@Pastor AIO
I said relatively unbiased. Your source revels in the Occult so why won't he interpret the facts to suit him?

Okay, I hear you. But considering that no mainstream sources actually mention the role of the likes of John Dee it would seem that any mention of him would be a bias leaning too far towards the occult. What would you consider to be a balanced and unbiased presentation of the facts?

What you could perhaps dispute was that the purported skills of a John Dee were of any practical effect and that his rituals had any effect on the outcome of the battle. However what you cannot deny is that the English court would have had recourse to persons such as John Dee, whether or not their faith in his powers were well founded or unfounded.

Yes the Spanish had superior fire power but the English had higher numbers and were more agile which is why I said "If the Spanish were so overwhelmingly superior..." because they were not.

Did you note that at the time the Spanish Armada approached the Channel the English were stuck in port due to incoming tide? Where was the so called Court Magician to aid them?

Okay, I will not argue with you on the superiority of either navy.

I am not aware of Magic to influence the tide, I always thought that the tide was fixed to the movements of the Moon. To have magic to influence the tide would be like having magic to influence the rising and setting of the Sun.
However I'm very aware of magic to influence the weather.

Please what exactly is the thrust of your argument. Are you saying that the whole John Dee episode did not happen? Or are you saying that it happened by it didn't have any significant consequence?

You show you have things turned around by saying that the Spanish docking compromised their tactical formation thereby allowing the English fireships penetration. Rather the fireships were used to destabilise the Spanish formation. The port was too shallow for the Spanish Galleons (the heavily armed Spanish powerhouses) to dock so of both necessity and practicality they were on guard. Even at that the fireships did no damage except to break up the Spanish formation.

okay, It wasn't the docking that made them compromise their formation.
But you agree that it wasn't the fireships or the english fleet that destroyed the Armada.

All in all the crux of the matter is the storms came after the main battles and even if they didn't encounter the storms the Spanish were headed home.

What I disagree with is an interpretation of events to suit a whimsy. The facts do not support an Occultic Event being the cause for the English victory.

What I find puzzling and non of the links explains is why the Armada still did not pick up the troops considering that little damage had been done to the Armada. Anyway, that's by the by. The Storm hit them when they were on their way home after minimal losses and not really even attempting what they set out to do. That in itself is puzzling to me.
Does the issue of When the storm occurred negate the possibility that there were occult influences in it, or more appropriately, does it negate the possibility that occult means were attempted whether or not it was by these means that the armada was destroyed.

I'm not arguing for the efficacy of the Occult. I'm arguing for the fact that the occult was used (perhaps naively) at all, and that such use of the occult was common at the time with even Papal courts employing astrologers.
What are the facts that do not support an occultic event? That the storm occurred when the armada was on it's way home relatively unscathed? That doesn't mean that it couldn't have been due to occult rituals.
Please what are the facts that demonstrate that the occult had nothing to do with it?

@Pastor AIO
What I would term a relatively unbiased reporting of events would include amongst other things a logical chronology of the series of events. For instance the first flag I raised against your account was where you wrote that the storm afflicted the Spanish fleet before they engaged the English thereby lending credence to the Occult Intervention. If that fact were really true I would have given thought to the idea of an Occult Intervention.

John Dee's skills were obviously not widely acknowledged so that his name is not mentioned in the accounts I quoted. If he had a significant influence in the proceeds I would expect him to be mentioned just like the signal bearers were mentioned. He may have exhibited powers or not but if he was in the court his works did not shine during this episode.

The English and the Spanish engaged about four times and during one of the engagements here's what happened:

Five Spanish ships were lost. The galleass San Lorenzo ran aground at Calais and was taken by Howard after murderous fighting between the crew, the galley slaves, the English and the French who ultimately took possession of the wreck. The galleons San Mateo and San Felipe drifted away in a sinking condition, ran aground on the island of Walcheren the next day, and were taken by the Dutch. One carrack ran aground near Blankenberge; another foundered. Many other Spanish ships were severely damaged, especially the Spanish and Portuguese Atlantic-class galleons which had to bear the brunt of the fighting during the early hours of the battle in desperate individual actions against groups of English ships. The Spanish plan to join with Parma's army had been defeated and the English had afforded themselves some breathing space.

In all the engagements the English did not loose a single ship. What I am trying to point out to you is that English seamanship was the wave on which they rode on to victory and eventually becoming Europe's greatest naval power.

As for picking the troops, the English ceased pursing the Spanish northward so they could guard against the Spanish making further attempts to pick up the troops. The Spanish saw that and decided to withdraw after which they suffered from the severe storms.

All these demonstrate that it was the English rising skills as seamen and more agile boats that was instrumental in chasing off the Spanish not the storms and hence not the Occultic Intervention.

Understand that I believe that Occultic Interventions do occur but for this case it was not particularly a deciding factor.

Lord_Reed: @Pastor AIO
What I would term a relatively unbiased reporting of events would include amongst other things a logical chronology of the series of events. For instance the first flag I raised against your account was where you wrote that the storm afflicted the Spanish fleet before they engaged the English thereby lending credence to the Occult Intervention. If that fact were really true I would have given thought to the idea of an Occult Intervention.

John Dee's skills were obviously not widely acknowledged so that his name is not mentioned in the accounts I quoted. If he had a significant influence in the proceeds I would expect him to be mentioned just like the signal bearers were mentioned. He may have exhibited powers or not but if he was in the court his works did not shine during this episode.

The English and the Spanish engaged about four times and during one of the engagements here's what happened:



In all the engagements the English did not loose a single ship. What I am trying to point out to you is that English seamanship was the wave on which they rode on to victory and eventually becoming Europe's greatest naval power.

As for picking the troops, the English ceased pursing the Spanish northward so they could guard against the Spanish making further attempts to pick up the troops. The Spanish saw that and decided to withdraw after which they suffered from the severe storms.

All these demonstrate that it was the English rising skills as seamen and more agile boats that was instrumental in chasing off the Spanish not the storms and hence not the Occultic Intervention.

Understand that I believe that Occultic Interventions do occur but for this case it was not particularly a deciding factor.

Points taken!!

Great video that clearly shows how HRE was destroyed into smaller countries and the rise of modern Germany from Prussia up into the present day.

The evolution of the political boundaries of Europe.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=uoWtvpg77oE&video

[size=13pt]^{You are not deceiving yourself mr.Christ.....don't worry we're coming for people like you very soon . You'll surey be free from slavery of mind and that kind of mentality of religious madness that have enslaved you not be real . We the free-thinker of the new age have cure for you all...}
[/size]

joe4christ:

Just listen to yourself, deception from the heir of deception (Lucifer) himself!

Ogaga4Luv: [size=13pt]^{You are not deceiving yourself mr.Christ.....don't worry we're coming for people like you very soon . You'll surey be free from slavery of mind and that kind of mentality of religious madness that have enslaved you not be real . We the free-thinker of the new age have cure for you all...}
[/size]

Not when yahweh is still on the throne!

joe4christ:

Not when yahweh is still on the throne!

Excuse you.
Yahweh is no longer on the throne.
Yahweh demanded sacrifices of virgins and children.
He was dethroned by a Catholic god who does not ask sacrifices.

Man was born free, but everywhere he is in chains - Rousseau

those who fail to act for the general good of the state should be forced to be free - Rousseau

I'm too pressed for time to go into details of this last aspect of wars of Religion that I want to talk about. Plus, the issue is so big and intricate. Plus, many may argue that I am only making it a Religious War by dint of extreme contrivance so I need to be careful in explaining how and why the following fit into the Wars of Religion.
So I shall be both cursory but also try to zoom in to some parts in detail. First I think I should just talk about the ideas and ideologies that built up to the French Revolution (and the American declaration of independence). Then in a subsequent post I'll go into the actual wars part.

It was an Era called the AGE OF ENLIGHTENMENT, or also known as THE AGE OF REASON.
These guys felt that humanity was rising out of a past beclouded by superstitions and religious thinking and emerging into a new age of Rational thinking which was going to save mankind from destitution and make his life better.

The first guys were Descartes and Francis Bacon in the 17th century that did much to advance scientific progress. But the main guys that laid down the ideas that fuelled the era were John Locke, and Jean Jacque Rousseau. These were political philosophers.

They wrote about Man in his natural state before civilization and then Man in Society where he gives up his natural freedoms in a social contract.
The entire notion is flawed from it's premises in my humble opinion simply because Man is essentially a Social animal and there was no time when Man wasn't a part of a society. Even Apes and other primates exist in groups with social hierarchies. It is not only primates that are social, other species e.g packs of Wolves, Schools of Fish, Dolphins, etc etc etc. There are some animals that are just essentially Social by nature. Therefore Man in his Natural state is man in his Social state.
However, these points did not occur to Locke or Rousseau nor any of their numerous readers who then went on to influence World history.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tO1NkB4_zzQ&feature=related


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0B28_gwj0M&feature=related


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-buzVjYQvY&feature=related

First thing that was undermined in their philosophies is the ideas of The Divine Right of Kings. Instead they said that the Rulers rule by the consent of the Ruled.
This was the most important political pillar that they knocked down in my opinion. Once you take away the Will of God from the Kings and Rulers then the Authority by which they rule is seriously undermined, and disgruntled people feel it is okay to overthrow their 'God appointed' monarch and even chop his head off. Regicide is no longer such a heinous crime against God.

Rousseau's idea that Natural man gives up his individual freedoms to join Society in order to support the 'General Will' which is for everybody's good (everybody's freedom in fact) is loaded with so much explosively dangerous possibilities especially when you add the notion that those who will not be 'free' must be 'Forced to be Free'. Of course Rousseau does not adequately tell us how we are to determine what the 'General Will' is. This of course opens the door for some charismatic dude to step in and claim to speak on behalf of the People's will, or the General will. And once that happens we are back in familiar territory.

Yes familiar territory cos haven't we seen it all before. Some Charismatic dude steps up and claims to know the Will of God, or the Will of some hazily defined Authority. Only in this case what we are fighting for is 'Humanity'. The hazily defined Authority is the 'General Will', or the Will of the People.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXIAEJuEhG8&feature=related


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M40waSvXwBU

YAWNS YAWNS
World war 2 was way cooler jor!

Chrisbenogor: YAWNS YAWNS
World war 2 was way cooler jor!

Allow me to finish na! give me 24 hours.