@Pastor AIO

You must continue o, some of your thoughts I do not agree with but this is quite interesting, now will Logic allow Pastor to finish what he has started? We all stand to gain a lot from this thread.

Okay, this one is complicated, but very important so I'll try to be brief without losing any essential features. Basically the Habsburgs rule an empire that includes Spain, Austria, Modern day Germany, and Netherlands. It is called the Holy Roman Empire. It is not Holy, It is not Roman, and it can hardly be called an empire because all the Princes that are ruling it's provinces are vying with the Emperor for autonomy. They want to rule themselves and choose their own religion.

There has already being one conflict which ended with the Peace of Augsburg which divided the German part of the Empire into Lutheran and Catholic parts. Cuius Regio, Eius Religio = who rules the region decides what religion will be practiced in that region. So what was the problem?

The problem was that Protestantism was no longer just Lutheranism but now Calvinism had joined the party. Calvinism had already wreaked havoc on France and eventually Henry the IV settled it by insisting that there should be Catholic towns and Huguenot towns. Huguenots cannot worship or preach or pray outside their huguenot towns and likewise Catholics could not worship outside of catholic towns.

30 years war kicked off with the defenestration in Bohemia. What is defenestration? fenestre means window in Latin (I think). So to de-fenestre, or de-window means to throw somebody out of the window. It started off as a religious concern but soon descended into a free-for-all in which religion hardly mattered but catholics found themselves fighting catholics and protestants fighting protestants as the future of modern europe was bloodily forged on the battle field. It was Europe's worst disaster since the Black death and it reduced Central Europe's population by 1/3 and totally destroyed the economic capacity of Germany making sure that Germany wouldn't be a force to be reckoned with for another 3 centuries. The center of power shifted from central Europe to Western Europe. France emerged as the political and CULTURAL leader of Europe after this. French became the language of international diplomacy, in fact every court in europe spoke french including the German courts. But added to this was the fact that Western Europe had discovered Americas and Africa, and India and established colonies from which they extracted a lot of wealth and power. Germany was left out of this development and it wasn't until the 20th century when Germany attempted to catch up and it lead to the next history defining war, The WW1.

Anyway, back to the defenestration. HRE had a new emperor called Frederick who is fiercely catholic. The Princes of Bohemia, a province of HRE, are calvinist and though the Peace of Augsburg allows protestantism in regions where the Princes are protestant this only extends to Lutherans not Calvinist.
There is a meeting between the Emperor's envoys and the Prince and things get so heated that the Emperor's envoys are man handled and thrown out of the window from a height of 70 feet. Miraculously they survived.
Immediately the Pope declares that they survived because angels caught them as they were falling and gently put them on the ground. The protestants say that they survived because they landed in a pile of manure. Either way the emperor was not pleased and he sent in his troops to bohemia and totally defeats the Bohemian princes. This was the beginning of the 30 years war.

Now remember that the HRE stretches from Austria in the south up to include all the German principalities. However the Emperor does not really control the Empire. Each local prince controls his own region including the religion practiced in that region. If the Emperor wanted to go to war he would have to go around petitioning all the Princes in his empire to contribute to the War effort. The Emperor wants to have more control over his empire and centralise the power in himself. Meanwhile the Princes are resisting this and they want to hold on to their own power or even increase it.
The next very important thing to be aware of is that the rest of Europe is looking at HRE very cautiously because nobody wants to see a strong and united HRE. That would just be too powerful for their liking. This is a problem I believe that still persists till today. The fact that a United Germany is just too powerful for the rest of Europe to deal with.

After defeating the Bohemians the Emperor's forces turn northward to try and subjugate the protestant princes. The King of Denmark sees what is happening and doesn't like the idea of a united HRE cos Denmark is just a small country on the northern tip of Germany. It can survive if Germany remains divided but if they become united under the emperor then Denmark will definitely be crushed eventually. So Denmark invades the HRE on the side of the protestant princes.

The HRE defeat Denmark and the Emperor's forces continue to march northwards. The Emperor also issues the edict of restitution. What is that? That is an edict that says that all the land that once belonged to the catholic church in an area will be returned to the church. The problem with this edict is that some of these regions had been protestant for over 3 generations. Catholicism was strange to these people yet they were forced to serve the catholic church again. This stoked up the passions of the protestants even more.

At this point another power gets involved, Sweden. Sweden is protestant too and comes in on the side of the protestants. But really the truth is that Sweden simply didn't want to see a united HRE either. Sweden made a big difference because Sweden had invented the first modern military. All the other nations fought using mercenaries and hired soldiers. Sweden had it's own military commanded and trained personally by the King of Sweden, Adolfus Gustavus. The superiority was obvious for all to see.

Then eventually France cannot stand back any longer and joins in. But wait a minute! France is Catholic, right? And it is ruled by a Catholic cleric called Cardinal Richelieu, right? Richelieu is the regent cos the king is too young to rule yet. So it is obvious what side France is going to get involved on, isn't it? Or is it?

Remember France doesn't want to see HRE unified under the emperor even though the emperor is catholic and France is Catholic. France invades HRE on the side of the protestants. The aim is to destabilise the region as much as possible. Then Spain gets involved because remember that Spain is a part of HRE but now ruled separately by another branch of the Habsburg family. Catholic Spain attacks catholic France. The whole of Europe is thrown into chaos at this time.

By the end of the war in 1648 the population had been reduced by one third and the entire economic capacity of the lands we call germany today had been reduced to nil. A doctor called William Harvey, the guy who discovered the circulation of blood in the body, travelled through germany at this time. He said,

"By the way we could scarce see a dog, crow, kite, raven, or any bird, or anything to anatomize; only some few miserable people, the reliques of the war and the plague, whom famine had made anatomies before I came."

It was said that they only thing that could stop the war was exhaustion, and it was indeed exhaustion that stopped the war in the end. If any of the parties had the resources to go on fighting they would no doubt have done so cos such is the fervour of religious conflict. This war more than any other is the reason I believe that europeans tend to atheism. They've seen the worst of religion. The path of the Politique became their path. That is the idea of a secular government in which religion had no part to play. The loyalty of a citizen should be first and foremost to his nation, and secondly to his religion. This is the basis on which the United State of America was formed, and this was the notion that slowly took form in Europe too. Religion was slowly removed from the political sphere.

The Pope lost his political power and though he was still fond of making his opinions they were opinions that meant nothing to anyone in politics.

The war ended with the treaty of Westphalia. this reemphasised the cuius regio, eius religio. The treaty also established the independence of the various principalities of Germany. So now Bavaria had it's own government and taxation, and ambassadors etc, Prussia had it's own, Saxony had it's own, thuringia, Rhineland . . . etc etc etc.

This was exactly how the rest of Europe wanted them and it wasn't until 1871 when Otto Von Bismarck united the various German principalities into one country. Meanwhile in that time France had consolidated her power and dominated europe while establishing colonies around the world. England too. Spain was already in steady decline since England smashed her Armada and till today Spain still hasn't found her feet.

I hope that though we call this war a Religious war it is clear to everyone that religion plays a lesser role in the conflict than a simple scramble for political power.

hercules07: @Pastor AIO

You must continue o, some of your thoughts I do not agree with but this is quite interesting, now will Logic allow Pastor to finish what he has started? We all stand to gain a lot from this thread.

Thank you very much, my guy. Please which of my thoughts do you not agree with. I welcome any kind of criticism.

Pastor AIO:

Thank you very much, my guy. Please which of my thoughts do you not agree with. I welcome any kind of criticism.

Okay. Now that you have finished explaining the history of religion and war, my question is why do you still believe that your religion is a force for good when we have seen that it can also bring out the worst in human beings? Is christianity nt a mixture of good and bad instead?



Wouldnt it be fair to say that religion is like a gun- it can be used to protect people (eg police) and it can be used to kill innocent people (robbers). Religion is a tool. Religion has been used to enslave people and has been used to free people.


This is a simple question that is related to the topic. If religion can cause war, how is it totally good?

logicboy:


Okay. Now that you have finished explaining the history of religion and war, my question is why do you still believe that your religion is a force for good when we have seen that it can also bring out the worst in human beings? Is christianity nt a mixture of good and bad instead?



Wouldnt it be fair to say that religion is like a gun- it can be used to protect people (eg police) and it can be used to kill innocent people (robbers). Religion is a tool. Religion has been used to enslave people and has been used to free people.


This is a simple question that is related to the topic. If religion can cause war, how is it totally good?

In the same vein, I'd like to ask you a question
Wouldn't it be fair to say that science is like a gun- it can be used to protect people e.g helmet, vaccines, and it can be used to kill innocent people (bombs, guns, poisons).... Science(exploration) has been used to free and enslave people, right?

It isn't the tool that's deadly, it's the handler that's deadly. A knife in a surgeon's hand could be a tool for good or evil...


@PastorAIO: thanks for such an informative thread. I think it's good that people investigate the source of their beliefs.. it puzzles me that you know so much yet still hold on to what you believe in (Christianity), why so?

musKeeto:
In the same vein, I'd like to ask you a question
Wouldn't it be fair to say that science is like a gun- it can be used to protect people e.g helmet, vaccines, and it can be used to kill innocent people (bombs, guns, poisons).... Science(exploration) has been used to free and enslave people, right?

It isn't the tool that's deadly, it's the handler that's deadly. A knife in a surgeon's hand could be a tool for good or evil...


@PastorAIO: thanks for such an informative thread. I think it's good that people investigate the source of their beliefs.. it puzzles me that you know so much yet still hold on to what you believe in (Christianity), why so?

Did science ever claim to be the authority of morality or ever claim to be good? No science only tries to explain or investigate things or manufacture things. I agree that science is only a tool.


However, relgion claims to be the moral authority. If christianity is a tool that can be used to enslave or free people. Then christianity can not be the moral authority. God is not the moral authority. Man, who is the ultimate handler, decides his faith

logicboy:


Okay. Now that you have finished explaining the history of religion and war, my question is why do you still believe that your religion is a force for good when we have seen that it can also bring out the worst in human beings? Is christianity nt a mixture of good and bad instead?

Hello logicboy, I'm sorry but I don't ever recall discussing my religious beliefs with you. You'll have to tell me where I discussed my religion with you and then I'll explain myself from there.

musKeeto:
@PastorAIO: thanks for such an informative thread. I think it's good that people investigate the source of their beliefs.. it puzzles me that you know so much yet still hold on to what you believe in (Christianity), why so?

You would have to tell me what you understand as christianity before I agree with you that I hold on to it.

Pastor AIO:

Hello logicboy, I'm sorry but I don't ever recall discussing my religious beliefs with you. You'll have to tell me where I discussed my religion with you and then I'll explain myself from there.




You would have to tell me what you understand as christianity before I agree with you that I hold on to it.

Stop dodging the question, bro.

If you do not want to answer the question, say so.


Whether you discussed your religious beliefs with me or not is irrelevant. Answer the question if you are a pastor or a christian.

logicboy:


Stop dodging the question, bro.

If you do not want to answer the question, say so.


Whether you discussed your religious beliefs with me or not is irrelevant. Answer the question if you are a pastor or a christian.

I believe that reading through the following threads will help you understand where I'm coming from a lot better:

https://www.nairaland.com/335826/pastor-aio-come-teach-us


Check out this thread from page 2:

https://www.nairaland.com/365895/mavenbox-deepsights-exegeses-rudiments-salvation/2

and this:

https://www.nairaland.com/630887/kingdom-heaven

Pastor AIO:

I believe that reading through the following threads will help you understand where I'm coming from a lot better:

https://www.nairaland.com/335826/pastor-aio-come-teach-us


Check out this thread from page 2:

https://www.nairaland.com/365895/mavenbox-deepsights-exegeses-rudiments-salvation/2

and this:

https://www.nairaland.com/630887/kingdom-heaven

Thank you. Anyone following this thread can see that you're a charlatan that shouldnt be taken seriously. You have tried and tried to avoid a simple question.

logicboy:


Did science ever claim to be the authority of morality or ever claim to be good? No science only tries to explain or investigate things or manufacture things. I agree that science is only a tool.


However, relgion claims to be the moral authority. If christianity is a tool that can be used to enslave or free people. Then christianity can not be the moral authority. God is not the moral authority. Man, who is the ultimate handler, decides his faith

So because science doesn't claim to be the authority of morality, science should be excused for the nuclear bombs in Hiroshima? Do you have an issue with God or religion?

Pastor AIO:

I believe that reading through the following threads will help you understand where I'm coming from a lot better:

https://www.nairaland.com/335826/pastor-aio-come-teach-us


Check out this thread from page 2:

https://www.nairaland.com/365895/mavenbox-deepsights-exegeses-rudiments-salvation/2

and this:

https://www.nairaland.com/630887/kingdom-heaven

Will read the threads later today. Hopefully, I'll be back with more questions...

musKeeto:

So because science doesn't claim to be the authority of morality, science should be excused for the nuclear bombs in Hiroshima? Do you have an issue with God or religion?

When did I say that science is to be excused? You are grasping at straws bro. I will be the first to admit that science is only a tool that can be used for good (medicine, computers) or evil (bombs, poisonous gases).

Science is a tool. That's why only one country used it's nuclear bombs to kill civilians. Pakistan, Isreal and Russia have not used their nuclear power to destroy other countries

Religious people on the other hand deny that religion is a tool

So let's thank God for science, hold on to our beliefs, and if we have a problem with religion, attack the TOP not the illiterate fools at the bottom. Except you can answer the PRAYERS that they pray to their NON-EXISTENT GOD... why not leave 'hope' for the hopeless.. or don't atheists have a heart?

musKeeto: So let's thank God for science, hold on to our beliefs, and if we have a problem with religion, attack the TOP not the illiterate fools at the bottom. Except you can answer the PRAYERS that they pray to their NON-EXISTENT GOD... why not leave 'hope' for the hopeless.. or don't atheists have a heart?

??

Do you need religion to have hope?

As an atheist I can only hope Nigeria will get better

logicboy:


Thank you. Anyone following this thread can see that you're a charlatan that shouldnt be taken seriously. You have tried and tried to avoid a simple question.

Okay, I'll try to answer your question.

logicboy:


Okay. Now that you have finished explaining the history of religion and war, my question is why do you still believe that your religion is a force for good when we have seen that it can also bring out the worst in human beings? Is christianity nt a mixture of good and bad instead?

Religion cannot bring out the worst in human beings, but rather the very best. It is a force of good. why do I believe so? Because I experience it.

Okay?

Pastor AIO:




Religion cannot bring out the worst in human beings, but rather the very best. It is a force of good. why do I believe so? Because I experience it.

Okay?

Thanks for your answer


-Inquisition where unbelievers were murdered and tortured
-European slavery
-Isrealites owning slaves from conquered lands


These evil atrocities all have christian religion at the core of them. Are you in denial of christianity's ability to bring out the worst in man?

logicboy:


Thanks for your answer


-Inquisition where unbelievers were murdered and tortured
-European slavery
-Isrealites owning slaves from conquered lands


These evil atrocities all have christian religion at the core of them. Are you in denial of christianity's ability to bring out the worst in man?

Thank you, but there is no reference to religion in anything that you wrote above.

Pastor AIO:

Thank you, but there is no reference to religion in anything that you wrote above.

Really?


I should have known that you're a mad man. How any normal person can live in a fantasy world where christianity has not caused wars and atrocities should be left in an asylum.

You sir, are a first class christian nut-job.

logicboy:


Really?


I should have known that you're a mad man. How any normal person can live in a fantasy world where christianity has not caused wars and atrocities should be left in an asylum.

You sir, are a first class christian nut-job.

Muchos gracias, and same to you too sir.

The last time I read a whole thread on nairaland agadi nwanyi was still groving regularly at four points hotel. I have so much respect for your views pastor even though I don't agree with some of them, but this thread right here is a classic. I am lazy and typing from a phone so bear with me if this is not long and concise enough.
First things first,
@Logicboy
Bros I hail, I want to make an appeal to you, if only for this thread. Like you I do not hold any beliefs in God, gods or stuff like that. Like you I think most of christianity makes no sense especially if you were one before. Like you I felt cheated and betrayed and I was angry and lashed out as much as I could, for what its worth I think people like you are needed here, I remember reading the feuds here way back before I even joined, there was huxley,nferyn, bros mazaje and this chick atheist that gave davidylan(whom i respect for standing by his own views) a run for his money on the whole evolution thing, even jesoul was not a MOD(she was not even married then oh you need to see how we all d̶̲̥̅̊ε̲̣γ̲̣ toast her na), krayola, OLAAdegbu, annoying toba, interesting Deep sight. I must confess sha I did learn a lot from those things. But one thing I slowly realised was there was really no point to the animosity, it even began to amuse me because I saw no sense in "Fighting with a madman", I was sure either one party or both parties were "mad" but still it did not matter.
What am I saying here, for now you play the role that was and has been played by many people her myself inclusive, we all have our seasons and at some point it would be nice to actually listen to someone and learn something. I started by listening to M_nwankwo, something about the way he responded wanted to make me listen to him all the time even if I did not agree, same thing pastor AIO from whom I learned a lot from, and if you took the time to do your homework or humbly asked why "pastor" then you would have been giving the same confusing shit I swallowed just with the satisfaction that its not the conventional pastor you and I know. In summary Sir, pick your battles, not everything is worth fighting over and sometimes you might just learn a thing or two.


@Pastor AIO
Na wa for you oh I feel intimidated, how you take know these things eh? I have to read these things over and over again, absorb it and come up with a model of what I think is going on here in Nigeria, and I totally agree that respect tolerance and shit like that aint gonna cut it when it comes to religion, things simply cannot be reasoned out in this sphere of life. The only real way to deal with it is to remove it totally from the sphere of political life and really be a secular nation. Turkey is a good country that comes to mind even thought the islamists are taking over slowly, my take is religion should have no place in our laws and society. But how do the yankees manage it? This is most def a thread to explore, if work gree me I will take the time to take apart and try to analyse these events. Cheers bros.

Chrisbenogor:

@Pastor AIO
Na wa for you oh I feel intimidated, how you take know these things eh? I have to read these things over and over again, absorb it and come up with a model of what I think is going on here in Nigeria, and I totally agree that respect tolerance and shit like that aint gonna cut it when it comes to religion, things simply cannot be reasoned out in this sphere of life. The only real way to deal with it is to remove it totally from the sphere of political life and really be a secular nation. Turkey is a good country that comes to mind even thought the islamists are taking over slowly, my take is religion should have no place in our laws and society. But how do the yankees manage it? This is most def a thread to explore, if work gree me I will take the time to take apart and try to analyse these events. Cheers bros.

Bros, thanks for the support. If I talk say na spirit lead me to all these things I know say you no go accept that one, so let us just say that I have a passion for history.

For me for me, personally, I believe in a unified Nigeria. Even more than that I am a Pan Africanist. I do not believe that the impetus for all the Boko Haram nonsense comes from within Nigeria. I believe they are just pawns in the hands of some foreign forces. But why . . . ? That is what I'm not hundred per cent sure of yet.

I do not see how southern Nigeria can survive without the North. Where does all the food we consume in the south come from? All the meat? even all the veg?
Yoruba land is not so fertile. Igbo land is even less fertile. All the rivers in the delta area have been polluted. Na oil we wan chop? I reckon if managed properly Benue State alone can feed not only Nigeria but the whole of Africa.

However It will be very hard to convince nigerians to secularise their society and leave religion as a private matter. If you can believe that what your neighbour does in his room can affect your health and business (witchcraft) then it is a small step from that to wanting to monitor everything that he does in the privacy of his bedroom.

Pastor AIO:

Bros, thanks for the support. If I talk say na spirit lead me to all these things I know say you no go accept that one, so let us just say that I have a passion for history.

For me for me, personally, I believe in a unified Nigeria. Even more than that I am a Pan Africanist. I do not believe that the impetus for all the Boko Haram nonsense comes from within Nigeria. I believe they are just pawns in the hands of some foreign forces. But why . . . ? That is what I'm not hundred per cent sure of yet.

I do not see how southern Nigeria can survive without the North. Where does all the food we consume in the south come from? All the meat? even all the veg?
Yoruba land is not so fertile. Igbo land is even less fertile. All the rivers in the delta area have been polluted. Na oil we wan chop? I reckon if managed properly Benue State alone can feed not only Nigeria but the whole of Africa.

However It will be very hard to convince nigerians to secularise their society and leave religion as a private matter. If you can believe that what your neighbour does in his room can affect your health and business (witchcraft) then it is a small step from that to wanting to monitor everything that he does in the privacy of his bedroom.

Are you not a christian??

logicboy:


Are you not a christian??

Have I said anything to suggest that I'm not?

Chrisbenogor:

. .. if you took the time to do your homework or humbly asked why "pastor"

then you would have been giving the same confusing poo I swallowed

just with the satisfaction that its not the conventional pastor you and I know.

In summary Sir, pick your battles, not everything is worth fighting over and sometimes you might just learn a thing or two.

logicboy:

Are you not a christian??

Pastor AIO:

Have I said anything to suggest that I'm not?

Then Agrippa said to Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian.

Ogaga4Luv: [size=13pt]^{Honey , God is so useless in the World . each of us know that he's imaginary presence is bring so many problems enslaving people's mind not to learn about his fake identity .}[/size]

you have to believe in God to believe in the Devil.
Seriously.

In life there is always an opposite or oppositES.

but in this case, I'll keep it simple for you.
Red/Blue
Odd/Even
Young/Old
Good/dEvil

You cannot tell me you think God is imaginary but worship a being that is supposedly his opposite. It makes no logical sense. Even if you say 'Satan is the Lord', you STILL believe in a creator/supreme entity. So you Satanist contradict yourselves more than the religi-tards.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMqrowvHc2c

Interesting movie, it's a shame but I can't find the flash icon thing for posting up movies. Anybody that knows how to do it should please helep me. Thank you.

Well, would you believe but it does it automatically now. How wonderful!! The film was set during the 30 years war and captures the attitudes around at the time.

@Pastor
Better confess to these boys before I go and dig up an old thread about your "christian" beliefs


Where is kunleoshob self? e don tey I read anything from that guy oh.

Chrisbenogor: @Pastor
Better confess to these boys before I go and dig up an old thread about your "christian" beliefs


Where is kunleoshob self? e don tey I read anything from that guy oh.

I've already posted some links to some threads for them but somehow e be like say e dey pain them to follow link. Please, if you can find any others to get the point across to them, be my guest.

Kunle still dey battle Tithe matters o! But now he is known as PastorKun. Check him out. Nothing has changed there.

 
\ =D / yeee!
| i don laff throway petrol o!
/ \ ,
' ‎​ Chai! Really?
Ok I will go look for him.

[size=13pt]<sup>First of all, Jesus did not die for your sins. A daemon like Gandhi, Jesus, Joan of Arc, will sometimes give their life for an expressed cause, to set an example for others straining under the yoke of oppression. He was simply saying, "Look upon me. I lived life on my own terms, according to my own design, and I was willing to give my life rather than forfeit my divinity." It worked for a while, but his message of unity was seized... distorted by political opportunists... couched in lies and deception!

The Wheel of Life turns and cycles us through the ages of time where events are staged again and again, ad infinitum. On each corner page of history the same principle powers appear on the scene. Donning their mortal masks, they reenact the divine drama.</sup>[/size]

joe4christ:

And as for you ogaga, we all know your blabing wont change a thing and neither would it limit Jesus from being the everlasting father and prince of peace which he realy is.
Go tell lucifer he's nothing but a loser. And he knows it for himself, just that he does not admit it publicly, tell him his time is short and his reign as the God of this world are numbered. (As if he never already knew that already)

Ogaga4Luv: [size=13pt]<sup>First of all, Jesus did not die for your sins. A daemon like Gandhi, Jesus, Joan of Arc, will sometimes give their life for an expressed cause, to set an example for others straining under the yoke of oppression. He was simply saying, "Look upon me. I lived life on my own terms, according to my own design, and I was willing to give my life rather than forfeit my divinity." It worked for a while, but his message of unity was seized... distorted by political opportunists... couched in lies and deception!

The Wheel of Life turns and cycles us through the ages of time where events are staged again and again, ad infinitum. On each corner page of history the same principle powers appear on the scene. Donning their mortal masks, they reenact the divine drama.</sup>[/size]

Just listen to yourself, deception from the heir of deception (Lucifer) himself!