SEFAGO:

hehe, I have gotten so many rejections in the past two days its quite demoralizing. I am a few steps away from breaking into tears

Its tough to get rejected by many grad schools but please do not give up. You can still get a yes for this fall.

Please dont hit yourself. Sometimes its a "sitting space" problem. Many grad schools receive applications from more qualified applicants than they can admit.

Mail profs at your proposed dept. Indicate your admission status. If the prof in question cant ask for a reversal, indicate your willingness to apply for the next admission cycle. Do a lot of research before you send that mail. Remeber applying to grad depts/schools with research focus like yours will do your application a ton of good.

Also try applying to some safety schools. That is schools with min. qualifications far below your GPA, GRE and TOEFL scores.

If you do decide to apply again, also consider applying very early. Have a complete application (this includes having all your recs and transcripts on file in the school) several weeks before the deadline. This idea, however, is hotly contested by some applicants I know. They feel applying a little late is ok. Personally I think having a late or almost late application potentially does more harm than good.

Just thinking about the stress of applying is stressful but now there is the added experience from former applications so the process would hopefully be easier. Wishing you good luck and testimonies right here on NL.

SEFAGO:

Yeah it sucks. I have gotten a somewhat offer from a very lowly ranked school though lol but it was my safety. I still have to nail that one. It is a big name school but lowly ranked in my field of interest. So when you applied for your PhD did you write the professors you wanted to work for? And did you contact professors? I know people who got in the backdoor route- they knew and had done research with professors in the evaluation committee.

"backdoor route" sounds like "unfair route".

Considering the nature of research at grad schools (at least the hard sciences like engineering), applicants with research experience (especially gained under a prof on the eval comm) are highly sought. All admission comms will look kindly on "continuity".

1. You dont need a new research orientation which may take the better part of a semester or two (potential savings in time).

2. Funding (for Reserach Assistants) most often come from the prof's research group via highly contested and limited govt/industry sources. Its smarter to give (yes, that GA stipend is really a gift from God to many nigerians) money to someone whose research capabilities you can verify personally than someone you know from an application (canda/kpali/paper), (potential savings in money).

Ofcourse there is the possibility that students with little or no experience with or without the prof may become excellent research assistants. However, when money and time is involved, most managers (including grad school managers) will choose to err on the side of caution.

so you do guys think that I should contact professors in the schools I still have pending? I doubt much could be done now, but is there harm in trying? I wish I knew this- but I dont want to reapply again though. If I dont get in I dont want to apply.

By the way for anyone who completed the PhD. how any years did it take you?

haha just got another rejection- this is one of my worst application seasons lol

SEFAGO:

so you do guys think that I should contact professors in the schools I still have pending? I doubt much could be done now, but is there harm in trying? I wish I knew this- but I dont want to reapply again though. If I dont get in I dont want to apply.

By the way for anyone who completed the PhD. how any years did it take you?

I would suggest you contact as many as you can. Have you checked for Nigerian/African/Black professor in the programs you applied to?

As per not wanting to apply again, I truly understand where you are coming from, as I told myself same when I was applying.
Still a little set back shouldn't stand in the way of you achieving your goals. Rather, I would advise (hopefully wont be needed, particularly since you have one offer already) that if you dont make it, that you spend the next months making sure you make it the next time around.

MS/PhD in Engineering (to my knowledge) will typically take 5-7 yrs, with the duration depending highly on your adviser.

Yeah i have checked. None so far- the school i got accepted in has a Nigerian professor- and thats the only school. Most of the professors are white or Asians so far and lol the asian professors research groups consisted of 100% asians haha. I am not welcome lol.

Anyways I would keep looking and keeping my fingers crossed, this was way more difficult than I speculated. Also I am at significant disadvantage because I am transitioning from the hard sciences to engineering.

MS/PhD in Engineering (to my knowledge) will typically take 5-7 yrs, with the duration depending highly on your adviser.

LOL, quite long. I am beginning to consider other options, I would have preferred to do a masters- quicker and get a job without any hassle. Anyways let me see how things shape out.

@Superbrain,
I am going for Chemical Engineering. I want to keep the name of the school to myself for now for personal reasons. LOL. I have registered for the TOEFL and i will be taking it very soon. Wish you "GOODLUCK" in your applications.

@SEFAGO,
Your case is rather pathetic, but I will join others in advising you not to give up. Try and mail the Profs again and again.

^haha yeah i know lol

This is a very interesting thread, probably the best one I have seen here.
@ Sefago, are you on College confidential? Your user name seems pretty familiar. Anyway, don't give up hope, things would get better. The good thing I have found with Academia is that, if you truly love it and are prepared to do what is required, you'll get where you want to go.
I have also been considering graduate school for a long time now, but I am just so torn between a lot of different options. I transferred away from my previous school because of lack of research opportunities. However, I have just recently realised that engineering might now be for me. I am doing really well actually which makes it a little problematic, but I have just discovered that I don't like Labs or Research very much. May be it's the research or may be it's Me! I don't know. I am thinking of a US medical school or even Law school. I am so confused that I have even started preping for the Lsat( the thought of debt kills me) while planning how I can rush through the premed reqs.

My line of action is to keep my gpa above 3.8 at the bare minimum so as to have these options open for me. I don't see myself running a lab someday so I think i might avoid that option. I had an option of graduating a year early, but I have basically scraped that option since I don't even know what to do. I am hoping an internship this summer world work that out for me.

As for the transition from hard sciences and engineering, I don't think it would be that hard froma chemical engineering stand point, atleast not like going from say physics to Meche. You do well, its just the applications aspect that might stump you a little at the beginning.

I urge you guys to check out Duke and Carnegie Mellon too, they are nice schools that go under the radar sometimes. I hope this cycle works out well for everyone.

This is a very interesting thread, probably the best one I have seen here.
@ Sefago, are you on College confidential? Your user name seems pretty familiar. Anyway, don't give up hope, things would get better. The good thing I have found with Academia is that, if you truly love it and are prepared to do what is required, you'll get where you want to go.
I have also been considering graduate school for a long time now, but I am just so torn between a lot of different options. I transferred away from my previous school because of lack of research opportunities. However, I have just recently realised that engineering might now be for me. I am doing really well actually which makes it a little problematic, but I have just discovered that I don't like Labs or Research very much. May be it's the research or may be it's Me! I don't know. I am thinking of a US medical school or even Law school. I am so confused that I have even started preping for the Lsat( the thought of debt kills me) while planning how I can rush through the premed reqs.

My line of action is to keep my gpa above 3.8 at the bare minimum so as to have these options open for me. I don't see myself running a lab someday so I think i might avoid that option. I had an option of graduating a year early, but I have basically scraped that option since I don't even know what to do. I am hoping an internship this summer world work that out for me.

As for the transition from hard sciences and engineering, I don't think it would be that hard froma chemical engineering stand point, atleast not like going from say physics to Meche. You do well, its just the applications aspect that might stump you a little at the beginning.

I urge you guys to check out Duke and Carnegie Mellon too, they are nice schools that go under the radar sometimes. I hope this cycle works out well for everyone.

Yeah I am the culprit lol. Yeah I haven't given up hope yet but things dont look too good from my end. When I applied to college, I did not get rejected by any top school and so its a bit of a shock being rejected at mid tier graduate schools. However, as I said the transition from

I urge you guys to check out Duke and Carnegie Mellon too, they are nice schools that go under the radar sometimes. I hope this cycle works out well for everyone.

Duke did not have the program I wanted though, I should have applied to their Mechanical Engineering Dept or Biomedical Eng. though.

Carnegie mellon is very hard to get into

Yeah labs are really not my favorite either but that is because I might not be doing the right type of research. I think my research skills will shine more when I am in the right environment. However if you dont like research, a PhD is not the best option for you. How long have you being doing reserach?

LOL, By the way you sound a lot like me, I did the premed-> law school-> graduate school path

Law school would have been a good idea lol, my undergrad places people in Harvard Law, and Columbia law like no mans business. But I ran away for the same reason- too much debt. I always wanted to study engineering because I do have superior math skills (not blowing my trumpet or anything ). I think I would be happy in research though.


Where did you tranfer to and from btw?

PM me if you are uncomfortable putting it online.

I think my fears are now manifesting. I had a premonition of serious difficulties (especially for international applicants) in getiing into graduate programmes in the US this year.
It's a public knowledge that the US has been in the centre of the never abating global economic crunch, and this, I'm sure, has severely reduced (I mean relatively diminished) the amount of research grants and donations many companies and institutions give to most schools (or professors). So professors have very limited positions compared to what they used to have, as constrained by the little funds they have.
It is also known globally that a lot of Americans are now jobless as another consequence of this monster (financial meltdown). People will naturally think of doing something to raise their profiles (so they might increase their chances of getting a job) by going for graduate degrees (masters and PhDs). The result of this is evident. That many graduate programmes mention a significant increase in the amount of applications received by them in the many rejection letters they've been serving to applicants lately, is not so surprising to me.
What do we expect as a consequence of this domino effect? A huge number of applicants vying for very limited available positions.
If I had followed my mind (and words of advice) not apply to a highly competitive school, maybe my first notification wouldn't be a rejection

BlackkBoy:

I think my fears are now manifesting. I had a premonition of serious difficulties (especially for international applicants) in getiing into graduate programmes in the US this year.
It's a public knowledge that the US has been in the centre of the never abating global economic crunch, and this, I'm sure, has severely reduced (I mean relatively diminished) the amount of research grants and donations many companies and institutions give to most schools (or professors). So professors have very limited positions compared to what they used to have, as constrained by the little funds they have.
It is also known globally that a lot of Americans are now jobless as another consequence of this monster (financial meltdown). People will naturally think of doing something to raise their profiles (so they might increase their chances of getting a job) by going for graduate degrees (masters and PhDs). The result of this is evident. That many graduate programmes mention a significant increase in the amount of applications received by them in the many rejection letters they've been serving to applicants lately, is not so surprising to me.
What do we expect as a consequence of this domino effect? A huge number of applicants vying for very limited available positions.
If I had followed my mind (and words of advice) not apply to a highly competitive school, maybe my first notification wouldn't be a rejection

^ Not really International students still get offers in droves. It just depends on how good you are and the school you are applying to. I wish I had the opportunity to consider California schools but disregarded them because they are notorious for being hostile to International students. I bet you got the Princeton rejection lol. They sent out notifications to everyone on the 11th of February. If you did not get this thank your lucky stars you might be a finalist for admission. However note, if you applied to ChemE at Princeton they rarely take International students mostly preferring Americans.

However what you said is noteworthy. Some programs reported the literal doubling of applicants, though I dont know if the quality has gone up.

Goodluck though- as I mentioned earlier if you can secure a masters, you could definitely leverage yourself into MIT/Stanford and all those type of and those other schools in the future.

I thought it was you lol. I like to think that I have a photographic memory even though it sometimes fails me. I transferred to Cornell, but I have only spent one semester there before going for this research internship that I am currently doing. Ithaca is too cold lol. I have been doing research for one year(well, It would be one year in April when I finish this). One of the main reasons why I took this research thing is that I realized that popsi was shelling out major cash for Cornell. I am not the only child, and my dad isn't a politician so I felt kinda bad. I am using this research thing to also figure out what I really want to do. I am also going to try transfer admissions for the last time, hopefully I can crack the places I want. Even if I don't, I am still pretty happy with my results so far.

I think I might end up in a management and engineering sciences type phd program. The ones at MIT and Stanford are pretty good. There is also a pretty good joint program at HBS. I am in the interview process for a particular internship right now. If I get this summer internship-which is a pretty big IF- then the path to a good MBA program would be easier. I am just trying stuff out to see what I might enjoy doing in the future, even though I know things would change. It's funny, I thought I would enjoy research so I feel angry at myself for even considering other options.

Carnegie Mellon is such a good school, it's in a nice city too. Princeton has a pretty good ChemE program, but its MechE is just decent, besides I have never really liked NJ. Such a terrible place.

Hey, sefago, If you don't like your results for this cycle, you could take a research position for a year and then reapply with better recs and SOP. That might also help you to narrow down your options better. It is a pretty crazy process, stepping out of it a bit can be of much help.

One question for you guys applying to phd programs though, do you see yourselves going the Phd -->> Post doc -->> Assistant prof route? I think it is pretty important to keep that in mind too.

flo_path:

I thought it was you lol. I like to think that I have a photographic memory even though it sometimes fails me. I transferred to Cornell, but I have only spent one semester there before going for this research internship that I am currently doing. Ithaca is too cold lol. I have been doing research for one year(well, It would be one year in April when I finish this). One of the main reasons why I took this research thing is that I realized that popsi was shelling out major cash for Cornell.  I am not the only child, and my dad isn't a politician so I felt kinda bad. I am using this research thing to also figure out what I really want to do. I am also going to try transfer admissions for the last time, hopefully I can crack the places I want. Even if I don't, I am still pretty happy with my results so far.

I think I might end up in a management and engineering sciences type phd program. The ones at MIT and Stanford are pretty good. There is also a pretty good joint program at HBS. I am in the interview process for a particular internship right now. If I get this summer internship-which is a pretty big IF-  then the path to a good MBA program would be easier. I am just trying stuff out to see what I might enjoy doing in the future, even though I know things would change. It's funny, I thought I would enjoy research so I feel angry at myself for even considering other options.

Carnegie Mellon is such a good school, it's in a nice city too.  Princeton has a pretty good ChemE program, but its MechE is just decent, besides I have never really liked NJ. Such a terrible place.

Hey, sefago, If you don't like your results for this cycle, you could take a research position for a year and then reapply with better recs and SOP. That might also help you to narrow down your options better. It is a pretty crazy process, stepping out of it a bit can be of much help.

One question for you guys applying to phd programs though, do you see yourselves going the Phd -->> Post doc -->> Assistant prof route? I think it is pretty important to keep that in mind too.

Oh Ok, I actually think I know who you are then. Its really easy for me to spot naija ppl on CC.

Yeah I heard Ithaca sucks a bit, I got into Cornell for undergrad but one of the reasons I decided not to go was lack of money and the cold rural new york area. However looking back I think braving the cold might have helped since I might have decided to do engineering. But your options would be so numerous if you come out of Cornell with good grades- infact you wouldn't sweat getting into any engineering program. I actually dont know anyone at Cornell but I know a couple at Columbia though so I cant ask u about any naija peeps.

So how many years have u being going? Like seriously you should not transfer again man, focus on your grades- (haha I am the last person to advise anyone) and spend more time. I have met a couple of people who post-graduated from Cornell and they are at MIT, Caltech, Stanford and all those good schools for engineering. Its all about the grades man not the school you went to- or does this have to do with financial aid?

Considering other options, You mentioned law school. I know you are worried about debt, but consider scholarships which are rare but anything can happen. Some schools award funds of up to 120,000 dollars (ColumNorthUmich are three schools which do ) and the money you make coming out of these schools is atrocious. You just have to loan the rest and live from hands to mouth for 3 years

Also Business school does cost money and it might be hard getting into one straight as a senior from undergrad. Have you heard of the 4+2 program in HBS- check it out quite interesting especially if you are engineering.

Yeah Pton's ChemE is hard, I dont know what I was smoking that made me apply there. And my stupid professors where like you would get into every school you apply (Probably because I am black), then I get this bunch of stupid rejections hehe.

As for me, I dont know what I am going to do- I would prefer to PM you the school I might have gotten an offer and ask your opinion about it, when it is official. However right now things are not looking great.

As for the Academia route, interesting question actually, one i don't have an answer to yet. It depends on where I finally attend. I was leaning towards industry but then with no options on the table I am a bit ambiguous.

hi all thanks 4 ur contributions so far. am an undergrad major in biochemistry. but my life's ultimate goal is to attend us med school. All the us med sch require that i have 1 year academic in the us.I am considering going for masters but some other suggested IB or pre med pls am confused which do i go for all i want is to complete 1 year requirement since my undergrad is not in us

^ Do you have plans to pay for the $200,000 medical education in the US? No, then forget it

@SEFAGO keep your head up. I too was rejected from all my choices the first time I applied last year. Now I've applied again but I have a potential job with an oil company in naij so I'm not as stressed as the first time around. I'd honestly advice you to do some additional research, try to raise your GPA, reddo GRE if you got below 1450 and try to apply for the spring semsester. I totally understand what you mean about asian (indian and chinese mostly) professors only hiring students who share the same nationality with them and maye one or two whites. Thats messed up. Im go better for us sha.

@jamebex med school is bloody expensive and tough to get into. My sister's GPA is 3.9 and her MCAT scores were also very good. Basically she applied to medical school for a whole year before finally getting into a school which wants evidence of $240,000 in an account or something ridiculoue. My point is unless you are very, very smart or very, vert loaded do not bother with US medical school. I think the UK is a bit cheaper and the quality of education you receive there is similar  to what you'll get in the US. My uncle trained in the UK some 30 years ago and now works as a profesor/medical doctor in the US.

SEFAGO:

^ Do you have plans to pay for the $200,000 medical education in the US? No, then forget it 

To put things in clearer perspective

The $555,000 Student-Loan Burden
When Michelle Bisutti, a 41-year-old family practitioner in Columbus, Ohio, finished medical school in 2003, her student-loan debt amounted to roughly $250,000. Since then, it has ballooned to $555,000.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB20001424052748703389004575033063806327030.html

kyuubi:

To put things in clearer perspective

The $555,000 Student-Loan Burden
When Michelle Bisutti, a 41-year-old family practitioner in Columbus, Ohio, finished medical school in 2003, her student-loan debt amounted to roughly $250,000. Since then, it has ballooned to $555,000.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB20001424052748703389004575033063806327030.html

Yeah I read that. A lot of Americans are like that though- borrowing a lot of money to finance their education thinking it would pay off.

@jamebex med school is bloody expensive and tough to get into. My sister's GPA is 3.9 and her MCAT scores were also very good. Basically she applied to medical school for a whole year before finally getting into a school which wants evidence of $240,000 in an account or something ridiculoue. My point is unless you are very, very smart or very, vert loaded do not bother with US medical school. I think the UK is a bit cheaper and the quality of education you receive there is similar to what you'll get in the US. My uncle trained in the UK some 30 years ago and now works as a profesor/medical doctor in the US.

Was that school Hopkins? I know they require 240K in an Escrow account (I learned that word from American medical schools- ole barawo )

The best thing to do, and what most asians do (These guys are going to take over the world I can confidently say because they use their common sense) is train to be doctors in their country (MBBS/ first medical degree), and then come to the US for a masters in medical biochemistry or something stupid like that. While they are doing this, they sit for the USMLE, get the best grades possible and then try and get residency in a medical clinic ( You are not included in the H1B Work visa quota system if you work in a hospital/health clinic). Voila they become doctors in America. You really dont have to go to a $50,000school in America to be a doctor- you just need to use your brain.

@SEFAGO keep your head up. I too was rejected from all my choices the first time I applied last year. Now I've applied again but I have a potential job with an oil company in naij so I'm not as stressed as the first time around. I'd honestly advice you to do some additional research, try to raise your GPA, reddo GRE if you got below 1450 and try to apply for the spring semsester. I totally understand what you mean about asian (indian and chinese mostly) professors only hiring students who share the same nationality with them and maye one or two whites. Thats messed up. Im go better for us sha.

I got a high above a 1450, my GPA might have been iffy but not that bad, I took some of the hardest classes in my school. I had taken 2 PhD level classes and I am currently on my third. 1+ year research experience (Independent research mind you, which is similar to what Graduate students do)- infact if I work an additional semester, I might have something published in a paper. However, the big problem is the transition from Hard Sciences--> Engineering. I have already gotten into PhD programs in my department choice (Really top schools), but I have gotten rejected everywhere in engineering sucky lol.

Speaking of Asians professors- yes they do play a bit of favoritism but not too much. I would too if I was a professor but one has to consider the familiarity factor. For example, I see someone with a first class from OAU or UI ( I would be aware that this is very hard to get and would place him at the top of the pile). However, I cannot interpret the GPA requirement of someone from IIT or Tsinghua University which are the premier institutions in their countries even though I know these schools. Moreover professors work with people they are comfortable with, who speak the same languages and such. Anyways I think the real problem was my non-engineering background and far less with anything else. I think the best thing would be for me to do a masters in engineering and then apply for a PhD- this was what I was advised to do, by someone who had experience in such things. However, one of my seniors in university got into Caltech for a PhD in Environmental Engineering and so I thought it would not be that hard, until I found out that his research advisor had contacts with the environmental engineering department- case in point, never use someones situation as a parallel for yours.

I didn't realise your first degree was in a science. In that case it'll probably be very tough but possible. I don't think you should completely give up on applying for a PhD. Try applying to 3 average to lower ranked schools for a PhD and 6 good to average schools for an MS (thesis).
All the schools I applied to for petroleum engineering have different policies regarding the students they accept based on their undergrad major. The one thing that's clear is that if you are applying for a program different to what you studied you better be very smart (stellar GPA and GRE).
One of the schools I applied to only takes students with an undergrad in PE,  while all the others take anyone with an undegrad degree in engineering (with the exception of systems, computer, software and electrical engineering) and one of them will take any engineer and anyone with a background in physical sciences such as physics and chemistry. For the engineers, the levelling courses required will take an additional semester but for the scientists it could take up to a year depending on whether or not you took core engineering subjects like thermodynamics, engineering mechanics etc. Now these are by no means ivy league schools (after reading profiles on collegeconfidential I've decided not to even bother) but they are at the top of their game for petroleum engineering so I'm assuming for chemical engineering it would be somewhat similar. Just do your research on potential schools you want to apply to and see what their policy dictates.
I totally see what your'e saying about the Asian professors but if American professors did the same thing in the 60's, 70's and 80's when most of these professors were applying for PhD;s then how would those Asian professors have ever gotten into grad school in America? I think admission should be based purely on merit and not who the professor thinks he'll have a lot in common with dammit.

I didn't realise your first degree was in a science. In that case it'll probably be very tough but possible. I don't think you should completely give up on applying for a PhD. Try applying to 3 average to lower ranked schools for a PhD and 6 good to average schools for an MS (thesis).
All the schools I applied to for petroleum engineering have different policies regarding the students they accept based on their undergrad major. The one thing that's clear is that if you are applying for a program different to what you studied you better be very smart (stellar GPA and GRE).
One of the schools I applied to only takes students with an undergrad in PE,  while all the others take anyone with an undegrad degree in engineering (with the exception of systems, computer, software and electrical engineering) and one of them will take any engineer and anyone with a background in physical sciences such as physics and chemistry. For the engineers, the levelling courses required will take an additional semester but for the scientists it could take up to a year depending on whether or not you took core engineering subjects like thermodynamics, engineering mechanics etc. Now these are by no means ivy league schools (after reading profiles on collegeconfidential I've decided not to even bother) but they are at the top of their game for petroleum engineering so I'm assuming for chemical engineering it would be somewhat similar. Just do your research on potential schools you want to apply to and see what their policy dictates.

I know the policies and what you need to transit to an engineering grad program. In retrospect I significantly lack the prerequisites and such. Its really not that hard to get into a top engineering program- graduate school has always been considered the bottom of  the pile when it comes to lucrative career options for engineers but the science background screws it up a bit. The people on CC are actually very average academically, there are people with higher stats who just dont bother applying for graduate school and get jobs or go to professional school.

I totally see what your'e saying about the Asian professors but if American professors did the same thing in the 60's, 70's and 80's when most of these professors were applying for PhD;s then how would those Asian professors have ever gotten into grad school in America? I think admission should be based purely on merit and not who the professor thinks he'll have a lot in common with dammit.

It is based on merit. Most of these grad students from India for example are outstanding and they chew up the GRE and have significant research experience. Just that when its a 50-50 (If they have to pick between two students with similar academic qualities they might pull Lakshmi into the group over Olu or Chinedu  ).


By the way Bebure if you schooled in the UK- I think- why dont you try other schools like Imperial or UCl for engineering. I know UCL requires a 2-1 (Which i think is what you got?)

Americans schools are sometimes way too difficult compared to prestige levels. Its 100 times harder to get into a top 20 engineering school in the US which are all comparable to Imperial in Engineering quality (Except Harvard Engineering which is a s.h.itty engineering school no matter how much money they pump into it  )

pls guys thanks 4 the response. i
have friend who got accepted
for Msc biotechnol ogy on
research fellowship and
assistancship he would recieve
monthly stipend of $1000 plus
75% tuition plus health .do he
still need sponsor or financial
statemdent since the school is
sponsoring him. kinda worried.
note just finished nysc

SEFAGO:

I know the policies and what you need to transit to an engineering grad program. In retrospect I significantly lack the prerequisites and such. Its really not that hard to get into a top engineering program- graduate school has always been considered the bottom of  the pile when it comes to lucrative career options for engineers but the science background screws it up a bit. The people on CC are actually very average academically, there are people with higher stats who just dont bother applying for graduate school and get jobs or go to professional school.

It is based on merit. Most of these grad students from India for example are outstanding and they chew up the GRE and have significant research experience. Just that when its a 50-50 (If they have to pick between two students with similar academic qualities they might pull Lakshmi into the group over Olu or Chinedu  ).


By the way Bebure if you schooled in the UK- I think- why dont you try other schools like Imperial or UCl for engineering. I know UCL requires a 2-1 (Which i think is what you got?)

Americans schools are sometimes way too difficult compared to prestige levels. Its 100 times harder to get into a top 20 engineering school in the US which are all comparable to Imperial in Engineering quality (Except Harvard Engineering which is a s.h.itty engineering school no matter how much money they pump into it  )

Yeah I graduated with a 2:1 however I cannot see myself staying in the UK any longer, six years was fun but enough is enough. I prefer the American lifestlye and always have plus I think it's good to experience both systems. The only reason I ever did my A Levels and university in the UK was because my folks thought the US was not a good place for a young boy to go and that it would be easier to monitor me from the UK (they regret this now). My sisters all went straight to America after secodary school in Nigeria and are doing well.
But you are right about UK graduate programs being easier to get into. I have friends from my university in UK (which was ranked in the top 5 for mechanical engineering, 2nd for chemical engineering etc) who graduated with 2:2's and are now at UCL, Durham etc doing their masters. As for Imperial College, that's a different kettle- they require a 2:1 for all graduate programs except petroleum engineering for which they require a 1st. I may apply to one school in the UK if it's not too late but I really don't want to go back there.
I guess you're right about the merit stuff, there was this Indian guy at Georgia Tech who came 4th out of 900 students or something like that at IIT and who had a 4.0 GPA for undegrad and was maintaining a 3.9 as a PhD student at Georgia Tech. And he is not an isolated case.
What do you mean by grad school is considered bottom of the pile?

I guess you're right about the merit stuff, there was this Indian guy at Georgia Tech who came 4th out of 900 students or something like that at IIT and who had a 4.0 GPA for undegrad and was maintaining a 3.9 as a PhD student at Georgia Tech. And he is not an isolated case.
What do you mean by grad school is considered bottom of the pile?

That would be very hard to explain but its quite an interesting phenomena. Well for one you would notice that the large majority of people in PhD programs are Asians and less and less Americans do engineering and science PhD (So its really easier for them to get into a program). Usually the most sought out opportunities for people at top schools in the US are Investment banking, Consulting, Getting into medical/law school. Graduate schools is usually for the very academically minded types and PhD even moreso. Also most graduate schools are not considered as competitive as these programs (Bar top graduate schools) and removed IB. Like my roommate got into every PhD program he applied for- he is heading to Uchicago and turned down Harvard because he could - and he had a GPA of 3.54 (All he did everyday was watch American Football while I was working my ass of as a science student). The department he applied for has a 7.5% acceptance rate and despite his average GPA he was still a top applicant. However, my other roommate who is ten times smarter (GPA of 3.86) is going to an unranked medical school (Mostly for financial reasons though).

I guess you're right about the merit stuff, there was this Indian guy at Georgia Tech who came 4th out of 900 students or something like that at IIT and who had a 4.0 GPA for undegrad and was maintaining a 3.9 as a PhD student at Georgia Tech. And he is not an isolated case.
What do you mean by grad school is considered bottom of the pile?

Indians are smart thats the basic truth. Instead of us acknowledging it and working to be as brilliant as this people we will keep denying it claiming its their large population. I am sure when the guy is done he will get job offers from Boston Consulting Group while the Nigerian is obsessed with getting a job at an oil company. One way mind .

SEFAGO:

Indians are smart thats the basic truth. Instead of us acknowledging it and working to be as brilliant as this people we will keep denying it claiming its their large population. I am sure when the guy is done he will get job offers from Boston Consulting Group while the Nigerian is obsessed with getting a job at an oil company. One way mind  .

I disagree. There is no racial bias in intellectual abilities. What you could say is that those from less well off background tend to be more aggressive and while those that are from more comfortable origins often get complacent. Same percentile of students from different countries, often have similar intellectual abilities. Those from better academic foundation might fare better initially, but thing usually even out after the first year.
Unfortunately, there is an avalanche effect in academia, as programs tend to use existing students as a strong measure of the performance of future admits. Thus you have a situation of the 'rich getting richer' and certain populations grow at the detriment of others, not because they are inherently better, but more because they are the incumbent majority.

SEFAGO:

Indians are smart thats the basic truth. Instead of us acknowledging it and working to be as brilliant as this people we will keep denying it claiming its their large population. I am sure when the guy is done he will get job offers from Boston Consulting Group while the Nigerian is obsessed with getting a job at an oil company. One way mind .

Indians are smart up to a point. Migrant Indians, as opposed to Indians in general, are notably generally smarter. That could be a function of the fact that these represent the cream of a population of 1bn plus.

However, if you take Africans in general, the migrant Indians are more successful than the migrant African so there is some truth to your point. In reality, as much as it's politically incorrect to say, intellectual ability differs amongst races.

biina:

I disagree. There is no racial bias in intellectual abilities. What you could say is that those from less well off background tend to be more aggressive and while those that are from more comfortable origins often get complacent. Same percentile of students from different countries, often have similar intellectual abilities. Those from better academic foundation might fare better initially, but thing usually even out after the first year.
Unfortunately, there is an avalanche effect in academia, as programs tend to use existing students as a strong measure of the performance of future admits. Thus you have a situation of the 'rich getting richer' and certain populations grow at the detriment of others, not because they are inherently better, but more because they are the incumbent majority.

When I mean smart not intrinsically or genetically smart- that would be a bold statement- but smart in knowing what to do and making use of every little opportunity available to them. I really dont believe in intellectual ability and see it as a kind of myth- like I dont think I am better than anyone because I had better grades than them, just that I am a bit more ambitious and driven. People would disagree with me on this point, but I still hold that success is 10% innate ability and 90% drive.This is where I agree with your statement:

What you could say is that those from less well off background tend to be more aggressive and while those that are from more comfortable origins often get complacent.

I have noticed it a lot both back in Nigeria and moreso in the US. Just like what i just told bebure about less Americans (especially top students)  going into graduate school and research and opting for more lucrative career options. Like I noticed that a large number of Asians who have parents who did a PhD (probably so that they could stay in the US, and escape third world conditions) and none of these second generation Asians would consider the stress of working for a PhD instead going to the far more lucrative option of going to law school (Where at the top you are guaranteed a salary of $120,000 after 3 years of school or just moving into investment banking).

I was once talking to my research mentor/professor and he told me that his children make twice as much as he does- they are Investment bankers. His own incentive for getting a PhD and going the professorial route was a better life in the US compared to his home country in China.

4 Play:

Indians are smart up to a point. Migrant Indians, as opposed to Indians in general, are notably generally smarter. That could be a function of the fact that these represent the cream of a population of 1bn plus.

However, if you take Africans in general, the migrant Indians are more successful than the migrant African so there is some truth to your point. In reality, as much as it's politically incorrect to say, intellectual ability differs amongst races.

I beg to differ. American embassy don't take IQ tests before they let you into their country. People have given a similar reason for why African Immigrants supposedly had a lot of PhDs.

I don't believe intellectual ability differs amongst race. Just exposure to opportunities. For example, my one of my friends struggled while in high school in Nigeria, especially in science subjects but in his University in the US he is a phenomenal student. His University just recently started admitting black students just after desegregation 40 years ago. However, despite the fact that he was an average student in Nigeria, he is one of the best mathematics students in his school (Which by the way is a very good school). My example is not for self-aggrandizement, but to point out that being aware of opportunities and taking them defines the successful student.

However, most Africans are not aware of opportunities available to them.

SEFAGO:

I beg to differ. American embassy don't take IQ tests before they let you into their country. People have given a similar reason for why African Immigrants supposedly had a lot of PhDs.

The fact is that a disproportionate part of the migrant population is drawn from the most educated and successful demographic of the country the migrants are vacating from. To the extent that these factors are linked to higher IQ, the migrants would have, on average, higher IQ than their home communities.

The average African immigrant does not represent his home community. Is the average Nigerian a graduate?

I don't believe intellectual ability differs amongst race. Just exposure to opportunities. For example, my one of my friends struggled while in high school in Nigeria, especially in science subjects but in his University in the US he is a phenomenal student. His University just recently started admitting black students just after desegregation 40 years ago. However, despite the fact that he was an average student in Nigeria, he is one of the best mathematics students in his school (Which by the way is a very good school). My example is not for self-aggrandizement, but to point out that being aware of opportunities and taking them defines the successful student.

However, most Africans are not aware of opportunities available to them.

That's anecdotal and it doesn't have much value. The fact is that Ivy League institituions have an over-representation of Indians/Chinese. If ability did not differ amongst races, unless we are talking of a clear case of racism, each race would more or less be equally represented.