mkmyers45: Crucifix,Frames with M.O.G Picture eg TB Joshua, sculpture etc

mkmyers45: Crucifix,Frames with M.O.G Picture eg TB Joshua, sculpture etc

Pastor Kun:

Why don't you tell me an image that is worshipped in churches as I am not aware of any.

Pastor AIO:
8 And the LORD said unto Moses: 'Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole; and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he seeth it, shall live.'
9 And Moses made a serpent of brass, and set it upon the pole; and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he looked unto the serpent of brass, he lived.


As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life

KamiLara:

He removed the high places, smashed the sacred stones and cut down the Asherah poles.
He broke into pieces the bronze snake Moses had made,
for up to that time the Israelites had been burning incense to it. (It was called Nehushtan.)
- 2 Kings 18:4 NIV


Regarding Numbers 21:8-9 referenced by Pastor AIO, Jesus made a mention of the symbol in John 3:14.

In John 3:14 Jesus conversation with Nicodemus, He mentioned that has Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so would He too be lifted up

He drew a parallel between His crucifixion and purpose with that of the bronze serpent on the pole.

The serpent, lifted up in the wilderness, had been God's chosen way to provide physical healing, for all afflicted by the serpents bites

Jesus, lifted up on the cross, in another type of wilderness is God's chosen way to provide spiritual healing for all afflicted by sin.

As the serpent gave physical life in the wilderness, Jesus gives spiritual life.

Faith was required to look at the serpent to be healed and saved from death

Faith also is required to look unto Jesus to receive eternal life and the salvation Jesus gives.

afam4eva:
Yes, every law in the old testament is outdated as we are no longer bound by rules but by grace.

Pastor Kun:

Non of the items you mentioned is an object of christian religious worship however to a certain extent I would agree with you that some of these items are Idolized and made an object of worship by ignorant/mis led believers.

Jenwitemi: Graven images of Jesus are a regular feature on most xtian churches altars, dude. That means they are focus of worship. Not to talk of the image of a naked, bearded white man as God in the minds of most christians put there by oyinbo man.

mkmyers45: What do you mean? What are the objects you are talking about?

Pastor Kun:

What I mean is that christians don't worship those objects the way pagans worship their idols. It's one thing to make an image, it's another thing to worship it.

Pastor Kun:

What I mean is that christians don't worship those objects the way pagans worship their idols. It's one thing to make an image, it's another thing to worship it.

Pastor Kun:

What I mean is that christians don't worship those objects the way pagans worship their idols. It's one thing to make an image, it's another thing to worship it.

KamiLara:

He removed the high places, smashed the sacred stones and cut down the Asherah poles.
He broke into pieces the bronze snake Moses had made,
for up to that time the Israelites had been burning incense to it. (It was called Nehushtan.)
- 2 Kings 18:4 NIV


Notice Hezekiah did what was right in the eyes of the LORD, just as his father David had done

In 2 Kings 18:4, He broke into pieces the bronze snake Moses had made

Regarding Numbers 21:8-9 and John 3:14 rightly referenced by Pastor AIO, Jesus made a mention of the symbol in John 3:14.

In John 3:14 Jesus conversation with Nicodemus, He mentioned that has Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so would He too be lifted up

He drew a parallel between His crucifixion and purpose with that of the bronze serpent on the pole.

The serpent, lifted up in the wilderness, had been God's chosen way to provide physical healing, for all afflicted by the serpents bites

Jesus, lifted up on the cross, in another type of wilderness is God's chosen way to provide spiritual healing for all afflicted by sin.

As the serpent gave physical life in the wilderness, Jesus gives spiritual life.

Faith was required to look at the serpent to be healed and saved from death

Faith also is required to look unto Jesus to receive eternal life and the salvation Jesus gives.

Iconoclasm[1] is the deliberate destruction of religious icons and other symbols or monuments, usually with religious or political motives. It is a frequent component of major political or religious changes. The term encompasses the more specific destruction of images of a ruler after his death or overthrow (damnatio memoriae), for example, following Akhenaten's death in Ancient Egypt.

In Judaism, King Hezekiah purged Solomon's Temple in Jerusalem and the Land of Israel of figures, including the Nehushtan, as recorded in the Second Book of Kings. His reforms were reversed in the reign of his son Manasseh.
A Midrash included in Genesis Rabba attributes a major act of iconoclasm to Abraham. Although not attested in the Biblical account of the Partriarch's life, it became an important aspect of Abraham's character in later Jewish tradition.
During the process of Christianisation under Constantine, groups destroyed the images and sculptures expressive of the Roman Empire's polytheist state religion.
The Eastern Orthodox Church had a period of Byzantine iconoclasm during the late medieval years, in which some groups destroyed the church's religious imagery.
During the rule of Girolamo Savonarola in Florence between 1494 and 1497, the Bonfire of the Vanities took place. Books, works of art, mirrors, cosmetics, sculptures, gaming tables, chess pieces, musical instruments, fine dresses and women’s hats were burnt in public view.
When Spanish and Portuguese Christians took control of Iberia, they built churches over mosques and destroyed other imagery of Islam.
Shahjahan during his rule destroyed hundreds of Hindu temples.
Muhammad of Ghor destoyed several hindu temples and relics and looted the temple wealth.
During the Protestant Reformation and the European wars of religion, known as the Beeldenstorm in the Netherlands, Protestants destroyed traditional (by then considered Catholic) imagery in churches, including paintings, sculptures and other representations. In some instances, Protestants destroyed the imagery of other Protestants.
Most of the moai of Easter Island were toppled during the 18th century in the iconoclasm of civil wars.
During the French Revolution, people widely destroyed religious and monarchical imagery.
During and after the Russian Revolution, widespread destruction of religious and secular imagery took place, as well as destruction of imagery related to the Czar.
During and after the Communist overthrow of the monarchy in China, as well as during the later Cultural Revolution, there was widespread destruction of religious and secular imagery in China, including in Tibet.
After the Second Vatican Council in the late twentieth century, some Roman Catholic parish churches discarded much of their traditional imagery, art, and architecture.[2]
During the 1956 Hungarian Revolution in Budapest, and through the fall of Communism in 1989, protesters often attacked and took down sculptures and images of Joseph Stalin, leader of the USSR.[3]
The Taliban destroyed two ancient statues of Buddha at Bamyan in Afghanistan.[4

Pastor AIO:

So was it Moses that did something that was not right in the eyes of the Lord?

Let me state where I am coming from clear clear so that I don't seem insidious.

Catholics are often attacked for their use of religious Icons.

They often protest that they do not worship these icons, but protestants will cut them no slack.

When Moses raised the Serpent was he telling the people of Israel to worship it or was he telling them to 'look unto it'.

What is the role of Iconism in religion?

How far can you take iconism and when does it become a hindrance rather than an aid to one's religious practice?

There have been several iconoclastic movements in Christianity, as there has been in Judaism,

yet most of them did not result in the splintering or disintegration of the Church.

Not until Luther and Calvin when they did not just destroy icons but they separated themselves from the church.

KamiLara:

@Pastor AIO

Moses did what was right in the eyes of the Lord by obeying & carrying out instructions

The latter bit - he told them to 'look unto it' for healing & be saved from the bite of serpents as per the instruction given to him by God

Hezekiah too did what was right in the eyes of the LORD, just as his father David had done

by tearing down an icon that had gone past its "used-by-date" and was perverted by the Israelites up to the point of worshiping & burning incense to it

The Israelites also had the audacity, to disguise or gloss the fact that it's a serpent they're burning incense to, by calling it "Nehushtan" (i.e. piece of brass)

Which of the icons (e.g. statues of Mary, Crucifix, relics etc) were instructions given to and/or for purpose(s) by God

". . . Catholics do not worship these icons . . . " you say. Give us a break or we might as well have a kit-kat

What's with bowing down statues or kissing relics then.

Pastor AIO:

I suppose it all depends on what one understands by the term worship.

And also whether Icons have a span of usefulness after which they must be destroyed.

If a woman can get healing from touching the hem of Jesus garment as she believed she would, would that be put to iconolatry.

What about those that used the Handkerchiefs belonging to Paul to heal themselves?

How far is that from the use of Relics by the catholics?

11God was performing extraordinary miracles by the hands of Paul,
12so that handkerchiefs or aprons were even carried from his body to the sick, and the diseases left them and the evil spirits went out. Acts 19

KamiLara:

@Pastor AIO

I dont give two monkeys about "thou Shalt Not Make Unto Thee Any Graven Image" And The Church (i.e. the posting title)

To each his own and their lot is likely a case of live and let die

You sire, brought up the serpent for reasons best known to you.

Pastor AIO:

Sorry to upset you, I brought up the bronze serpent because I, unlike you, am interested in the topic of this thread "thou Shalt Not Make Unto Thee Any Graven Image" And The Church

I felt that the mention of the bronze serpent would stimulate discussion in line with the subject of the thread and also stimulate discussion about the use of Icons in religion especially in Orthodox and Catholic christianity.

I was previously unaware of any such thing as 'healing in the wings' to refer to using objects that have come in contact with saints or Jesus for Healing. I presume that you are referring to the 4th chapter of Malachi:

1“For behold, the day is coming, burning like a furnace; and all the arrogant and every evildoer will be chaff; and the day that is coming will set them ablaze,” says the LORD of hosts, “so that it will leave them neither root nor branch.” 2“But for you who fear My name, the sun of righteousness will rise with[b] healing in its wings[/b]; and you will go forth and skip about like calves from the stall. 3“You will tread down the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day which I am preparing,” says the LORD of hosts.

I'll have to go away and look at this more closely.

Pastor AIO:

Furthermore someone just started a thread about God instructing Moses to make another graven image, this time of the Cherubim. I think the guy was a catholic. I was looking for his thread but couldn't find it anymore. Anyway the relevant verse are here:


18And you shall make two cherubim of gold; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat. 19Make one cherub on the one end, and one cherub on the other end. Of one piece with the mercy seat shall you make the cherubim on its two ends. 20The cherubim shall spread out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings, their faces one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubim be. 21And you shall put the mercy seat on the top of the ark, and in the ark you shall put the testimony that I shall give you. 22There I will meet with you, and from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubim that are on the ark of the testimony, I will speak with you about all that I will give you in commandment for the people of Israel.

Exodus 25

Pastor AIO:

I suppose it all depends on what one understands by the term worship.

And also whether Icons have a span of usefulness after which they must be destroyed.

If a woman can get healing from touching the hem of Jesus garment as she believed she would, would that be put to iconolatry.

What about those that used the Handkerchiefs belonging to Paul to heal themselves?

How far is that from the use of Relics by the catholics?

11God was performing extraordinary miracles by the hands of Paul, 12so that handkerchiefs or aprons were even carried from his body to the sick, and the diseases left them and the evil spirits went out. Acts 19

Pastor AIO:

Okay, I've lost interest now.

Optimisticgondy: If we are to agree the verse is from the old testament and shouldn't be taken serious, then emphasis should not be laid on tithes payment cos it's found in the old testament

chukwudi44:

@kamilara

Are disputing the fact that the cherubims and bronze serpents were graven images

[/quote]57. KamiLara: Quote Post

chukwudi44:

@kamilara

Are disputing the fact that the cherubims and bronze serpents were graven images


I understand your interest . . .

Let it first be known that the cherubims and bronze serpent are in a league of their own

and that the cherubims and bronze serpent had privilege statuses enjoyed or made available to a group of people at a particular period of time

I am not disputing the fact that the cherubims and bronze serpent were graven images

but questioning the truth whether they were

- bowed down to
- shown any reverence to by gesture of the body
- offered prostration, bending of knee, kissing of hand, lifting up of hands or eyes to as if there was divinity in them
- shown outward action expressing a spiritual esteem of them, as if there was divinity in them

in conjunction with the below verses, with particular reference to verse 5


4“You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.

5“You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me [quote]

buzugee: the catholic church collects tithes from countries not peons (humans )

Pastor Kun:

The catholic church actually first brought the doctrine of tithes into christianity and they practised it for centuries.

However in modern times with widespread use of the bible and enlightenment it became obvious it was a false doctrine so they decided to retract and preach it as voluntary.

However the catholic church being the oldest and richest institution in the world has amassed wealth over the centuries which they continue to re-invest. The catholic church is the largest shareholder in a good number of large corporations in America and around the world they made good money from tithes and other scams like 'sale of indulgence' in the past but today they have moved ahead.

They are so huge now that tithe money would seem like peanuts to them.

Jenwitemi: Graven images of Jesus are a regular feature on most xtian churches altars, dude. That means they are focus of worship. Not to talk of the image of a naked, bearded white man as God in the minds of most christians put there by oyinbo man.

ijawkid:

Why mÀke d molten images. In d 1st place??


U guys bow down to d image.....

They serve as talismans to d users don't they?

Like lucky charms or what have u.........

If I bow down to mary's image or d cross and say d hail mary's,what have I done??

KamiLara:

@Pastor AIO

I dont give two monkeys about "thou Shalt Not Make Unto Thee Any Graven Image" And The Church (i.e. the posting title)

To each his own and their lot is likely a case of live and let die

You sire, brought up the serpent for reasons best known to you.

The fact of the matter is that God asked that the serpent be made to be looked upon & be saved from a snake bite death for that period in the wilderness

God didnt asked that the serpent be made for burning incenses to as was later practiced by the Israelites

so this is why the breaking up of the bronze serpent into pieces was made noteworthy along with a commendation

The Israelites made the bronze serpent an idol and were burning incense to it.

That is the reality. Give it a rest.

PS: The woman that got healing from touching the hem of Jesus garment? you mentioned
That's a different matter altogether

She knew her bible that well that she got the revelation about "healing in the wings" from Malachi
She put her faith to test, and behold she was made whole