@kazey, arent you confusing the joftech now?

@joftech, let me tell you something. i really respect your point of view and the way you think. I understand exactly what you are talking about. Reading computer science in uni was a terrible experience - 70s curriculum etc. Extremely boring lecturers, etc. Zero room for innovation and imagination.

I have also decided never to pursue Masters or PHD in Naija. Either one of the best schools in the world like Trinity College, MIT, Carltech or none. Infact, i'm not sure if i even want to go to higher institution anywhere!

You know most pple posting here have a university degree (including me) so they can't really see things from your perspective. You have something very special probably even bigger than Gates', hold on tight to it, abeg.

I hope i am not. I said it shouldnt be encouraged in my previous post. But that does not infer that I believe in it soo much. That was applicable to people not in my paradigm, the young entreprenuer wannabes etc. What i was saying is, that they shouldnt take Bill Gates or even Henry Ford as role models, in relations to getting educated vs exploring the possibilities of making it big.

I hope you understand my blabberings now.

@kazey, i guess.

timmy:
guess my main challege as been management of myself and money, and spend it as it comes been that am alone a make my decision alnoe and all the alone stuffs. But im getting better try to listen to some advice and some tv shows as help any way, but im still looking for a more financialy minded partner may be that ll put me in check

precisel. i was fortunate to listen to some advice before i went solo.  i have a partner and he has been able to keep me in check to a large extent concerning decisions and finances.  i am particularly not comfortable being the only one in charge.  I believe in sharing the risks and sharing the profits.  It is a proven approach..

@ jimmy.

When i first began my voyage into entrepreneur-hood, i used to be scared that i am all alone. As in nobody had my type of mindset, but with time, I discovered there are a lot of guys out there worse than me, who are willing to collude in partnerships, and are well versed in relation to what i always wanted.

The thing is about mixing with the right people. Mixing with people who don't just talk, but you see them active, they are on the pathway to achieving their dreams, they have a planned mission, and they are adhering to it to the later. And fortunately, you see them around you daily. Selling Reload cards, trying to open a mini shop, writing business plans, and trying to defend it etc.

Those kind of people are those that are qualified. You would be surprised at the kind of knowledge and expertise they posses, try talking to one, about your dreams, and you would get what I mean. Anyways all the best in your aspirations, don't give up.

As I read this thread, I can't help thinking "these are the kind of people we need in this country". People who are looking for ways forward instead of sitting down and yabbing President Obasanjo!

I think you guys need to read some books! get this book Napoleon Hill- Laws of Success, Robert kiyoshaki - Rich dad Poor Dad and finally, Who moved my cheese.

There is nothing wrong with/without eductaion. It is what you do with your life that counts! As one guy said, Pastor Olumide emmanuel( to be precise) - you could either waste, spend or invest your life. One thing i Know is that education helps you to maximise opportunities!

@Bizkid welcome on board. I hope you will give more insights to some of the people here. At least i know you are a veteran[i](judging from your ID) [/i] on this topic.

Bizkid:

I think you guys need to read some books! get this book Napoleon Hill- Laws of Success, Robert Kiyosaki - Rich dad Poor Dad and finally, Who moved my cheese.

I do agree. The books by Robert Kiyosaki and Napoleon Hill can be real mind openers.
One of the things Kiyosaki discusses is the context [/i]in which you operate.

I personally am coming out of a family of teachers. they draw a government salary and have never been introduced to the uglier sides of the economic theatre (this is not Nigeria, so they do receive their salaries ). They think as employees and everything in their actions shows that they live in an[i] employee context. So, as a youngster, I was never introduced to the entrepreneurial spirit and never even thought that I could start up something myself.

When I started working in one of first Internet companies (presence provider as they were called in these days) in Belgium (we're talking 1995 here), I started off as an employee. I helped the company I worked for to get to a situation of operational break even within 2 years (we grew from 3 employees to 26 during that time) - I was Operations Manager at that time and in charge of everything that wasn't sales or deep-technical stuff (mainly maintenace of connectivity and servers). Unfortunately, the mother company was expecting profit much quicker and they sold off the company to one of the main publishers in Belgium.

At that time I moved to the pioneering Internet company in Belgium and was the assistant Operations Managers in charge of production planning and coaching of the Project Managers.

I saw a lot of business opportunities being developed, but never even considered jumping in myself. Only recently, after meeting a lot of people with an entrepreneurial background, did it dawn on me that I had missed out on a lot of opportunities and I started to educate myself.

I'm currently busy developing a business plan and will start my ventures shortly. I'll keep you in the loop

Bizkid:

There is nothing wrong with/without education. It is what you do with your life that counts! As one guy said, Pastor Olumide emmanuel( to be precise) - you could either waste, spend or invest your life. One thing i Know is that education helps you to maximise opportunities!

Not only that, but do remember that the capital needs to start up a successful business are greatly reduced with the possibilities the internet offers. Nigerians have the opportunity to trade with the rest of the word without working through intermediaries against minimal cost. You that are on the forefront of the internet revolution in Nigeria can develop opportunities beyond what most would even think possible.

Think outside the box: distribution, logistics, world wide markets: what do you have that the world is interested in or more importantly could be interested in?

Not only that, but do remember that the capital needs to start up a successful business are greatly reduced with the possibilities the internet offers.

This is not true, do your research on setting up a business online. Read on e-commerce related subjects.

kazey:

This is not true, do your research on setting up a business online. Read on e-commerce related subjects.

I tend to disagree. And I have read on e-commerce related subjects. I have actually been involved in several of them.

Btw, I never meant to say that you do not need any capital, only that for similar types of markets it is much more expensive in a brick-and-mortar type of business

I love the web!

Guys, starting (a) business in Nigeria is same as starting anywhere else. Making it can actually be easier if you think of succeeding and not just rant away at all the perceived problems. Our system is so 18th century that they are opportunities anyway you look or turn. The books will sharpen your ability to identify the opportunities but actually turning the opportunities to cash (flow) is the tricky hard bit!

For the person who is bypassing a degree education, please if you can, go get a degree, in any subject or any approved school. You wont believe what you will go thru in live later if you don't get one now. Its worth it I beg you.

We can split all the definitions in the world but you either make it now or you don't, if you don't, you can always try again (if you r still alive that is)

What to watch out for, is confusing what one wants to do in love with what one would love to do, you need to have the mindset of a  'businessman/entrepreneur/whatever' to set up a business, IMO, its a different ball game from drawing a paycheck every week/month or whatever.

A lot of folks complain about being ripped off, my experience -YMMV- is that people set themselves up for a rip off. PAY for services, pay a lawyer to do legal work, pay an accountant to do accounting work or advise, pay a bank to transfer money - free thing de purge should be a starting persons mantra.

What of you can pay you say, what about your unemployed friends from school (another reason to go to college). The layers can draft stuff for you for later payment, ibid accountants and others.

Oh,, and don't think outside the box

Well honestly you don't want me to start on the issue of starting a business online. Besides you "claimed" you are involved in one, I really doubt so.

If you are in Nigeria let me do a quick calculation on what you would be incurring setting up an online business.

Internet:
Assuming you have a 24/7 connection at home, thats 15k a month, your profit better be more than that.
Assuming you use the internet cafe to take orders, in the scenario of sales, and setting up, I wonder what particular you would
sell.

Web Hosting? ok assuming webhosting, you take the orders and go to your bank to check, Internet cafe bills, transportation cost, lets say approx 20k a month. Your web hosting business better be very profitable.

Assuming you sell stuff, that means they must be cheaper or unique products, which you get from overseas, that means you have to pay via credit card, or lets say you use wire, I am sure you should be familiar with bank charges.

Now back to phone, phone bills, calling clients etc....

Back to assuming your business is from home, minus the cost of the internet connection, you need a computer? you need a generator? you need a good room? That comes cheap?

ok now i have not gone into the cost and capital needed for the web front to be standard, as in you would need a web designer to design a standard website, then also you would need a web hosting company to host it. you would need an SSL certificate if you are processing credit card payments, you would need to pay a gateway monthly.

And don't forget your product is alternative, means it must be CHEAP.


And i have even forgotten the publicity and marketing part, how would people know you exist? search engines only? hehehe most Nigerians would see you only in the dailies, that doesnt come cheap. lets say 20k per ad?

Think again my friend, it doesnt come cheaper

@ Kazey,

Hi,

I certainly don't want this to turn into a pissing contest (and I'm sure you don't want that either ). Please read exactly what I wrote. Nowhere did I say that there are no costs involved, nor that it is easy or that you are guaranteed success. The only thing that I said is that the costs of doing business over the internet are greatly reduced compared to similar ventures off line.
It is possible to reach markets beyond your place of residence, if you offer something of value (and I know for certain that there are enough things Nigeria offers that a world market may be interested in).
Now look at the possibilities of someone residing in Nigeria to reach world markets without the internet. the costs involved would be substantially higher wouldn't you agree.

Now, I'm not in Nigeria and therefore I did not have a good view on baseline operating costs, which seem to be substantially higher than what we have in Belgium (e.g. I have a 24/7 connection at 10Mbps down/ 512Kbps up @ 50€/month, including 50MB webspace & unlimited email-addresses - which I currently don't use). Obviously this is not for everyone.

The biggest problem I see, if you want to sell on line would be transaction clearing, shipping and payments (credit cards / paypall?) for which it would be necessary to have an overseas partner. And there come the money transfer costs on top of that. But this is not insurmountable, if you offer something worthwile and you can differentiate yourself in the market

Now back to your product or service: it only needs to be cheap (relatively, I would rather use the term 'offer value' than 'cheap') for your target market. Key is trust and here you need to make a long term investment - you probably won't have quick returns.

The main source I see of our failed communication on the subject is that you seem to be thinking about an internal Nigerian marketplace, while I'm thinking about Nigerians offering goods and/or services to a worldwide market.

Marketing wise, if you have a very specific target market, focus on that using message boards, mailing lists and focus on word of mouth communication and build brand trust. Takes longer, but is much more effective in the long run (good reference work: The Cluetrain Manifesto: http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0738204315/qid=1127892542/sr=8-3/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i3_xgl/202-1739926-3627808)

Back to your opener, I never "claimed" to be involved in an on line business. I managed the startup process of several on line businesses, while working for a presence provider (e.g., we got the first Belgian jobboard up: http://www.jobscareer.be/ ).
I used to work for 2 presence providers in Belgium, Allmansland (which no longer exists) and The Reference (http://www.reference.be/) I actually have not been involved in the sector the last 4 years.

Now i can't stop laughing. Nigerian citizens located in Nigeria, having an online mall to sell things to people overseas? Well they better don't use, the Products are from Nigeria label,

And honestly I would have to rest my case. I wonder which message boards, or where the person would even get the mailing list (such channel might be considered spam), especially from a Nigerian !!, another scam in disguise. Anywayz I better rest my case. People overseas buying things from Nigerians using credit card. Brother It just wouldnt happen. Maybe after this generation . Except it is pay after product delivery shop, that might do the magic, who knows

kazey:

Now i can't stop laughing. Nigerians having an online mall to sell things to people overseas? Well they better don't use, the Products are from Nigeria label,

And honestly I would have to rest my case. I wonder which message boards, or where you would even get the mailing list (which might be considered) spam. Anywayz I better rest my case. People buying things from Nigerians using credit card. Brother It just wouldnt happen. Maybe after this generation . who knows

Well,

In that case I better rest my case as well. If you won't even consider the posibilities. Of course you don't spam message boards, mailing lists or usenet. That's exactly what you would do if you want to ruin your brand name. Spam has very specific characteristics that are very different from targeted promotion.

Obviously, the only possible trans-border e-commerce activities are 'shopping malls', where 419ers try to scam foreigners into buying inferior products? Is that what you're implying?

Also, try to read what I wrote before jumping to conclusions. I did introduce the concept of working with overseas partners, didn't I.

kazey:

[SNIP]
Except it is pay after product delivery shop, that might do the magic, who knows

Now you're (sort of) catching my drift. E.g. working with an overseas llc, that handles the Credit card payments (which are then insured).

I wouldn't mind carrying this on on PM if you're interested. I just think you read things between the lines that aren't there

Nigerians should try to create an e-commerce market right here in Nigeria. With the use of Valucard and e-transact and even bank payments, we can develop our own bubbling e-commerce system here. China, India and some other countries have develop their own e-market.

The experience and acceptance gained by sellers and buyers can later be adapted to international e-commerce.

Nigeria has a bad reputation online. No body in his/her right sense will authorize any Nigrerian to deduct money from their credit card.

The possibility of a big online market in Nigeria is very sound  when you consider the huge population we have got, the only drawback to e-commerce break in Nigeria is/are the lack of infrastrutures that can facilitate smooth runnnings of e-commerce oprations.

I hope the Federal Government will pull through their plan of introducing a Nigeria based credit card.

joftech:

Nigerians should try to create an e-commerce market right here in Nigeria. With the use of Valucard and e-transact and even bank payments, we can develop our own bubbling e-commerce system here. China, India and some other countries have develop their own e-market.

I don't disagree. But that doesn't mean that you need to develop an internal market before you go international.
You also need to look at the purchasing power of your target market and I really wonder if Nigeria currently can offer a critical mass for most on line ventures

joftech:

The experience and acceptance gained by sellers and buyers can later be adapted to international e-commerce.

I don't really see how experience from one market immediately translates to another. Or maybe I'm misreading you?

joftech:

Nigeria has a bad reputation online. No body in his/her right sense will authorize any Nigrerian to deduct money from their credit card.

That's why currently, you need to work with foreign partners.

joftech:

The possibility of a big online market in Nigeria is very sound when you consider the huge population we have got, the only drawback to e-commerce break in Nigeria is/are the lack of infrastrutures that can facilitate smooth runnnings of e-commerce oprations.

I hope the Federal Government will pull through their plan of introducing a Nigeria based credit card.

There's a lot of if's here. I truly hope this materializes, but I wouldn't bank any money on this just yet

Now i can't stop laughing. Nigerian citizens located in Nigeria, having an on-line mall to sell things to people overseas? Well they better don't use, the Products are from Nigeria label, 

What is causing the laughter? People are already buying Nigerian services online with cc already.

If you position your services/goods pproperly you'll get takers.

Selling on the web does not only have to be physical goods. You can sell services as well.

I don't buy the concept of stuff having to be cheaper to sell well, quality and use value counts as well. One lesson from the dot.com meltdown is that selling cheap to generate volume does not always bring (a) profit in the future.

inyang:

What is causing the laughter? People are already buying Nigerian services online with cc already.

Examples please........... That would be really appreciated

inyang:

One lesson from the dot.com meltdown is that selling cheap to generate volume does not always bring (a) profit in the future.

Jeff Benzos wouldnt agree to that, and I neither. Just a quote from one of my blog post on a relative topic.

A canonical “dot-com” company’s business model relies on network effects to justify losing money to build market share, or even mind share, through giving their product away in the hope that they could eventually charge for it. (It’s worth noting that Amazon.com and other successful survivors of the era (*.com crash) proved this strategy sound in the long term.)

And by the way if I must rephrase what i said before, on "pay after delivery shop", I was just being sarcastic there. Hello!!! No Nigerian would setup such a shop, whereby you pay after he delivers his goods. If you intend to use escrow services, there are too expensive for just single items, and besides that would be too loopy. Common guys, you should know better.

The idea of foreign partners? common it only works for a few, and depends on the services you want to provide. Nigerians are too sleek to be trusted. It would be a risk, which a lot of people would think twice before doing that. I for one use such concept, and I do classify myself very lucky in getting the right guys. How many right guys are out there?

eff Benzos wouldnt agree to that, and I either. Just a quote from one of my blog post on a relative topic.

Quote
A canonical “dot-com” company’s business model relies on network effects to justify losing money to build market share, or even mind share, through giving their product away in the hope that they could eventually charge for it. (It’s worth noting that Amazon.com and other successful survivors of the era (*.com crash) proved this strategy sound in the long term.)

Hmmm, at the risk of splitting hairs, amazon.com did not prove that selling cheap in volume will generate future profits. Incidentally, I have gone thru two books on Bezos and amazon.com.

I work for a company where we get almost all our payments after delivering goods/services and we do a lot of business in Nigeria.  Of course we get people/organisations that do not pay up!

Nigerians are too sleek to be trusted

Really, so why (at least from the impression you give in your post) are you working with Nigerians then? Blanket condemnation is too harsh, don't you think?
I talk with some bankers who give  lame excuses why they don't give  unsecured loans to small/medium businesses in Nigeria. I asked them for specific reasons and what they had to say was default and bad loans rate is high in Nigeria. I then asked for the actual rate in Nigeria as against say Brazil, the US or UK. Nobody cares to check, what they work with is that the 'rate is high'

Lol read a lot of Benzo's related books? Are you sure? Because I really do not want to start throwing down real facts from multiple sources, and too lazy to do that now.


inyang? Your company sells goods to companies or individual clients overseas, and get paid after delivery. Internatiaonal Supplier services I suppose. Even dropshippers expect you to pay before they deliver :p. Are you very sure that there is nothing like "Letter of Credit" or any form of security? And you did mention that some companies do not pay, well bad debts happens and thus i suppose that applies to try to authenticate your first statement.

Your company is overseas i suppose, because you said you do a lot of businesses in Nigeria. Are you sure that your company gets no gurantee at all, they just supply like that? Are you sure? Where is your company? What do you supply? and May I get supplies too, because I would really love such deals . Even local supplies do need gurantee, my friend.

Yes I work with Nigerians, and I still stand by that statement, Nigerians are too sleek to be trusted and I add the sentence. There are right guys arround too, and I for one am lucky, but how many right guys are out there?

Impression? hmm lolz. Well I am speaking from experience here.

Banks all over the world, not only in Nigeria, would need some good evidence to know what they are borrowing out would not be a bad debt, and such bringing in such context in this situation does not apply at all. Comparing Nigerian market to offshore market is a bit too far stretched don't you think ?

when you have the facts, am here

i did not say anything about not receiving guarantees. what you said specifically was pay after delivery, i was rebutting that. the issue of guarantee is embedded in most business transactions.

i brought the bank example because there too many people out there making nigeria a special case. especially nigerians who love nothing more than spending time showing/proving how we are so different from other countries, i dont buy that rap.

People want to make it quick (mostly without sacrifies).
But i believe there is  a big oppurtunity in this country, if only one reach out for it.
What i see in nigerians' is that, they like the comfort zone (remained employed without taking risk).
I was only employed for just six month and thought of developing mine(not in same industry though) because its never in my dream to be an employee (unavailable job).
I have a started on  my own with the little knowledge i have and planing to develop it to world-class.

E go better..

E go better.

There's nothing like calling all the shots yourself. You have freedom (too much freedom can be problem at times though)

when you start all alone at times there's always the doubting part of you that will wonder if you will ever make it on your own, this should not be seen as a distraction it should be seen as a spur to greater exploits and decisive decision on your part.

The ability to see a bigger you in the making can get you to the world class slot.

Think Big, Start small.

yeah the believe is there. There is nothing like shaking faith in me. Started alone but seeing some friend wishing to join in the race. Well as a subordinate though.

I said this before and would always repeat, not everybody can be self-employed nor even a businessman. We must have every part of the quadrant to balance everything. If you are a business man who would be your employee? That is if every person chooses to set-up his or her own business based on what you belief as the best way out of the mess? yet you condemn those that choose to go for the employee quadrant.

What i see in nigerians' is that, they like the comfort zone (remained employed without taking risk).

And what is wrong with the comfort zone?, I am sure most of us here are fed from the comfort zone.

I really don't understand why a lot of people out there, think anybody working for another person, must be an idiot, for making such a decision. I guess most have being reading too much Kiyosaki's book, I suppose. Kiyosaki, only deserves the credit for paradigm change not condeming the employees. Besides he is full of crap, I have read all his books.

Hmm true talk. I dont mean every1 should go for it but if enough have the mind-set, things we look better.

kazey:

[SNIP]
I really don't understand why a lot of people out there, think anybody working for another person, must be an idiot, for making such a decision. I guess most have being reading too much Kiyosaki's book, I suppose. Kiyosaki, only deserves the credit for paradigm change not condeming the employees. Besides he is full of crap, I have read all his books.

I certainly haven't read that in the posts here, but concerning your postion on Kiyosaki, do you care to make an argument on why he is full of crap? Obviously, he is very US-centric, an not everything he proposes would work in another cultural context, but apart from that, I cannot see why he would be 'full of crap'

He certainly doesn't make the argument that everybody can - and should - start up his own business

Just two things, his real estate theories and stock theories, wouldnt even work the way he said it would, even in the USA.

Dont tell me his theories on Option calls and puts, would work in a real stock market. Or his buying a lot of estate houses is true? Kiyosaki made his money from the books and the Cashflow game, in short the Rich Dad company, not from the ventures he claimed to be involved in. Thats why I said he was full of crap.

kazey:

Just two things, his real estate theories and stock theories, wouldnt even work the way he said it would, even in the USA.

I don't really know what you would call theories regarding real estate, but his postion that it is advisable to buy real estate for cash flow instead of capital gains is very doable actually, even with little money down. I actually did that when I moved to my new house: refinanced the old one to make it cash flow positive after taxes, maintenance, etc.

I can imagine that doing something like that in the US is even easier, as there are more credit facilities and the taxation on real estate is more profitable than e.g. in Belgium (20% on top of the purchase price goes to the title office, immediately, no tax credits except for mortage repayments).

kazey:

Dont tell me his theories on Option calls and puts, would work in a real stock market.

I don't know enough about that to have an informed opinion. I which book does he really develop a theory regarding option calls and puts as I could not find anything remotely similar to a theory in his 'Rich Dad's Guide to Investing'. I only found a very brief explanation of what Option calls and puts were, certainly nothing readily applicable.

That's actually the main argument I would have against his books: very little concrete, usable information but mostly focussing on the mental context of wealth acquisition.

kazey:

Or his buying a lot of estate houses is true? Kiyosaki made his money from the books and the Cashflow game, in short the Rich Dad company, not from the ventures he claimed to be involved in. Thats why I said he was full of crap.

I really don't have any information on whether 'walks the walk' as well. If you could give me sources that debunk his stories, I would be very interested though

Hmm I really don't want to start picking on what you said one by one but since you ask for something to read. please visit.

http://www.johntreed.com/Kiyosaki.html

it should be very educative i think