Image123:
you didn't answer my first question at all frosbel. i asked if sinners would be tortured AT ALL in God's judgement, not if they will be tortured forever. And for how long will the torture last or how long would you consider godly torture.

on the second question, are you saying it is justice for anyone to live for billions of years in God's kingdom after living godly for just one month on earth, yet injustice for anyone to be punished for a billions of years after living in earth ungodly for about 40years? isn't that double standards?

it was St.Augustine ( Catholic ) who gave the church its standard way of thinking about hell, a way which would become dominant for the next millennium and a half.

Specifically he taught us to view hell as a condition of endless torment of conscious persons in body and soul. In a major section of The City of God (book 21), he argues at length against all objections to this grim idea and defends his view vigorously that God plans to torture the wicked both mentally and physically forever. To get a feeling for his orientation, one should consider his argument in answer to one objection:

how could a resurrected person burn physically and suffer psychologically forever without being materially consumed or ever losing consciousness? How could they suffer the same kind of burns one would sustain on earth from contact with raging flames and not be consumed by them? To explain this marvel Augustine explains that God has the power to do such things which transcend ordinary nature.

Excerpt from The Destruction of the Finally Impenitent by CLARK H. PINNOCK B.A., Ph.D.McMaster Divinity College,Hamilton, Ontario, Canada

Unfortunately Augustine is not alone in thinking this way but ratherspeaks for orthodoxy. The Protestant J. Edwards is every bit as rigorousin his doctrine of hell, as is well known. His sermon “Sinners in the Handsof an Angry God” is (in)famous for the picture of God dangling sinnersover the flames like a loathsome spider. J. Gerstner, an Edwards scholar,summarizes Edwards’ view in this way:

Hell is a spiritual and material furnace of fire where its victims are exquisitely tortured in their minds and in their bodies eternally, according
to their various capacities, by God, the devils, and damned humans including themselves, in their memories and consciences as well as in theirraging, unsatisfied lusts, from which place of death God’s saving grace,mercy, and pity are gone forever, never for a moment to return.


Not only is it God’s pleasure so to torture the wicked everlastingly, but it will be the happiness of the saints to see and know this is being faithfully done. It would not be unfair to picture the traditional doctrine in this way:just as one can imagine certain people watching a cat trapped in a microwave oven squirming in agony and taking delight in it, so the saints in heaven will, according to Edwards, experience the torments of the damned with pleasure and satisfaction.

Excerpt from The Destruction of the Finally Impenitent by CLARK H. PINNOCK B.A., Ph.D.McMaster Divinity College,Hamilton, Ontario, Canada

buzugee: FROSBEL VS GOSHEN. this here is about to be a thrilla in manilla * grabs popcorn *

yall both come on with it now. i want to see spiritual pugilism. textual uppercuts and precept upon precept body-slams. i need to see limbs severed and decapitation with the two-edged sword, the word, that is. these are your weapons gentlemen

hebrews 4 vs 12 For the word of God is alive and powerful. It is sharper than the sharpest two-edged sword, cutting between soul and spirit, between joint and marrow

jeremiah 23 vs 29 Is not my word like a fire? says the LORD; and like a hammer that breaks the rock in pieces

frosbel:




Now we can all see where this false doctrine started !

Tradition is not TRUTH, only Scripture is.

Image123: Two questions based on your premise for belief, frosbel
1. Will sinners be tortured at all in the lake of fire, if yes, for how long do you consider a torture of sinners as fair?
2. Does any believer deserve eternal life, is it just ,of God for me to live as a child of God for six months, die and then live for billions of years eternally in God's kingdom?

frosbel:

But not to forget that it is not a nice death , it is second death in the Lake of Fire and Brimstone.

Fire purifies, so the devil and sinners based on the degree of their wickedness will be destroyed in the lake of fire which is the second death.

After this , the earth and heaven will renewed and the righteous will dwell in it forever.

There , there will be no more death , sorrow, crying or pain.

"He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away." - Revelation 21:4

Have you considered that the tears God will wipe away from their eyes will be because they see their relatives and friends forever destroyed but support GOD because of his LOVE , Justice and Righteousness.

Please let us warn everyone we know , so that they will not partake of the second death.

"But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars--their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death." - Revelation 21:8

ijawkid:

Lol....

Abeg make we share ur pop corn......lol

On who's side are u??

Me na frosbel side I dey o....

I'v always supported his new perspective or stand on this immortality of d soul thing and hell fire tale....

brainpulse:

Then where will the devil go? Or will he also die for life in the lake of fire?

Mr. Man you have successfully twisted the bible with your emotions and thought of what you believe God can't do. What is then the reason of the first death when you can die and that is all, when you blief the second death means you die, your soul dies and you are no more.

I do not believe in torture but would rather use the word punishment, torture connotes punishment for the sake of it, mostly out of a vindictive mind, but punishment is synonymous with justice.

Anyone who believes in Jesus Christ , his work of the Cross and his sacrifice, his defeat of death , repentance from sins , will put on immortality forever and ever.

Their deserving immortality , living for zillions of years is not based on when and for how long they got saved , it is based on our Lord Christ defeating death and the grave forever and ever , which means , we will never die.

But there will be different rewards, some will have more crowns than others

first of all the lake of fire means second DEATH..DEATH without the hope of living again. The people of Noah's day and Lot's day are not burning eternally, they were destroyed by God himself meaning no hope of living again. I mean if Adam and Eve were not sentenced to burn forever, which imperfect human deserves it?

Secondly nobody truly deserves eternal life, sin condemed all of us to death..it is a gift from God for his faithful servants. Romans 6: 23 explains this.

[quote author=Image123]
trying to be politically correct. The Bible uses the word 'torment'. Hell is a place of torment and torture, it's not a place for mild correction.
Mat 8:29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?

Even the devils know what hell fire's going to be like.
Luke 16:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
Rev 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night forever and ever

It's at the feet of rabbi frosbel that we learn that Jesus was not forsaken on the cross, it is at his feet that we learn that there is no torment/torture in hell fire, it is at his feet that we see that "forever and ever" does not mean "forever and ever". Be very careful, frosbel, very careful with these your much learning.

It is this same basis of rejecting God that puts people in hell fire forever and ever, not really their amount of sins.

2Th 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

It's worthy to note that the only places where the great happy cry of ALLELUIA is recorded in scriptures, is the jubilant and exultant shouts for judgement, for hell. That's reality.

Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

The verse says they are set forth as AN EXAMPLE, and they are sufferING not that they sufferED. Just like the devils are kept in chains until the judgement day. They are not yet in the real hell fire, but they are not free either. They are suffering, and would ALL be brought up on judgement day. Jesus said some of them would have a better judgement than the people in Jesus'days, so they are not gone forever. They are with Mr. Death and Mr. Hell as it were, and i would say that's not a very comfortable company to chill with.
Luke 10:12 But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

you should also note the part that says Mr death is going to be punished, so that there will be NO MORE DEATH.

The verse you quoted is relative , because in Mark 1:24 the word torment is substituted for destroy as below :

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
"Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art, the Holy One of God." - Mark 1:24

Besides you have totally ignored the verse which mentions the total destruction of the devil, such as :

"So I made a fire come out from you,
and it consumed you,
and I reduced you to ashes on the ground
in the sight of all who were watching.
19All the nations who knew you
are appalled at you;
you have come to a horrible end
and will be no more.’” - Ezekiel 28:18b - 19

Is the phrase 'you will be no more' , not clear enough , why are you replacing scripture with tradition. Again , tell me where the apostles preached about hell!!! Nowhere.

You are hanging on to tradition , your choice !

We have overflogged this verse, first of all hell here is for hades, the grave.

Please refer to my post on Lazarus and the rich man, quite funny that you have taken 1 out of a number of parables in one chapter and turned it into a true story.

What is the rich man's name , till today no answer.

1.There will be no more night in the new world, only day. And if you suggest that sinners will be tormented in outer darkness, there is no day there, only darkness , so this argument does not hold.

2. To suggest that Jesus Christ and the angels have nothing better to do than to spend eternity watching the torment of the wicked is quite laughable.So in your opinion Jesus Christ who dwells in unapproachable light will be watching those in darkness ( not sure how this will work )forever and ever, taking pleasure in their torment , indeed a torment that will continue for endless ages , and do so with glee, right ? Wrong !

3. The wicked will be punished according to their deeds period.


I am not sure what you make of this bible scripture, let us see how you join your catholic brethren to twist these verses :

"Then they will go forth and look On the corpses of the men Who have transgressed against Me. For their worm will not die And their fire will not be quenched; And they will be an abhorrence to all mankind." - Isaiah 66:24


Let's see you put a spin on this one.

[quote author=Image123]
you are clutching at straws. It's not the same event as you are insinuating. The Matthew event i quoted was in the country of the Gergesenes, the Mark passage was in the synagogue. It's not the same persons or devils.


Are you kidding me, total destruction of the devil? Every good bible student knows that the passage you are bringing up is AT LEAST dualistic in meaning. There is a certain king of tyre been also referred to, who is a man.
Ezekiel 28:2 Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:
Is the devil a man? Not to occupy space here, i'd advice you read the whole chapter at least, and understand it better.

Ezekiel 28:10 Thou shalt die the deaths of the uncircumcised by the hand of strangers: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD.
That aside though, here is the passage you tried to quote

Eze 28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffic; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
Eze 28:19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.
Note the phrase "upon the earth". One may be no more ON THE EARTH but be in judgement on the other side. That someone perishes on the earth, like the disciples thought they would, does not mean that is the end of everything. There is a great day of judgement coming.

Hell where? The verses i posted do not mention hell, or hades, or graves. i wonder why you are side-stepping and distracting us with your theories on the rich man. Who mentioned parables and true stories? i never had that in mind to discuss. here are the verses again.
Luke 16:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

Rev 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

Hell fire is not in the new world, neither is Heaven in the new world. Heaven and Hell fire have been prepared long before the 'new world'. Pay attention to your chronology.

when you quote two bible passages and call them laughable, i must say that you have problems as a christian. Here they are again, you are freewilled to make what you want of them.
Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night forever and ever

if you do not understand specific bible passages, do your diligence to ask with some humility. Isaiah 66 is a chapter major set in the time of the 1000years reign of Christ on earth. The order is Christ's second coming, then 1000years reign, then Final judgement. Isaiah 66 happens before final judgement. That's the summary. Now the brief explanation.

Jesus was separated from the Father on the Cross, God did not forsake him , do you know what the word forsake means, to abandon , to leave in state of hopelessness. Nay , this is far from the truth.

"because you will not abandon me to the grave, nor will you let your Holy One see decay." - Acts 2:27

God never abandoned his son Sir, he was doing a wonderful work for you and for me.

What do you classify as rejecting GOD, rejecting everlasting HELL ? Which is a doctrine of demons ?

Nay again Sir, rejecting God is walking in unbelief and SIN and rejecting Christ's sacrifice.

Sodom and Gomorrah were burnt with eternal fire, right ?

Question, are they still burning today, Nope. But the destruction was total and irreversible and the place today is uninhabitable as it was thousands of years ago.

1. Devils are not yet cast into your so called HELL ,but Humans Beings are

2. HELL exists today , but the bible says HELL is a future event

3. The eternal fire of SODOM has died out thousands of years ago

4. You are not reading the bible from the old testament to the new in context, you are holding on to one parable to build an entire doctrine which is nowhere else supported in the bible

5. You misrepresent God's character by presenting him as a sadist to your audience, so instead of peaching Repent or Perish, you are propagating the middle dark age doctrine of the catholic church , which is repent or be tormented forever and ever.

6. Many times forever is used in the bible to explain certain events which have all happened and are now history

7. The wicked are being punished before their judgement , does this make sense

Death and Hades will be destroyed , there will be no more death or evil, anywhere in God's new world.

Fr0sbel: When a friend or loved one dies, we grieve. If that person was a faithful Christian, we find comfort in the promise of the gospel: resurrection and eternal life. If, on the other hand, the deceased did not know the Lord Jesus Christ in trusting obedience, we have more cause for sorrow and concern about his eternal fate.

An almost indescribable heaviness must be in the minds and hearts of those who believe that their loved ones who didn’t know the Lord are suffering the torments of eternal hellfire.

Is there any comfort for the surviving spouse, parent, child, or friend who is taught that the one whom they held dear in life already endures the misery and pain of the infernal regions, and that without end?

If the human heart is repulsed by such a gloomy and cruel thought, how much more removed must it be from the mind of a gracious and loving God.

In spite of the utter incongruity of it, many Christians believe that a person who dies without Jesus Christ goes to hell at the moment of death to suffer eternally in the fire prepared for the Devil and his angels. This drastic doctrine may offer incentive for a few sinners to seek the Lord, but it has probably turned more people away from God and our Lord Jesus Christ than it has attracted.

In the new world, there is no more night, so how can we have night and day forever and ever

[quote author=Image123]
it would be better you shut up on this issue. Jesus clearly said God had forsaken Him, and it is clear that he was forsaken as He bore our punishment. He did not say "My God, My God, why are you separated yourself from me", whatever twist you are trying to pull here. He actually said it with a loud voice for that matter.
Mar 15:34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?


What sort of thing is this? Jesus was not in the grave on the cross.

Jude says they are burning. He did not say "Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, they suffer[b]ed[/b] the vengeance of eternal fire."
Instead, the Lord through Jude says "Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffer[b]ing[/b] the vengeance of eternal fire."

What is my so-called hell. You are being personal, childish and sentimental with this.

2Pe 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

you lost me here, don't fully understand your sentence. Anyway, there is hell and there is the lake of fire/hell fire. Many times it is generalised as hell, especially in the OT. It is in Revelation and from the mouth of Jesus the Creator of hell fire, that there is some further Revelation of hell fire. Otherwise passages like Psa 9:17 The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God. would be unnecessary if hell is always grave. Everybody, including the righteous are going to the grave.

Nobody is in the lake of fire at the moment. It appears the first victim would be the antichrist and his friend.

Here it is again, observe the tenses, they are there with purpose.

Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, arewere set forth for an example, sufferingsuffered the vengeance of eternal fire.

i wonder what parable you are on about. here is context.

Luk 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
Luk 10:12 But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.
The destroyed would stand in judgement on the last day. Destroy is not the end, part 2 dey as it were.

You frosbel have more threads and posts on hell than i do. You've been breathing hell and souls quite recently too. i just preach the gospel, the gospel of repent and don't be a fool . That's what i usually do on NL. i doubt if you can't quote me anywhere telling anyone that he would be tormented forever and ever. It's truth to the sinner, but i'm not busy propagating that as you claimed. you are seeing things that are not friend.

Hmmm, with frosbel, english words take on new definitions. Words like 'many times', 'forever and ever', forsaken etc.

What should be asked is, does it make sense to wake up the dead, and kill them again? criminals stay in detention in some form of prison until their sentence. It makes good sense. But to wake the dead, make them stand before God collect them from the sea, from death, from hell, and then kill them all again. that's the one that makes no sense, seeing you are looking for sense.

i said it before and it is worth repeating. Hell fire is not a place IN God's new world. It is outside, outer, without.
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Rev 22:15 For[b] without[/b] are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, [b]shall have their part in the lake which burneth [/b]with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Always note the tenses also.

To feel that you are forsaken does not mean that you are forsaken.

Simple logic !!

ah okay , so they burned first on the ground and are now burning in hades, oh sorry Hell

Not HELL Sir, the greek word is Tartarus and is mentioned only once in the entire bible.

5020 tartaróō – properly, send to Tartarus ( "Tartaros" ). The NT uses 5020 (tartaróō) for the netherworld – the place of punishment fit only for demons. Later, Tartaros came to represent eternal punishment for wicked people.

"5020 (tartaróō) is a Greek name for the under-world, especially the abode of the damned – hence to cast into hell" (A-S); to send into the subterranean abyss reserved for demons and the dead.

In the Gorgias, Plato (c. 400 BC) wrote that souls were judged after death and those who received punishment were sent to Tartarus- Wikipedia

Hmmm

Actually you should stop relying solely on the KJV , try the NIV , also get a Lexicon and a Bible dictionary.

In The Psalms 9:17 you quoted , HELL means SHEOL which is the same as HADES, the GRAVE not HELL which does not exist for now.

Original Word: שְׁאוֹל
Part of Speech: Noun Feminine
Transliteration: sheol

Definition
underworld (place to which people descend at death)

So where is the fire still burning, do tell me, we can get National Geographic on the scene to help us record this unfolding event.

Already sounding like a broken record, I pass this time.

Actually I only posted a number of topics on these subjects in the past 2 weeks or so , otherwise, I can take some credit for preaching the gospel and edifying the brethren.

Check my posts from my profile , thanks

Because , you need to read your bible in context , not out..

Check out what the Bereans did in Acts of the Apostles

Justice must complete it's full course , yes, there will be punishment in degrees , and then destruction.

But which one of these makes sense to you :


1. Death, Hell, resurrection , Judgement , Hell

or

2, Death , resurrection, Judgement , Hell

Hmm, you lost me here with this statement "Hell fire is not a place IN God's new world. It is outside, outer, without"

But there is supposed to be day and night right ?

and the torment will be in the presence of the Lamb and his angels who dwell in light , right.

I give up on you.

Good night .

Image123:
what makes you think that Jesus only felt forsaken? Did He say "my God, My God, i feel that you have forsaken me"? No, the Truth said.
Mark 15:34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
This was eveen prophesied for Christ's sake, literally.

you can't argue against the scripture, or rather you shouldn't.
"Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffer[b]ing[/b] the vengeance of eternal fire."

nonsense, you will soon mention 'tatase'.

(BBE) For if God did not have pity for the angels who did evil, but sent them down into hell, to be kept in chains of eternal night till they were judged;

(CEV) God did not have pity on the angels that sinned. He had them tied up and thrown into the dark pits of hell until the time of judgment.

(Darby) For if God spared not the angels who had sinned, but having cast them down to the deepest pit of gloom has delivered them to chains of darkness to be kept for judgment;

(GNB) God did not spare the angels who sinned, but threw them into hell, where they are kept chained in darkness, waiting for the Day of Judgment.

(GW) God didn't spare angels who sinned. He threw them into hell, where he has secured them with chains of darkness and is holding them for judgment.

(KJV) For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
Stop stammering alright. Note the bolded on your quoted remark and the passages from different translations that i quoted.

i have, and have used close to 20 if not more versions and translations, also have the other tools you advised. i've continually come to discover that who i need more is the Spirit. And the kjv i find very reliable.

If you had read me instead of been eager to post

you would have noticed me say "Many times it is generalised as hell, especially in the OT. It is in Revelation and from the mouth of Jesus the Creator of hell fire, that there is some further Revelation of hell fire." It is the context that should now tell you which is being inferred having the benefit of hindsight and the complete Bible.

Quite foolish of you, why not engage them in helping you locate Heaven first. You dare to use an atheistic argument on me, just to make a point?

when the Word of God sounds like a broken record to you, there is real problem.
i wonder what parable you are on about. here is context.

Luk 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
Luk 10:12 But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.
The destroyed would stand in judgement on the last day. Destroy is not the end, part 2 dey as it were.

Job 23:12 Neither have I gone back from the commandment of his lips; I have esteemed the words of his mouth more than my necessary food.

The FACT is still this- Y[b]ou frosbel have more threads and posts on hell than i do. You've been breathing hell and souls quite recently too. i just preach the gospel, the gospel of repent and don't be a fool .[/b] That's what i usually do on NL. i doubt if you can't quote me anywhere telling anyone that he would be tormented forever and ever. It's truth to the sinner, but i'm not busy propagating that as you claimed. you are seeing things that are not friend.

so you assume that the mark of Berean christians is to make english words take on new definitions. Words like 'many times', 'forever and ever', forsaken etc.

Isn't it disturbing to you that when you want to make a point, you bring up distinctions of Sheol, Gehenna, Tataroo, hades and their little cousins. But when you want to delude yourself, you bring up Hell, Hell, Hell and a emoticon? Your number 1 makes sense to me BTW, when you truly put the first hell as hell, and the second hell as the lake of fire.

Don't remain lost, Heaven is also not a place in God's new world. Heaven is and has been before God's new world. And i already answered your bolded, either you failed to read or decided not to understand. Here it is again.
The apostle uses the phrase 'day and night'to connote continual/continuous activity. Just like when he says
Rev 4:8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.
There is NO NIGHT in Heaven, but he John, perhaps for lack of many words, uses the expression "they rest not day and night". He is actually conveying to us that they continually praise God in Heaven. In some place, instead of saying uncountable or millions and billions, he uses phrases like ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands. The torment in hell fire is continual, hence the expression day nor night no rest.
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up forever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

he clearly states that it is forever and ever. In John's days/times, no man can work in the night, so there is rest in the night. But what he saw in this Revelation, no rest.

frosbel:




Now we can all see where this false doctrine started !

Tradition is not TRUTH, only Scripture is.

Ubenedictus:

Ha! This is a 200yrs old problem, you are interpreting death to mean that a soul dies the exact way jehova witness do. I present a food for thought.
When the bible talk about spiritual death or the death of the soul or the soul will perish it doesnt mean that the soul will cease to exist, it means that the soul is not in devine favour. Genesis shows the exact picture chapter 3 verse 3 shows that God threatens adam an eve with death, the truth is God didnt just say 'lest you die' in greek and hebrew bibles it is clearer he repeated the word for death he said 'lest you die die' or 'lest you die the death'. When adam ane eve ate the fruit did they just a immediate physical death the answer is no, so what death did they experience? The bible let us know it was a death in sin, a spiritual death, did their soul just cease to exist as you claim? The answer is a big NO, So what is this death of the spirit about? Verse 14 has the answer, spiritual death is a ceasation of divine favour not a ceasation of existence of the soul. When the scripture are talking of death of the soul you have to be consistent and explain it in line with scripture. Death of the soul is an absence of divine favour not a ceasation of existence.
Peace

danwo:

what Ubenedictus is likely saying, briefly, is that death is a dividing line. that spiritual death is a ceasation of divine favour. the ceasation of divine favour is in effect a separation from God. a separation or withdrawal which is not necessarily a ceasation of existence of the soul. God able to destroy body and soul though.

Ubenedictus:

Fosbel i read in one of you post that justice must take it full course and that means they will suffer for some time before they are distroyed. That got me thinking, what is the justice when one offends God? Justice is usually measure against the gravity of offense and the person who is offended, if i slap say italo i will be charged with assault, if i do the same to obama it will be called treason etc. So i thought what is the just punishment when one offends an infinity God, with and infinite love, infinite goodness? I can only think of one answer, if the person is not repentant mercy cant be applied so we will be having infinite justice. Eternal punishment.

davidylan: Day by day, week by week, month by month and year by year... the very essence of the scriptures is being replaced by our own feelings and emotions.

frosbel: Scripture means nothing to some people , they would rather ally with Catholics and their church tradition than the integrity of scripture.


Hell is not an endless torment , I have quoted endless scripture , all I get back is emotion and human logic.

The gospel is repent or perish , and perish means just that.

Keep twisting !!

davidylan:

Rev 14:11 “And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his cimage, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

frosbel:

And yet , there is no day in outer darkness , making it even more implausible that the Lamb will actually be staring at the torment of the wicked through endless ages.

Mate, if you think God is going to be taking glee in the torment of the wicked through liquid fire for zillions of years ,despite the lack of scripture to support this fable , you have just bought into another CATHOLIC LIE.

The apostles did not preach this strange doctrine, for them , it was REPENT or PERISH.

Now many of you are beginning to redefine the word PERISH, let us examine what it means.

per·ish/ˈperiSH/
Verb:
Suffer death, typically in a violent, sudden, or untimely way.
Suffer complete ruin or destruction.

Where is eternal torture here ?

And then the bible is consistent in using phrases such as , the soul that sins shall die, they will be no more , they will be turned to ashes, they will be left no root or branch, the memory of them will perish.

But , somehow we have managed to conjure up some different meanings for all these simple words , for which their meanings are obvious.

I am out, I tried anyway.

davidylan:

I didnt bother to argue... merely quoted the bible. You are free to disagree with it on the basis of your own feelings.