Ileke-IdI:
Personally, I can't marry a Muslim. Allah forbids it.

Why not?

How dare u ask such when u will not allow me to marry your women, thou boundless hypocrite.

Deep Sight: How dare u ask such when u will not allow me to marry your women, thou boundless hypocrite.

Name calling, Are we? A muslim man can only marry a chaste, believing christian or Jew not theists like yourself? So if ileke idi does not consider herself a true christian, she might not even be eligible for a muslim man? ....

Can we have discussion about religion?

Please stop lying. If a muslim woman chooses to marry me, is she free to so so? Will you not stone her to death?

tbaba1234:

Why not?

Allah forbids it.

Deep Sight:
Please stop lying. If a muslim woman chooses to marry me, is she free to so so? Will you not stone her to death?

What do you mean by lying? I really don't understand you.... A muslim woman is not permitted to marry a non-muslim... Where did stoning come from

tbaba1234:

What do you mean by lying? I really don't understand you.... A muslim woman is not permitted to marry a non-muslim... Where did stoning come from

Then what is the point of this thread? LOL it's like you're teasing the likes of Deep sight.

Where is a muslim woman not allowed to marry a non-muslim? Ever been to the SW part of Nigeria? Unless you're trying to say they aren't following the Doctrine.

^ Ofcourse it happens, I am talking about what is supposed to be...

tbaba1234:

What do you mean by lying? I really don't understand you.... A muslim woman is not permitted to marry a non-muslim... Where did stoning come from

and you really cconsider this in line with freedom of thought and conscience? Where is ur sense of humanity? You see this is why people eternally consider islam to be barbaric.

tbaba1234: ^ Ofcourse it happens, I am talking about what is supposed to be...

Where in the Quran does it specifically forbid our Muslim bros/sis from marrying Non-Muslims?

Ileke-IdI:
Where in the Quran does it specifically forbid our Muslimbros/sis from marrying Non-Muslims?

Do not marry idolatresses until they believe: a believing slave woman is certainly better than an idolatress, even though she may please you. And do not give your women in marriage to idolaters until they believe: a believing slave is certainly better than an idolater, even though he may please you. Such people call [you] to the Fire, while God calls [you] to the Garden and forgiveness by His leave. He makes His messages clear to people, so that they may bear them in mind. (Surah 2:221)

For men, an exception is made for people of the book, Jews and christians but it must be chaste and pious women:

Today all good things have been made lawful for you. The food of the People of the Book (Jews and Christians) is lawful for you as your food is lawful for them. So are chaste, believing, women as well as chaste women of the people who were given the Scripture before you, as long as you have given them their bride-gifts and married them, not taking them as lovers or secret mistresses. The deeds of anyone who rejects faith will come to nothing, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers. (Surah 5:5)

Deep Sight: and you really cconsider this in line with freedom of thought and conscience? Where is ur sense of humanity? You see this is why people eternally consider islam to be barbaric.

I don't understand where barbarism comes up here; A muslim is intellectually convinced that the Quran is the words of Allah. The laws are to protect the muslim, his faith and well-being.

Freedom of thought is done within the limits set by Allah ... Absolute freedom is an aberration

tbaba1234:

Do not marry idolatresses until they believe: a believing slave woman is certainly better than an idolatress, even though she may please you. And do not give your women in marriage to idolaters until they believe: a believing slave is certainly better than an idolater, even though he may please you. Such people call [you] to the Fire, while God calls [you] to the Garden and forgiveness by His leave. He makes His messages clear to people, so that they may bear them in mind. (Surah 2:221)

For men, an exception is made for people of the book, Jews and christians but it must be chaste and pious women:

Today all good things have been made lawful for you. The food of the People of the Book (Jews and Christians) is lawful for you as your food is lawful for them. So are chaste, believing, women as well as chaste women of the people who were given the Scripture before you, as long as you have given them their bride-gifts and married them, not taking them as lovers or secret mistresses. The deeds of anyone who rejects faith will come to nothing, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers. (Surah 5:5)




I don't understand where barbarism comes up here; A muslim is intellectually convinced that the Quran is the words of Allah. The laws are to protect the muslim, his faith and well-being.

Freedom of thought is done within the limits set by Allah ...

You see, this is what I don't like about religion; women are always cut short.

So a man can marry even a dancing babalawo tree, but a woman must not do the same. hmm.

Anywaz, as per idolatress, from my understanding, they're idol worshipers, no? What if the man does not worship any idol, no idols in his closet, can she then marry him?

Tbaba is an apologist however, not a good one. I like the way the discussion is going. There is a reason why some muslims hardly venture out of their section.

Ileke-IdI:


You see, this is what I don't like about religion; women are always cut short. So a man can marry even a dancing babalawo tree, but a woman must not do the same. hmm.

Allowing a Muslim man to marry a Christian or a Jewish woman, is an exceptional rule applied under special circumstances. The woman must be a believing and chaste woman. It is not just anyone. A muslim man has the religious obligation to ensure that his non muslim wife has the freedom to practise her faith.

Would a muslim wife be able to realistically fulfill her religious obligations in a non-muslim home?, Even with a man with the best of intentions...

One of the reasons for this could be that a non-muslim husband does not have the religious obligation to fulfill the rights of his muslim wife...

For Instance, Whatever a muslim woman earns from work belongs exclusively to her... she does not have to contribute to the maintenance of the home if she doesn't want to.... It is the responsibilty of the muslim man to maintain and protect his home... In addition, a muslim woman does not have to change her family name when she gets married... She keeps the name of her father.Would she have to prepare pork or serve alcohol? Would she be able to keep up with the prayer, fast in ramadan?

tbaba1234:

Do not marry idolatresses until they believe: a believing slave woman is certainly better than an idolatress, even though she may please you. And do not give your women in marriage to idolaters until they believe: a believing slave is certainly better than an idolater, even though he may please you. Such people call [you] to the Fire, while God calls [you] to the Garden and forgiveness by His leave. He makes His messages clear to people, so that they may bear them in mind. (Surah 2:221)

For men, an exception is made for people of the book, Jews and christians but it must be chaste and pious women:

Today all good things have been made lawful for you. The food of the People of the Book (Jews and Christians) is lawful for you as your food is lawful for them. So are chaste, believing, women as well as chaste women of the people who were given the Scripture before you, as long as you have given them their bride-gifts and married them, not taking them as lovers or secret mistresses. The deeds of anyone who rejects faith will come to nothing, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers. (Surah 5:5)




I don't understand where barbarism comes up here; A muslim is intellectually convinced that the Quran is the words of Allah. The laws are to protect the muslim, his faith and well-being.

Freedom of thought is done within the limits set by Allah ... Absolute freedom is an aberration

Apparently, you are a primitive barbarian undeserving of the universal charter of human rights.

Deep Sight: Apparently, you are a primitive barbarian undeserving of the universal charter of human rights.

Lol, Where are the rights of anyone contravened? If you believe in Islam, You are convinced of it and try to stay within the limits set... Is everyone who doesn't think like you barbaric?

You comments so far are bereft of any substance...

tbaba1234:

Lol, Where are the rights of anyone contravened? If you believe in Islam, You are convinced of it and try to stay within the limits set... Everyone who doesn't think like you is barbaric?

You comments so far are bereft of any substance...

Alright, for the semblance of intellect and gentility that you have always displayed, lets get serious.

I was once in love with a muslim lady from maiduguri called Hafsat.

The most beautiful creature I have ever set my eyes upon.

Comely and excellent.

We were delighted to be together.

But it wasn't possible because of your Islamic injunctions.

This is a violation of freedom, passion, spirituality, experience, happiness, destiny, human brotherhood, i cannot list them all.

There is nothing on the planet that can justify the constriction of simple human liberty which harms no one else.

Its primitive, antediluvian, barbaric, apelike, psychopathic, and much worse.

Don't even talk c.rap to me cos i lost something possibly precious jus cos of your religious indoctrinated nonsense.

And yes, as you may have noticed, i am not in the mood to make pretenses.

Deep Sight: Alright, for the semblance of intellect and gentility that you have always displayed, lets get serious.

I was once in love with a mulim lady from maiduguri called Hafsat.

The most beautiful creature I have ever set my eyes upon.

Comely and excellent.

We were delighted to be together.

I suspected there was an emotional undertone to this because you are usually more articulated... First of all, falling in love is a natural human response. But,it should never have come to that point. I am sure you were both fully aware of the situation.

A muslim should never keep a relationship with the opposite sex outside wedlock... There are no such things as boyfriends and girlfriends in Islam, If a boy is serious about you, he should contact your guardian. There is a period of supervised 'courtship' before a decision for marriage is made. This is done to protect the girl as well as the man.

She should not have gotten into a relationship with you or anyone for that matter (muslim or not) outside the confines of marriage... That is speaking from an Islamic perspective.

You are a theist, you believe in a creator... If a creator exists, then he must have a will because it is only with a will to create that we have a universe. Also the universe obeys certain laws and stays within the confines of those laws, again showing a will...

We have good reason to believe that the creator is not only into macro-management but also micro-management. Meaning, He has set laws for this tiny species 'man' to live life in accordance with His rules.

This is the islamic narrative, you tell me if it makes sense

Over time, God has sent messengers to people to tell them of his existence. Each messenger is given miracles and signs, things that are beyond the capacity of man and beyond man's knowledge. With this, there is no intellectual reason to disbelieve, what you have left for disbelief is arrogance or prejudice.

Imagine a neighbour comes to your door and claims to be a messenger from God, speaking to angels and tells you that you have to obey everything he says or you are doomed... What will you say? .... You will think, he is crazy, drunk or both. That is why there was a need for miracles.

So Moses split the sea, If you were there, you can not have any intellectual reason to disbelieve moses.. You just saw the sea split with your own eyes. However, with time these stories are regarded as mere myths, jewish myths or fairy tales... Were you there? someone might ask and it is a valid question. So each prophet was given a sign that his people could see, However, if you were not there, you can not verify these claims...

For the final Messenger, He was given a sign/miracle that would transcend time and would be a witness for all of humanity. That miracle is the Quran; That is the muslim claim. Now the challenge is to prove to you that this Quran is beyond the capacity of Humans; because if that is proven, there can be no intellectual reason to reject it. I started a thread to show some parts of this truly incredible book:

https://www.nairaland.com/972776/amazing-quran-pre-ramadan-study-interactive

Have a look and give your feedback.

tbaba1234:

Allowing a Muslim man to marry a Christian or a Jewish woman, is an exceptional rule applied under special circumstances. The woman must be a believing and chaste woman. It is not just anyone. A muslim man has the religious obligation to ensure that his non muslim wife has the freedom to practise her faith.

Would a muslim wife be able to realistically fulfill her religious obligations in a non-muslim home?, Even with a man with the best of intentions...

One of the reasons for this could be that a non-muslim husband does not have the religious obligation to fulfill the rights of his muslim wife...

For Instance, Whatever a muslim woman earns from work belongs exclusively to her... she does not have to contribute to the maintenance of the home if she doesn't want to.... It is the responsibilty of the muslim man to maintain and protect his home... In addition, a muslim woman does not have to change her family name when she gets married... She keeps the name of her father.Would she have to prepare pork or serve alcohol? Would she be able to keep up with the prayer, fast in ramadan?

You're saying so much, yet I hear nothing lol.

Religion and its sexism.

So a man has a choice to marry outside of Islam, but a woman doesn't. Okay.

Ileke-IdI:
Religion and its sexism.

So a man has a choice to marry outside of Islam, but a woman doesn't. Okay.

Do men and women serve the same role in a family structure?

tbaba1234:

Do men and women serve the same role in a family structure?

Excuse me, this is the 21st century.

"Roles" are society-determined, it's not written on rock.

What can man of today to that women cannot do in the family?

Ileke-IdI:
Excuse me, this is the 21st century.

"Roles" are society-determined, it's not written on rock.

What can man of today to that women cannot do in the family?

Even in the 21st century, the roles of the man and the woman are still generally the same as it has always been. I live in the US. The societal norms regarding family structure are similar. There are no known societies that were unambigiously matriarchal. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Inevitability_of_Patriarchy.

So the question is Straightforward.

It is not about what one sex can do... Our family structure almost always tends towards the same direction because Men and Women are essentially the same creatures across the world.

Men are generally physically stronger and hence are in the best position to offer protection to his family. Men are still hold the highest paying jobs even here in the US and are more likely to get a better pay than a similarly qualified lady. It is discrimination but it is true. Hence, they are also in a better position to provide as well.

Most women would not be riding trucks or doing the really hard jobs... You get women doing this but they are by far the minority.

The roles might slightly differ in its application from from country to country but generally it is the same. Destroying this balance leads to all kinds of family upheavals and i think is partly responsible for increasing rates of broken homes....

tbaba1234:

Even in the 21st century, the roles of the man and the woman are still generally the same as it has always been. I live in the US. The societal norms regarding family structure is similar. There are no known societies that were unambigiously matriarchal. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Inevitability_of_Patriarchy.

So the question is Straightforward.

It is not about what one sex can do... Our family structure almost always tends towards the same direction because Men and Women are essentially the same creatures across the world.

Men are generally physically stronger and hence are in the best position to offer protection to his family. Men are still hold the highest paying jobs even here in the US and are more likely to get a better pay than a similarly qualified lady. It is discrimination but it is true. Hence, they are also in a better position to provide as well.

Most women would not be riding jobs or doing the really hard jobs... You get women doing this but they are by far the minority.

The roles might slightly differ in its application from from country to country but generally it is the same.

What has today's stereotypes (those you mentioned) got to do with sexism in Muslim marriages?

I'm completely lost here.

BTW, you've yet to mention gender role differences pertaining to muslim marriages o. . . . lazy naija men who cannot even go to the kitchen to pound iyan dey talk about physical strength lol. I love y'all tho, my naija men hehehe.

Ileke-IdI:


What has today's stereotypes (those you mentioned) got to do with sexism in Muslim marriages?

I'm completely lost here.

BTW, you've yet to mention gender role differences pertaining to muslim marriages o. . . . lazy naija men who cannot even go to the kitchen to pound iyan dey talk about physical strength lol. I love y'all tho, my naija men hehehe.

My point is this,

The role of men and women in marriages are different. The men play a leading role (usually) in most families and the women usually plays the supporting role. The same rules can not always apply to them.

The muslim man limited option of getting married to a believing Jew or Christian as the leader of his home is different from a muslim woman who goes to play a supporting role by getting married to a Jew or Christian. Agree or not?

tbaba1234:

My point is this,

The role of men and women in marriages are different. The men play a leading role (usually) in most families and the women usually plays the supporting role. The same rules can not always apply to them.

The muslim man limited option of getting married to a believing Jew or Christian as the leader of his home is different from a muslim woman who goes to play a supporting role by getting married to a Jew or Christian. Agree or not?

So in Muslim marriages, a man cannot support his wife's religion? There's no marital respect for religious differences?

Hmm I'm not feeling this religion of Islam o. It's almost as if women play the slavery part, while the man plays the Slave master.

In a normal marriage, both husband and wife provide support for each other, they're each other's rock.

Ileke-IdI:


So in Muslim marriages, a man cannot support his wife's religion? There's no marital respect for religious differences?

Hmm I'm not feeling this religion of Islam o. It's almost as if women play the slavery part, while the man plays the Slave master.

In a normal marriage, both husband and wife provide support for each other, they're each other's rock.

On the contrary, a muslim man must allow his christian or jewish wife practise her faith... He can not compel her to change her faith. Like the Quran says:

“Let there be no compulsion in religion. Truth has been made clear from error. Whoever rejects false worship and believes in God has grasped the most trustworthy handhold that never breaks. And God hears and knows all things.” (Quran 2:256)

Marriage is a partnership, like the Quran says:

"They (your wives) are your garment and you are a garment for them." [Noble Quran 2:187]

Even in partnerships, there is a leading partner....

Like the Quran says:

Wives have [rights] similar to their [obligations], according to what is recognized to be fair, and husbands have a degree [of right] over them: [both should remember that] God is almighty and wise. (Surah 2:228)

tbaba1234:

On the contrary, a muslim man must allow his christian or jewish wife practise her faith... He can not compel her to change her faith.

Ok, so lemme get this str8

1) A muslim woman is not "permitted" to marry a non-muslim

2) A muslim man is allowed to marry a non-muslim who wishes to practice her whole faith, even when it contradicts to doctrines of allah.



So really, what is the point? All you're telling is that women are inferior. So Allah does not see women as a man's supporting rock, but as a slave to receive whiplash when she disobeys the words of allah.

Am i getting this correct?

Ileke-IdI:


Ok, so lemme get this str8

1) A muslim woman is not "permitted" to marry a non-muslim

2) A muslim man is allowed to marry a non-muslim who wishes to practice her whole faith, even when it contradicts to doctrines of allah.

Are you reading my words upside down? lol. A muslim woman is not a slave to no one.... Understand that first.

The man and the woman are partners in marriage, That is why i stated the verse that stated:

"They (your wives) are your garment and you are a garment for them." [Noble Quran 2:187]

Just as a garment hides our unclothedness, so do husband and wife, by entering into the relationship of marriage, secure each other's chastity. The garment gives comfort to the body; so does the husband find comfort in his wife's company and she in his. "The garment is the grace, the beauty, the embellishment of the body, so too are wives to their husbands as their husbands are to them."

That is the Islamic position of the wife and the husband in the family... It is a partnership, they work together.

We established earlier that most societies in the world are essentially patriarchal...

A muslim man limited right to marry outside his faith as the leader of his home is different from a muslim woman marrying outside her faith in a supporting role to a man.

A muslim man that marries a Jew or a christian has the religious obligation to ensure that his wife worship whatever she wants even though he does not agree with her. He can not force her. This is restricted to pious and chaste Jews and Christian, not nominal christians.

A muslim woman marrying a non-muslim in a supporting role is not guaranteed that right to carry out all her religious obligations. The non-muslim is not bounded by religion to ensure that his wife has the freedom of faith.

tbaba1234:

Are you reading my words upside down? lol. A muslim woman is not a slave to no one.... Understand that first.

The man and the woman are partners in marriage, That is why i stated the verse that stated:

"They (your wives) are your garment and you are a garment for them." [Noble Quran 2:187]

Just as a garment hides our unclothedness, so do husband and wife, by entering into the relationship of marriage, secure each other's chastity. The garment gives comfort to the body; so does the husband find comfort in his wife's company and she in his. "The garment is the grace, the beauty, the embellishment of the body, so too are wives to their husbands as their husbands are to them."

[size=18pt]That is the Islamic position of the wife and the husband in the family... It is a partnership, they work together.
[/size]
We established earlier that most societies in the world are essentially patriarchal...

A muslim man limited right to marry outside his faith as the leader of his home is different from a muslim woman marrying outside her faith in a supporting role to a man.

A muslim man that marries a Jew or a christian has the religious obligation to ensure that his wife worship whatever she wants even though he does not agree with her. He can not force her. This is restricted to pious and chaste Jews and Christian, not nominal christians.

A muslim woman marrying a non-muslim in a supporting role is not guaranteed that right to carry out all her religious obligations. The non-muslim is not bounded by religion to ensure that his wife has the freedom of faith.

Partnership? Have you been sleep-typing lol? Go back and read your previous posts, mon ami.

From what I understood, women have about the same right as a flying mosquito in a Muslim marriage.

You're funny sha lol. Do you even understand your religion?

Ileke-IdI:


Partnership? Have you been sleep-typing lol? Go back and read your previous posts, mon ami.

From what I understood, women have about the same right as a flying mosquito in a Muslim marriage.

You're funny sha lol. Do you even understand your religion?

With all due respect, I think you are the one who needs to read by posts again.

Where did i say or imply that a muslim wife had no rights in a marriage?

Please provide the evidence...

The only thing that has been discussed so far is whether inter-religious marriages are allowed.

I have said little or nothing to you about the actual marriage rights...

tbaba1234:

With all due respect, I think you are the one who needs to read by posts again.

Where did i say or imply that a muslim wife had no rights in a marriage?

Please provide the evidence...

The only thing that has been discussed so far is whether inter-religious marriages are allowed.

I have said little or nothing to you about the actual marriage rights...

A man has a right to marry outside of Islam, but a woman does not.

A man can allow his non-muslim woman to practice her religion, but a woman must not even think of it.

A man is the leading role, a woman "supports" him.

hmmm

Ileke-IdI:
A man has a right to marry outside of Islam, but a woman does not.

A man can allow his non-muslim woman to practice her religion, but a woman must not even think of it.

A man is the leading role, a woman "supports" him.

hmmm

A man playing the leading role in a family is not peculiar to muslim homes. It is common in all kinds of homes, christian, Jewish, secular et.c. At the end of the day, It is still a partnership only there is a leading partner and a supporting partner (like all partnerships).... Most of us grew up in homes where the father is the head of the home, does that mean our mothers had rights of 'flying mosquitoes'...

The inter-religious rules has nothing to do with the rights of a woman in a marriage. The rules are set up to protect the muslim and his/her faith.

I have not said anything about the rights in marriage to you...

I said this earlier

Marriage is a partnership, like the Quran says:

"They (your wives) are your garment and you are a garment for them." [Noble Quran 2:187]

Even in partnerships, there is a leading partner....

You are either not reading or you see what you want to see...