tbaba1234:

I suspected there was an emotional undertone to this because you are usually more articulated...

Of course there is an emotional undertone. It may have missed you that I very deliberately cited that personal case in order to show exactly why non-religious people become militant and evangelical in espousing their non-religious position.

The reason is exactly what I laid out in that personal instance of mine: the fact that religion can and does interfere with our lives and personal freedoms and liberties.

I am not going to waste my energy with you on this one because its obvious that you are closed minded on it on account of your primitive middle-eaastern religion.

The fact is that there is no reason whatsoever why two adults who love one another and are happy to permit one another to practice their faiths should be restricted from being together.

It is far worse when you permit one se.x to do so but deny the other se.x the same right.

The truth is, it was just a rule created to withhold your women from others whilst permitting you to have women of other faiths - and you know it.

Exactly the same way your egoistic islamic intolerance allows you to build mosques in the holy lands of other faiths, but no one dare build a church in Mecca.

It amuses me that someone as supposedly reasonable as yourself cannot see how hypocritical all these are.

Tsk. Enjoy.

Deep Sight:

Of course there is an emotional undertone. It may have missed you that I very deliberately cited that personal case in order to show exactly why non-religious people become militant and evangelical in espousing their non-religious position.

The reason is exactly what I laid out in that personal instance of mine: the fact that religion can and does interfere with our lives and personal freedoms and liberties.

I am not going to waste my energy with you on this one because its obvious that you are closed minded on it on account of your primitive middle-eaastern religion.

The fact is that there is no reason whatsoever why two adults who love one another and are happy to permit one another to practice their faiths should be restricted from being together.

It is far worse when you permit one se.x to do so but deny the other se.x the same right.

The truth is, it was just a rule created to withhold your women from others whilst permitting you to have women of other faiths - and you know it.

Tsk. Enjoy.

I like to believe that i am very open minded but you have to bring evidence to prove to me that my 'primitive middle eastern' religion is incorrect. Not only do i have faith in my religion, i have the proof and i am intellectually convinced by its veracity.

I can provide the proof that it is absolutely correct and show that its regulations have a sound basis.

A muslim tries his best to follow what has been decreed. It is different world view from the one you present.

Unfortunately, you are emotionally invested in this.

Anyway, nice chat....

Currently there are no official churches in Saudi Arabia of any Christian denomination.[3] The small number of Saudi Arabian Christians meets in internet chat rooms and private meetings.[3] Foreign Christians may meet at church meetings held at one of several embassies after registering and showing their passport to prove foreign nationality, or by private assemblies in school gyms located in gated communities on Aramco grounds. They can also hold services in each others houses.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_Saudi_Arabia

The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia is an Islamic theocratic monarchy in which Islam is the official religion. Although no law requires citizens or passport holders to be Muslim, almost all citizens are Muslims. Non-Islamic proselytism is illegal,[1] and conversion by Muslims to another religion (apostasy) carries the death penalty. As of 2010, there had been no confirmed reports of executions for apostasy for several years.[2] In February 2012, King Abdullah ordered[3] Hamza Kashgari to be arrested after three Twitter messages of his were interpreted as insults to Mohammad.[4]

Religious freedom is virtually non-existent. The Government does not provide legal recognition or protection for freedom of religion, and it is severely restricted in practice. As a matter of policy, the Government guarantees and protects the right to private worship for all, including non-Muslims who gather in homes for religious practice; however, this right is not always respected in practice and is not defined in law.[5] Moreover, the public practice of non-Muslim religions is prohibited.[2] The Saudi Mutaween (Arabic: مطوعين), or Committee for the Propagation of Virtue and the Prevention of Vice (i.e., the religious police) enforces the prohibition on the public practice of non-Muslim religions. Sharia Law applies to all people inside Saudi Arabia, regardless of religion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_religion_in_Saudi_Arabia

Can you tell me whether the foregoing are in tandem with universal principles on freedom of religion, thought and conscience.

Particularly I ask you, TBABA1234, to tell me if YOU believe in freedom of religion, thought and conscience?

Deep Sight:
Exactly the same way your egoistic islamic intolerance allows you to build mosques in the holy lands of other faiths, but no one dare build a church in Mecca.

Additionally it occurred to me that most people can criticize Christianity to the face of and in the presence of most Christians, but criticizing Islam to the face of, and in the presence of most Islamists might just be suicidal.

First of all, wikipedia is hardly a good site for siting concrete information....

I believe in all the freedoms within the limits set by the Creator.

There are no churches in the vatican for instance and many places in europe refuse new mosque licenses (france for instance).... Is that a violation of religious rights?

tbaba1234: First of all, wikipedia is hardly a good site for siting concrete information....

I believe in all the freedoms within the limits set by the Creator.

There are no churches in the vatican for instance and many places in europe refuse new mosque licenses (france for instance).... Is that a violation of religious rights?

Please stop side-stepping the question.

I asked, and I repeat my question and I please request a DIRECT answer -

Do YOU, Tbaba1234, believe in freedom of religion, thought and conscience?

Muslims do not tolerate the insult of what we rever... Taking the law into your hands is wrong but many people will be unable to control themselves if their mother is insulted.

I don't mind criticism on the other hand... Islam has the answers...

^^^^ Why has this question become a mystery-meal for you?

I repeat it yet again, please answer me directly -

Do YOU, Tbaba1234, believe in freedom of religion, thought and conscience?

I have answered the question:

I believe in the freedom of religion, thought and conscience within the limits set by the creator...

The Quran clearly states:

“Let there be no compulsion in religion. Truth has been made clear from error. Whoever rejects false worship and believes in God has grasped the most trustworthy handhold that never breaks. And God hears and knows all things.” (Quran 2:256)

Everyone has a right to believe what they want or think as they like.....

For me, those freedoms are within those limits...

tbaba1234:

“Let there be no compulsion in religion. (Quran 2:256)

Now if this is the case can you - without bias or islamic prejudice, tell me why -

1. A person born into Islam in Saudi Arabia cannot freely change his religion

2. A woman born into Islam in Saudi Arabia cannot freely choose to marry a non-muslim

tbaba1234: Everyone has a right to believe what they want or think as they like.....

For me, those freedoms are within those limits...

So in short, you believe in freedom of religion with the caveat that a muslim is not free to change his religion.

I hope you can see how contradictorily hypocritical this is.

It also goes against the grain of what it means to be human.

Do you never change your opinions in your own life? If so, how dare anyone prevent any other person from changing his opinion on a matter as PERSONAL as his religion? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?

Deep Sight:

Now if this is the case can you - without bias or islamic prejudice, tell me why -

1. A person born into Islam in Saudi Arabia cannot freely change his religion

2. A woman born into Islam in Saudi Arabia cannot freely choose to marry a non-muslim

1. A person born in saudi can be a non-muslim if he wants... No one is stopping him.. The problem only arises from one trying to proselytize his disbelief in a Islamic state. If he stays in his home and disbelieves, he has no problems. The laws of apostasy are not black and white.

2. A woman who is muslim, first of all knows that this convenes a law from Allah. When you are convinced of Islam, that is not even an option.

Deep Sight:

So in short, you believe in freedom of religion with the caveat that a muslim is not free to change his religion.

I hope you can see how contradictorily hypocritical this is.

It also goes against the grain of what it means to be human.

Do you never change your opinions in your own life? If so, how dare anyone prevent any other person from changing his opinion on a matter as PERSONAL as his religion? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?

You are putting words in my mouth.... A muslim is free to change his religion...

The condition of changing faith is only operational in an Islamic state and It is not black and white

tbaba1234: Everyone has a right to believe what they want or think as they like.....

For me, those freedoms are within those limits...

Honestly, this is a breath-taking contradiction. . . you say that EVERYONE has a right to believe what they want or think as they like. . . and yet you insist that muslims are NOT free to do so? ? ? ? ? ? ?

tbaba1234:

You are putting words in my mouth.... A muslim is free to change his religion...

The condition of changing faith is only operational in an Islamic state and It is not black and white

Why is capital punishment then prescribed for doing so?

Guy, get serious.

Deep Sight:

Honestly, this is a breath-taking contradiction. . . you say that EVERYONE has a right to believe what they want or think as they like. . . and yet you insist that muslims are NOT free to do so? ? ? ? ? ? ?

Muslims can do as they want, I am just giving what the Islamic position is.... Muslims break the rules all the time

tbaba1234:

Muslims can do as they want, I am just giving what the Islamic position is.... Muslims break the rules all the time

And face a fatwa?

I will leave you to your obvious lies and primitive delusions for now.

Deep Sight:

Why is capital punishment then prescribed for doing so?

Guy, get serious.

I am serious; Do you think it is just black and white... leave Islam and you get the death sentence... This is such a myopic way of looking at things..

The act of just conversion is not punishable in most cases, however if that conversion is accompanied by an attempt to discredit Islam or propagate another religion within the islamic state, It is considered treasonable.

This law is not applicable to new muslims so they get a free ride.

The apostacy law came about during the time of the prophet;

In order to discredit Islam, some Jews in medina would accept islam in the day and leave by sunset; They continued to do so until the law was put in place.

Guess how many people did so the next day? None..

Now if one is considered an apostate, a number of steps must be taken:

He speaks to the scholars about his doubts and is provided evidences about the divinity of the Quran so as to convince him, if that fails, he is threatened basically to shut him up from proselytizing disbelief in an Islamic state. If he relents, he is let go and can continue in his disbelief and live his normal life.

Deep Sight:

And face a fatwa?

I will leave you to your obvious lies and primitive delusions for now.

What is a fatwa?

A fatwa is a religious opinion and it is not binding... You really should try and learn about Islam....

Signing off,

tbaba1234: Signing off,

Yeah, yeah, worever.

Deep Sight:

Yeah, yeah, worever.

...

easy man!!

I apologize for anything that i might have said that offended anyone, It wass not my intention....

ok later!!

tbaba1234:

Well, this is the islamic position..

A muslim man that marries a chaste christian/jew must allow his wife practise her faith freely but should raise his kids in Islam.

If the woman is comfortable with that, then they could have a good marriage. It is better to marry someone with good islamic knowledge... Someone that understands the rights of his wife.

The problem would come from family and friends. If there isn't an issue there... Then carry go.

Why should the children be raised as “Muslims”?

In Islam is a woman's faith less valued than that of men?

If the non-muslim woman married to a muslim man allegedy has a right to adhere to the religion of her choice what about potential children? ...following your comments there's no "compulsion" after all....is it not?

Is this part of the reason why Muslim men are allowed to marry specific non-muslims? - to carve into that religious demographic?

emöfine2:


Why should the children be raised as “Muslims”?

In Islam is a woman's faith less valued than that of men?

If the non-muslim woman married to a muslim man allegedy has a right to adhere to the religion of her choice what about potential children? ...following your comments there's no "compulsion" after all....is it not?

Is this part of the reason why Muslim men are allowed to marry specific non-muslims? - to carve into that religious demographic?

I'm glad i'm not the only one to spot the deliberate deception here. Muslim men are SPECIFICALLY permitted/encouraged to marry only christian and jewish women (outside of islam) but NOT other non-muslim women. Why? I guess you got the answer.

tbaba1234:

You are putting words in my mouth.... A muslim is free to change his religion...

The condition of changing faith is only operational in an Islamic state and It is not black and white

Ok this makes no sense whatsoever. The death penalty for changing faiths is only operational in an islamic state BUT islam allegedly claims to be peaceful and tolerant without any compulsion?

You say a muslim is free to change his religion but apparently this is only possible in a non-islamic state?

davidylan:

I'm glad i'm not the only one to spot the deliberate deception here. Muslim men are SPECIFICALLY permitted/encouraged to marry only christian and jewish women (outside of islam) but NOT other non-muslim women. Why? I guess you got the answer.

emöfine2:


Why should the children be raised as “Muslims”?

In Islam is a woman's faith less valued than that of men?

If the non-muslim woman married to a muslim man allegedy has a right to adhere to the religion of her choice what about potential children? ...following your comments there's no "compulsion" after all....is it not?

Is this part of the reason why Muslim men are allowed to marry specific non-muslims? - to carve into that religious demographic?

Thank God people are waking up. This is deliberate and I'm sure we know the reason why. Its a oneupmanship so to speak. There is no compulsion but they just must conquer Al-Quds (Jerusalem to you and I). There own holiest land is not enough for them.

tbaba1234: ^ When did karen armstrong become bottom of the barrel... Her book is required reading for most theology courses http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karen_Armstrong

tbaba1234: First of all, wikipedia is hardly a good site for siting concrete information....

Anyone spot the contradiction here?

matosan: Is it really advisable for a christain (d girl) to marry a muslim ( d guy)?

not really, but people will still do it anyway. It's of course easier if one of them converts to the other's religion- eg the guy goes to church with the wife.



the real problem is 98% of the time, the man will eventually become a practicing muslim, and by practicing i mean fundamentalist.

Can it work?

some have.

Given d present situation in naija is it possible

what's impossible about it?

Zodiac61:



Anyone spot the contradiction here?

Amazing one o!