davidylan: Another paper talking about telomere fusion - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20026586

Telomere fusion is an important mutational event that has the potential to lead to large-scale genomic rearrangements of the types frequently observed in cancer. We have developed single-molecule approaches to detect, isolate and characterize the DNA sequence of telomere fusion events in human cells. Using these assays, we have detected complex fusion events that include fusion with interstitial loci adjacent to fragile sites, intra-molecular rearrangements, and fusion events involving the telomeres of both arms of the same chromosome consistent with ring chromosome formation. All fusion events were characterized by the deletion of at least one of the telomeres extending into the sub-telomeric DNA up to 5.6 kb; close to the limit of our assays. The deletion profile indicates that deletion may extend further into the chromosome. Short patches of DNA sequence homology with a G:C bias were observed at the fusion point in 60% of events. The distinct profile that accompanies telomere fusion may be a characteristic of the end-joining processes involved in the fusion event.

Where do these argumentative blowhards get their arrogance from? they tell you to "go and read" while they themselves are largely devoid of any information. Imagine thehomer telling us telomeres fuse regularly... i'm shocked.

When he called telomeres the sticky ends of chromosomes i was 100% sure this guy was blind and as ignorant as a bat. Even a 15 yr old biology student knows better.

Again, that article doesn't help you in any way.
1. It tells you that telomeres actually do fuse contrary to what you actually said.
2. The article doesn't tell you that telomeres don't fuse regularly, on the contrary, it does occur in various ways with various consequences which is contrary to what you actually said.
3. I didn't say "telomeres are the sticky ends of chromosomes", I simply sent you to an article that showed you that contrary to what you think, telomeres actually can break off to form sticky portions. Please read it below.

Wikipedia:
Process of Formation

. . . .
During instances when T-loops do not form, the complementary nature of the telomeric ends results in nucleic acid hybridization as a result of their sticky ends. This leads to homologous chromosomal telomeres fusing together to form a chromatin bridge.

I'll be glad to see where you actually countered anything I actually said rather than you destroying your own arguments with your own references.

davidylan:

dignifying you with a response to your verbose, but largely substance-free nonsense is the reason you are bold enough to state such nonsense.

This is the best you can do after I've shown you point by point how and why you were wrong?
You need a little humility rather than just jumping up and down and whining.
It looks like you still need some more reading to do. Hopefully, when we meet again, you'll have properly studied the genetics you're claiming to have had a course in and you'll be ready to defend your own idea with something more rigorous than faith.

davidylan: Area_Boy let me ask you succinctly... Almost all our chromosomes have telomeric caps... if according to thehomer's brand of pseudoscience all telomeres fuse regularly then why are our chromosomes not fused mess? and this is the guy who says he came to make me look silly.

Just brainless sheep bleating meh to the nonsensical noise-making of their fellow atheists without bothering to think on their own.

Clearly you have a problem with reading. contrary to what i said earlier, lets see how you hold out your views. just for the sake of ppl reading this later.

I gave you a clear explanation of how the chromosome fused to give us one pair less than apes. All you have done is tell me that telomere-telomer fusion is impossible. However the pictorial explanation I have given you proves other wise.

It is indeed not normal that this happens, true. However you agree to the concept of mutation (MISTAKES). then what are we arguing here about??


your counter argument is that your Abraham god did it?? That's very scientific of someone grounded in genetics!!!

bollocks

If I may add one more thing.

I noticed you talked about the odds of this happening is slim and since it may be a "mistake" natural selection will "weed" this out.

Again, blatant arrogance towards evolution for you to come up with these claims.


I asked you to read about RING SPICES and you refused.


the ancestors in question were not all packed up in one location. If you have heard of migration (since you seem to hate reading) you will know that species of the same kind that migrate tend to develop new traits for their new environment. In a new environment where this "mistaken" telomere-telomere fusion is favoured, natural selection will weed out the rest.

It is easy to see if you really open your mind to possibilities. Rather than sticking to your Authoritative Abrahamic dictator as an answer to everything you don't understand

Area_boy:

Clearly you have a problem with reading. contrary to what i said earlier, lets see how you hold out your views. just for the sake of ppl reading this later.

I gave you a clear explanation of how the chromosome fused to give us one pair less than apes. All you have done is tell me that telomere-telomer fusion is impossible. However the pictorial explanation I have given you proves other wise.

It is indeed not normal that this happens, true. However you agree to the concept of mutation (MISTAKES). then what are we arguing here about??


your counter argument is that your Abraham god did it?? That's very scientific of someone grounded in genetics!!!

bollocks

Actually, his own article and a very short piece I presented to him showed him that his shouting that telomere fusion is impossible is actually wrong. Besides, you'll notice that he is actually unable to tell you why he believes that his own view is correct.
One other thing he doesn't realize is that even if telomere fusion was impossible, it still doesn't help his case because the evidence that a fusion event occurred is still right there for any interested person to see.

thehomer:

Actually, his own article and a very short piece I presented to him showed him that his shouting that telomere fusion is impossible is actually wrong. Besides, you'll notice that he is actually unable to tell you why he believes that his own view is correct.
One other thing he doesn't realize is that even if telomere fusion was impossible, it still doesn't help his case because the evidence that a fusion event occurred is still right there for any interested person to see.

Exactly the point man!

I just dont understand this david guy! and there he is raining insults on everyone else as ignorant while claming to have studied genetics in uni.

He needs a fcking refund from that school

Area_boy:


Exactly the point man!

I just dont understand this david guy! and there he is raining insults on everyone else as ignorant while claming to have studied genetics in uni.

He needs a fcking refund from that school

Seriously, this is what I face. He presents articles that don't actually help his own case. Well lets leave till next time. Hopefully, he's learned something.

thehomer:


Seriously, this is what I face. He presents articles that don't actually help his own case. Well lets leave till next time. Hopefully, he's learned something.

I strongly doubt that. But i'll be in hope with you.. LOL

Area_boy:

I strongly doubt that. But i'll be in hope with you.. LOL

In fact, where is he? davidylan!.
I wanted to show him this article before leaving. It talks about telomere fusion.

Maybe I need to randomly highlight and enlarge certain portions of the text to grab his short attention span.

Anyway, I'm out. He'll probably pop up again with the very same questions that have been addressed. And I'm sure he'll still be trying to hide his God under a flimsy sheet.

As I read through these fierce battle debate in 'genetics', I couldn't help but to wonder why a religionist as Davidylan understands genetics in-depth and yet would believe in a creationist account of Adam and Eve from dust. Doesn't he realise that his slightest attestation to the scientific discipline of Genetics which is part of the central core of Evolution completely negates Genesis of the Abrahamic religion.

If I understand you guys (theHomer, AreaBoy and Davidylan) correctly, isn't what you 3 have been battling about dubbed - The Missing Link?

ghostofsparta: As I read through these battle of 'genetics' debate...I couldn't help but wonder why a religionist as Davidylan understands genetics in-depth and yet would believe in a creationist account of Adam and Eve. Doesn't he realise that his slightest attestation to the scientific discipline of Genetics which is one of the central to evolution completely negates Genesis.

If I understand you guys (theHomer and AreaBoy) correctly, isn't what you are debating dubbed - The Missing Link?

in most ways yes. i'm not sure i've heard it being termed the missing link though i must be honest. but that is basically the missing link between us and the apes (chimps and the lot).

I put it to davidylan tonnes of time to come up with a counter argument but he refused. Since i'm sure he isn't slow enough to realise that the contrary is even worse than my posts not being true. lol

I still think he needs a COMPLETE refund from that school he studied genetics from

thehomer:

Actually, his own article and a very short piece I presented to him showed him that [size=28pt]his shouting that telomere fusion is impossible[/size] is actually wrong. Besides, you'll notice that he is actually unable to tell you why he believes that his own view is correct.
One other thing he doesn't realize is that even if telomere fusion was impossible, it still doesn't help his case because the evidence that a fusion event occurred is still right there for any interested person to see.

That is a horrible lie but i wont expect you to apologise. I NEVER said telomere fusion is impossible. My argument with you has been clear from the begining - telomeric fusion is NOT a regular occurence as you FALSELY imply but is actually rare and more of a mutational event that is associated with shortened telomeres and chromosomal instability.

ghostofsparta: As I read through these fierce battle debate in 'genetics', I couldn't help but to wonder why a religionist as Davidylan understands genetics in-depth and yet would believe in a creationist account of Adam and Eve from dust. Doesn't he realise that his slightest attestation to the scientific discipline of Genetics which is part of the central core of Evolution completely negates Genesis of the Abrahamic religion.

If I understand you guys (theHomer, AreaBoy and Davidylan) correctly, isn't what you 3 have been battling about dubbed - The Missing Link?

Actually not. Detailed study of genetics rather negates the idea that we are merely a product of random evolution.

ghostofsparta: As I read through these fierce battle debate in 'genetics', I couldn't help but to wonder why a religionist as Davidylan understands genetics in-depth and yet would believe in a creationist account of Adam and Eve from dust. Doesn't he realise that his slightest attestation to the scientific discipline of Genetics which is part of the central core of Evolution completely negates Genesis of the Abrahamic religion.

If I understand you guys (theHomer, AreaBoy and Davidylan) correctly, isn't what you 3 have been battling about dubbed - The Missing Link?

The horror!

Absolute no!

You dont know what is referred to as the "missing link" in evolution? and you are here debating science? Go siddon my friend.

Area_boy:

Clearly you have a problem with reading. contrary to what i said earlier, lets see how you hold out your views. just for the sake of ppl reading this later.

I gave you a clear explanation of how the chromosome fused to give us one pair less than apes. All you have done is tell me that telomere-telomer fusion is impossible. However the pictorial explanation I have given you proves other wise.

It is indeed not normal that this happens, true. However you agree to the concept of mutation (MISTAKES). then what are we arguing here about??


your counter argument is that your Abraham god did it?? That's very scientific of someone grounded in genetics!!!

bollocks

Very daft. Thank God for the spambot that took me away...

My counter argument was a point by point refutation of your nonsense... no where did i talk about Abraham or God. Infact i notice you could not ONCE refute my argument. Why? Probably because you dont really understand genetics and have been busy reading up on google to appear smarter than you truly are?

Let me say it again... telomere-telomere fusion is not impossible but cannot be the reason for human chromosome 2 because it is actually associated with chromosomal instability. Again i dont know how many papers i have to show you knuckle heads to make you see reason but oh well.

Area_boy:

in most ways yes. i'm not sure i've heard it being termed the missing link though i must be honest. but that is basically the missing link between us and the apes (chimps and the lot).

I put it to davidylan tonnes of time to come up with a counter argument but he refused. Since i'm sure he isn't slow enough to realise that the contrary is even worse than my posts not being true. lol

I still think he needs a COMPLETE refund from that school he studied genetics from

Which is it dude? Did i refuse or come up with abrahamic explanations because you have said both in the space of 30 mins? i had a lengthy riposte to your copy-paste job and you ran away like an ignorant coward only to show up when i was safely out of the thread?

http://bloodjournal.hematologylibrary.org/content/116/11/1899.full

Published in Blood in 2010. Read and weep id[i]i[/i]ots.

thehomer:

Actually, his own article and a very short piece I presented to him showed him that his shouting that telomere fusion is impossible is actually wrong. Besides, you'll notice that he is actually unable to tell you why he believes that his own view is correct.
One other thing he doesn't realize is that even if telomere fusion was impossible, it still doesn't help his case because the evidence that a fusion event occurred is still right there for any interested person to see.

See my post from page 5 -

davidylan:

Here let me educate you as well...

Telomeres naturally dont fuse. If they "do so quite regularly" as you falsely claim then explain succinctly why all our chromosomes have failed to fuse since most have telomeric repeats?

Secondly, [size=18pt]you should know that actual experiments in humans indicates clearly that telomere-telomere fusion, on the rare occassions they occur, is associated with loss of telomere function, chromosomal instability and significant shortening of telomeric repeats.[/size] All 3 would have been incompatible with a stable fused chromosome 2 in humans.

try again dumbo.

I'm not expecting a lying coward like you to apologise though.

davidylan:

That is a horrible lie but i wont expect you to apologise. I NEVER said telomere fusion is impossible. My argument with you has been clear from the begining - telomeric fusion is NOT a regular occurence as you FALSELY imply but is actually rare and more of a mutational event that is associated with shortened telomeres and chromosomal instability.

How can you actually tell such lies when your posts are still up?
Now, who made the following ignorant statements?

davidylan:
a. It is virtually impossible for chromosomes to fuse telomere to telomere (well if it were possible then we would just have one long chromosome no?) so we can rule this out pretty quick.

b. It is [size=14pt]not possible[/size] that both chromosomes 2A and 2B split into sticky ends and then fused as that will NOT justify the presence of the telomere at the center of human chromosome 2.

davidylan:
[size=16pt]Do you idiots really need to "go and read" to know that telomeres cant fuse[/size]? That is a simple thing you can test on a slide.

Goodness gracious. Please tell me, how do you test this on a slide?

davidylan:
Here let me educate you as well...

[size=14pt]Telomeres naturally dont fuse[/size]. If they "do so quite regularly" as you falsely claim then explain succinctly why all our chromosomes have failed to fuse since most have telomeric repeats?

Then you said this which shows your confusion and inability to visualize.

davidylan:
your point is? undecided If both telomeric caps came off to reveal sticky ends then one would not expect a telomeric sequence in the middle of human chromosome 2 no? But since we see a telomeric sequence it can only suggest at least one cap came off right?

Actually, whether it was a telomere-telomere fusion or telomere fusion to another part of the chromosome, you would still see a telomeric sequence in the middle of the chromosome and guess what? We actually do see one.

davidylan:
Again idiot, let me school you again. If the telomeric caps broke off before the fusion of the sticky ends to take place then you would not find a telomeric sequence in the middle of the fused chromosome.

So what will you find in the middle of the fused chromosome if not a telomeric sequence?

You then went ahead an article which I had presented to show you that what you've been saying is actually wrong.

There are more articles that show you that what Area_boy said is actually correct and you're wrong.

Here's another one. You can follow the references at the bottom for more information.

Seriously, you went to read, came back and continued spouting nonsense? I have to ask again, what is wrong with you?

davidylan:

See my post from page 5 -



I'm not expecting a lying coward like you to apologise though.

There is no page 5 yet. I'm waiting for your apology.

davidylan:

How does this even make sense to you? There is a large similarity in genes on chromosome 2 and chimp chromosome 2a and 2b... so your claim is that fusion was the event that crowned humans with the intelligence we have now? bro you do need to go and read.

So wait or perhaps you want to claim that the fusion event added some extra genes that endowed man with better intelligence?

Or are we to take from this nonsense that somehow chimps who are known to be able to use tools and show emotions similar to those in humans are unintelligent?

I bow in awe to the foolishness of these noisy emptyheads.

While you're at it, you can apologize for the lies you told above or you can actually show where I said what you're claiming I said. I've helped you emphasize them.

I hail una o. I have learnt a lot from this thread about genetics.. And davidlyar..

davidylan:

Here let me educate you as well...

Telomeres naturally dont fuse. If they "do so quite regularly" as you falsely claim then explain succinctly why all our chromosomes have failed to fuse since most have telomeric repeats?

Secondly, you should know that actual experiments in humans indicates clearly that telomere-telomere fusion, on the rare occassions they occur, is associated with loss of telomere function, chromosomal instability and significant shortening of telomeric repeats. All 3 would have been incompatible with a stable fused chromosome 2 in humans.

try again dumbo.

Brilliant. And the Bible, dream, de javu or SCIENCE revealed all that to you?

davidylan:

Actually not. Detailed study of genetics rather negates the idea that we are merely a product of random evolution.

If you are so certain the study of genetics negates the idea connecting the origin of man (homo-sapien) to evolution...then what do you advocate as the origin of mankind? Creationist myth?

@theHomer

I think you were right about Davidylan fond of using a very weak tactics to defend not only his religious biases but to make his fellow religionists' feel correct. When you enquired him to explain why 'the diversity of life', he insisted you give explanation to why you think his clumsy disproval of areaBoys' pictorial fact isn't so.

He employs the same dirty tactic here:

https://www.nairaland.com/985810/5-arguments-killed-atheism/4#11412289

davidylan:

That is a horrible lie but i wont expect you to apologise. I NEVER said telomere fusion is impossible. My argument with you has been clear from the begining - telomeric fusion is NOT a regular occurence as you FALSELY imply but is actually rare and more of a mutational event that is associated with shortened telomeres and chromosomal instability.

davidylan: Nice nice nice! Finally one atheist who has an idea what he is talking about. And it just had to be an area boy.



Seriously... conditions that support human life are only feasibly present on earth and perhaps planet mars. If we havent found anything on mars yet, chances we will find anything on jupiter is close to nil. That we still rant about this "life on other planets" bull is mostly out of our desperation to prove the biblical claims wrong and less about genuine scientific discovery.



Dont worry... i took genetics in class, i dont have to be ordered around to read by the ignorant.



What you initially described is what is generally known as micro evolution (just call it what it is - mutation) which is very well established to occur either spontaneously or by biologically engineered processes. Nothing new here to see.

Now the idea that somehow this tiny mutations... 99% of which are deleterious to the host... is responsible for the complex multicellular organisms we have today is just nonsense. If this were to be the case, why do we still have the exact same unicellular organisms like amoeba today?



that's probably because you are just too thick to think.

Now lets examine your theory here:

1. The idea here is that human chromosome 2 is actually a fusion of ape chromosomes 2A and 2B. Now on the surface, the presence of 2 centromeres and a middle telomere on human chromosome 2 might make this a very plausible idea and hence a reason why humans have only 23 and not 24 pairs of chromosomes...

2. BUT how did this fusion occur in the first place?

a. It is virtually impossible for chromosomes to fuse telomere to telomere (well if it were possible then we would just have one long chromosome no?) so we can rule this out pretty quick.

b. It is not possible that both chromosomes 2A and 2B split into sticky ends and then fused as that will NOT justify the presence of the telomere at the center of human chromosome 2.

c. the only possibility is that one of chromosomes 2A or 2B split into sticky ends and then fused to the telomere of the other... makes sense from a theoretical point of view but then

- We would have to imagine the HIGHLY IMPROBABLE scenario that this exact same fusion was taking place in both the male and female at the exact same time! Why?

- Because if this occurred in only the sperm cell... that would mean 46 chromosomes from the male gamete and 48 from the female - this would mean only 3 outcomes:

1. An unviable zygote
2. A severely diseased offspring that would not be evolutionarily sustainable and thus quickly weeded out by the law of natural selection
3. A perfectly normal offspring that is infertile.



We dont need to read, you can state your points here clearly. We dont ask you to go read when you come here bleating for proof no?

You know, you can always share what it is you're smoking!

that sh1t is good

ghostofsparta:

Ofcourse I was aware it should be HomoSapien. I could have easily changed it if I wanted to by using the 'modify' button but I needed a religionist to fall for my trap by re-quoting my deliberate mistake because that is what all you religionists resort to here on Nairaland whenever you can't objectively counter an argument. You religionists comb our wordings looking for blunders and holes to throw back as a logical answer.

I wasn't expecting that religionist would be you: Mr. DDS (Deep Dafted Sight). I wasn't even expecting you'll shoot yourself multiple times this time around with the Russian Roulette I sub-consciously keep giving you.

Mr. DDS, doesn't your reasoning faculty find it conflicting for you to accept the Scientific/Evolutionary theory that the Homo-Erectus whom you quoted to have lived between 1.3million to 1.8million years ago clearly contradicts the Biblical/Creationist account of the earth creation 6,000 years ago?

Yours is a grand case of INTELLECTUAL HYPOCRISY.

Your IGNORANCE was exposed with your tails running behind your legs. Be humble to admit that DS has educated you and let us all move on . . . .

noetic16:

Your IGNORANCE was exposed with your tails running behind your legs. Be humble to admit that DS has educated you and let us all move on . . . .

read the entire thread so far my friend!!

.

.