so WHAT IS THIS ORDER by whom everything must be measured.
pls state clearly and understandably.

Mr_Anony:
Question is how can science correct anything without first assuming that there is a right order to correct to?

No, science isn't about assuming that there is a "right order" to correct to, it's about taking assumptions and putting them to the test to see if those assumptions match reality.

People used to assume that the visible milky way galaxy was the whole universe until Hubble's observations proved otherwise.

Deep Sight:

There can be no concept of imperfection without a concept of perfection, son!

Just as there is no concept of positive without negative, no concept of light without dark, no concept of up without down.

Do think about it: If there was no "up" could you say that anything is "down"?

As such, if there is no perfection, how can you say that anything is imperfect.

Please put on your philosophical cap on those noodles, this time, dear son.

And tell me what is the perfect standard for the universe, since we are imperfect. Since there are exploding stars and the earth is mostly water.

And could any evolutionists on this platform give us a plausible reason why the crododile has not evolved in over two hundred million years or the dragon fly in over 400 million years cause going by the evolution myth one might be forced to concluded they have reached the pinnacle of evolution thereby by making them ultimate species which they clearly are not.

Deep Sight:

There can be no concept of imperfection without a concept of perfection, son!

Just as there is no concept of positive without negative, no concept of light without dark, no concept of up without down.

Do think about it: If there was no "up" could you say that anything is "down"?

As such, if there is no perfection, how can you say that anything is imperfect.

Please put on your philosophical cap on those noodles, this time, dear son.

You fail on two philosophical grounds

1) Perfection itself doesnt exist. It is like saying ghosts exist because the opposite of ghosts is an alive human being. Wrong

2) Perfection is a subjective construct. Therefore, perfection and imperfection can exist simultaneously as a descripio of something.

-a perfect circle is also an imperfect (incomplete) cylinder

Pastor Kun: And could any evolutionists on this platform give us a plausible reason why the crododile has not evolved in over two hundred million years or the dragon fly in over 400 million years cause going by the evolution myth one might be forced to concluded they have reached the pinnacle of evolution thereby by making them ultimate species which they clearly are not.

the bolded parts show that you are grossly and deliberately ignorant of the scientific fact of evolution.

keep believing your myths as it is more suitable to your level of understanding.

in case you decide to understand what evolution really is, go and visit the links i gave you in earlier post

Pastor Kun: And could any evolutionists on this platform give us a plausible reason why the crododile has not evolved in over two hundred million years or the dragon fly in over 400 million years cause going by the evolution myth one might be forced to concluded they have reached the pinnacle of evolution thereby by making them ultimate species which they clearly are not.

So many fails in one comment.

1) Evolution is continuous

2) Crocodiles evolved from other archosaurs.

3) Dragonfiles evolved from bigger insects

4) There is no ultimate species


The fact that there are many species of dragon flies and crocdiles suited to their environment is already working against your point

Martian:

No, science isn't about assuming that there is a "right order" to correct to, it's about taking assumptions and putting them to the test to see if those assumptions match reality.

And how do you attempt to test anything at all without acknowledging that reality is orderly?

cyrexx: so WHAT IS THIS ORDER by whom everything must be measured.
pls state clearly and understandably.

It is because there is order that we can have this conversation. If there was absolute disorder, the atoms that combine to form you wouldn't even hold together and you wouldn't even exist.

Mr_Anony:
And how do you attempt to test anything at all without acknowledging that reality is orderly?

What do you consider orderly apart from this solar system and this planet particular,being habitable for us?
Do you consider it orderly because life exists here, or is it due another to standard. I mean, this universe is ordered relative to what?

Mr_Anony:
It is because there is order that we can have this conversation. If there was absolute disorder, the atoms that combine to form you wouldn't even hold together and you wouldn't even exist.

therefore this GREAT ABSOLUTE ORDER is known as....


still waiting..

Mr_Anony:
It is because there is order that we can have this conversation. If there was absolute disorder, the atoms that combine to form you wouldn't even hold together and you wouldn't even exist.

Stop all this rigmarole. You are an artful dodger.
The thread is asking why there is disease and death in a supposedly perfect creation of your imaginary god.
Evolution has a perfect explanation for disease.
But you dont believe in evolution, so what is your explanation?
Earlier, you mentioned something about the earth being damaged, right?
So stop dodging and elaborate for us how and when the earth is damaged.

plaetton:

[b]Stop all this rigmarole. You are an artful dodger.
[/b]The thread is asking why there is disease and death in a supposedly perfect creation of your imaginary god.
Evolution has a perfect explanation for disease.
But you dont believe in evolution, so what is your explanation?
Earlier, you mentioned something about the earth being damaged, right?
So stop dodging and elaborate for us how and when the earth is damaged.

Artful dodger

plaetton:

Stop all this rigmarole. You are an artful dodger.
The thread is asking why there is disease and death in a supposedly perfect creation of your imaginary god.
Evolution has a perfect explanation for disease.
But you dont believe in evolution, so what is your explanation?
Earlier, you mentioned something about the earth being damaged, right?
So stop dodging and elaborate for us how and when the earth is damaged.

My friend stop calling me an artful dodger while you yourself are dodging the obvious.
I didn't dodge anything I just went to the root of your worldview and dismantled it.
I have shown you how the very foundation of your argument is wrong. I have shown you why there must be God.
You must either agree that God exists or logically refute my arguments by showing me how God must not exist.
After that, then we can move on to talking about God's creation and the explanation for disease.

Logicbwoy:

Artful dodger

funny guy

Mr_Anony:

My friend stop calling me an artful dodger while you yourself are dodging the obvious.
I didn't dodge anything I just went to the root of your worldview and dismantled it.
I have shown you how the very foundation of your argument is wrong. I have shown you why there must be God.
You must either agree that God exists or logically refute my arguments by showing me how God must not exist.
After that, then we can move on to talking about God's creation and the explanation for disease.

Normal people dont prove negatives

Martian:

What do you consider orderly apart from this solar system and this planet particular,being habitable for us?
Do you consider it orderly because life exists here, or is it due another to standard. I mean, this universe is ordered relative to what?

The universe is ordered relative to disorder.

What do I consider orderly? Well, let me see...........
The fact that we are having an intelligible conversation.
let's do a little maths, working from absolute disorder.

It is estimated that if you weigh 70kg, then you are made up of 7x10^27 atoms (not counting electrons, protons, neutrons etc) that is 7,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 atoms. The probability that they come together to form your body is 7x10^27! (seven billion billion billion factorial - you can type that into google and see what result it gives you)

That's just your body, it says nothing of your intelligence and your mind. Now that probability happens 7 billion times(approximate number of people in the universe)
Note I have only accounted for human bodies hanging in empty space. I have not accounted for all the processes that must be in place for you to actually be alive and communicate with me via the internet.

It is infinitely impossible for you and I to exist let alone have an intelligible conversation in a universe of absolute disorder.

Logicbwoy:
Normal people dont prove negatives

lol, normal people also don't deny the obvious

cyrexx:

therefore this GREAT ABSOLUTE ORDER is known as....


still waiting..

The Great Absolute Order is known as The Great Absolute Order. That is just what it is.

.........stop playing dumb

Mr_Anony:

My friend stop calling me an artful dodger while you yourself are dodging the obvious.
I didn't dodge anything I just went to the root of your worldview and dismantled it.
I have shown you how the very foundation of your argument is wrong. I have shown you why there must be God.
You must either agree that God exists or logically refute my arguments by showing me how God must not exist.
After that, then we can move on to talking about God's creation and the explanation for disease.

My dear friend, dont take anything I say personal.Ok.

There are tens , perhaps hundreds of threads on NL directly debating on whether god exists or not. that is is not the question on this thread.
It is quite laughable for you to turn around and ask me to prove that god does not exist, in order for you to address my questions about disease and death. Extremely laughable.

I would respect you a great deal more if you can simply be humble enough to say that you dont know the answers. Period.
There are no prizes for winning an argument on this forum.
There are no winners or losers. we are all just learning.
It is not win or die situation.

plaetton:

My dear friend, dont take anything I say personal.Ok.

There are tens , perhaps hundreds of threads on NL directly debating on whether god exists or not. that is is not the question on this thread.
It is quite laughable for you to turn around and ask me to prove that god does not exist, in order for you to address my questions about disease and death. Extremely laughable.

I would respect you a great deal more if you can simply be humble enough to say that you dont know the answers. Period.
There are no prizes for winning an argument on this forum.
There are no winners or losers. we are all just learning.
It is not win or die situation.

Listen to yourself.

You first started by assuming that God is imaginary..........My argument showed you that God cannot be imaginary but must exist.

Your argument is also based on the assumption that there is no perfect creator else there would be a perfect creation with no diseases......My argument showed that the fact that diseases exist is an indication that a perfect creator exists

Now since a perfect creator exists, then evolution if it is true becomes a part of creation and diseases also a part of creation. To ask why diseases exist no matter what the answer turns out to be, will not refute creation because we have already proven that everything is a creation.

I think I have answered your question well enough from my first post on this thread the problem is that you don't like the answer.

I will respect you a lot more if you would simply be humble enough to admit that you were wrong.
Don't give in to fanatical blind faith. I implore you to uphold logic and reason.
There are no prizes for obstinately holding on to flawed positions.

There are no winners or losers, we are all just learning.

plaetton: The notion of a perfect and omnipotent creator designing and fashioning the universe, should at minimum, guarantee a perfect an orderly functioning of the creator's most valuable flagship product,man.

Apparently, that is not case. Just like a badly made product,the human product is beset with all manners of disfuctions and malfuctions, and without any reset or reboot buttons.

left untreated, a simple bodily malfunction can lead to a gradual degeneration and inevitable death.

This begs the question of how can a perfect omnipotent creator be credited with so much design flaws?

However, from an evolutionary point of view, disease, disfunction and malfunction should be expected and makes perfect sense. The trial and error mechanisms of ceaseless cell divisions are guaranteed to produce errors that manifests in the form of unfavourable genetic mutations.

DISEASES WERE CREATED BY THE LORD FOR PUNISHMENT AND CORRECTION.

Mr_Anony:

The universe is ordered relative to disorder.

What do I consider orderly? Well, let me see...........
The fact that we are having an intelligible conversation.
let's do a little maths, working from absolute disorder.

It is estimated that if you weigh 70kg, then you are made up of 7x10^27 atoms (not counting electrons, protons, neutrons etc) that is 7,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 atoms. The probability that they come together to form your body is 7x10^27! (seven billion billion billion factorial - you can type that into google and see what result it gives you)

That's just your body, it says nothing of your intelligence and your mind. Now that probability happens 7 billion times(approximate number of people in the universe)
Note I have only accounted for human bodies hanging in empty space. I have not accounted for all the processes that must be in place for you to actually be alive and communicate with me via the internet.

It is infinitely impossible for you and I to exist let alone have an intelligible conversation in a universe of absolute disorder.

Honestly you already have my nomination for Religion Section Poster of the Year.

This is so lucid and simple, it beats me that the atheist cannot see the ridiculous improbability, nay implausibility and impossibility of his position.

Logicbwoy:


You fail on two philosophical grounds

1) Perfection itself doesnt exist. It is like saying ghosts exist because the opposite of ghosts is an alive human being. Wrong

2) Perfection is a subjective construct. Therefore, perfection and imperfection can exist simultaneously as a descripio of something.

-a perfect circle is also an imperfect (incomplete) cylinder

If perfection does not exist, then it is illogical to point at anything and call it imperfect. Because the word imperfection derives from a notion about something NOT being perfect. Simple, boy.

plaetton:

The thread is asking why there is disease and death in a supposedly perfect creation of your imaginary god.

I already gave you a comprehensive answer in this post, but i noticed you could not respond to it - - ->

Deep Sight:

Now let me tell you something. A lot of people imagine God as some sort of creative man in the skies with all powers and as such begin to ask questions like this. This is not a deep, perceptive or nuanced view of what God is. God is the ultimate reality, and as such, only proceeds along the self-existent laws of logic which are the sum of what God itself is. As such, if there is an "up", then in self existence there will be a "down". If there is a "light", then in self existence there will be a "dark", according to the equally self existent principles of duality inherent in reality. This is why we have positive and negative, and this is why we have generation (health) and degeneration (diesease).

In the broad scheme of things, these cancel out as an even reality: which balance of transcendent things is what the perfection (and justice) of GOD rests in.

I expect YOU to appreciate this.



And since God is the logical flow of reality, we do not see God "magicking" things into existence. They proceed along logical lines of existence and process, and this is why we have evolution. Now, in that process, what more perfect way to gradually improve species than have inherent in the process - the self same attributes of duality - generation and degeneration inherent in the system. - - -> [b]which is what then leads to evolution.[/u] It could not be otherwise anyway, being the balance of the existent God.

In fact, on a higher philosophical level i will say that this very reasoning is what renders God existent.

That existent God is not merciful the way the religious person thinks to individuals - but is balanced and adamantine on a cosmic scale.



We know that this is a foolish teaching. But in no way does disease (degeneration) obviate the perfection of God as I have described it to mean. Indeed, that is the cycle of all things even at the cosmic scale. Even stars degenerate for crying out loud.



It is weak, when addressing issues as big as the perfection of God, to attack only religious myths. I would expect you to broaden your discourse to the notion of God as a philosophical and logical construct.

Would you bother to address these questions to a Greek who believed in Zeus? Why then bother with Yahweh?

Addittionally, not all theists believe in original sin.

Why did you ignore these answers sire?

Mr_Anony:

The universe is ordered relative to disorder.

What do I consider orderly? Well, let me see...........
The fact that we are having an intelligible conversation.
let's do a little maths, working from absolute disorder.

It is estimated that if you weigh 70kg, then you are made up of 7x10^27 atoms (not counting electrons, protons, neutrons etc) that is 7,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 atoms. The probability that they come together to form your body is 7x10^27! (seven billion billion billion factorial - you can type that into google and see what result it gives you)

That's just your body, it says nothing of your intelligence and your mind. Now that probability happens 7 billion times(approximate number of people in the universe)
Note I have only accounted for human bodies hanging in empty space. I have not accounted for all the processes that must be in place for you to actually be alive and communicate with me via the internet.

It is infinitely impossible for you and I to exist let alone have an intelligible conversation in a universe of absolute disorder.

Yes, ofcourse, the numbers are mind-boggling and the odds are incredible, but, in the same vein pls take time to imagine , on any given second of time, how many collisions of matter occur in the universe. Can you even put a number to it? Can you even imagine how many stars are in the universe?
If particles of matter are colliding at zillions and zillions of any given second, just stretch your imagination a bit and consider that zillions and zillions of collisions or energy interactions per second over a period of 14 billion or more years can can greatly increase the odds of any type of complex configuration of matter occuring.

Deep Sight: nowadays we have nit wits like Richard Dawkings writing that the eye could have "sprang into existence in a single lucky mutation".

How about that?

Wow! In your hatred for Dawkins, you are willing to take liberties with the truth.

Its quite telling you know?

Here is what the man said.

For instance, it is theoretically possible for an eye to spring into being, in a single lucky step, from nothing: from bare skin, let's say. It is theoretically possible in the sense that a recipe could be written out in the form of a large number of mutations. If all these mutations happened simultaneously, a complete eye could, indeed, spring from nothing. But although it is theoretically possible, it is in practice inconceivable. The quantity of luck involved is much too large. The "correct" recipe involves changes in a huge number of genes simultaneously. The correct recipe is one particular combination of changes out of trillions of equally probable combinations of chances. We can certainly rule out such a miraculous coincidence. But it is perfectly plausible that the modern eye could have sprung from something almost the same as the modern eye but not quite: a very slightly less elaborate eye. By the same argument, this slightly less elaborate eye sprang from a slightly less elaborate eye still, and so on. If you assume a sufficiently large number of sufficiently small differences between each evolutionary stage and its predecessor, you are bound to be able to derive a full, complex, working eye from bare skin. How many intermediate stages are we allowed to postulate? That depends on how much time we have to play with. Has there been enough time for eyes to evolve by little steps from nothing?

http://www.secularhumanism.org/library/fi/dawkins_18_3.html

plaetton:
Yes, ofcourse, the numbers are mind-boggling and the odds are incredible, but, in the same vein pls take time to imagine , on any given second of time, how many collisions of matter occur in the universe. Can you even put a number to it? Can you even imagine how many stars are in the universe?
If particles of matter are colliding at zillions and zillions of any given second, just stretch your imagination a bit and consider that zillions and zillions of collisions or energy interactions per second over a period of 14 billion or more years can can greatly increase the odds of any type of complex configuration of matter occuring.

Its not just the amount of collisions in time. Its not just the mass. Its the intricate networks and systems each dependent on one another within a human body, for example, that render the improbable frankly impossible.

Deep Sight:


I already gave you a comprehensive answer in this post, but i noticed you could not respond to it - - ->



Why did you ignore these answers sire?

Your answer is somewhat acceptable.

But you are you speaking for all the bible huggers?
It is this biblical perspectives, the ones about eternal sin and redemption that I wish to challange and refute.

jayriginal:

Wow! In your hatred for Dawkins, you are willing to take liberties with the truth.

Its quite telling you know?

Here is what the man said.

Ol boy, i will seek out the quote where I saw the thing. Perhaps it was KAG, who was supporting him, that actually said so. I will verify.

Deep Sight:

Ol boy, i will seek out the quote where I saw the thing. Perhaps it was KAG, who was supporting him, that actually said so. I will verify.

Check here https://www.nairaland.com/758572/improbability-god
You remember, but you let your objectivity be clouded as you usually do when up against an opponent of your ideals.

Deep Sight:

Its not just the amount of collisions in time. Its not just the mass. Its the intricate networks and systems each dependent on one another within a human body, for example, that render the improbable frankly impossible.

Deepsight, You amuse me. You simply wave off as impossible what is mathematically probable, and then you mentally create a mysterious self-existent god (an impossiblity) as the most probable answer to what seems impossible to you.