Nodogragra4me:
Jesus expounding from ALL scripture all that was written concerning Jim by ALL THE PROPHETS means the entire old statement availability is no longer in doubt.
Lfor the new testament, it is obvious or ought to be clear to you that the actual actors were still very much around .., they didn't need scripture to tell the Corinth about Jesus ... They were the first hand witness of everything in the gospels ...when Christianity spread behind Jerusalem, Paul , Peter and John and the rest had to start sorting to correct errors and fiber directions ...this makes up very large part of the new testament.


The first four books of the gospels are more like personal diaries or records of each of those apostles.... Matthew, mark, John ,Luke

Good answer! Now, keep musing in that direction... did Timothy who never met Christ but learned from Paul and the apostles read the bible (New Testament) in order to know and preach the Gospel as the first Christian bishop of Ephesus?

You see, the church would still be propagating the gospel even if there was no written text of the gospel, but you would not have had the bible without the church. Here: 1 Timothy 3:15 ► "if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God [not the bible], the pillar and foundation of the truth.". The bible is one of the tools with which the Church teaches. It does not contain all the truth, but the Church does.

And here's the guarantee to the Church:
1. Matthew 28:20 "...And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."
2. "...And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”
You see, the Church has not only the authority from the Head of the Church Himself (Ephesians 5:23) but also the guarantee that it will never fail.

See here: Ephesians 1:22 "And God put everything under His feet and made Him head over everything for the church.

Do you know who these persons are? Justin Martyr, Tatian, Polycarp, Clement I, Irenaeus, Eusebius, etc. Why not go study the early Christians (Church fathers) and know how they preached the Word of God.

LordReed:


LoL! This:

1 Kings 22:22 King James Version (KJV)
...And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.

is not an instruction? LMFAO!

Not an instruction, but a permission. The spirit was willing and was permitted. Same manner the devil was permitted to tempt Job, and a couple of other instances like that in the bible.

LordReed:


So how does your god instructing a spirit to go lie show that there is such an absolute standard?

Again, it was not an instruction.
"And one said this, another that, until this spirit came forth and stood before the LORD, saying, ‘I will deceive him.’ The LORD asked: How? He answered, ‘I will go forth and become a lying spirit in the mouths of all his prophets.’ The LORD replied: You shall succeed in deceiving him. Go forth and do this."
God permits evil as punishment and to bring about a greater good. There are a couple more passages like that in the bible.

Argument from desire: Briefly and roughly, the argument states that humans’ natural desire for eternal happiness must be capable of satisfaction, because all natural desires are capable of satisfaction. Source

So if I desire the ultimate satisfaction in my candy taste it follows that there is a candy god that can satisfy my desire. This is your argument from desire. Show me why I should not make such a conclusion.

Can your candy (material thing) give you eternal happiness (immaterial)? I'd say no on your behalf.

LordReed:


So how does your god instructing a spirit to go lie show that there is such an absolute standard?

Argument from desire: Briefly and roughly, the argument states that humans’ natural desire for eternal happiness must be capable of satisfaction, because all natural desires are capable of satisfaction. Source

So if I desire the ultimate satisfaction in my candy taste it follows that there is a candy god that can satisfy my desire. This is your argument from desire. Show me why I should not make such a conclusion.

God does not instruct evil, he permits it. You've heard about the story of Job in the bible, haven't you?

Nodogragra4me:
Your first question was how ordinary Christians were able to get the bible to read and I replied by stating eleven scriptures supporting the fact that the scriptures were available to the ordinary people from the Breans in Greece down to the Jews of Jerusalem. I based my evidence on what was written right inside the same bible ... Here is your question:


How were ordinary christians able to get the bible if you claim they did read it? Are you falsely claiming the Torah was available for every Jew to read in the old testament times?

So I guess after writing the letters he made multiple copies of it so that each person was able to read at home... right? When Paul and other apostles were going around from place to place preaching the gospel, WHICH BIBLE WERE THEY USING?


I am never going to be wearied by your antics ... I know for sure that you are one and the same Ubenedictus.

Here: All of the Scriptures were even available to the faraway Bereans north of Greece, who, as we have seen, "searched the Scriptures daily" (Acts 17:11). The same evidence is found in the fact that Timothy knew the Old Testament from early childhood (2 Timothy 3:15) and that it was taught to him not by the rabbis in the synagogue but at home by his mother and grandmother, who themselves were women of faith (2 Timothy 1:5).

To teach it at home they would have to have a copy of what they were teaching

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mxDumU0TSrY

Nodogragra4me:
Your first question was how ordinary Christians were able to get the bible to read and I replied by stating eleven scriptures supporting the fact that the scriptures were available to the ordinary people from the Breans in Greece down to the Jews of Jerusalem. I based my evidence on what was written right inside the same bible ... Here is your question:


How were ordinary christians able to get the bible if you claim they did read it? Are you falsely claiming the Torah was available for every Jew to read in the old testament times?

So I guess after writing the letters he made multiple copies of it so that each person was able to read at home... right? When Paul and other apostles were going around from place to place preaching the gospel, WHICH BIBLE WERE THEY USING?


I am never going to be wearied by your antics ... I know for sure that you are one and the same Ubenedictus.

Here: All of the Scriptures were even available to the faraway Bereans north of Greece, who, as we have seen, "searched the Scriptures daily" (Acts 17:11). The same evidence is found in the fact that Timothy knew the Old Testament from early childhood (2 Timothy 3:15) and that it was taught to him not by the rabbis in the synagogue but at home by his mother and grandmother, who themselves were women of faith (2 Timothy 1:5).

To teach it at home they would have to have a copy of what they were teaching

Bible means both Old and New Testament, Mr. Man. Which bible, especially the again.

Did the Galatians read letter sent to the Corinthians? Did the Philippians read letter sent to the Romans, and so on..? What gospel did Stephen read while he was preaching?

Good luck.

Nodogragra4me:
Your church prays to a supposed Mary, a woman without capacity to be everywhere at the same to attend to every single one of you. How does she answer your request?
Mary is the go to Jesus of your church ... she has more airtime within your church prayer time than Jesus , the Holy Spirit and the almighty God. She is the alternate and trusted Jesus operating within your church

It is to her patronage that you people flies to. It is her that is hailed ..hail holy queen ... It is her alone that has a litany that takes a minimum 10 minutes to recite ..where her image is in your church compound , you never have that of a mature and standing Jesus .. it is either that of a small boy or a dying man on her lap ...never a strong man

Check your church calandar , it has more activities for Mary than Jesus Christ. Go and check it

Your church is the church of Mary ..the only group or society within your church that has pray a it core when they meet everyday is block rosary and the pray is to Mary not Jesus .. Jesus is an attachment sprinkled here and there but the core is Mary. Every other group is about meeting and what to do except the charismatic group that is not even acceptable in some parishes

I am not wearied because I want you to think in your private time all I have written and tell yourself the truth against what is actually the position of the scripture on all you have been trying to defend

I'm not sure I should be arguing Scripture with someone who doesn't understand it.

Not only do those in heaven pray with us, they also pray for us. In the book of Revelation, John sees that “the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints” (Rev. 5:8 ). Thus the saints in heaven offer to God the prayers of the saints on earth.

Angels do the same thing: “[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God” (Rev. 8:3–4).

Jesus himself warned us not to offend small children, because their guardian angels have guaranteed intercessory access to the Father: “See that you do not despise one of these little ones; for I tell you that in heaven their angels always see the face of my Father who is in heaven” (Matt. 18:10).

Because he is the only God-man and the Mediator of the New Covenant, Jesus is the only mediator between man and God (1 Tim. 2:5), but this in no way means we cannot or should not ask our fellow Christians to pray with us and for us (1 Tim. 2:1–4). In particular, we should ask the intercession of those Christians in heaven, who have already had their sanctification completed, for “[t]he prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects” (Jas. 5:16).

What's the name of the church you said Jesus established and in which country? Please remind me.

Nodogragra4me:
Everyone conversant with the scripture knows the birth story of Jesus Christ. What your church did was to elevate Mary to a place she never envisaged, never asked for and never would have accepted . ..the place of alternate Jesus. And since she can't be whatever you people wants her to be , a demons has been roving round your church with an infant Jesus that never addresses you people . He always leaves the instructions to the demon to deliver to you guys


The one time he spoke, he said, listen to her ..... And what was the message, your Mary promised to be with each and every one of you people at the point of death, a classical heresy unknown to the scripture that Mary and not Jesus and not the holy spirit that Jesus promised each saint would be your company through life

What is the teaching of the Catholic Church about Mary? Are you referring to a Catholic teaching or just what you think the Church teaches?

Nodogragra4me:
I will only reply you with relevant passages from the scripture and then you can meet the person who made those statement to educate you whether it was Bible or Torah that he had

1. 42 Jesus saith unto them, [18] Did ye never read in the scriptures,....NOT ONE BUT MANY SCRIPTURE...ASK JESUS WHY HE WOULD ASK SO THE PEOPLE IF THEY DIDNT READ FROM THE SCRIPTURES.......... THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED, THE SAME IS BECOME THE HEAD OF THE CORNER: THIS IS THE LORD'S DOING, AND IT IS [17] MARVELLOUS IN OUR EYES? (AV, Matthew 21:42)


2. 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, [19] not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. (AV, Matthew 22:29).... Ask Jesus again

3. 54 But how then shall [18] the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be? (AV, Matthew 26:54)...... Ask same Jesus

4. 27 And beginning at [20] Moses and [21] [19] all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself. (AV, Luke 24:27)

5. 32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures? (AV, Luke 24:32).... The scripture that your pope lied to you that he produced was opened by Jesus Christ

6. 38 [7]He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, [6] out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (AV, John 7:38).... As the scripture hath said .. scripture already available said not the one written by your pope

7. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, [12] ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS IMPUTED UNTO HIM FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS: and he was called [13] the Friend of God. (AV, James 2:23)... Scripture already known was fulfilled

8. 16 [13]All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: (AV, 2 Timothy 3:16)

9. 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, [10] In thee shall all nations be blessed. (AV, Galatians 3:

10. 42 [13]Hath not the scripture said, That Christ cometh of the seed of David, and out of the town of Bethlehem, [12] where David was? (AV, John 7:42).... Hath not the scripture said ... If it was available it would not have said

That is ten passages from the Bible on the scripture.

Bonus: 11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and [10] searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. (AV, Acts 17:11).... These are bearems living in the north of today's Greece checking the scripture to compare the message being preached against the written word something that the Catholic church is strongly against

How does your Mary, tansi and the others answer the request of all your members without them being omnipresent?

I wish you could address the points/questions I raised point by point so I could know exactly what you are addressing.

Nodogragra4me:
Mention just one of the heresies of the original saints that led to the inquisition? Was it the original saints that lies that there is a purgatory somewhere where souls were warehouse temporarily for proper cleansing before moving into heaven; s scheme thatfetched the Catholic church the stupendous wealth she amassed around the world when they told their gullible ones that they could pay to get their loved ones out of purgatory in record time into heaven? Was it not the Catholic church that used purgatory to get men and women to rat on genuine Christians amongst them and even go to wars on behalf on the church against some states that didn't buy into their doctrine

You can Google the inquisition and read a lot about it. My point is that Martin Luther was excommunicated because of his heresies. He is responsible for the 33,000+ denominations of confused christians, all claiming they were inspired by the Holy Spirit.

RuthlessLeader:

Keep quiet. All of Christianity na scam. You are a scammer.

What an intelligent argument... You won the debate even without saying much. Please teach me how to argue like you.

Nodogragra4me:
The early church never refused the saints having the scripture. At the risk of repeating my myself on the same thread, I will state that the entire old testament was well known to the Jews .Joshua 1:8 called it the book of the law ...

How were ordinary christians able to get the bible if you claim they did read it? Are you falsely claiming the Torah was available for every Jew to read in the old testament times?

The apostles , particularly Paul wrote open letters which makes up the most of the new testament. They weren't coded letters but open letters to resolve issues and give direction. All those letters later became reference materials for all Christian everywhere ... Your church didn't write them, Paul did

So I guess after writing the letters he made multiple copies of it so that each person was able to read at home... right? When Paul and other apostles were going around from place to place preaching the gospel, WHICH BIBLE WERE THEY USING?

So called saints and angels veneration started almost 400 years AD. The apsotles didn't introduced it. Council of Ephesus introduced Mary as the mother of God in 431. Priest ebgan dressing differently from other in 500Ad. The title of pope was given by an emperor not Peter and this was 600 years after Christ reign. Worship of the cross, images and relics was authorized by order of Dowager Empress Irene of Constantinople not Peter . Purgatory alien to the scripture was introduced in 1439
The Catholic creed was actually a personal creed of one of it popes, Pius iv in 1560 it became officially the church creed. ... Assumption of Mary was very recent, 1950.

What is veneration, can you define it?

Wait! So you don't know Mary is the mother of God? Wow.

By the way, where's trinity in your bible? Sounds like man-made.

All these satanic doctrines was what the early church opposed because they could not find any scriptural support for such practices. It was this struggle that led to the inquisition and the total banning of the ownership of the Bible .. the people never misinterpreted the scripture as they had the holy spirit working in them .. it was the Catholic church working with magician of the cities desperate to keep their place in the society of the most developed nations of the time that led to the inquisition And that was the reason The Council of Trent held in the year 1545, that Tradition which you most of you quote Thessaloniki to defend is of equal authority with the Bible

I'm sure the concept of the trinity was one of those satanic doctrines formulated by the Church?

You simply are following a redacted version of Christianity started by an fallen catholic, Martin Luther.

It was actually the Catholic church and the many pope's that introduced heresy and expected the people of God to accept them.

It was actually the catholic church that helped select, compile and preserve the scriptures you claim to know today.

tranxo:


Church of CHRIST.

If you think Jesus recognises denomination, you have yourself a puzzle to solve. Superiority complex is deceitful. Of course you won't agree.

Church of Christ! Lolololol

Nnaa, biko tell us where you got that info from, no vex.

DeOTR:

Ignorance is bliss.

That's right.

Nodogragra4me:
All generation shall call her blessed. If you know the English meaning of the clause you won't be hyperventilating your ignorance on nairaland. ... Let me help you subsidized your ignorance as much as I can ....... If I look at you and then say , you are really blessed , I am only highlighting God's glory upon your life

It would amount to madness if because the Bible's says we should or shall call her blessed or favoured , that I am now to raise an altar and pray to her. Kneel before her, ask her to do what is exactly the duty of Jesus Christ particularly when she is not even omnipresent. Mary joined other to receive the holy ghost on Pentecost day. She is not everywhere to answer your prayers. It is demons that attends to your prayers because of the worship that they crave and you ignoramuses do give away.

Crave for Worship got Satan in trouble in heaven ... It is the only act he demanded from Jesus Christ on the mount and any demons that sees free worship will claim it.

Most contributors here are not pastor say this and that Christians , they have personal walk with the Holy Spirit. They read their Bible and the spirit expound things to them

The utter ignorance you are spewing here while claiming you are a Christian is the reason the Early Church did not allow every tom, dikc and harry to read the bible. I'm guessing you went to school... why didn't you abandon school since you're so smart you could study textbooks and register for O'level exams? And don't even attempt to blame your heresies on the Holy Spirit because the Holy Spirit does not sow confusion neither does it divide. All 33,000+ denominations claim the Holy Spirit inspired their teachings. Story!

You mentioned Apostle Paul. What did he preach to the churches with? Bible? "Christians" like you think the bible comes before the Church. You think carrying the bible around means you understand what's in it.

And for your information, only One Church was established by Jesus Christ and I will wait for you to give me the name of that church.

Nodogragra4me:
Very dumb contribution. The churches in the scripture that Paul mentored were not Roman Catholic church and they were everywhere in Asia .. they operated in the holy ghost and power like the apostles .. they had no image of Mary to bow to or pray to. You guys can only confuse those who have never opened the scripture. One lunatic claims the Bible was written by the Catholic church. I am waiting for him to reply me since I already poured light from the same scripture on him

So what are the names of the churches Paul mentored? What is the name of the church of Christ's apostles?

RTSC:
We never invite engineers and scientists.

Always the philosophers and sociologists.

Better than inviting social justice warriors.

icemania:
Christianity is the biggest scam ever... This is especially true in Nigeria.

Not Christianity but some churches.

Nodogragra4me:
Your rejoinder has not done any harm to my vague recollections of what I read a long time ago. The church of the apostles operated strictly on what was the early teachings of the original apostles and there was no pope. Just like what you have in the book of Acts, the church persecution started because the magicians of the city could not under what it was that worked the miracles that they could not perform and led many of the city people away from their idol worship.


First they sought to understand and have the same power that accompanied every meeting of the original church and could not come to terms with the single request of throwing out the city gods.

It was that man, Constantine, that used strategy to try and halt the mass movement to the new 'religion'that threatened the political power base. That was the birth of the Catholic and the many contraption the man introduced like a singular head called pope ... Peter didn't die last amongst the apostles and there is no known records that him or any of the other apostles became a pope . The man got some leaders to join him and banned the ownership of the Bible amongst the ordinary people. Luther , a former Catholic priest , iwasnt around during this time. Luther emerged when the Catholic church of Roman had gained acceptance amongst the people because of the fusion of their idol worship and the Christian sect. Luther should be a German or helped by the German elite to evade inquisition by Rome


I will reread some of the collections I have on church history but definitely not anything soon. I was given 2 Timo 1:6 in my sleep and I have to understand it and do something quickly

It's either your recollection, again, is faulty or your history itself is made up. The highlighted is not true. The Catholic Church is a continuation of the early Christian community established by the apostles. Emperor Constantine I legalized status of the Christians churches thereby lessened their persecution. Decades later under Emperor Theodosius I, the Catholic Church became a state religion and the church devised several means to fight heresies which (I think) included banning of ownership of the bible amongst ordinary people. It's quite obvious the 33,000+ christian denominations we have today is as a result of ordinary people interpreting the bible the way they want. Hence, heresies everywhere like sola scriptura, etc.

Linus was the second Bishop of Rome after Peter. Anancletus succeeded Linus, Clement I succeeded Clement, Evaristus succeeded Clement I, and so forth.

LordReed:


Before we go on define Absolute Morality.

So if I desire the ultimate candy that means there's an ultimate candy god?

Moral Absolutism is the ethical belief that there are absolute standards against which moral questions can be judged, and that certain actions are right or wrong, regardless of the context of the act. Thus, actions are inherently moral or immoral, regardless of the beliefs and goals of the individual, society or culture that engages in the actions.

If you desire candy, it simply means candy is your choice. It's not a moral question. If you desire to molest a kid, it is wrong/evil regardless of you or any other person's belief on whether it's good or not.

DeOTR:

The Catholic Church is the offshoot of the church of Rome. Don't lump all the Apostolic churches together. We all know how the Roman Catholic Church, for 1260 years, killed millions of early Christians who held on to the apostolic teachings and for having a copy of the Bible.

History according to who?

brocab:
Yes" Jesus believed His Church is the One true Church--Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah! For this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by My Father in heaven. ''Jesus said: on this Rock, which is the Word of God ''I will build My Church..

So are you part of that one church he established himself? Do you remember when he said "Do this in memory of me"...do you remember what that was?

LordReed:
LoL! Stop trying to twist my words to fit your narrative. Morality as essentially deriving from god is a presupposition which you fail to prove simply because you can't show any objective proof of how you know this god's characteristics.

I made it clear I was tackling the idea that there is anything called absolute morality, a standard that even your god fails to adhere to then you twist my words to try to fit your own arguments. Don't be disingenuous, a real god wouldn't need such tactics to be shown to be real.

I didn't TWIST your words, I USED them to make my point. You were making a moral argument, which means you believe some things are good while some are wrong. And my argument is, unless you don't believe hypocrisy (by God) is wrong, you are proving the existence of a moral absolute. You deny absolute morality while you act like it exists. That is proof right there.

Even our argument here points to the fact that absolute morality truth exists. If it's all relative, human beings wouldn't have to argue because your opinion becomes your truth and my opinion would become my truth. Truth would not exist at all.... but we know from reality that objective truth exists.

Talk about characteristics, the God I know is not a "God of truth", he is Truth itself; he's not a "God of love", he's Love itself; he's not a "God of goodness", he's Good itself; he's not a "God of justice", he's Justice itself. His character is the absolute/ultimate level of these attributes that you and I desire. That's the argument from desire.

Danhumprey:
Oh? such questions have been dealt with? pray tell, what's the outcome? what was the answer to the question? satisfactory?

Yes, the Church has been answering questions for centuries now. There's no single question you could ask that hasn't been covered. Try it! What question(s) do you have?

Satisfactory? You have free will and reason, so your choice.

Nodogragra4me:
The Catholic Church is not even the oldest church even if he is to start from the uppper room church of the Pentecost day. The whole of the writings of Paul were to churches in different parts of Asia.

The Catholic church came into being by the work of a war veteran who became a ruler. It was his decision that persecution of those called Christians had not worked and the best strategy to capture them was to join them. That was the beginning of the Roman Catholic church. When he joined , he demanded for a position within the church since he was the ruler of Rome


Some, having being wearied for long donkeys years accepted his proposal others wanted to remain strictly according to the scripture. Those who agreed had state backing to forcefully get others to bend or be killed.


If Roman Catholic church was the first church there won't have been any need for all the satanic inquisition that the church and the state teamed up to unleash on genuine Christians


It is longtime I read the history . Can't remember all the details

You need to study the history again, your recollection of it is partially skewed. The [Christian] Church of the apostles came to be known as the Catholic Church during the time of Constantine. The term "Catholic Church" literally meaning "universal church" and was used to distinguish it from other groups that also called themselves "the church".

The term was first used by the church father Ignatius of Antioch in his Letter to the Smyrnaeans (circa 100 AD).

Point to note: Even those other groups in the early centuries have no relation to the post Martin Luther churches.

Tedassie:

Thank you too. But are you also Roman Catholic? Just asking

The Catholics here,tell me they don't worship Mary and bla, bla, bla
Babylonian worship is what Roman Catholicism has brought. Santeria(the worship of saints) is demonic. We should not ascribe any special form of veneration or what have you to any mortal(living or dead) other than Jesus Christ(Yeshua al mashiach). Why? Because in his name, everything on earth and in the Heavenlies is being subject to.

Catholics don't worship anything apart from God. The church is a congregation of believers who are encouraged in the bible to pray amongst and for each other.

Something protestants fail to realize: the Church (Body of Christ) begets the bible, and not vice versa. This means that the bible does not contain everything Christianity has to offer... Even the bible itself admitted that. You are limited in knowledge as to what christianity is and has been about because you've adopted sola scriptura (bible-only) doctrine which has only been around for about half a century. The Catholic Church has a more holistic understanding of Christianity - we don't choose the oral over the written.

2 Thessalonians 2:15 "So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth (oral tradition) or by letter(bible)." Non catholics don't abide by this.

Tedassie:

And the Pope too.
The Catholic church created Islam. Bet you don't know this. #stayignorant

The catholic church created pentecostals. All protestants are byproducts of the Catholic Church. Do you know that?

brocab:
It's simple-One must be born again before he enter into the Kingdom of God. So - 32,999 000 it add's up to one true bible believing Church..
{Ephesians 4:11-13} And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
{Ephesians 2:8} We are made up together in one accord saved by Grace through faith and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--made up together to edify each other in the One true Church!

So you believe there's only One true Church?

Danhumprey:
Why will they even consider that possibility? They are too close minded. Everyone thinks his/her religion is the "one true" religion. SMH.

Only a naive person would think such questions haven't been dealt with.

LordReed:
Huh? I make no such argument, your god fails to follow its own prescriptions so fails to demonstrate absolute morality.

The following are moral arguments.

LordReed:
Your god has used lying and killing to further its aims and at some point even utilised human sacrifice.

LordReed:
Your god said don't lie then proceeds to give orders to a spirit to go and lie.

LordReed:
If morality was absolute then your god will absolutely never act contrary to it.

Exactly my point! If morality isn't absolute then you would have no basis to make moral arguments. Your arguments would be merely your subjective opinions. You'd be wallowing in cognitive dissonance each time you make a moral argument. See how your reality is in contrast with what you verbalize?

If God doesn't exist, right and wrong/good and evil would not exist either.

LordReed:


Gosh! What about this is so hard for you to understand? I never accused you of making an argument for god, you accused me of making an argument for god because I quoted the bible and I said that is a ridiculous statement because if I quote Harry Potter does that mean I am making an argument for the existence of Harry Potter. Its so simple I am wondering how you lost the plot.

I "accused" you of making argument for God not because you quoted the bible but because you were making a moral argument. You assumed there's value in "honor", essentially that "honor" is GOOD.

LordReed:
Lied how? I quoted your bible and you say I am making an argument for the existence of god and I show you how absurd that is by contrasting it with Harry Potter so where is the lie?

The lie is that there's nothing I said that's relatable to Harry Potter.

LordReed:
The same way I can make a case for the existence of Harry Potter by quoting sections of the books and pointing out issues.

I did not do that, you alone did. My reply was based off of your conclusion from the bible. I don't really need bible to make an argument for the existence of God. The bible comes handy when trying to know who that God is. The bible is primarily for people faith. It would hardly make total sense to you since you're yet to pass the smelt (reason) test.