LordReed: Ok so special pleading for your god. It declares an absolute morality that it itself is not bound by is what you are saying right?
What a question Is a programmer bound by the programs he creates? God is sovereign, the laws we know of were made for us for our own good, because only a creator knows his creations even more the creation know themselves. And if the the creator is good, then all that would come from him will be good, even if the creations see a snapshot of a whole plan and call it evil. Laws are meant to put things in a perfect order; God who is perfect therefore needs no law to operate as God. For example, the 5th Commandment says "thou shall not kill." It would be illogical if a God is bound by such law, unless he's not God the creator. Therefore, it's only right for a Creator to kill/destroy his creations at will because only that Creator sees every fault/malfunction that might impede on his other creations existence. That's why, when our loved ones die, we say God knows best, because he wants the good for us his children.
TVSA: whose standard you say? so you don't know when you hurt people except there's a standard by someone? when you are not a dummy.
I know when I hurt people but I have to appeal to a standard to make a moral judgment on it.
whose standard proscribed slavery?
Biblical standard of course. Slavery goes against the American Declaration of Independence which states "....We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."
Every [good] law takes its root from this "self evident" truth - that every human being is created in the image and likeness of God and therefore has dignity and worth. If that is true, then we do not get our fundamental human rights from our fellow human beings or government, but from our Creator. Therefore, the role of government is to protect those rights in the most harmonious way possible. So, in essence, without God, there's no fundamental human rights.
Stop being obtuse. Unless you are a sociopath, killing children for no good reason should be wrong to you.
What does god say about the killing of children? scripture backed answer FROM YOU(and not some itk) is what I need.
Right. But in your worldview, there's no objective morality. Therefore, if sociopaths form a majority, it would be morally right for them to ra.pe, torture and kill children because there's no superordinate principle, a moral law giver other than them. Each person brings his/her own view and boom!... a law is made for the society and binding on everyone including the minority! Have you read anything about Stalin and Lenin of the Soviet Union, Hitler of Nazi Germany, Mao of China, Mussolini of Italy..? Do you believe abortion is good or evil? Do you know Ireland recently voted by referendum to legalize abortion?
It's only my worldview - a belief in God that supports the argument that something could be right or wrong. Without it, we all have opinions of what is right or wrong.
What does God say about children?
At that time the disciples approached Jesus and said, "Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?" He called a child over, placed it in their midst, and said, "Amen, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven. Whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. And whoever receives one child such as this in my name receives me." (Matthew 18:2-6)
"See that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that their angels in heaven always look upon the face of my heavenly Father." (Matthew 18:10)
And people were bringing children to him that he might touch them, but the disciples rebuked them. When Jesus saw this he became indignant and said to them, "Let the children come to me; do not prevent them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. Amen, I say to you, whoever does not accept the kingdom of God like a child will not enter it." Then he embraced them and blessed them, placing his hands on them. (Mark 10: 13-16)
So when this arbiter of absolute morality goes against its own rules how does that show that an absolute moral system exists?
There's really nothing like arbiter of absolute morality, there is the source of absolute morality. The source of anything eternal cannot be in lack of that thing which it produces. Because we humans see or perceive only a tiny bit of the whole universe and reality, we are too arrogant to realize that the source of space and time is not bound by space or time, and therefore would know more than us what constitutes good or evil.
Funaki: why are you always shifting goal post? we started with God does not instruct evil, then I showed you where he did. You said it's punishment, I explained that it isn't but it's genocide. We are now at genocide is not evil.
Perhaps you're moving the goalpost, I'm not.
You did not show me where God instructed evil, you showed me where you think he instructed evil. Difference! I said the genocide was punishment; I'm not sure you have made any argument to counter that. Even if you do make it, it'll still be your own opinion, not grounded in any superordinate principle, because in your worldview, you Funaki, make your own morality.
RuthlessLeader: Everyone's standard. That's why there is outrage when children are killed.
It is an opinion, that most people share. Now, do you think killing children is evil?
Just not true. Not everyone is outraged by the death of children. Hitler, Stalin, Hutus of Rwanda, Mao of China, a lot of psychopaths, etc, do not think killing people is morally wrong. If there is no God, then we don't have the moral right to infringe on anyone's beliefs, even if the person believes it's okay to kill babies to get ahead in life.
It is an opinion, that most people share. Now, do you think killing children is evil?
Most Americans used to share the opinion that non whites are not humans and so are inferior to the whites. Slavery used to be legal in America.Was it it morally justified just because most people shared that same idea?
Nodogragra4me: Mr Since I asked the Holy for answer and he gave it to me I have had this burden on my spirit even when I went out to have some nice time with a friend since my family is not around..... He says to tell you that the first question you will be asked on your judgment day will be about this encounter with me.
I have to release this... It has been a burden since morning...nothing I did could clear this from my spirit
Sure. And my response will be that I warned that you are out of the body of Christ, but you chose to remain where you are.
Try as much as you may want to, you and your pope will never make God or his word a lie. Having sacked the Holy Spirit from the catholic church and replaced him with great thinkers, you will only get the result that is of the world for the enthronment of religion.
MAY GOD FORGIVE YOU. I should ask the pope and his gang about any truth and not the Holy Spirit, who is the actual teacher of the truth and not truth but THE TRUTH.
THE WORD OF GOD...the Bible...CAME OUT OF THE Church (ASSEMBLY) that was first ignorant of the same word... May your eyes of understanding be opened in Jesus name.
I asked the Holy Spirit what I was to write while I opened this page and here is his answer: He says to tell you that it is line on line... One explains the other to a novice Christian under apprenticeship. Here
15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, ...... He went on to say that the next statement only explained in detail this first state...... House of God
which is the church of the living God, ....and the last actually explain the LIVING GOD in the second
the pillar and ground of the truth. (AV, 1 Timothy 3:15)
I swear to God that I added the Bible verse from Eph 2:20... The spirit never gave it to me or rather never ask me to add it .
20 And are built [26] upon the foundation of the [1] apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the [2] chief corner stone; (AV, Ephesians 2:20)
Your word against Christ himself. Only the Church is authorized to teach the truth. Continue living in denial and willful ignorance until it's too late. Attacking the Pope of bishops or any individual isn't going to help your case. It's either Christ himself is telling the truth - that he's the head of the body (the Church) and will be with the her until the end of time - or he's lying.
Nodogragra4me: Mr. Saint is a title for God's people while they are here ... You don't want me to flood this thread with all scripture where the word is found. Everyone that calls the name of the Lord is saved and is a saint. Whosoever believeth is a saint .. stop adding to the Scripture. Any Christian is a full saint not partial saint and is to be called same without any official Decoration
There's no law against calling yourself a saint. You're attacking a straw man.
Nodogragra4me: You have used this sola scriptura too often without knowing the meaning ... Bible or scripture alone doesn't mean you are not to read a book outside the Bible ... What it means is that whatever is being expounded must have scriptura backing for even Jesus the Christ didn't justify any statement about his authority without a reference to the Scripture hence the many occasions he had to preface his statement with : It stands written or Have you not read.
Matt 4:4-10) Mark 7:13) John 10:34
Here is Paul affirming the SOLA SCRIPTURA: 1 Corinthians 4:6, Paul says, "Now these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and Apollos for your sakes; that in us you might learn not to go beyond the things which are written; that no one of you be puffed up for the one against the other
In Catholic public domain Bible
6 And so, brothers, I have presented these things in myself and in Apollo, for your sakes, so that you may learn, through us, that no one should be inflated against one person and for another, not beyond what has been written. (CPDV, 1 Corinthians 4:6)
New Jerusalem Bible ...Catholic recommended Bible
6 I have applied all this to myself and Apollos for your sakes, so that you can learn how the saying, 'Nothing beyond what is written' is true of us: no individual among you must become filled with his own importance and make comparisons, to another's detriment. (NJB, 1 Corinthians 4:6)
Douay Rheims ... Acclaimed word for word translation of the Bible
6 But these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollo, for your sakes; that in us you may learn, that one be not puffed up against the other for another, above that which is written. (DRB, 1 Corinthians 4:6)
You're in confusion. Paul wrote this before the year 60AD, so that would make all the letters and books, including Revelation, invalid. You see how your interpretation falls apart?
Nodogragra4me: Answer: I am not claiming to know neither are those your so called 33,000 denominations claiming anything. They, just like myself knows we know we carry the very presence of the teacher, The Holy Spirit. I never claimed I know the Holy Spirit. It is not something I have to keep under wrap for it would not be scriptural to do. Jesus regularly called attention to what he carried without apologise. You have to announce what you carry on the behalf of heaven.
Good to know you are not claiming the authority given solely to the Church by Christ himself. So, why don't you listen and learn from the authority itself? Why do your own will when you are supposed to do the will of God?
Your Scripture passages: I have mentioned here before that knowing the scripture is not a function of the human intellect. It takes humility for the spirit to reveal what is actually in plain sight to anyone. You can have a PhD in philosophy and theology and still not see anything from the scripture. It is seeing that makes the difference. Habbakuku says ... I will stand my watch and see what the Lord will say to me....not hear but see what the Lord will say ...say not present to...when you get to the level of seeing what somebody is saying you got another spirit of conviction beyond the intellect working through you
Wrong. You need intellect to be able to read and understand the bible.
If you had cared for guidance you would have noticed that the book of Thessalonians you cited in support of the extra biblical practices of the Catholic church never supported what you purport it had supported. ….. ”whether by speech or by letter." the information here simply tells you that both the written letter and their speech were one and the same. Whether the one they gave as letter or speech carried the same message.
Your second Scripture: You are to imitate me just as I have imitated Christ. What is the custom and tradition of Christ? Simple! It is written ...have ye not read? ... what saith the scripture? See: And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he…. Jesus?.... expounded(means to explain the written word) unto them in all the SCRIPTURES the things concerning himself. (AV, Luke 24:27) [/quote]The "speech" as mentioned by Paul contains more than the letter while at the same time not contradicting each other. It's simply impossible to squeeze a 2 year teaching of Paul for example in a book or even in 10 books. So you can't have it all in the book. If today you are offered Timothy alive and the bible, which one would you choose to have proper all the truth?
Your third scripture : keep away from men like the pope who live an undisciplined life and same that is without scripture backings … What is biblical discipline? According to my pastors definition, it is simply the disciple's lifestyle. Paul said more than once "what saith the scripture?" when proving his doctrinal points. That is the tradition he was talking about.. The tradition of validating every word from the scripture like they learnt from Jesus, himself.
Your pastor could try to teach you the truth but always remember he has no authority to teach it. He's prone to error and so has all it takes to mislead you. I'd suggest to learn only from an authorized source - the One True Church, where Christ himself is the head; the only pillar and foundation of truth. The only Church guaranteed that the gates of hell shall never come against it.
The tradition of the apostles was to ALWAYS show by the scripture that Christ was the LORD. God's tradition as practiced by Jesus and the apostles had support from the scripture. It never existed as an extraordinary additions to it. Acts 17:1-2 —In Thessalonica, Paul, “as his CUSTOM was,” went to the synagogue “and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures.”
There is no other way of checking the propagation of error but by the written word. The scripture is the only available tool backed by heaven for guiding against error within the body of Christians. You would readily agree with me that the only way for detecting error is by comparison against a known tried and perfect standard which is the Bible for one tradition can not be a standard for another. Example is your referring me to some ancient members of your church in trying to prove your point. The Scripture says the bereans search daily In the books of Acts 17:11 to see whether the word they receive had scriptural backing.
When paul warned us about the consequences of being wise in our own eyes because he already saw this consequence from the written word: 1Co 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is WRITTEN, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness
Proverbs 30:6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.
Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
Where did you get the tradition of the apostles in the bible? You simply don't know what they are.
Deuteronomy 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.
Angels in heaven comes tommen and only repeat the written word but a flesh and blood somewhere in his wisdom crafts something outside the scripture and you call it the tradition. Here: Daniel 10:21 But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth.
Revelation 22:7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book. 8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: (Angel telling John not to bow before him but your church says you should kneel before your Mary statue in prayer and still claim not to worship her) for I am thy fellow servant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book…. The BOOK…. THE WRITTEN WORD: worship God
Revelation 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
Therefore when you harp on TRADITION AND THE APOSTLES, I assure you that whatever was the custom or tradition amongst them was and is still in the scripture
It's really simple, either the Church teaches the truth, as Christ guaranteed, or it doesn't, which would make Christ a liar.
Tedassie: Where please? You are essentially saying the inspired word of God? inspired through who? (The Holyspirit) which was given to man is insufficient and as such is irrelevant in today's world! What then is the essence of the Bible being used as an authority of the Christian faith? What would then distinguish it as something distinct from man's ideology?
Good question but already answered. Our Lord Jesus Christ did not commission the bible to teach the gospel. Rather, he commissioned the Church and authorized it (her) to teach the truth. The Church with its (her) authority commissioned the bible as one of its (her) tools to teach the truth. Paul, in 1 Tim 3:14-15, writes to his Timothy, "Although I hope to come to you soon, I am writing you these things so that, if I am delayed, you will know how each one must conduct himself in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.
Christianity is not ideologies and doctrines! it's quite deep,my friend. It transcends any human philosophy and sophistication. No one knows it all,but the more we surrender our minds to the tutelage of the Holyspirit,our walk with God becomes clear. Now, every now and then a servant of God can receive [divine] revelations or inspiration about certain things of which may necessitate him or her putting it into writing so that it reaches out to people. This piece of writing could serve as a guide so to speak. However it does not mean it replaces or overrules the Bible entirely from it's PRIMARY place of spiritual guidance. No, rather it serves to consolidate as well as expatiate further the holy text to give clarity and insight to issues. That's why when you read such books(in between) you will often see a litany of biblical texts being referenced in relation to the subject matter discussed. By so doing, the author commits his/her integrity on the validity of his work being chiefly inspired by the word of God(However, this may not always be true. As anyone can just pull out Bible verses to back up their ideas, that doesn't mean such work is divinely inspired. Reason we have soo many sects of Christianity and what have you. However, Paul's declaration in Galatians 1:8,should always keep us in check.
Exactly. I agree. But the realization that the Church, not the bible was authorized to teach the truth. This follows that if the Church commissioned the bible, then there's no way the bible or the church would contradict each other if well understood.
It is also not in our place to add or subtract anything from the word of God,as the Bible speaks against it, here: Deuteronomy 4:2 New American Standard Bible (NASB) 2 You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.
Deuteronomy 12:32 New American Standard Bible (NASB) 32 “[a]Whatever I command you, you shall be careful to do; you shall not add to nor take away from it. Revelation 22:18 New American Standard Bible (NASB) 18 I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book;
You, like every other Pentecostal, is applying those verses wrongly. They are specific to the particular statements/books they were written in.
Tedassie: Where please? You are essentially saying the inspired word of God? inspired through who? (The Holyspirit) which was given to man is insufficient and as such is irrelevant in today's world! What then is the essence of the Bible being used as an authority of the Christian faith? What would then distinguish it as something distinct from man's ideology?
Good question but already answered. Our Lord Jesus Christ did not commission the bible to teach the gospel. Rather, he commissioned the Church and authorized it (her) to teach the truth. The Church with its (her) authority commissioned the bible as one of its (her) tools to teach the truth.
Paul, in 1 Tim 3:14-15, writes to his Timothy, "Although I hope to come to you soon, I am writing you these things so that, if I am delayed, you will know how each one must conduct himself in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.
Amalek attacked Israel in the wilderness, Israel retaliated, they prevailed, Israel won. Isn't that punishment enough ? But that wasn't enough. God had to destroy everyone of them. Men, women, children, babies, all living things. By the way, these weren't the people that attacked Israel, this was years later.
You don't call this punishment, it's genocide. plain and simple.
Isn't that punishment enough? This a good question. By whose standard do you gauge sin and punishment?
If you're an atheist, by what standard are you judging the God of the bible? Because if there's no God, there's no objective standard or morality; it's just your opinion. So for you to say the God of the bible is evil, what do you mean by evil? Why is genocide wrong if there's no God? You have to be the moral arbiter of the universe to be able to make such moral judgment. See, you can be an atheist and make a moral argument but such argument wouldn't be grounded if God does not exist. It would be a mere opinion.
Now, let's address the reality here of you using God to argue against God. If you admit here of having no such objective standard of morality and you're supposedly saying if the God of the bible is loving, why does he do these things in violation of his own laws? That also is a good question.
As for the Amalekites: See Exodus 17:8-16 and Deutronomy 25:17–19
Ok so you don't believe your god is the foundation and arbiter of an absolute morality system?
On the contrary, morality itself points to a moral giver. Absolute morality can only come from an absolute source. God is what people of faith call that source. If such standard doesn't exist beyond you and I, then it's purely reasonable to say we are the source our individual morality, which is another way of saying we have our opinions on what's right and wrong... and if that's the case, I don't see why you would infringe on someone else's (Hitler or Bin Laden for example) right to his/her opinion. You get the point?
Nodogragra4me: I don't think you know the Holy Spirit although you seem to be claiming it up and down. How many of the over 33,000 denominations claim what you claim - Holy Spirit? Meanwhile, evidence from the bible itself refutes all your claims.
Answer: I am not claiming to know neither are those your so called 33,000 denominations claiming anything. They, just like myself knows we know we carry the very presence of the teacher, The Holy Spirit. I never claimed I know the Holy Spirit. It is not something I have to keep under wrap for it would not be scriptural to do. Jesus regularly called attention to what he carried without apologise. You have to announce what you carry on the behalf of heaven.
Your Scripture passages: I have mentioned here before that knowing the scripture is not a function of the human intellect. It takes humility for the spirit to reveal what is actually in plane sight to anyone. You can have a PhD in philosophy and theology and still not see anything from the scripture.
If you had cared for guidance you would have noticed that the book of Thessalonians you cited in support of the extra biblical practices of the Catholic church never supported what you purport it had supported. ….. ”whether by speech or by letter." the information here simply tells you that both the written letter and their speech were one and the same. Whether the one they gave as letter or speech carried the same message.
Your second Scripture: You are to imitate me just as I have imitated Christ. What is the custom and tradition of Christ? Simple! It is written ...have ye not read? ... what saith the scripture? See: And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he…. Jesus?.... expounded(means to explain the written word) unto them in all the SCRIPTURES the things concerning himself. (AV, Luke 24:27)
Your third scripture : keep away from men like the pope who live an undisciplined life and same that is without scripture backings … What is biblical discipline? According to my pastors definition, it is simply the disciple's lifestyle. Paul said more than once "what saith the scripture?" when proving his doctrinal points. That is the tradition he was talking about.. The tradition of validating every word from the scripture like they learnt from Jesus, himself.
The tradition of the apostles was to ALWAYS show by the scripture that Christ was the LORD. God's tradition as practiced by Jesus and the apostles had support from the scripture. It never existed as an extraordinary additions to it. Acts 17:1-2 —In Thessalonica, Paul, “as his CUSTOM was,” went to the synagogue “and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures.”
There is no other way of checking the propagation of error but by the written word. The scripture is the only available tool backed by heaven for guiding against error within the body of Christians. You would readily agree with me that the only way for detecting error is by comparison against a known tried and perfect standard which is the Bible for one tradition can not be a standard for another. Example is your referring me to some ancient members of your church in trying to prove your point. The Scripture says the bereans search daily In the books of Acts 17:11 to see whether the word they receive had scriptural backing.
When paul warned us about the consequences of being wise in our own eyes because he already saw this consequence from the written word: 1Co 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is WRITTEN, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness
Proverbs 30:6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.
Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
Deuteronomy 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.
Angels in heaven comes tommen and only repeat the written word but a flesh and blood somewhere in his wisdom crafts something outside the scripture and you call it the tradition. Here: Daniel 10:21 But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth.
Revelation 22:7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book. 8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: (Angel telling John not to bow before him but your church says you should kneel before your Mary statue in prayer and still claim not to worship her) for I am thy fellow servant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book…. The BOOK…. THE WRITTEN WORD: worship God
Revelation 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
Therefore when you harp on TRADITION AND THE APOSTLES, I assure you that whatever was the custom or tradition amongst them was and is still in the scripture
@highlighted, Blatant falsehood!
1 Timothy 3:15 "...each one must conduct himself in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.
According to the bible, the Church (not the bible) is the pillar and foundation of truth. The Church, not the bible, has the authority to teach the absolute truth. So, if you're not clear about any verse in the bible, ask the Church for clarification because the bible came out of the Church. Christ commissioned the Church, the Church commissioned the the bible.
The Lord had me choose you to be king of his people, Israel. Now listen to this message from the Lord: 2 “When the Israelites were on their way out of Egypt, the nation of Amalek attacked them. I am the Lord All-Powerful, and now I am going to make Amalek pay!
3 “Go and attack the Amalekites! Destroy them and all their possessions. Don’t have any pity. Kill their men, women, children, and even their babies. Slaughter their cattle, sheep, camels, and donkeys.”
Saul even has pity more than God
I see your point. Punishment is a morally wrong/evil in your worldview. Am I right?
LoL! This sugar coating white wash does not fly at all. A permission is also a type of instruction but even if we decide to overlook that how does giving permission to evil establish that there is an absolute standard? If the god can give permission for evil then I do not see how the standard is an absolute one. As you so rightly pointed out an absolute standard means there is no possible scenario where breaking it is justified.
This isn't the only example of your god's actions clearly negating any so called absolute standard. So it means your god doesn't think much of absolute standards, doesn't it?
Permission is not instruction. Sorry, absolute standard of what? Maybe quote my post you're referring to, or you could rephrase your question.
Don't get it twisted, I did not say I was seeking eternal happiness from candy. What I said is, if I seek the ultimate satisfaction in a candy does that mean there is a candy god capable of fulfilling that desire because as your argument posits if an ultimate desire is capable of being satisfied there therefore exists a god capable of providing that satisfaction. My question to you follows your own logic so show me how I am wrong to reach such a conclusion while you are right to reach the same conclusion.
I think I see where you are having difficulty understanding. When you desire a candy, the satisfaction you're going to get will be limited to that which the candy can give. The candy is a product of a limited number of ingredients each of which is of course limited. Therefore, you cannot get an ultimate satisfaction from that candy because there's always some other candy made of different ingredients that offers different kind or even a higher satisfaction.
The candy as discussed above is a "good" but not ultimate good, because just like food, you'll eat and hunger again. Now when we speak of God, we mean the ultimate Good.. or Goodness itself. He is the Source of everything Good.
Try to listen, if you could, carefully to the short clip I posted much earlier "Why do we believe in God". By the second or third watch, you'll get the whole point. You'll probably get it the first time.
When you hear the word Church, what comes to your mind?
Denomination? Church building? The body (fellowship, brethren) of Christ?
Jesus established the Church of Christ. Simple!!! He is the Head and Foundation of Christianity. Jesus did not establish the Roman Catholic Church, or Anglican Church, or Methodist Church, or Apostolic Church. He established the Christian church. Just make sure that the practices of your denomination conforms to the practices and tenets of the Christian Church. Is that too hard to believe.
EXACTLY MY FRIEND, EXACTLY! Now, would you like to talk about the practices and tenets of the early Christian Church? You risk becoming Catholic if you honestly study it.
You said the Bible is not complete, and is not the only way. I laugh.
Jesus is the (only) Way, the (only) Truth, and the (only) Life. Is Jesus in the Bible? If yes, that then makes the Bible COMPLETE, and the only guide any GENUINE Christian ought to follow, with the help of the Holy Spirit of course.
Keep laughing.
The bible contains accounts of Jesus, but Jesus Himself is present in his glory in the Church until the end of time! He is the Head of the Body (the Church).
According to the bible, 1. the Church must be One in that all members are united in their belief, worship, sacraments, tradition, and leadership. 2. the Church is holy because Christ established it and continues to share His divine life (His grace) with its members. In turn, the Church continues the mission of Christ with each member striving to live a Christ-like life in accord with His teachings and with the help of His grace. 3. the Church is universal because it is destined to last for all time, and all the faithful on earth are united with the faithful in heaven and the souls in purgatory. The Greek term for "Universal" is katholikos (Catholic). 4. the Church is apostolic because Christ founded it upon the apostles, giving the authority to St. Peter, the first Pope, and the other apostles, the first bishops. This authority has been handed on to their successors as in the case of the choosing of St. Matthias to replace Judas.
Please don't mention me again. You are in a VERY dark place.
Nodogragra4me: Paul himself didn't meet with Christ but was a very capable hand in spreading the gospel because the TEACHER , the Holy Spirit, rested on him like it was in the other Apostles. You can only know God via the Holy Spirit who does the teaching after you have accepted Christ .. Peter said , they should accept Christ and be baptized so they can receive the free gift of the holy Spirit. .. you don't pay for the holy spirit through through prayer and fasting ... It is a gift to the willing hearted While replying you earlier I made mentioned of the new testament being letters to the new church on direction , correction and diaries of the Apostles The entire old testament was available. Jesus expounded unto them all that was written concerning by ALL the prophets ...both major and minor ...from the scripture.
If you pack the old testament and bind it together using a stapler with the letters personally written by the apostles and their diaries or records of the gospel while Jesus was alive , would that make your the author of those materials? If the Catholic church wrote the Bible we would not be going back and forth on Mary because they would have expressly written Jesus Christ into minor position and given Mary the centre page
The only way to preach the Bible is through the Spirit of God ... No other way. Bible college and seminaries will never deliver the spirit . It is personal encounter through personal search that does it.
They would know because the writings of Paul was already a reference material to all churches. Even if he,Timothy didn't make make to them they know what was the practice. You as a Catholic don't need your pope to conduct a mass , it is already a system you can go through ..even if the priest suddenly dies , many are there amongst the crowd of worshippers who can go through with the mass ...they already know how to conduct themselves in the house. The church are the saints ... They contain no truth unless as revealed by the Holy Spirit and the holy spirit has never contradicted the written word ...he speaks only the from the written word ..... Because it is the only weapon he has for doing his work ... Your personal opinion doesn't count before God ... It is his word that he promised would not fall to the ground not your opinion of his word
If you go through the entire old testament you will never meet any prophesy about Peter. Much more one that is fundamental like the establishment of God reign on the earth. Peter wasn't who Jesus Christ was addressing as the rock but the answer that Peter gave when he asked the disciples who they thought he was. It is that answer that is the piece of rock upon which every church desirous of exploit and heavens protection must be founded on.... Thou art the Christ...the saviour...if the church is founded on the saviour he will save her from every world interference
What was given to the apostles and by extension us is the keys?... I will give you the keys..... A house don't keep the key that opens it... It is with the operators of the house... He cant build the house on Peter and hand him the keys....no no.. Tell, the pope that is not possible.....not one but keys...hope you noticed it.... The keys are the secrets to the power sources of heaven...how to unlock them for earthly exploit
I don't need to know the character you entered their names here... They are not the Holy Spirit. They are neither the teacher not the examples
I don't think you know the Holy Spirit although you seem to be claiming it up and down. How many of the over 33,000 denominations claim what you claim - Holy Spirit? Meanwhile, evidence from the bible itself refutes all your claims.
2 Thessalonians 2:15 "Therefore, brothers, stand firm and cling to the traditions we taught you, whether by speech or by letter."
1 Corinthians 11:2 "You are to imitate me, just as I imitate Christ. Now I commend you for remembering me in everything and for maintaining the traditions, just as I passed them on to you."
2 Thessalonians 3:6 "Now we command you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, to keep away from any brother who leads an undisciplined life that is not in keeping with the tradition you received from us."
Matthew 16:18-19 "And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."
1 Timothy 3:15 "...each one must conduct himself in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.
According to the bible, the Church (not the bible) is the pillar and foundation of truth.
Nodogragra4me: I don't read the ancient , I study the Bible and read a lot of anointed books on same. All the examples of the Christian life is properly captured in the scripture so no other example is required. Peter, Paul and John never prayed through any of the fathers of the faith even though the scripture was available and they knew those fathers like Abraham , Moses , Isaiah, Elijah and their exploits very well
But the bible is ancient. And why would you read any other book outside the bible when you are a "bible alone" christian? Isn't that hypocritical?
1 Corinthians 11:2 "You are to imitate me, just as I imitate Christ. Now I commend you for remembering me in everything and for maintaining the traditions, just as I passed them on to you."
The traditions which Paul and the apostles delivered to the church were not the traditions of men, rather they were the doctrines which were inspired of God. Neither Paul nor any of the other apostles ever instructed people in person or through their letters to follow vain traditions of men, but rather they were to follow the commands and precepts as given to them from God. The pastor in the video dug deeper into Christianity and discovered there's more to it than the bible. It is the job of every pastor/teacher to properly hand down to those in his ministry the Biblical traditions of sound doctrine, godly living and conduct, and sound practice in the church.
Nodogragra4me: Firstly, you are amongst the negligible percentage of Catholics who circumstances have forced to reluctantly agreed that Christians here on earth are actually the saints not those in heaven. Your official CHURHC position is that it is those who have died and have received special recognition that is calibrated by your CHURHC .....or ranked.... Tansi is still at the level of Bleesed ...the has not attain full star general of a saint in your church ... Are those qualified to be called saints who are like your Mary , alternate power source to Jesus. Even those who help carry out public execution of so called heretics ended up as saints .. even this scallywag called Shekaru that runs the Boko gangs is a leaner in the acts of committing heinous crime against humanity.
Scripturally, saints is the name used to refer to God's people here on the earth when they still have flesh coverings for their spirit and soul. Anyone that is numbered by God while here on earth , as his own is a saint of God not of the Catholic church and they can pray intercessory prayer while here on the earth for humanity but ceases as soon as they die because When they die they return as spirits into heaven for God is only a Spirit but God of all flesh. Here are some examples from the scripture:
9 He will keep the feet of his saints, and the wicked shall be silent in darkness, because no man shall prevail by his own strength. (DRC, 1 Samuel 2:9).... Feet belongs to the flesh and wicked people are not in heaven to fight with saints
15 Saying: O Lord God of heaven and earth, behold their pride, and look on our low condition, and have regard to the face of thy saints, and shew that thou forsakest not them that trust on thee, and that thou humblest them that presume of themselves, and glory in their own
strength. (DRC, Judith 6:15)
5 For we are the children of saints, and we must not be joined together like heathens that know not God. (DRC, Tobit 8:5)..their fathers were God disciples
1 Unto the end; for the octave, a psalm for David: Save me, O Lord, for there is now no saint: truths are decayed from among the children of men. (DRC, Psalms 12:1)
24 And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth. (DRC, Revelation 18:24)
12 Here is the patience of the saints, who keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. (DRC, Revelation 14:12)
4 And the smoke of the incense of the prayers of the saints ascended up before God from the hand of the angel. (DRC, Revelation 8:4)
Is Jesus Christ dead? This Mumu question ought to be directed at your pope. To have your Mary answer your prayers whether at the same or respectively, she needs to be omnipresent. It is possible that your early pope's believe Jesus died kpatata on the cross hence Mary ascendency to the office of intercessory with a retinue of aides called saints to help her with the task ... Saint ubenedictus , pray for the pope to receive sense.
I don't know what circumstances you're talking about but you're wrong. Both us and our departed brethren who made it to heaven are saints. Saints on Earth possess in part what the saints in heaven possess in fullness. They have reached the destination that we saints on Earth, holy ones by virtue of the graces God gives us for the journey, are in hope striving to reach.
And you're wrong again, there's no alternate power to Jesus in the Church. The Catholic Church is against worship of any other God, unlike Protestants who promote self worship - essentially idolatry. They alone (the saints in heaven) possess sainthood in its fullness. So, it's fitting that the Catholic Church reserves the title of saint to those it has declared to be in heaven.
If you think Jesus recognises denomination, you have yourself a puzzle to solve. Superiority complex is deceitful. Of course you won't agree.
If you think Jesus did not establish a Church by himself, then I don't know why I should argue the bible with you.
It's clearly documented in the bible that He established a Church, gave it authority to teach all truth. We know from the bible that the church is the pillar and foundation of truth. We know from the bible that He and left the church with an absolute guarantee that he will be with it until the end of time....
The debate is which Church is that today? Unless Jesus himself lied, the Church would still be very much around. Now, tell me which church is that so we both could trace back and see if it's true.
Nodogragra4me: Re read all the scriptures you cited but very slowly.
The first book you cited says it was full of the prayers of the SAINTS... living people ... THEIR prayers... NOT THE ONE DONE BY A DEMON MARY on a world TOUR of your CHURHC BUT THE ACTUAL PRAYERS OF THE SAINTS ... LIVING CHRISTISNS ... HERE ON EARTH ... It IS THE PRAYERS of THE PEOPLE On THE EARTH
The second verse you cited says the angel was GIVEN... IT IS THE PROTOCOL THAT HE WAS OBSERVING.... IT IS NOT HIS CHOICE ... HE WAS GIVEN .... THEY ARE telling you now prayers are mixed for result ... He was GIVEN to mix with THE PRAYERS OF LIVING PEOPLE CALLED THE SAINTS ...NOT DEAD VAGABONDS acting on a pope instructions hoping to avoid purgatory. The PRAYERS OF THE SAINTS ...MOT THE PRAYES OF THE ANGELS BUT THE SAINTS PRAYED already to Jesus ... Compiled prayer being prepared for answers .... The prayer of a righteous man availeth much... Righteousness is actually believing or having faith... Abraham believed God and it was counted for him for righteousness..... Righteousness is accepting that nothing in you but just believing Jesus Christ and accepting the righteousness he freely offers you that makes you righteous .. you can't earn your righteousness otherwise Jesus would have not died for you
Your third verse: you can never know the mind of God with the intellect. It is the work of the holy spirit . Angels are ministering spirits not intercessory spirits. They minster results..,answers ... Remeber the angels and Daniel and the Persian prince .... The spiritual need of every child is met, supernaturally, by God because they know nothing. Until they come of age their nesds are met by their creator ..they are nothing but spiritual soldiers without any form of training ... Their lives depends on their angels until they come of age and are able soldiers through, first, baptsim ....john said he didn't know who the saviour was but he went back to Jerusalem baptising in the name of the father so he can announce him to the world ... baptsim announces you to the world that you have made your choice. Jesus was more than capable at the age of 12 but waited until 30 because baptism is your intiation into the Christian journey. He wanted to demonstrate it that it was not for babies
If you use babies for rituals or offend them, it is their angels that prays before God on their behalf until they are of age ....1 Peter 2:2 says desire the sincere milk of the word so you can grow therefore .... The same scripture says if a child remains a child he is no more than the slave in the house
A child is born but a son is given .. government...that is responsibility is on the shoulders of sons not child or children of God but sons of God.. You grow into sonship by understanding. It is not automatic in this kingdom of God ... It is through the desire of the word of God
The holy spirit has never told me that he established a church anywhere ...what I have been able to see is that Jesus gave the great commission to every born again Christian to go and make disciples of very nation and Paul did his utmost best using the means availabe to him. What he says to one he says to all ....
What an avid heretics you are! Where in your bible did you see 'living and dead saints'? You are failing your own rule of bible-alone. Why attribute to the bible what it did not say if not for ignorance?
Just to clear your ignorance, in the Christian sense, saints don't die, they go to LIVE with God.
Nodogragra4me: If you have any sense in you head you would have used it to interpreted what your YouTube video is about here on nairaland. I am not the only person interested in this our back and forth .. you can see that somebody is liking the contribution.. he or she is learning something or agreeing with contributions
The video is self explanatory. In case you haven't watched, it's about Deacon Alex Jones Jr., a former Pentecostal preacher whose dramatic conversion in the late 1990s led dozens of his Detroit-based congregation into the Catholic Church. While reading the Church fathers in preparation for a Bible study in March 1998, he made a startling discovery: that the Church of the ancient Christians was less like the one he was leading and more like something resembling a Church he’d never expected — namely, one that was “charismatic/liturgical, hierarchical, and Eucharistic-centered.” In other words, more Catholic.
Religion / Re: My Thoughts And Questions About Religion by 9inches(m): 6:38pm On Apr 26, 2019 
Is a programmer bound by the programs he creates? God is sovereign, the laws we know of were made for us for our own good, because only a creator knows his creations even more the creation know themselves. And if the the creator is good, then all that would come from him will be good, even if the creations see a snapshot of a whole plan and call it evil. Laws are meant to put things in a perfect order; God who is perfect therefore needs no law to operate as God. For example, the 5th Commandment says "thou shall not kill." It would be illogical if a God is bound by such law, unless he's not God the creator. Therefore, it's only right for a Creator to kill/destroy his creations at will because only that Creator sees every fault/malfunction that might impede on his other creations existence. That's why, when our loved ones die, we say God knows best, because he wants the good for us his children.
