babafemi1000:


Thanks for labelling me a skeptic.

All that's been done here is examine a popular charismatic belief in the light of scriptures (and not some other book) and it has been found wanting.

Scriptures abound that support speaking and praying in tongues. Scriptures do not support tongues being the only evidence that the holy ghost has fallen upon a believer (Acts 9:17-20) Paul did not speak in tongues when the holy ghost fell upon him (his baptism of the spirit) which means that, according to the flawed charismatic belief, Paul didn't have the holy ghost. However, we know from scriptures that he was full of the holy ghost and he exhibited gifts.

I find it curious how you guys say I should go and reread such and such scriptures when I point out certain flaws in your theories, with backing scriptures, like you expect that my eyes would finally be open to see what you see?

Nobody is less of a believer, or has less power of the holy ghost because they did not speak in tongues upon baptism of the spirit as of the day of pentecost.

Like I said, God would illuminate our hearts.

Explain prophecy and prophesy.

vooks:

They why do you claim there are errors?

Hahaha..Prof "They" is an error too.Are you in such a hurry to respond?

babafemi1000:
Some people say the evidence of receiving the holy ghost is to speak in tongues only as of the day of pentecost. They quote all the references in acts to support their claim.

Now let's look at Acts 19: 6

(Act 19:6) And when Paul had laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking in tongues and prophesying.

If their theory were true, then from this verse it would seem that there are now two initial evidences of receiving the holy ghost as opposed to only one evidence which they are always quick to mention: tongues and prophecy. Yet these guys do not mention prophecy! I am sure they haven't seen this one.

What's to stop one from saying now that "if you don't speak in tongues and also prophesy, you haven't received the holy ghost". This means that they also have not received the holy ghost all along because they only spoke in tongues (according to their claim) when they were baptised!

They say that there is a difference between the tongues spoken at pentecost (upon baptism of the holy ghost) and the gift of tongues in 1 Corinthians 12. From this flawed theory, one can also deduce that there's also a difference between the "prophesying" in this verse (Acts 19:6) and the gift of prophecy in 1 Corinthians 12. Shebi it too is evidence. Since they distinguish the tongues, ought not the prophecy bit to be distinguished?

What's all this? Is God a God of confusion?

The skeptic won't just learn. Pls do get the book skeptic guide to tongues. Google will be of tremendous help here.

Read Acts 2 PROPERLY and READ Acts 19 AGAIN.

vooks:

You can't point ANY errors, but heckling you can

No need to prof..An amateur can't correct a professor of scriptures.

babafemi1000:


Thanks for sparing me for some days man.. Lool.. I was only joking about the cardiac arrest thing though..

Secondly, I apologise for being a bit nasty by implying you're only experiencing an "emotional high". You seem like a great guy, you have the right to disagree, please don't be offended.

Thirdly, about 2 Tim 1: 5-7 which you quoted. It says:

KJV

5 When I call to remembrance the unfeigned faith that is in thee, which dwelt first in thy grandmother Lois, and thy mother Eunice; and I am persuaded that in thee also. 6 Wherefore (or "for this reason" or "therefore" ) I put thee in remembrance that thou stir up the gift of God, which is in thee by the putting on of my hands. 7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.


Reading from verse 5 one sees that he was referring to the gift similar to what his mother and grandmother had.

He received the gift when paul laid hands on him. This "gift of God" no way suggests that it's the gift of tongues, though he received the holy spirit nonetheless or a gift of the holy spirit.

I'm sure that God would illuminate (God is illuminati? ) our hearts, causing us to see the truth and receive it.

Let's call it quits since you do not agree with what I've shared.

ok

vooks:

And you can't point the errors. You are a petty hooligan cheering your amateur theologian buddy ABDULADINO. Google does not increase your IQ

The PROFESSOR OF THEOLOGY. I believe you saw that another party (Ubenedictus) agree with what i have been saying all along that Luther agrees with some point of Calvin's which had been consistent with all my posts so far both in this thread and the other one. 5solas was right that your posts are error ridden. You hardly make research, only to quarrel with folks that don't agree with you and throwing tantrums and obscenities on the forum.

The Lord gives..He doesn't takes.( John 10:10b).

Satan takes.( John 10:10a)

Job spoke ignorantly.

babafemi1000:


You sha wanna score cheap points! I dey feel your scope.

The holy spirit is in control, not you. You cannot invoke "speaking in tongues" at will. However he wanna express it through you. That's the bottomline. If you think you can invoke it at will, then you're saying that the Holy Ghost is subject to your will. The bible says otherwise. That's the whole point of this thread.

Go and keep experiencing your emotional high.

Goodnight.

If I open nairaland tomorrow and see another mention from you I may likely have a cardiac arrest! Lol

Na only you waka come?

Lol, you are wrong bro.. I had to leave you for some time not to get cardiac arrest. The words of our mouth are powerful, so be careful what you say.

Corncerning spiritual gifts i don't want you to be ignorant or uninformed.

My posts never said you invoke the gift of tongues, you are going to extremeties by saying i am getting emotionally high just because you don't agree with scripture.

Once you received the baptism of the Holy Spirit with the evidence of tongues you automatically flow in it. This is for your private devotion and is different from the divers kinds of tongues for prophecy when you are in meetings like i stated earlier. For the divers gifts of tongues it is initiated by the Holy Spirit as He wills, it doesn't come often on believers.

But for the devotional gift of tongues gotten after the baptism of the Holy Spirit, you STIR it up not invoke as you erroneously stated. This is what helps the prayer life of a believer to be effective.

Look at this scripture: 1 tim 1:6

"Wherefor i put thee in remembrance that thou STIR UP THE GIFT OF GOD which is in thee by the putting on of my hands".

Here Paul wouldn't have encouraged Timothy to stir up the gift of the Holy Spirit if it were not so. Timothy received the gift of the Holy Spirit by the laying on of hands of Paul just as the 12 disciples in Ephesus in Acts 19.

Shalom.

5solas:



This is more like it!
How does it square with this:

Hahahaha..The guy nailed his coffin without knowing it. I wonder how folks read their bibles.

5solas:

Goofing once again!
The wisdom he is referring to is the one stated below:
1 Cor. 2

You dey mind vooks...he is here just to win an arguement even if he is incorrect. I have stopped taking his posts seriously.

Ubenedictus:


hehehehe,

so your point is, once one has said the sinners prayer and believes, even if it was just once he his entire life, it doesn't matter what sins he commit thereafter or if he loses his faith, his one time confession is all that is needed to guarantee eternal salvation?

Nope, i am no advocate of easy-believism.

vooks:

Right after you walk me through James and why we should ask for a person
Some attributes of God are personified but that does not make them persons

Holy Spirit is a person

Wisdom of God vs Wisdom of men. Two kinds of widom....such wisdom does not come down from heaven..Who is the wisdom that came down from heaven.

Error and heresy breeds when you read a scripture in isolation rather than CONTEXT and you don't inteprete scripture with scripture..

Proverbs even reffered to the wisdom of God as a person( proverbs 8:22-31).

The onus is on you to give us your explanation on what 1 cor 2:7...is saying.

vooks:

Very brainy of you.
James says if anyone lacks 'a person', they should ask for 'a person' from the Father

James 1:5 (KJV)
If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

Yes, Except you are reffering to the person of the Holy Spirit as a force or an 'it' like your cohort.

Anyway explain for us the scripture he quoted and stop the fanciful antics.

malvisguy212:
5solas ask "were does the bible scripture teaches Predestination" and I provide the answer. I agree with your explanation because it was through christ we are called the children of God.

Romans 8:29-30, "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the IMAGE of his SON, that he might be the firstborn AMONG
MANY BRETHREN. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

Predestination or fore-ordination is what God did before the world began,
as He determined to save man from sin through the sacrifice of His own Son. Those who answer His call through the gospel experience the blessings of that plan now in Christ Jesus.(Romans 2:3,11)

Point is wisdom of God is a person not a character, a noun not an adjective.

JMAN05:


Explain ur first sentence. I dont understand.

Of course, there are "elects" in hell.

Scripture you quoted shows folks are not true believers. There is absolutely no scriptrue that shows the elect in hell.

malvisguy212:

God pre-determined, not the IDENTITY of the saved,but the CHARACTER of the saved.

1 Corinthians 2:7, "But WE speak the
WISDOM of God in a mystery,
even the hidden WISDOM, which
GOD ORDAINED BEFORE THE WORLD
UNTO OUR GLORY :"
You see, God pre-determined the character (wisdom) in this verse and not the identity.

Lol, sounds rational and appeal's to man's ability to save himself by character but you left out the CONTEXT. Christ is the IDENTITY here. He is the Word of God and was with God from the beginning( John 1:2). He is the wisdom of God and the Power of God(1 cor 1:24)...So you see the wisdom hidden before the world began, that God destined for our glory was actually about the PERSON OF JESUS CHRIST AND HIM CRUCIFIED that Paul was preaching and not the other way round.

Except you want to admit that the identity of Jesus Christ as God never came in the flesh.

vooks:
ABDULADINO,5solas
Could you please share with me on the fate of the stillborn or those who dies shortly after birth?
Are they equally condemned?

A human rationalization that is comforting to the flesh rather than God's own revelation. I won't take you serious since you deny original sin.

5solas:

Gladly waiting.

Me sef dey wait.

vooks:

Am asking why everyone is not saved yet Christ died for all. Is His blood inaccessible to some?

The arminius mocker...According to calvinism( am not one though)..Jesus Christ died for all the Father gave Him to save..next time do your home work properly.

babafemi1000:


You are allowed to remain ignorant. Keep "speaking in tongues", entertaining yourself and getting emotionally high, thinking the holy spirit is groaning for you.

Mind you, Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered

If it cannot be uttered, then what are you guys saying when you speak in tongues in so called private prayer?

Lol, i am not ignorant concerning spiritual gifts. ( 1 cor 12:1).

Try to read other translations of Romans 8:26...atleast you accused me the other time about ceasing..

The Spirit is not itself( Kjv error) but "Himself"...the greek translation in that verse said groanings which cannot be uttered in "articulate speech"... Articulate speech means your regular kind of speech.When we do not understand a particular verse in scripture we do not infer our private intepretations to it, rather we inteprete scripture with scripture to avoid error and heresy.

Compare Romans 8:26 with 1 cor14:14 AMP...."my Spirit( by the Holy Spirit within me) prays...

babafemi1000:


I understand you. You want to pray. And in tongues too. That's commendable. I like that you used "active participation". It's is indeed an active participation.

I also want to pray. And in tongues too. But it's important to get it right.

Now, I know from scriptures that no one (including yourself) can cause the holy spirit to move or fill them with any tongue or gift. They have to walk in the spirit and then wait on the Holy Ghost. This doesn't mean always praying in tongues. It means continually bearing fruits of the spirit. (Love, joy, peace, etc.)

Don't be adamant. Learn from scriptures and not personal experiences.

Lol, why mix it up. I am actually speaking from scriptures not experiences. The baptism of the Holy Spirit at new birth with "tongues" as evidence is different from divers gifts of tongues..I also flow in divers tongues but not often in meetings as the Spirit wills. That tongue is different from the devotional tongue i use in my closet..i thot other posters have shown you scriptures and explained it to you by now. You sir! Are the one adamant.
Also the fruit of the Spirit is not the same as the gifts of the Spirit. The corinthians came behind in no gifts yet they lack the fruit of the Spirit hence Paul epistle to correct their irregularities.
The fruit of the Spirit IS......not ARE ( Galatians 5:22).

vooks:

Amateur theologian,
It took you hours of googling to fish this flimsy excuse?
Now, think for a second.
1.Did everyone under the Law go to hell because all are sinners?

Irrelevant..one man sin condemned ALL. Romans 5:12.

Guess someone is not reading his bible properly.

I am still on point..Praying in the Spirit without ceasing is praying in an "unknown" tongue.

babafemi1000:


1) We're talking about speaking/praying in tongues here, whether in private prayer or public. That's what led us here. You're the one deviating or rather, being adamant. I said you cannot move the holy ghost by using faith to activate tongues. Your faith comes handy when he has willed it.

2) I thank God for different bible versions. I'm not afraid to use them. I have the Holy Ghost to help me sort out the wrong from the right and he does not disappoint. They help with certain explanations of verses in the KJV.

1 Thessalonians 5 :16-18 Rejoice always, Pray continually, this is God's will for you in christ Jesus.(NIV)

This is where I stop responding to you. I pray you have the courage to accept the truth.

Any translation you use still means a non stop life of prayer...The spirit is always willing to pray..it is the flesh that is weak...So i have to move myself to pray..it involves an active participation of myself with the Holy Spirit. Shalom.

babafemi1000:


1) No I'm not deviating. I'm right on track.

1 Cor 14: 26-33

Paul is laying down general guidelines for the use of gifts, not just prophecy. That he chose to use prophecy to make his point does not mean all other gifts are excluded. It's an analogy.

Prophecy is public ( for the church to be edified). Prayer is private (for you to be edified)..Clear distinctions. My prayer in my privacy doesn't cause confusion in the church nor does it disturb anyone...Jesus always goes to a solitary place to pray all night.

2) Pray without ceasing. Yes. Does it mean pray 24/7? No. Did Jesus pray 24/7? Did paul? Did peter? Did john? Hell to the no!

It means pray continually. "Continually" here means "every now and then"

Your opinion. Praying without ceasing means exactly what it said..KJV.

Except you have the greek version of what Paul meant.

JMAN05:


2Pet 2:20; 2tim 2:17, 18.

Folks are not "elect"..Are there any elect in HELL?

5solas:

Please tell us what Calvinist teaching you consider to be false.

"irresistible grace".. The first 3 points agree with pauline epistles.

5solas:

Please take time to study Calvinism. It is faithful to scripture at every turn. Indeed it is far more than ''five points''.
The five points enumerated are the points the Arminians took up with the doctrines of the reformers. Before Arminianism, Calvinism existed.

okay, i believe you are referring to salvation unto eternal life.

Scholar8200:

1.Perseverance is up to the believer.

2.Read 1John 1:8. The nature of SIN is different from the acts of sin.
3. Ananias and Sapphira never lost their salvation. Killing them was an act of mercy by God. Judas was never saved( John 6:70-71, 13:10-11).

4. Read again CONTEXT. PHIL 3:18 was talking about judaisers infiltrating the gentile church teaching that circumcision was a requirement for salvation.( Phil 3:2).

5. Jude 21 again was quoted out of context. Keeping yourself in God's love is diff from keeping your salvation. We keep ourselves in God's love by praying in the Holy Spirit.

6. Read Galatians 5 with your eyes open wide and understand what "fallen from grace" means.

7. Point is God's mercy triumph over judgement.

8. I never missed the context. It is Christ's righteousness that makes us Holy and white...."our own righteousness is as a filthy rag before Him"...We are overcomers because we put on Christ not the other way rounf...Holiness is not a total absolute perfection...it is through Christ we become Holy.

Concerning the book of life, you don't read one scripture and put your own private intepretation..Read all the entire scripture...because scripture inteprete scripture...Read Exodus 32:32, psalm 69:28, especially Rev 13:8.

JMAN05:


Yes. But if ur question is whether an "elect" can lose salvation. Yes is the answer.

Scripture pls.

Perseverance is up to the believer.

vooks:

Why is faith necessary in the first place?


Many beliefs today are popular because they appeal to our weakness rather than because they are biblical. Such beliefs include spiritual justifications for materialism, theological exemptions from suffering tribulation, and even justifications for not sharing our faith with others. The idea that someone who professes conversion will share eternal life even if they do not persevere as believers in Christ is another belief that is comforting—and dangerously~~~>Dr Craig Keener