vooks:

Stop misusing jargon you barely understand.
If God picks some to eternal life, it also means he chose the rest to eternal damnation. God refused to save them yet they are incapable of saving themselves. Not even Jesus dying 1000 times could save them!

God does not predetermine who gets saved, he predetermines the character of the saved

Character? Dont make me laff.Jacob,David,Solomon, Peter and Paul were men of notable character abi? Examples abound you can even add Rahab the harlot to the mix.

5solas:

Sadly, you don't understand what it means to be ordained unto eternal life.

sadly most of them come as clever operators saying "we will take this, but we won't take that!". The bible never in any way gives us such a concept of salvation. Jesus Christ is the Saviour. And as saviour He saves us because He has all the offices of SAVIOUR.

vooks:

Paul uses FAITH. I added precious, remove it and see if it makes a difference.
Walk me through this theory of yours of progressive not instant on of these fine days.

From 1 Timothy 4, we can tell what kind of faith they depart from by the context; they will follow doctrines of Devils.


DEPART FROM FAITH has become a thorn in the flesh. Sad

Lol. What is faith? Peter makes it plain that we are "chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father through the sanctifying work of the Spirit for obedience"(1 peter 1:2). Deal with that, then we can move on.

ayoku777:


The churches that Jesus warned in Revelation that if they don't overcome, their names will be blotted out of the book of life; were they not believers and elect too? Is it not by faith in Christ you become an elect of God?

Or you think someone can be a christian, a believer in Christ Jesus, and still not be an elect. Don't come up with heresis just to establish your false doctrine.

Every believer is an elect. So if Jesus warned believers that their names written in the book of life can be blotted out if they do not end as overcomers and keep the faith; then there is no such thing as "once saved always saved".

Names written in the book of life can be blotted out, according to Jesus. How much more prove do you need that salvation and eternal life can be lost other than that?

What does it mean for someones name to be written in the book of life? It means to have eternal life or be ordained unto eternal life.

Then what do you think is the implication of a name in the book of life being blotted out by Jesus? It means to lose eternal life.

And what did the bible say will happen to those whose names are not found in the book of life? They will be cast into the lake of fire.

This stern warning was given by Christ Himself to believers in the churches; members of His body; the elect of God according to grace through faith.

So what are you saying?

Shalom!

Revelations is way past your pay grade.Lol @heresies. All of the things i said are simple bible studies.Show me from scriptures just one elect of God in hell, maybe i will concede to your doctrine.

ayoku777:


The word "depart from" used in 1Tim 4v1 is the greek "aphistemi"; and it means, "to leave, to abandon, to get away from, to dissociate from"

It is the same word used in,

Luke 13v27 -But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me (aphistemi), all ye workers of iniquity.

And also here;

Hebrew 3v12 -Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from (aphistemi) the living God.

You see;

When you depart from the faith, it doesn't just mean your faith is wrecked or damaged or broken; it means you left the faith, you abandoned the faith -you became an unbeliever.

Let me ask you; Can you become an unbeliever and still remain a christian? Can you depart from the faith through which we are saved and still be saved?

Emphatically NO! You can't depart from the faith through which we are saved and still keep the salvation.

Those christians that the Holy Spirit said will depart from the faith in the last days definitely lost the salvation.

Shalom!

No need for greek and semantics. Can the elect's faith be overthrown? Yes from 1 Tim4. U guys quoted. Can the elect lose their salvation?Emphatically NO. Can any elect be in hell?Emphatically NO. Two diff things. The word "elect" means that God chose a person to eternal life before the world began.( 1 peter 1:2).So God knows the end from the beginning.

vooks:

Good
Your faith may be wrecked,which means you had the precious faith in the first place.

You used the word precious faith which is not instant but progessive. Read 1 peter.

vooks:
What are the risks of having your faith wrecked?

Why is it so important that the Spirit EXPRESSLY SPEAKETH about it?

Scripture is clear for christians to see.Paul warned timothy to ministerial faithfulness,lest he cost his hearers the truth and rigtheous living. It all boils down to the five fold (Eph 4:11-14).
Because i differ in view with the catholics on doctrinal stand i cannot categorically claim all of them lose their salvation or will end up in hell, likewise protestants,pentecostals etc.

It means there is a possibility of having your faith wrecked by false teachers,persecution or temptations.Hymenaeus and philetus overthrew the faith of some by teaching the resurrection had already come and gone.

vooks:

You are dithering.
What is DEPART FROM FAITH?

BUT God still knew those who were His, which is the real issue of eternal life anyway.(2 tim 2:15-19).

Kay17:


but wasn't there a bet between God and Satan, through which wanted to test Job's faithfulness?

Satan cannot attack without the consent of man. His chief main weapon till date is FEAR

Kay17:


That's the strangeness of the book of Job. Ordinarily we believe righteousness, paying tithes, being in a good sync with God grants us open doors, favours, good tidings. However, bad things happen to good people and the book of Job tries to answer that. The problem with you, is you ignore God's purpose of testing Job and blame Job like his friends did.

Repetitions. Job himself admitted the cause of his calamity was fear not me.

vooks:
Are you saying that had he not feared it would not have befallen him?

YES,Fear leads to torment. I already said that.A loophole satan exploited.

Kay17:


The story states, God ordered Satan to do so. God, for the purposes of the book of Job, is the total arbiter of all realms; both the spiritual and the physical. All causes within this realms descend from God and with his authority. Therefore these causes and Satan, are agents of God. The real cause is God while others are illusory because their causes are not efficient.

God is incapable of doing anything on earth without the consent and active participation of man.Like i still maintain when troubles and tragedies happen, it is not a judgment of God permitted in order to correct or teach us something.

vooks:
Too much verbiage. Answer this question from this verse;
Job 3:25 King James Version (KJV)
25 For the thing which I greatly feared is come upon me, and that which I was afraid of is come unto me.

Did Job's fear earn him his calamities?

Yes according to Job's testimony. For the calamity from God was a terror to me, and by reason of his majesty I was powerless.Job 31:23

vooks:

Facts
1. Job feared calamity
2. Calamities befell Job

Your conclusion from #1 and #2
3. Job's fear brought calamities

Vooks insists,
#3 is a faulty conclusion since we see calamities came from the heavenlies as Satan attempted to prove that Job's faithfulness to God was predicated on his blessings

Comprende?

Yawn..Going in circles with you is really burdensome and boring... We decipher and understand OT in the light of the new.. The devil chief ministry is to kill, steal and destroy and his weapons are fear , intimidation,confusion etc etc... In all OT the devil was never exposed until Jesus showed up.

Let’s get this clear from the start. Tragedy, troubles and terror are direct attacks of Satan, whose total focus is to steal, kill, and destroy any way he can (John 10:10). Getting us to question these things and question the love of God like you and an atheist are insinuating is just part of Satan’s plan to discourage, defeat and torment. When troubles and tragedies happen, it is not a judgment of God permitted in order to correct or teach us something. A new testament believer has the Holy Spirit so he has a more better knowledge, a better convenant and better understanding of who God is and how He operates. Comprende?

vooks:

You are confused.
I said that 'the thing that I feared most' is not what caused Job's calamities. This verse is misquoted by WOFers to prove that fear can cause calamities just as Job's. This is a falsehood

Ok, no need to resort to insult. I am not confused. I am fully persuaded that Job fears was the troubles that befell him which was clearly SPELT OUT in Job 3:26....Cheers.

vooks:

Ever heard of 'fears' of God? Paul is listing his struggles and he sneaks in 'fears of God'?

You made a false assertion that Job fear was never mentioned and i said it was but in this case a reverence for God.( Job 1:9).

Point is Job's fears had nothing to do with what befell him contrary to your assertion by throwing that verse around

You err not knowing the scripture. Job feared trouble or calamity( Job3:25-26).

A chief reason why he had to sacrifice continually to God after his sons had a feast thinking they had sinned( Job 1:5).

Truth be told Job alluded his riches to his own righteousness rather than God's grace and favour.

Fear was mentioned but in this case it was a reverence for God.Go back and read the book of Job.

vooks:

Job's woes were unrelated to his fears, in fact in heaven, his fears were never mentioned by either God or Satan. You are magnifying the impact of his fears. Paul had fears too

2 Corinthians 7:5 King James Version (KJV)
5 For, when we were come into Macedonia, our flesh had no rest, but we were troubled on every side; without were fightings, within were fears.

This particular verse has been immortalized in the Just As I Am hymn btw. The point is you (Pentecostals/WOF) have magnified fear into something it is not. Believers fear fearing more than they trust in Jesus

You are delving into irrelevance here. I am not WOF/pentecoastal. And even at that scriptures record 365 FEAR NOT for a reason, both in OT and NT not just to fill the pages of the book. God is the author of Faith. Where doubts, fears and confusion sets in satan holds sway. You may be afraid sometimes but the bible never encourages anyone to stay in fear. These things are written for our learning.

Kay17:


Besides it was not Job's lack of faith that caused his sufferings. God did.

God did not caused the suffering of Job. Satan did and God allowed it. Job's unfounded fears led to his demise.

Kay17:


Do you remember the accusations Job's friends made against him? If you did, you would know you are replicating their accusations.

Lol, i am not. I am just telling you what the scriptures says.For the thing that I fear comes upon me, and what I dread befalls me. ...Job 3:25 KJV - Job said it with his own mouth not his friends nor me.

You cannot please God without faith. Faith is the absence of fear.

Kay17:


Did Job have the choice to select the State of his well-being?! No he did not.

Job chose fear not faith.Without faith it is impossible to please God.

Kay17:


It does not say God does not likewise send evil from above. In Job, God sends both good and evil.

That book is deep. I don't agree God sends evil. God is good not evil. Man has a choice.

MuttleyLaff:

Babagnoni..your writes up are unmistakable.

I guess majority of major pentecoastal churches in nigeria should be labelled a cult if we are to follow the OP definition of a cult. They hero worship their leaders and most of what the Op listed are practised by some of these churches not only in CE.

Though i dont subscribe to a one man show. I believe ministry should not be based on the gifts of a single man. True ministry entails many people working together to accomplish one goal- fufilling the ministry of Christ.

Sons are arising, i believe the 21st century church is breaking away from the old order of creating stars like Moses and functioning as a body not as individuals. But in doing so we need to be careful of execessive criticism and mudslinging at christians who differ in views and doctrines.

The Holy Spirit is never an author of confusion. We know who the cults are, those who deny the deity of Christ...Scriptures are clear on who the anti-christ is. My two kobo contribution.

johnydon22:


A very fvcking question... Yes or No.. and you are answering a question with another question..

IS HE A MALE?... just YES OR NO... simple...

God is Spirit, No one knows whether He is male or female except Jesus. Since Jesus refers to Him AS FATHER we can safely deduce He is male.

Insightful post Op,

DrummaBoy: Bidam tells us that Samuel collected tithes.



Simple question requiring a simple answer, thank you.

Unlike you, i don't need to go to irrelevancies to prove a point.

God expresses His promise in I Samuel 2: 35 - "And I will raise me up a faithful priest."

So how do priest of Old minister before the Lord in shiloh? was Samuel a priest of God? yes or no?

Welcome mynd 44, Bidam online. please could you help unban me,

i was unceremoniously kicked out because of tithes.

An unbanning of my monikker will help.Thanks.

https://www.nairaland.com/1538927/tithe-obligated-keep-whole-law/13#20345928

[quote author=trustman]

Talking about shadows, was it only sacrifices that were a SHADOW of what is to come?

YES.

See what Hebrews 10:1 says - "The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship."

Does God want you to obey the reality rather than the shadow?

The law here refers to ceremonial laws, Read Hebrews in context, you will understand that especially verse 3.The very fact that Jesus substituted unleavened bread and wine for the passover lamb only, and not for the temporary offerings, is absolute proof that the ceremonial old testament offerings are not binding today!-but that the passover is binding! Paul says (Gal. 3: 19) these temporary rituals and sacrifices were “added because of transgression”-because God’s spiritual law was being broken-until Christ should come. They foreshadowed the sacrifices of Christ and were a “reminder of sin” to teach thc people the need of the Messiah who would pay the penalty of human transgression (Hebrews 10:3).

[quote author=trustman]

You also said these:
A vital principle to remember concerning the Old and New Covenants is that what did not originate with the Old Covenant did not die with it. ( You of all people is guilty of this error. )

Even at that the judaizers were advocating for Moses custom of circumcision for salvation, no where did it mention Abraham.

I then went on to show you how 2 things - family priesthood & circumcision - that predated the law are no longer applicable or compulsory for the Christian.

You did not show me nada! Rather you misquoted, misrepresented and misinterpreted galatians expecting me to swallow your interpretations. As for family priesthood, this is the first time you wrote this word.Check our conversations,BTW are you not a priest under the new?,do you not represent your family before God? Why should it not be compulsory? As for circumcision, you have not answered my question whether you will circumcise your first son,Are you circumcised?, Why should Christians be exempted from the Abrahamic covenant?

A little education for you here - anyone can still undertake circumcision, but anyone who decides not to be circumcised is not estrange from God.Pre-law or Under the law this was not so.

Under the law the person is estranged from God. CAN YOU BACK UP YOUR STATEMENT WITH SCRIPTURES?

And this referred to PHYSICAL CIRCUMCISION even though God would later make reference to circumcision of the heart.

I already quoted it to you.

On the family priesthood you had no answer.

Because there is no where in our conversation where you stated such.

This was to debunk your statement that 'what did not originate with the Old Covenant did not die with it. By the way, what about sabbath day observance, hope you know it predated the law? When it came to the New Covenant what happened?

You did not debunk it..rather you confirmed it.

On the issue of sabbath have you noticed that all the 10 commandments except the 4th commandment regarding the Sabbath are reaffirmed in the New Testament? (Rom.13:8-10; Eph.6:1-2; James 5:12; 1 Jhn.5:21) Why did God leave the 4th commandment out if He intended for the Church to follow it? If God wanted the Church under the New Covenant to do certain things, He would certainly make it known to us. This is true of tithing, which the Lord Jesus did not leave out, because He wanted the Church to continue the practice and to receive the promise attached to it.

It was obvious to the judaizers that the Mosaic Law replaced anything before it. So their reference to what was subsisting at their time was only normal. As at their time the Mosaic Law was ALL that God expected them to follow; nothing else. So if Abraham was not mentioned it was because the Law was the 'Standing Order' as at their time not Abraham's system.

You have no point here. The mosaic law was given directly by God to Moses on the mount.Majority are new laws except tithing,circumcision and observance of sabbath which you stated. One thing you should also note is that You don't confuse covenants with laws,they are two different things. The laws are rules contained in covenant(agreement) between God and his people,The Law is not Covenant and the Law can be changed and or fulfilled. The Abrahamic covenant is foundational to all of Scripture. It is the key to both the Old and New Testaments and is foundational to the whole program of redemption. All subsequent revelation is the outworking of this covenant. This
covenant, and the subsequent covenant framework, is the key to understanding Scripture.

Colossians 2: 8-11 – See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces of this world rather than on Christ.
For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, and in Christ you have been brought to fullness. He is the head over every power and authority.
In him you were also circumcised with a

You are quoting an OUT OF CONTEXT scripture that has no basis to the discuss at hand. I believe ALL(both OT& NT) scripture as inspired by God including the one you quoted and is profitable for doctrines(teachings) reproof,corrections and instructions unto righteousness.Do You?

[quote author=Zikkyy]

There was no need to change the tithe. It belonged to the levites as an inheritance. The tithe practice went with them (levites), that was why the apostles never bothered to teach tithe.

bidam speaking was banned, don't know why..had to use a friends id.. Maybe because una dey vex say una no pay dec..tithes. . Back to topic.. Melchizedek collects the tithes. He is not a levite.Samuel collects tithes, yet he wasn't a levites..The levites themselves pay tithes..so to say the practice has gone with them is falsehood, no where did the scripture says that. The bolded is also a lie. Paul the Apostle taught tithes. Jesus the Apostle and High priest( Heb 3) taught tithe.

That is not to say you cannot practice the pastoral version of tithe today. Just note that you are not paying God's tithe, that's all.

Na you coin that version na..No be the same bible wey pastors dey use you dey use? God's tithe is Jesus's tithe. We pay to Jesus, not to men.

so we can also say even Jesus paid tithe to Melchizedek na, abi?

Are you blind? Jesus says before Abraham was I AM.

Tithe (i.e. the giving of a tenth or 10% in ya language) was never abolished. what been abolish is God's tithe. you can still practice ya personal/pastoral version of tithe, no wahala

God's tithe was never abolished sir! Show me from scripture where it was written then i rest my case.

Paul settles the matter in verse 8. He states plainly that Christ "receiveth them (the tithes) of whom it is witnessed that He liveth." Who are the witnesses that Christ is alive? Christians! As His witnesses, Christians give tithes to Jesus. Paul could not make it any plainer!