waldigit:


First, I don't know the source of your history so I can say anything about its credibility, but then I have this to say: how come it then took so long for the gospel to get to us here in southern hemisphere?
Second, you. Said he didn't deviate because the Holy Spirit chose him, so then Judas, Demas, Ananiaj and Saphirer etc were not chosen by Holy Spirit, beloved let us always wait on Holy Spirit to lead before jump on to conclusion on spiritual matters. May God Help us

Then as a bible student you need to update yourself in church history. Paul was beheaded by Nero,Christians were fed to the lions..Peter was hung upside down.. John was thrown in a boiling pot of oil....all these are FACTS not recorded in scriptures but that is not to say they never happened.

babafemi1000:


Here is where you are wrong. No man can initiate or activate the moving of the spirit. We are to be subject to him and not he us.

If you initiate it, beware, it is not from God.

Throughout scriptures, the lord has moved in clear patterns, whenever he wanted to do something through a man.

"And the word of the lord came to jeremiah, isaiah, etc". "The Holy Ghost came upon so and so.., etc". That's how God moves or chose to move.

If you start on your own, then I guarantee you that it's not the Holy Ghost.

The prophets of old had to wait for God to move, they never for once thought they could just prophesy anytime they felt like it. Same applies to us and to various gifts.

Jeremiah 42: 7 And after ten days, the word of the lord came unto jeremiah. He waited.

2 Peter 1: 20-21 But holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost..

This is what God had to say concerning those who tried to prophesy before receiving word from him:

Jeremiah 14: 14 The prophets prophesy lies in my name: I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spake unto them: they prophesy unto you a false vision and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their heart

Clear distinction between prayer and prophesy. You are deviating. I was talking about PRAYER. Believers are encouraged to pray without ceasing( 1 thess 5:7).

I take this verse literally..Pls do tell..how do you pray non stop?

vooks:

You are playing dumb.
Explain to me that verse, and more importantly the fate of your great great great great grandfather who never heard about Sinai nor Calvary


God is no respecter of persons and he treats all alike. That is the point you can't confront; equality of all before God


Salvation is 110% a gift. Nobody can boast nor complain after rejecting it seeing it is offered to ALL.


Yes, for mankind...ALL and not just a few Elect.


You can't shake off indoctrination over a forum. It takes prayers


The very purpose he was created for


IN Christ. Only IN Christ do you find Election. Christ is the condition for election


Amateur theologians think commentaries and new vocabularies make scholars. Pathetic

Nonsense. What was His will when he instructed Adam not to eat the fruit?

True

Mmmh

The all-knowing who cannot know all things.

The skeptic doesn't get it.. The Romans 2:12 he quoted shows the phrase "all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law" referring to anybody who has ever sinned at any time...and those WHO SIN without the law will perish...it never said they are saved...One wonders where he got the concept of salvation from that passage...since Paul had made it clear ALL HAVE SINNED..In other words, if you choose to live under the law you will be condemned by it! Personally i prefer living under the grace of God given through faith in Jesus Christ.

The eternal security skeptics are welcome to live under the law if they want.

babafemi1000:


You're right again.

But God moves first. He initiated it. Then you show your faith in him by moving. In the example you gave above, God moved first (through paul), then the cripple acted/moved based on faith.

God is not under any obligation to back one up if they move without consulting him. So saying "God just had to move" doesn't hold sway.

My point is i don't have to feel a stirring to pray in the Spirit before i burst forth in tongues...am talking about after you have received the gift..Just like Paul emphasised to pray without ceasing .you can't pray without ceasing using english vocabulary or native language.

But you can with tongues, it refreshes, builds up,edifies and you don't get tired easily..i don't have to wait for the Spirit to move me to pray..I move the Spirit. I may start in the flesh but definitely i will end up in the Spirit.

Scholar8200:
Then explain why Jesus and the Apostles called men to repent and believe the Gospel. Also explain why Jesus said He that believes shall be saved and he that believes not shall be damned. Not forgetting the passage 2 Peter 1:10
So, dear brothers and sisters, work hard to prove that you really are among those God has called and chosen. Do these things, and you will never fall away.
The work there mentioned is a work of faith! else that faith is vain/dead!

God preserves His elect, but He does not make them persevere in faith. Faith may be weak and even lost at times by the elect, yet God is faithful.His faith is the Basis of their preservation..i have given you examples of Abraham, Lot, samson and Paul..Like someone earlier told you it is not by quoting chunk of scriptures. It is by understanding it. To say sin will take away eternal life is a satanic lie that is no where found in scriptures. There is the definite possiblity of God's elect backsliding into sin and having their faith overthrown but not losing eternal life.

without our initial and persevering faith, He can do nothing in/for us as regards salvation:

Mark 6:5
And because of their unbelief, he couldn't do any miracles among them except to place his hands on a few sick people and heal them.

Likewise the miracle of the New Birth can only be revealed and preserved in us by Faith. Remember Jesus kept saying," thy faith has saved thee"

1 Peter 1:5
5 who through faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.

Both are needed if we will be preserved. The One is constant because God never changes, the other (highlighted red) must be renewed daily because man being a free moral agent will not be kept against his will.

Christ strengthens me while I cleave to Him by faith! Paul also said to some of his converts, "you are fallen from grace" and to others, "by faith you stand" and to another group, " let him that thinks he stands TAKE HEED lest he FALL" meaning he realised that we had a role of faith to play in all diligence!

Still mixing Law and grace. The believer is urged to serve NOT to keep salvation, because it is a secure possession as a GIFT from God( 2 cor 5:14). To fall away is not to fall from salvation but from accurate bible doctrine. Faith in your faith is more profane( Romans 9:15-16).
Fallen from grace isn't talking about earning or maintaining your salvation through some conformity of the Law. Paul makes it clear in Galatians 5:4 that those who seek to be justified by the Law have "fallen from grace" and have been severed from Christ. You better trust God's promises and believe that Jesus died for all your sins, regardless of YOUR ABILITY to live up to the standards of the Law.

As regards the OT saints, as far back as the time of Moses here is what God said:

Exodus 32:33
33 The Lord replied to Moses, “Whoever has sinned against me I will blot out of my book.

Meaning his name was there before it was blotted out!

Then Moses would have been in hell then since he disobeyed God and couldn't enter the land of promise.Not forgeting he told Moses that i would have mercy on whom i havee mercy and i will have compassion on whom i have compassion( Exodus 33:19) re echoed by Paul in the NT( Romans 9:15-16) It does not, therefore DEPENDS ON MAN'S DESIRE OR EFFORT, but on God's mercy.

Jesus voiced the same thing in Revelation 3:4,5 regarding those in Sardis who were living holy lives that He would not blot out their names:

4Yet you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their clothes. They will walk with me, dressed in white, for they are worthy.

5 The one who is victorious will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out the name of that person from the book of life, but will acknowledge that name before my Father and his angels.

Implying that if they fail to continue that way, their names will be blotted out!!!

Jesus never said he would blot out the names of those who fall... He said OVERCOME...we are overcomers and have been given authority to "overcome all the power of the enemy.

babafemi1000:


You're right abduladino.

I have not said anything to the contrary and have maintained a particular stance since the inception of this thread.

Note though, that no matter how much faith you have/ exhibit, if God doesn't move you, you can't use faith to move yourself.

You can believe God to move you by moving... A good example is the cripple in lystra who had faith to be healed. He acted when Paul called out to Him, God had to move because he obeyed Paul and moved.

An2elect2:


Ok dear.

Though I am not a Calvinist myself, i found most of its points are consistent with the scripture. However, will defend my faith in the name of Christ rather than Calvin/calvinism, because i was taught by Christ Himself.

True..Let God's word be true and every man's be false.

Scholar8200:
And what was the purpose of the command to give all diligence to make your calling and election sure in 2 Peter 1:10?

Lol, open your eyes. That scripture is not talking about conditional salvation based upon man using inherent ability to perform conditions for it. Typical arminianism.

The Holy Spirit's work in applying salvation through regeneration is effectual and sure, for without Him we can do nothing.

Paul was the chief of sinners,God apprehended him and he never lost his salvation..his famous mantraa was " I can do ALL things through CHRIST WHO STRENGHTENS ME" ( phil 4:13).

Time will fail to mention Abraham who lied that his wife was his sister, he never lost his salvation.

Samson the fornicator did not miss it.

Lot the barren without works didn't miss it to...

All these few examples were preserved by the grace of God and His faithfulness...not theirs..many more examples abound in scriptures...

waldigit:



Salvation is a process. One may not necessarily pass through it sequentially as in the case you cited, but for you to be stable in faith it is crucial you cover all the process stages.
Giving your life to Christ is a stage in the process, getting baptised with water another, getting baptised with holy Ghost another and so on. All stages are crucial for the purpose of ensuring that we grow, stay and be stable in faith.
Two example comes in handy here: the thief at the right hand of Jesus made it to heaven at the level of regeneration only. But because he died immediately after that stage he did not need other advanced stages in the process of salvation.
Also the Ethiopia eunuch in act ch 8 was baptised by philip and left but nothing was heard about him again. Most likely he deviate later because of no follow up to complete the process.
If you omit or fail to aspire to complete salvation process it shall become a weakness for you which the enemy can you to steal your faith from you.
May the Holy Spirit continue to teach us. Amen

The ethiopian eunuch did not deviate. History records the regions of ethiopia was on fire because of his evangelism. He was the catalyst God used to reach that gentile nation. The Holy Spirit wouldn't have instructed philip to join his chariots if it were not so. God doesn't operate in guesses, He operates by the predeterminate counsel of His will.

babafemi1000:


Tongues is tongues. You can either use to edify the body of christ, if there's an interpreter, or you can use it in prayer to God. Whichever the case, never forget that it's the holy spirit who gives/initiates utterance.

Yes the Holy Spirit gives the utterance, but we act on faith. It is not by feelings, experiences or having goose bumps all over you. It gives room to flesh. The Holy Spirit is in you already...The just shall live by faith.

Scholar8200:
And such denial is not necessarily verbal but can be seen in works! See Titus 1:16 and 2 Timothy 3:5

The elect cannot be lost nor separated from the purpose of God in salvation( John 6:38-39, Romans 8:28-39).

An2elect2:
Calvinism is more accurate of course. Arminianism is a damnable heresy.

My dear neither is. Since we deny freewill and teach God is sovereign in salvation by election and predestination, we are often accused of being calvinists.

JMAN05:
It is sad that someone can believe that an "elect" can't lose his calling.

Are there any elect in hell?

vooks:

Romans 2:12 (KJV)
For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law

Where is the salvation here?Jesus said He is the way the truth and the life, no man can access the Father except through Him. So can you quote any scripture that says there is salvation outside the Law? Who are those gentile folks that were SAVED during the Law?

Acts 10:34-35 (KJV)
Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: 35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him
Not respecting persons means He subjects them to the same treatment

Cornelius salvation was not dependent on his works, try another yarn.

Eph 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. (NKJ)

Amateur exegesis. Lucifer too is in Christ because he was created by God

The lamb slain from the foundation of the world was for mankind not angels.

The Body of Christ is the Elect. Join the Body and you are Elect. The conditions for Election were set before the foundation, just as Christ was slain before the foundation

I can empathize with your inadequacies and your inability to explain (Eph 1:3-6; II Tim 1:9).

Serve his brother

Serve his brother for what purpose.

What was prepared in advance is the good works not the doers cheesy

The catch is created in Christ for without Him we can do nothing.

God predestination the Body of Christ, not handpicking some lucky Elite believers

Take note of the aorist tenses. neglect at your peril.

Be wise. God preparing places for some is not handpicking some lucky any more than preparing hell for Satan and his angels is CAUSING Satan to rebel
Matthew 25:41 (KJV)
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels

In any case, God's knowledge of future events is not the same as orchestrating them. One can say God foreknew Adam's fall. It is another matter to charge Him with causing it on this basis cool

The point is that the will of God will be done either way.God is all-knowing and all-powerful. He knows what we will do because he knows all things. He cannot not know all things.

vooks:

God gave opportunities to ALL


By saying it's no determinant I mean there is salvation outside the Law just as there is condemnation. What do you think happens to those who never heard of Torah?


The most important thing is there is salvation outside the Law, and I don't mean those who lived before the Law, I mean those who lived during the Law but outside Israel

Jesus said He is the way the truth and the life, no man can access the Father except through Him. So can you quote any scripture that says there is salvation outside the Law? Who are those gentile folks that were SAVED during the Law? An example will help me grasp your point.

God is no respecter of persons. If he respects some persons over others, then Peter is clearly deluded
Acts 10:34-35 (KJV)
Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: 35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him
You need to read this verse severally and let the truth sink; God has no favorites NOW

Peter meant the gentiles, you also need to read the Pauline epistles severally so the truth can sink in too. Cornelius was the catalyst God used to launch His salvation purposes to gentile nations which Paul later strongly walked in. Peter never had any insight into this mystery. It was Paul. In fact it was a huge challenge for Peter to move outside his culture,tradition and mindset in order to reach a gentile hence the exclamation you quoted indeed God is no respecter of Jews. Hear Paul when the Jews were spoiling his work to gentile nations.

“ Are they Hebrews? so am I. Are they Israelites? so am I. Are they the seed of Abraham? so am I.” (2 Corinthians 11:22 AV)



Christ is “the firstborn over all creation because by Him everything was created.” Christ is supreme over all creation because he created all things, so it is not out of place to say the OT saints i quoted earlier were IN Christ. This is election by grace.

The point remains...election is corporate and conditional not arbitrary and individual. Join Christ and you are Elect, stay outside and you are a reprobate

Election is unconditional.God elected some men before the world began (Eph 1:3-6; II Tim 1:9). Your faith, baptism, or any good works are the evidence and result of salvation, not conditions for it.Justification, the forgiveness of sins, and eternal life are by the obedience of one – Jesus Christ.

God preferring Jacob over Essau was simply for rolling out His plans. He never condemned one to hell while saving the other. Just like He made Paul an apostle to the Gentiles and Peter to the Jews

So what was the role of Esau? or what plans God had for him?

lemme cite some scripture to convince you the more.

For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. (Ephesians 2:10)


He predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will-- (Ephesians 1:5)


also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, (Ephesians 1:11)

Hear what Jesus even told his disciples on the foreknowledge of the Father.

Jesus said to them, "You will indeed drink from my cup, but to sit at my right or left is not for me to grant. These places belong to those for whom they have been prepared by my Father." (Matthew 20:23)

vooks:

Like I told you about Israel, God still saved many outside Israel. So Israel election was not the determinant of eternity before Calvary.
Romans 2:12 King James Version (KJV)
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

God saved few when Israel wasn't born from Noah to Abraham.An example of the MANY that God saved would help me get your point.
Jesus came from that lineage( Jews) to say it wasn't a determinant is to go against scriptures.

So there was salvation and damnation OUTSIDE Israel. Very important you note that.

Those outside the covenant of Israel were still judged by the motives of their heart( Romans 2:14).. Example i gave was Abraham.So who put those laws in their heart?

Ephesians 1:4 King James Version (KJV)
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

The MOST important thing in this verse is IN HIM. God chooses those who are IN Christ. It is being IN Christ that makes me Elect, and not Election that makes me IN Christ.

The Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world. God is no respecter of chronological time.He does things by the predeterminate counsel of His will. Noah,Abraham, Moses,prostitute Rahab,Samson, Jephthah, David, Samuel and all the patriachs and prophets were ALL IN CHRIST before He came. This is election by Grace and Jeremiah boldly declared it that before He was formed God CHOSE him and SET HIM APART.( Jer 1:5).

This is why all believers are called Elect regardless of whether they will fall away the next minute. IN CHRIST we are chosen.

Let me explain it further by a simple example. When Herod ordered a genocide in Matthew 2:16,he specified the age,gender and area under which it was to be carried. If a child 'qualified',they were killed, and this would include 'stray' kids like Jesus (he just happened to be born in Bethlehem but his parents were from Galilee-Luke 1:26) Herod did not pick names and identities of his victims. Likewise, before the foundation of the earth God elects to favour a group with one condition; they MUST be IN Christ.

Herod is a type of satan, the analogy doesn't follow by equating what he does with what God does.God's wisdom is different from devilish wisdom.

So you always have a group/body corporate called Elect not individuals. The body Of Christ is the Elect. It is by being part of the body that we enjoy sanctification,justification.......

You readily admit that Jesus died to save ALL and not a few. Anybody accepting Him joins His Body and thus becomes Elect. Those who don't are reprobates.

Care to explain why God loved Jacob and hated Esau before any of them had done anything good or bad? Is God unjust? And why a specific number of 144000 from all the tribes of Israel in revelation ?

babafemi1000:


Okay lemme say this. I'm not well versed in kenneth hagin's teaching on the subject. I'm just using scriptures to support what I've posted so far.

May I ask what kenneth hagin teaches that you seem to agree with?

Good, atleast you are honest here.

Hagin was a young denominational baptist preacher who never believed that all believers should speak in tongues just as you here. It was the Holy Spirit that enlightened him and taught him from scriptures that tongues as ministry gifts is different from the devotional gift of tongues you get at initial baptism of the Holy Spirit.All believers baptised in the Holy Spirit have tongues as EVDIENCE.

babafemi1000:


Abduladino! Wow this name sounds like you wanna be ronaldinho..

Lol, just a username. On the contrary i wanna be like Jesus.

Please I'd like you to carefully read through the thread please, points have been made that refutes wrong teaching especially that "you must speak in tongues immediately when you receive the holy ghost"

Scriptures have been quoted and I'm sure you won't be lost when you read them.

I have and so far i haven't seen any concrete explanation from you as to why hagin's teaching is erroneous. You could do well to paste your explanations here for me to see and comprehend.

vooks:


My friend,
Israel election does your theory more harm than good. How so?
Outside Israel, outside the Law, God judges the nations WITHOUT the Law.

Oga, i quoted the OT, God called Israel his first born except you want to tear the OT out of your bible.

But with your version of Calvinism, election is strictly to those in Christ so everyone else perishes!

Try another lame defense of your elite humans theory

I don't have any version, i quoted scriptures except your mind is playing games. Do explain the ephesians epistles i quoted. Ayam waiting.

Pls Op, Can you point out any errors in the book Kenneth Hagin wrote on why believers should speak in tongues, if i may ask?

I consider his points and i find no error, any explanation is welcome. I am open to learning.

vooks:

Thank you sir
He died....
1.For all (1 Tim. 2:6; Isa. 53:6).
2. For every man (Heb. 2:9).
3. For the world (John 3:16).
4. For the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2).
5. For the ungodly (Rom. 5:6).
6. For false teachers (2 Peter 2:1).
7. For many (Matt. 20:28).
8. For Israel (John 11:50–51).
9. For the Church (Eph. 5:25).
10. For "me" (Gal. 2:20).

Do you understand how contradictory it sounds to believe He died for all mankind but only a few elite believers, the Elect really appropriate His grace?

Jesus avails His blood for everyone but then goes ahead and marks a few to be its beneficiaries while the majority are totally incapable of accessing its merits?

If the majority are incapable of accessing the merits of Christ sacrifice, then the sacrifice is irrelevant and a mockery to them. God taunts sinners with an inaccessible means of salvation. All these verses I have shared above must be radically reinterpreted and twisted beyond recognition.

That is Calvinism for you. This theory in short reduces man into a spectator and a puppet with God pulling all the strings as far as salvation is concerned.

The only reason why many will end up in hell despite Christ dying for them is because they have REJECTED the gift of salvation. God's will is that nobody may perish, but they will perish. That is because His will is not exactly decrees but subject to His own creatures' freewill.

And this is why we keep on telling you man can and has rejected the offer of salvation.
Man can only reject this offer if he has real freedom of choice

But if God controls the entire salvation process without any responsibility from man, then man had no freedom of choice. God saves men against or in spite of their will while condemning others against/inspire of their will.

And to wrap it up, if man can't lose their salvation because it is God's work, then God is responsible for sending dozens to hell because He refuses to work salvation in them. So Jesus dies for all mankind, but then God LIMITS access to Calvary to all but a few.

I know you will retort that God is not obliged to save anybody, to which I will ask, why then did Jesus die for ALL? Jesus could only die for all if God wills to save all

So once again, DID JESUS DIE FOR ALL?

Read Eph 1:4..God chose Israel from among the nation to be the channel through which He will bring salvation to the world doesn't mean God has rejected the world...

God has always been in the business of separation and election from Genesis to Revelation...this is scriptures.

Probably according to your warped theology God is sadistic for chosing ONLY israel among so many other nations as a prototype of what is to come. God is also sadistic for hardening Israel so the full number of gentiles has to be ingrafted in.

God said before ANYBODY DID ANYTHING HE CHOSE US TO BE HOLY AND BLAMELESS IN HIS SIGHT.
HE PREDESTINED US TO BE ADOPTED AS HIS SONS THROUGH JESUS CHRIST IN ACCORDANCE WITH HIS PLEASURE AND WILL...Eph 1:4-5.

This was the epistle of Paul to gentile nations called the ascension epistle telling them God has chose them.God sees them pure, He sees them having no iniquity.. I can understand this kind of gospel might be offensive to you and the Jews but not to God.

vooks:


Ayoku777 asked a simple question;
DID JESUS DIE FOR ALL MEN?
Or did God ever have a plan for saving all men?

I never saw this question in my mentions..ofcos Jesus died for mankind not a select few.

vooks:

God saves those who want to be saved. Salvation is purely of God but it is a gift conditional on your acceptance.

Isaiah 65:2 King James Version (KJV)
2 I have spread out my hands all the day unto a rebellious people, which walketh in a way that was not good, after their own thoughts;

Hebrews 3:7-8 King James Version (KJV)

7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:

Jesus did not die for a select lucky fellas like you imagine, He died for the WHOLE WORLD. His blood is available for ALL who believe. Claiming that Jesus died for a few is foolish and blasphemous. It charges God with sadism and recklessness.

John 3:16 is clear; the cross is an opportunity for ALL to be reconciled back to God.

We can argue all we want but it won't change a thing. I had never said Jesus died for a few. I wonder where you got that concept from. Paul by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit said the gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; but Israel who pursued a law of righteousness has not attained it. Why Not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works.( Romans 9:30-32).

And this is exactly what you are advancing here as if it is by do's and don'ts we can keep our salvation, remember Paul warnings to the gentile church in Galatia.." Dis you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort? (Gal 3:2b-3)...

So you see it is with the help of the Holy Spirit that man can live a rigtheous life with zeal for without Him we can do nothing. It is important to note that man has absolutely no part in salvation. If he has Israel would have been saved..."For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another.But God found fault with the people.( Heb 8:7-8a).

And concerning election i really do wonder why you could evade clear scriptures that says before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad- in order that God purpose in election might stand, not by works but by him who calls-she was told the older will serve the younger..just as it is written Jacob i loved, but Esau i hated....so God hardens who he wants to harden and have mercy on whom he wants to have mercy...( Romans 9)..Maybe you can call sadistic and reckless here because we are not the ones who wrote these scriptures... Israel has indeed experienced a hardening in part until THE FULL NUMBER OF GENTILES has come in and so all israel will be saved... So God is fully aware of the people that will be saved, to call Him a sadist is your cup of tea..If he is not aware of the numbers he wouldn't have quoted an exact figure of 144,000 sealed tribe in Israel in revelation.

It is not of him who wills or runs but it is God that shows mercy.

Truth be told you don't mix law with grace, when you sought to establish your own righteousness, thinking it will save you then you will receive the shock of your life when Jesus comes....Shalom.

jiggaz:
@ABDULADINO, my brother u get time to still dey argue with these people? They will never agree with you, so don't bother. Since you have known the Truth, don't bother yourself with dem. My happiness is that they are Believers, so they will make Heaven on the last day. But since they believe its their WORKS dat saves them until Rapture, so be it Don't stress yourself. They will understand later.

If its by WORKS that we are SAVED or that we can lose our Salvation after being SAVED, then mankind will be doomed cos nobody will make it. It is by the GRACE of God through faith. God chose us the elect from Eternity past and it is Him dat preserves us till the end. It will be hard for Human Comprehension but everything will be clear when we cross over to Eternity.

God promised us Eternal life through salvation and for that Eternal life to be lost will make God a liar, which is not possible. So a Believer can never lose His Salvation.

I now declare this thread closed.....

Ok bro..Bless you. I rest my case too..I guess it is difficult to convince skeptics. It is like convincing cessationist that the gift of tongues is still relevant today. I get you.

Scholar8200:
That's because he died on the day he believed. Besides, he ceased to revile Jesus like his fellow.

why then is he commanded to watch and pray, take heed, hold fast, be sober and vigilant?

spiritual death:separation from God! Paul issued the same discipline on Hymenaeus and Philetus. Did they repent? Did they not persist in their faith wrecking teachings and Paul said to avoid them? Were they still saved while overthrowing the faith of others? Before you claim they were not saved initially, remember Paul's principle in 1 Corinth 5:12,13
The churches in Revelations were on earth and a similar charge was given them

Do earnestly consider 2 Peter 1:8-12

But true faith that produces salvation will be revealed by newness life. Titus 1:15,16, Titus 2:12,13

Define Grace using relevant scriptures

busy..will attend shortly.

vooks:

What does 'keeping' entail?
Why do possessors of eternal life need 'keeping'?

He predestined,, He called,, He justified( saves from the power of sin),, He glorified.( saves from the presence of sin)...That's what keeping entails. Not the work of man, it is God that is at work both TO WILL and to DO of his good pleasure.

Romans 8:28-39 is unequivocably clear that it is God's faithfulness that keeps them, not their faithfulness. God predestinated His elect to adoptions as sons through the purchase price of Jesus Christ's death. It is impossible for even one to be separated from God's love and that is why i said God preserves the elect by His grace and integrity in Jesus Christ. It isn't difficult to comprehend Romans 8:28-39.

vooks:


The believer has eternal life. What does 'preserving' him add?
Note that this 'preserving' does not prevent them from sinning nor does it give him eternal life (this he has already)

Seems like a redundant exercise according to your amateur theology

Lol. Kudos to you since you have the words of eternal life. I never claimed to be an embodiment of knowledge here. I am a student of the bible.

Scholar8200:
He believes and accepts and he must continue in that faith with the evidence of the fruits of love, holiness else he becomes a reprobate 2 Corinth 13:5

Ofcos you cannot have assurance without "goodworks". The repentant thief went to heaven and there was no good works following him.

sin

A believer does not lose his salvation by the sin of omission or commission.

I am sure you are not mistaking the death James mentioned to be the physical one; that lives us with one option!

If it is Spiritual death, then Paul wouldn't have been confident to say deliver such one for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.( 1 cor 5:5). And we know that spirits do not die, they only suffer eternal torment.So which death are you talking about?

Bro read your Bible ? I didnt write those did i?

12 And the love of [f]the great body of people will grow cold because of the multiplied lawlessness and iniquity,
13 But he who endures to the end will be saved.
Matthew 24:12,13

Endures and cleaves to the Lord in spite of the declension (per the highlighted) of some," And he... overcomes (is victorious) and ... obeys My commands to the [very] end [doing the works that please Me], I will give him authority and power over the nations;
Revelations 2:26 So if he indulges in those things, he is not among those that endures to the end!

Please do rightly divide the word of truth. The gospel is in dispensations. If you believe in rapture you will agree that the context of Matt 24..is tribulation, the time of great judgement on earth. Those enduring to the end are delivered out of tribulation into the millenial reign of Jesus Christ. It is not salvation.

Grace does not violate our free will at any time.

I agree grace does not give license to sin( Romans 6:1-2). The believer is urged to serve NOT TO KEEP SALVATION, because it is a secure position and a gift from God( 2 cor 5:14).

Yes they are works of faith that prove that our faith is genuine else we are reprobates!

I still maintain my stand that some of God's elect live barren lives without fruit..the thief on the cross is an example of such individuals. Faith + works does not equal salvation, that is an invention of the roman catholics. Salvation is Faith minus works.

But he could have died outside the Father's house. By the way, the Father already counted him DEAD till he came back!Luke 15:24,32

Yet he didn't die because God knows the end from the beginning. If God were to count believers who sin as dead then the blood of Jesus is powerless and has no efficacy, what you are advocating is that Jesus has to go back and hung on that cross every time a believer commits the sin of omission or comission. Very hilarious indeed.

Scholar8200:
I know! But they had a role to play in appropriating God's provision!

No role. They were pricked in their heart. It is the work of the Holy Spirit to convict sinners and bring them to repentance.Man is to receive. Man has no role in the gift of salvation. He is just to believe and accept it.

Read again:
confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

Read what?

Who, when he came, and had seen the grace of God, was glad, and exhorted them all, that with purpose of heart they would cleave unto the Lord.
True no one can pluck them from His Hands but they also must cleave to Him with determination meaning if they do not cleave, they will fall!

Fall in to what?

Yes we are saved without works but after we are thus saved, our works prove the existence or not of the faith by which we are saved:
Faith works by love Galatians 5:22,23 and love is what you get when you walk in the Spirit. Besides James 1:12-16 talks about the need for Perseverance part of which involves victory over temptation because yielding thereto leads to sin which results in death!

Which death actually?

And our purpose of heart to cleave to Him and hold fast and endure to the end!

Endure what and to what end? Are you teaching that you can lose salvation by sinning after your free will decision got salvation started? Lol. True arminianism from Jacobus arminius.Smh! Just like your father.

Yes HE does but not against a purpose of heart to cleave to Him while resisting temptation, denying the flesh, bearing the cross enduring trials and depending on Him for grace to," Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord"Hebrews 12:14

All of these are works. They have no role to play in salvation. Holiness is not by the effort of man. It is a gift at new birth.

But the prodigal son had to recall himself, humble himself and, though hungry, tired and tattered,take the long journey back home! If he had not swallowed his pride, he will perish in the far country,outside his Father's house where the mansions are!

The prodigal son still remained a SON..he was never dis inherited. That is what you arminians fail to SEE.

vooks:


You are deep on semantics.
1. Explain exactly what God preserves means
2. Explain the PURPOSE of this preservation

Read Romans 8 : 28-29.

Scholar8200:
Man has to repent and believe the Gospel and afterwards cleave to the Lord with purpose of heart and continue in the faith!

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

The audience were unbelievers not believers.

confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

Who, when he came, and had seen the grace of God, was glad, and exhorted them all, that with purpose of heart they would cleave unto the Lord.

Acts 2:38 and Acts 14:22, Acts 11:23

God preserves the elect by His grace and integrity in Jesus Christ but does not guarantee their perseverance in holiness and righteousness. You can be saved without works. Conversion and fruitbearing by God's elect vary from none to much, from lot to Abraham from demas to Paul. Some of the elect even ministers would have their works burned up but they would be saved( 1 cor 3:15).

Then explain James 1:15,16
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: [size=13pt]and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death[/size]. 16 [size=13pt]Do not err, my beloved brethren[/size].

Read from verse 12..James is talking about perseverance. And Paul has balanced it that you can be saved without works. Salvation is a free gift of God without works. ( Rom 3:24). God will not share His glory with another and salvation by works puts Him in a position of debt to sinners which He is not at all( Romans 4:1-.

Why then does the devil tempt believers to sin if it takes nothing away from them whatsoever? Note that he tempts to sin!

The devil is always in the business of tempting from time immemorial. But there is one he tempted who knew no sin.The man Jesus Christ became sin for us that we might the righteousness of God in Christ. Our basis for eternal security is the faithfulness and power of God and perpetual intercession of Jesus Christ( Romans 5:10, 8:34.

1 cor 1:8-9..He will keep you strong to the end,so that you will be blameless on the day of our lord Jesus Christ..emphasis on "HE"

And why would Peter exhort to be sober and vigilant against the adversary who must be resisted?
Or why would John admonish that :
1 John 5:18
18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
Of course it's a work of faith done in dependence on the Spirit through Whom we mortify the flesh but He wont do it sans our active cooperation in faith and willingness!

You have answered yourself that it is indeed a work of faith by depending on the Holy Spirit which we are sealed until the day of redemption. If a child of God plays with sin, he grieves and quench the witness of the Holy Spirit but that doesn't mean the Holy Spirit departed. He is still in there waiting for the prodigal son to come to himself. The prodigal son realise his mistakes..he never even reached the father before the father ran to him from a distance. And that is why "once saved always saved" is used because it is applied to the death and ressurection of Jesus Christ.Read John 19:30, Heb 9:12).

Once saved is applied to the will of God in election, the death of Christ in justification or the cleansing of the Spirit in regeneration.

Scholar8200:
There was a time folks came to Jesus with a yes or no question on tribute but He saw their motive hence answered with wisdom. Your yes or no question bears semblance with the intention of those folks!

My brother don't put yourself into the error that you are better than anyone here. You are not Jesus. He is the wisdom and the power of God and we all drink from that living water and cistern. Even a babe in christ and a mature believer are all equals before Him. I believe you are a christian but you are a critic of the eternal security of a believer and this is where we disagree.

However, as regards your question,If I say:
God, you will say then man has no part
Man, you will say that's law of works
But if you will appreciate why it is called NEW COVENANT, you will understand the role of mutual action in getting saved and remaining saved.
If man has no part then it's no longer a covenant

Man has no role to play in the new covenant. It is between God and Christ.Christ is the mediator of the new covenant that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance. Christ sacrifice is once and for all.

And the new covenant is not by the effort of man for he says that He himself will PUT the laws in our hearts and write them in our minds and the sins and lawless acts HE will remember no more.

So you cannot lose salvation because of sin, whether past, present and future.Christ forgives sins in advance that is not to say we are advocating licentious living here. It is scriptures. Our sin in the new covenant do not separate us from God. God has already judged sin in the flesh of His Son...so we are justified.
( just as if i have never sinned) by grace.

James makes it plain that there is no small or big sin( James 2:10-11). So it is not about fornication or any thing imaginable your mind can list or conceive. The scripture says what it means and means what it says. It is either Jesus is the saviour of ALL or not your saviour at all.