5solas:

The force of this question just hit me, it is enough to conclude the discussion. Waiting for answers.

Lol. My brother trust these guys to be evasive. There is no salvation in any other name save Jesus. Salvation is safety. You can't be saved and not stay safe.

Scholar8200:


1. God made the Provision in Christ for our salvation but we must appropriate that Provision by repentance and faith Mark 1:15, Acts 3:19, Acts 2:38

2. God made Provision for us in Christ, by the Power of the Spirit, but we must appropriate that also by faith:

For if you live according to [the dictates of] the flesh, you will surely die. But if through the power of the [Holy] Spirit you are [habitually] putting to death (making extinct, deadening) the [evil] deeds prompted by the body, you shall [really and genuinely] live forever.
Romans 8:13

12 Let not sin therefore rule as king in your mortal (short-lived, perishable) bodies, to make you yield to its cravings and be subject to its lusts and evil passions.
13 Do not continue offering or yielding your bodily members [and [a]faculties] to sin as instruments (tools) of wickedness. But offer and yield yourselves to God as though you have been raised from the dead to [perpetual] life, and your bodily members [and [b]faculties] to God, presenting them as implements of righteousness. Romans 6:12,13

The highlighted establishes a role being played by both Parties to the Covenant.

3. Explain further! Temptations to yield to sin continue till we die. Temptation is not sin but yielding to temptation is sin and leads to death.

Lol@ all these irrelevant long epistles. Who saves from SIN? Man or God? There is no middle ground here.

vooks:


Acts 2:40 King James Version (KJV)

40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

Peter is not mistaken, he is telling his countrymen to SEIZE the opportunity granted. God does not repent nor believe for man

Lol in other words Man saves himself from sin. Ok o.

Scholar8200:

Going around in circles? James was telling a couple of brethren that temptation should not be yielded to else sin comes in and with sin death?

Lemme come from a diff angle.

Who saves from the penalty of sin? Man or God?

Who saves from the Power of sin? Man or God?

Who saves from the presence of sin?(glorification) Man or God?

vooks:

Salvation remains God's gift to man. Your responsibility is to accept it or perish.

Accepting God's grace is human responsibility. But satan does not mind company so he keeps lying to you that you are still in Christ while you are son of Belial

Lol@ son of belial. It is the Father that draws the heart of men to HIMSELF. God knows the end from the beginning.

Scholar8200:
Kindly re-read that quote!
Bible:
15 Then the evil desire, when it has conceived, gives birth to sin, and sin,when it is fully matured, [size=14pt]brings forth death[/size].
16 [size=13pt]Do not be misled, my beloved brethren[/size].
James 1:15,16

ABDULADINO:Fornication or any other sin for that matter does not LEAD TO LOSS OF SALVATION

Who do we follow?

Like i said already addressed. I quoted Paul earlier about a young man inbreeding yet Paul was confident his spirit will be saved. You are going around in circles really. IS THE SCRIPTURE HERE TALKING ABOUT SALVATION?

Scholar8200:

James 1:14-16
14 But every person is tempted when he is drawn away, enticed and baited by his own evil desire (lust, passions).
15 Then the evil desire, when it has conceived, gives birth to sin, and sin, when it is fully matured, [size=14pt]brings forth death[/size].
16 Do not be misled, my beloved brethren.

The wages of sin remains death.

Already addressed. Fornication or any other sin for that matter does not LEAD TO LOSS OF SALVATION. If it does even you won't be saved. He that is without sin should cast the first stone.Except you are telling us here you are PERFECT.

vooks:


You miss the point which is human responsibility. If we are not responsible whatsoever then these admonitions should be directed at whoever (God) is responsible.

If preaching Christ is demonic, so be it

No human being is responsible for salvation save Jesus Christ and Him crucified. You don't preach Christ except your opinions that is what i referrred to as demonic.

John 15:6 (KJV)
If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

James 5:19-20 (ESV)
19 My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, 20 let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

James too was demon possessed for telling us we would save the sinning believer's soul from death.

Hebrews 10:26-31 (ESV)
26 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
The Author of Hebrews too was demon possessed.

Only this amateur theologian has Holy Spirit it seems. I wonder why God never thought leaving a slot for him in the canon to pen one or two books

All these have been addressed in so many posts here and other eternal security skeptics threads on nairaland. No need to belabour the point.

vooks:

If it's all about Christ, then the dozens of exhortation to holy living are misplaced as they are directed at man.

1 Corinthians 6:18King James Version (KJV)

18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.

Yes Paul admonishes to flee, a mature believer attacks such thoughts with the word of God before it becomes full blown. But for a babe in Christ who falls into such temptations, does that lead to his loss of salvation?

The blood of Jesus cleanses us from ALL sin. Preaching and teaching condemnation is a deadly and demonic doctrine.

Fornication doesn't lead to loss of salvation.

An2elect2:
What is the whole talk about faith from Ayoku 777 and others, when faith itself is given?

Faith is a gift, no man can produce the faith of Christ unto salvation.

Repentance is a gift.

Discernment is a gift.

Patience and long suffering are gifts.

All are gifts of the Spirit, so which one are you ascribing to man?

God bless you sis, it reminds me of the scripture in which Paul said i am crucufied with Christ, it is no longer i that lived but Christ that lives in me and the life i now live i live by FAITH OF the Son of God who loved me and gave Himself for me.Salvation is all about Christ and none of man.

vooks:

Read your bible, it will save you. Doctrines and philosophies of men will consign you to the lake of fire together with satan and his angels

Reading a bible doesn't save.Atheists read the bible too.Jesus is the only one that saves.Guess you don't know HIM.

vooks:

It's a rhetorical question. You look dumb without trying as it were

He told them to do something.
Man has to respond to God's grace else he perishes

Do you know what a sarcasm is?

vooks:

So why did Peter prescribe repentance? Or better, why was he preaching in the first place?

Maybe you can ask Peter if you see him since you believe Peter has a role to play in salvation.

vooks:


John 15:4-6 (KJV)
Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. 6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned

1. ABIDE is an instruction, a command by God to man
2. Failure to ABIDE has consequences of (a) being pluck off, and (b) being cast into fire.

Question
1. What is ABIDE?

It is God that is at work in us both to WILL and to DO of His good pleasure. A true believer is already abiding in Christ. It is always the work of the Holy Spirit not a fleshy movement or manifestion of man WHICH IS A RELIGIOUS EXERCISE IN FUTILITY. Man has no part to play in salvation since he is fleshy. The flesh doesn't inherit God's kingdom.

vooks:


You lack discernment totally. How do I access this gift?
I can ask an amateur theologian or Peter.
Acts 2:37-40 (KJV)
Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. 40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

Amateur half baked theologians be like, do what? It's a gift!

I don't lack discernment. Your arrogance is fleshy and not a fruit of the Spirit. The same Peter was hesistant to go to the gentiles. He was shocked when the same "gift" fell on cornelius and his household without him asking what he must do.

It is typical of Jews to ask what they must do since they are legalistic. Salvation is not a legalistic exercise. It is a prompting from God's Spirit.

sportsmaster:

know that salvation is a promise.
To receive a promise,you must believe it.

My emphasis is there is no condition for salvation, it has always been the work of God.We are not involved, except for receiving the "gift" by faith in Christ.

vooks:


Man has a responsibility in his salvation. His role is to RESPOND to God's grace. Responding is not working; responding is a CONDITION for salvation. Faith is not salvation, it is a condition for salvation.

This is a pitiable doctrine. There is NO CONDITION for salvation.

Eph 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. (NKJ)

vooks:


BELIEVES is active continuous tense.


Nothing can pluck you from Jesus/Father's hand. But you are not held there against your will. You can walk away.

Think Adam in Eden. NOTHING could pluck him from Eden. Not even Satan. But the devil provoked him to rebel and walk away from all that

Go back and reread that scripture. God's mercy triumphed over judgement despite the challenge. God covers them with his mercy. The blood of the skin wrapped around Adam even when he deliberately rebelled was a shadow of what is to come. The Bible indicates that the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin. This means that no sin a believer commits can result in condemnation or loss of salvation

muphasar11:


Mind if I come in here
If we deliberately walk against the word we need not denounce Christ with words our actions already says who we are serving.
If we confess christ with our mouth and our actions say otherwise we are not of his fold.
So even if we don't want to leave and nothing is drawing us away if we fail to walk in the spirit and then end up fulfilling the laws of the flesh. It boils down to same thing. The line between salvation and condemnation is so thin most people won't know when they have crossed out of Gods grace.
its either one serves God or you serve Sin
No 1 can serve 2 masters.

Good morning

Yes, believers sin, but do not live in a state of continual sin.The claim that the doctrine of eternal security might lead to licentiousness is a red herring.

Paul already debunked this when he said It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that does not occur even among pagans: A man has his father's wife... hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord. (1 Corinthians 5:1, 5)

Paul shows that the man was committing incest with his father's wife (mother?), yet Paul was still confident that his spirit would be saved. So, a true believer cannot lose his salvation through sin.

[quote author=ayoku777 post=37137888]

This is the lie you're peddling. That if someone can depart from the faith, he was never in the fold. How convenient.

So there are unelected believers? So there are believers in Christ now, who are not elected?

So we believers in Christ are not even sure yet if we are among the elect? We just have to wait to see if we depart from the faith; then we will know if we are elected or not?

Listen and listen good. There is no believer in Christ who is not an elect. And if a believer can depart from the faith, according to the Holy Spirit; it means even the elect can fall away.

A person who left the fold is NOT a believer to start with. A "Christian" who responded to an altar call in 1982, but isn't following Jesus isn't really a believer. The New Testament qualifies the definition of a believer as being one who has faith in Jesus Christ. Faith is more than merely having some knowledge about the facts surrounding the life and teaching of Jesus Christ. You made mention in your earlier posts of atheists who left the fold due to unbelief. I believe if you make further inquires of them, it will be clear that they never truly understood what faith meant, and never had any kind of experience with the Holy Spirit. Jesus himself made it plain in scriptures that they were never truly his, they never had any intercourse nor intimacy with him. These are tares masquerading as wheat.

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' (Matthew 7:21-23)


Either way you translate it, these people are pretending to be followers of Jesus while they continually practice evil deeds. So, these people are not backsliding Christians, but unbelievers who were never truly saved.

John also made it clear : They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us. (1 John 2:19)


Not a single verse in the bible indicates a true believer can fall into unbelief.

He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Corinthians 1:

2Peter 1v10 -Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

If our election is inherently sure or unmovable by default; why would the scripture admonish us to give diligence to making it sure (or making sure it doesn't move) ?

That God is Sovereign doesn't mean He is a dictator; All-powerful doesn't mean All-imposing.

Time and time again Jesus warned the churches in revelation; "He that overcometh...".

Why that statement? Isn't every believer an overcomer? If every believer will end an overcomer by force, will you be telling believers, "He that overcometh..." ?

Some believers will depart from the faith and will not end as overcomers. And believers who don't end as overcomers, will have their names blotted out of the book of life (Rev 3v5) and will be hurt of the second death -lake of fire (Rev 2v11)

This statement that anyone who can depart from the faith was never an elect is a lie. There is no such thing as an unelected believer. Every believer is an elect of God. Those who depart from faith in Christ did not make their election sure.

The choice to keep or depart from the faith is perpetually ours. Jesus being the author and perfecter of our faith is not whether we want it or not.

Shalom.

Over 80 verses, from virtually every New Testament book indicates that the believer is predestined, called, chosen, and sealed as a child of God to be an heir with Christ for glorification in heaven. The idea that believers can never have assurance of their salvation is something that is refuted over and over in the Bible.

Revelation 2:11

In revelation 2:11, Jesus says to the church at Smyrna, "He who overcomes will not be hurt at all by the second death."

The term "second death" is a term defined later in the book of Revelation and refers to those who are thrown into the lake of fire (hell) after the judgment.

All true believers overcome the temptations and trials of the world and are not subject to eternal condemnation.

I have already addressed this query of yours before and you never countered it.

Revelation 3:5 says, "He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life."

The question is what is this "book of life" and how does one's name get into the book or be removed from the book?

The Old Testament verses describing the "book of Life" indicate that all the living are placed in the book of life and are removed from the book as the result of systematic sin (i.e., unbelief).

In the New Testament, the book of Revelation says that names are written in the book of life only for those who believe.

However, their names were written in the book "from the creation of the world."

In Revelation 3:5, Jesus says He "will never blot out his name from the book of life" to those who overcome. He didn't say He would blot out the names of those who fall. However, believers have been given the authority to "overcome all the power of the enemy" (Luke 10:19).

vooks:

That is how wearing Calvinist shades blind your eyes.
The brother WANDERS FROM THE TRUTH.
He must have been in the truth in the first place.

If he is in the truth in the first instance, he wouldn't have wandered from the truth.

They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us. (1 John 2:19)

vooks:

You are confused or acting hard to confuse.
There is not a remote probability that the verse was addressed to anybody other than believers. Would James go calling sinners his brethren?
If they are not saved then they are not brethren in the first place. So, why call them thus?
Ananias and Saphira were brethren. Who told you they were not?

Read this verse again
James 5:19-20 (ESV)
19 My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, 20 let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

For somebody to wander from the truth they must have been in the truth in the first place. Sinners don't wander from the truth seeing they were never in it. So the subject here are believers AMONG THEM who strayed and risked death. Note too the death in question is that of a soul and not just the body.

I find this theory of yours of casting aspersions on believers' historical faith on the basis of their current action unreasonable. You for instance were you to fall away and start living in sin. Would we be justified in adjudging you as unsaved ab initio?

If we did, then it means all the present Christians just think they are Christians but the real ones we can only find out in future should they fall away

James addresses "my brothers" and says in verse 5:20, "he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins."

Although the verse is addressed to "brothers," i still maintain that not all among the brethren are necessarily saved. The fact that the brother had his soul saved from death and it covered a multitude of sins tells us that the "brother" was never saved in the first place. If he had been saved, his sin would have already been covered by faith in Jesus.

An2elect2:
Our brother in the Lord,Abduladino! where have you been!

My sister, i am good. Been busy of late. How are you doing?

deluxecad:
VERY CRUDE SCAM.

Why is it a scam?

bb4522:

Plz can a chemical engineer in kaduna apply, thou I have sales experience

Yes, you can.Goodluck

Send your Cv to michaeljamesk@yahoo.co.uk. The company is biogenerics. Location is Kaduna or Abuja

ayoku777:


Faith and faithfulness are not directly the same thing, and they are not synonyms. They can't be used interchangeably in sentences.

Eph 2v8 -For by grace are ye save through faith is not the same thing as Eph 2v8 -For by grace are ye save through faithfulness

When scripture talks about "Faithfulness" it is talking in terms of service. That's why you keep hearing the expression "faithful servant"

Matthew 25v21 -...weldone, thou good and faithful servant:

Matthew 25v23 -...weldone, thou good and faithful servant:

But when the scripture talks about "The Faith" it is talking about saving faith; the faith by which we are saved, justified and made believers. The faith in Christ which if we lack makes us unbelievers.

Eph 2v8 -For by grace are ye save through faith (not faithfulness)

Romans 5v1 -Therefore being justified by faith (not faithfulness); we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

This is the faith the Holy Spirit said some shall depart from in the last days. The faith by which we are saved and justified in Christ Jesus -not faithfulness.

1Timothy 4v1 - Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times SOME SHALL DEPART FROM THE FAITH, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils.

Ofcourse the believers who depart from this faith became unbelievers, and clearly lost salvation.

Did Ananias and Sapphira depart from the Faith? God still knows those who are His. He knows the end from the beginning. it is possible to have your faith wrecked by false teachers, persecution, or temptations. Hymenaeus and Philetus overthrew the faith of some by teaching the resurrection had already come and gone; but God still knew those who were His.

The fact that some people fall away from the faith does not mean that they were ever saved, but that they had professed to be Christians at some point in time. They knew about the Lord Jesus Christ and professed for a time to follow Him, but then they apostatized from the faith.

And since you brought up the issue of context; let me ask you.

In what context did Paul mean that the gentile believers will be cut off from Christ if they don't continue in His goodness in this verse?

Romans 11v22 -Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be CUT OFF.

In what other context can a believer be cut off from Christ other than in the context of the loss of salvation? Because branches that are cut off are cast into the fire, according to Jesus.

John 15v6 -If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth (cut off) as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

The only context in which a branch is cut off from its vine is the context that ends in the fire.

To be cut off from Christ is to lose salvation and end in the lake of fire. And scripture warns that it is possible.

This is the chastisement of the believer not bearing fruit as in 1 Cor 5:5, the body is destroyed (Sin Unto Death), but the soul is preserved.

1 Cor 5:5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. (NKJ)


It is equivalent to the Judgment Seat of Christ (1 Cor 3:15) where useless works are burned while the person is saved

1 Cor 3:15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. (NKJ)



Christian Living is "abiding in Christ" and those cast forth are not in Christ but actually are "tares" masquerading as "wheat" and are unsaved.

Then also, in what context will names in the book of life be blotted out? Because there is only one end for those whose names are not found written in the book of life -lake of fire.

And remember He said the names will be blotted out, not that the name won't be written in. Meaning the name was there before. So, in what context will it be blotted out other than the context of the loss of salvation?

Shalom!

Revelation 3:5 says, "He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life."

The question is what is this "book of life" and how does one's name get into the book or be removed from the book? The Old Testament verses describing the "book of Life" indicate that all the living are placed in the book of life and are removed from the book as the result of systematic sin (i.e., unbelief).

In the New Testament, the book of Revelation says that names are written in the book of life only for those who believe.

However, their names were written in the book "from the creation of the world." In Revelation 3:5, Jesus says He "will never blot out his name from the book of life" to those who overcome. He didn't say He would blot out the names of those who fall. However, believers have been given the authority to "overcome all the power of the enemy" (Luke 10:19).

vooks:

On 1 Cor 5:5 , note Paul uses the language of probability, not certainty (MAY.) The goal of handing him over was discipline and reformation to the end that he may repent and his soul saved.



Let me paste that verse again for those who need repetition to gerrit
James 5:20 (KJV)
Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.
James talks of saving his SOUL not body. Do you know what is a soul?

Believers do not LOSE their salvation through sinning. Even if the verse was addressed to brothers, not all the brethren are necessarily saved. Ananias and Saphira is an example of such.

vooks:

Why are you wrestling scriptures?

What are consequences of a wrecked faith? God will ship to His side ex-believers devoid of faith?

Try and wrest this as well.

James 5:19-20 King James Version (KJV)
19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

Note James is addressing 'any among you' meaning believers. Also, unlike Paul in 1 Tim 4:1, James explains the CONSEQUENCES. Do you think James had in mind prolonging life when he talks of 'save a soul from death'? Or his understanding of predestination and salvation was deficient?

Cc Ayoku777,Winsomex

Juxtapose with the Pauline epistle to have a balance. Was The consequence hell? The Bible indicates that the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin.

This means that no sin a believer commits can result in condemnation or loss of salvation. What about "believers" who live in a continual state of sin? Such individuals are hypocrites and not believers at all. The Bible indicates that believers do not practice sin on a routine basis. A direct example of a believer falling into sin, but still retaining his salvation is given by Paul:

It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that does not occur even among pagans: A man has his father's wife... hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord. (1 Corinthians 5:1, 5)

Paul indicates that the man was committing incest with his father's wife (mother?), yet Paul was still confident that his spirit would be saved. So, a true believer cannot lose his salvation through sin.

ayoku777:


If he departs from (forsakes, abandons) the faith in Christ by which he is saved, yes he can.

Apostle Paul told the gentile believers.

Romans 11v22 -Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be CUT OFF.

If it was impossible for a believer to be cut off from Christ, scripture will not warn us about it. If we are warned it is because it can happen, and to be cut off from Christ is to lose salvation.



An elect is a believer in Christ. For you to be in hell you need to be an unbeliever. You can't be a believer or elect and go to hell. But a believer can depart from the faith and become an unbeliever and go to hell.

In that case; an elect or believer did not go to hell. An elect or believer became an unbeliever (departed from the faith) and went to hell.



Jesus cannot lose those He died for, but those He died for can depart from Him and from faith in Him. And He won't force them to stay.

Jesus didn't lose Judas (in the context of someone snatching Judas), Judas departed from Jesus and went his way. And Jesus didn't force him to stay.

Jesus cannot lose us but we can depart from Jesus and from faith in Him.

Hebrew 3v12 -Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.



No, you're saved by grace through faith.

Ephesians 2v8 -For by grace are ye saved through faith:



You are saved without works. You are saved by grace through faith.

Ephesians 2v8 -For by grace are ye saved through faith:



The solution to what? Staying saved? Since we are saved by grace through faith, we stay saved by keeping the faith through which we are saved.

Paul said;

2Tim 4v7 -I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have KEPT THE FAITH:

Its your choice to keep the faith or depart from the faith.



Ofcourse you can! We have access by faith into grace.

Romans 5v2 -By whom also we have access BY FAITH into this grace wherein we stand

If you depart from that faith (which is possible); you will fall from grace.



The elect are the believers. Can a believer depart from (abandon, forsake) the faith? The Holy Spirit told Paul they can; and some will.



Going to the lake of fire is not chastening. It is the second death. The end place of everyone who died as an unbeliever in Christ.



These letters of Christ and His warnings to the seven churches in revelation are more literal than symbolic.

These letters were dictated by Jesus to John; and were written to literal churches with literal believers in Christ, who lived in literal cities in a literal era (around 90AD to 100AD).

And the messages and warnings are relevant to every believer and every church in every era of the church age.

A believer's name being blotted out of the book of life, and him being hurt of the second death (lake of fire) is a literal warning.

Shalom!

Edit. Sorry, The first question was wrongly answered. Romans 11:22 does not in any way indicate loss of salvation of a believer. Read Romans 11:29 where God's gift is irrevocable and that includes salvation.

The simple truth is that a child of God can never lose his salvation. A child of God can never lose heaven and end up in hell. He may lose earthly benefits of knowing and living the truth, but his name will stay in the book of life. God predestinated His elect to adoption as sons through the purchase price of Jesus Christ's death (Gal 4:4-6; Eph 1:3-6). Jesus Christ will stand before God and present every one of them to God (Heb 2:13). It is impossible for even one to be separated from God's love (Rom 8:28-39). It is God's faithfulness that keeps them, not their faithfulness. He will never repent of His gift of eternal life (Rom 11:29).

*Romans 8:29-39
Rom 8:29-39 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. 31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things? 33 Who shall bring a charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or unclothedness, or peril, or sword? 36 As it is written: "For Your sake we are killed all day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter." 37 Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. 38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. (NKJ)

The second answer was not backed by scriptures but your opinions. There is no where in scripture where an elect is later called an unbeliever.The Believer is one of God's sheep. God gives the Believer Eternal Life. The promise is that they will never perish. A further promise relates the fact that no one can pluck the Believer out of God's hand.

The word "elect" means that God chose a person to eternal life before the world began (Rom 8:29-33; Eph 1:3-12; I Pet 1:2). God put the elect in the hand of Jesus Christ, and no man is able to pluck them out of either Christ's hand or God's hand (John 10:28-29). Just as surely as Adam made all men sinners, so Jesus Christ made all the elect righteous and beneficiaries of eternal life (Rom 5:14-19; I Cor 15:22). It is just as impossible for Jesus Christ to go to hell as it is for even one elect in Jesus Christ to go to hell (Ps 89:19-37; Heb 6:13-20).


As for the third Judas was never saved (Jn 6:70-71; 13:10-11)

John 6:70-71 Jesus answered them, "Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?" 71 He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve. (NKJ)

John 13:10-11 Jesus said to him, "He who is bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you." 11 For He knew who would betray Him; therefore He said, "You are not all clean." (NKJ).

Everyone in Jesus Christ, the elect are chosen in Him, will be saved to the uttermost (Heb 7:25). Jesus Christ will present every single one of the elect to God (Heb 2:13). Since His death was so precious, God will give every other gift to the elect (Rom 8:32). If anyone for whom Jesus died could be lost, then God would have to reject His Son's work, which cannot occur (Is 53:10-12).

I have repeatedly said it is possible to have your faith wrecked by false teachers, persecution, or temptations. Hymenaeus and Philetus overthrew the faith of some by teaching the resurrection had already come and gone; but God still knew those who were His, which is the real issue of eternal life anyway (II Tim 2:15-19). Paul warned Timothy to ministerial faithfulness, lest he cost his hearers the truth and righteous living (I Tim 4:16). And he told Corinth that they were of all men most miserable, if they let false teachers steal the doctrine of the resurrection from them (I Cor 15:2,19).

As for perseverance it does not logically follow that man who has done no work to obtain salvation, must somehow work to maintain salvation. Salvation is a GIFT received by faith alone in Christ alone. Those choosing not to walk with the Lord or abide in Him after salvation will suffer discipline in time (Hebrews 12:5-


Heb 12:5-8 And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons: "My son, do not despise the chastening of the Lord, nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him; 6 For whom the Lord loves He chastens, and scourges every son whom He receives." 7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? 8 But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons. (NKJ)


And loss of rewards for eternity (1 Cor 3:11-15)


1 Cor 3:11-15 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. (NKJ)


Salvation is NOT LOST because it has ALWAYS BEEN the work of God. We are not involved, except for receiving the "Gift" by faith in Christ.I take revelations as symbolic and not literal. Thanks.

vooks:

What is DEPART FROM FAITH?

Context. Paul warned timothy to ministerial faithfulness. It IS possible to have your faith wrecked by false teachers. To depart is NEVER to fall from salvation but from accurate bible doctrine.The entire context IS not SALVATION.

ayoku777:


Unfortunately for you, I understand well what it means to be ordained unto something. And it is clear from scripture that what a man is ordained unto does not override his freewill or his right of choice to decide where he ends up.

Judas Iscariot was ordained by Jesus to be among those who will sit on twelve thrones in the age to come judging the twelve tribes of Israel. But he chose to go his own way -the way of perdition; contrary to what he was ordained unto by God.

Matthew 19v28 -And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also (Judas inclusive) shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

But Judas chose to become a son of perdition and go the way of perdition.

Acts 1v25 -That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.

Judas was ordained to sit on a throne in the age to come, but he fell by transgression, and went his own way.

You see that?

A man can choose to go his own way, what he was ordained unto not withstanding. Just like names written in the book of life can be blotted out.

A man can by his own choice to depart from the faith, cause his own name to be blotted out of the book of life and end up in the lake of fire; even though the name was once in the book (that is, he once had eternal life).

You can argue with me, but not with scripture. Names can be blotted out of the book of life, according to Jesus.

Tip-toe all you want round these verses, it won't mean any other thing other than prove that salvation and eternal life can be lost by someone who once had it.

Shalom.

Salvation package was brought by the death, burial and ressurection of Christ. After the the Holy Spirit was released during pentecost and Has never left since then.He is still the governor among the nations.

The questions which you have never answered clearly with scriptures is:

1. Can a child of God lose his salvation?

2. Are there any elect in hell?

3. Can Jesus lose any He died for?

4.Am i saved by my works?

5. Can i be saved without works?

6.Is "perseverance of the saints" the solution?

7.Can i fall from grace?

8.Can the elect's Faith be overthrown?

9. Does severe chastening mean i am going to hell?

These are some of the questions we need answers sir! It is not done by selective picking of scriptures and quoting symbolic revelation to promote doctrinal opinions.