₦airaland Forum

TenQ:
1. Before Allah removed Jesus to himself, were People misconceived about the whereabout of Jesus?
2. When Allah removed Jesus, did Allah tell ANY of Jesus people what he had done?
3. After Allah removed Jesus, according to you there was a MISCONCEPTION! Is it not Allah that is responsible for this misconception?


About the earth, did Allah at any point change the shape of the earth (intervention) after men had been on earth? No!

If there was any misconception, it was by the Deception of Allah!

Did God at at any point change His character by telling us in the scriptures that He can put an innocent and righteous soul under His CURSE after men have known that God is naturally known to BLESS an innocent and righteous soul ? Certainly not !

There are many books like Gospel of Barnabas (which your church fathers termed apochryphal) which confirmed that people who are very close to Jesus knew that he wasn't the one that got crucified.

Again,there can be no any misconception for the people who are well versed in the scriptures. It is very clearly written in the scriptures that God would always protect Jesus Christ from any harm. Please compare the two biblical passage below ;

Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. “If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written:
“‘He will command his angels concerning you, and they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone. Jesus answered him, “It is also written: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test. (Matthew 4:5-7)

For he will command his angels concerning you to guard you in all your ways; they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone. [/b]You will tread on the lion and the cobra; you will trample the great lion and the serpent. “Because he loves me,” says the LORD, “I will rescue him; I will protect him, for he acknowledges my name. He will call on me, and I will answer him; I will be with him in trouble, I will deliver him and honor him ([b]Psalm 91:11-15)

See how Jesus confirmed that what the devil was saying about him is true by saying "It is also written".

Now if God really answered the blood-sweating prayer of Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane (Luke 22:44) just as God promised in Psalm 91 above, then how can Jesus be crucified ?

If it is true that Jesus has volunteered himself to die for our sins, then why did he pray so FERVENTLY asking for the crucifixion to be TAKEN AWAY from him not in one time but in THREE different consecutive times (see Matthew 26:36-44) ? If Jesus had truly and willingly laid down his life in heaven to die for our sin, then he must have been prepared by God both physically and spiritually for this great task. In that case, there would be no need for that blood- sweating prayer in the Garden of Gethsemane (Luke 22:44). Even if we assume that Jesus must pray because of the FLESH that is WEAK, then that prayer should definitely be for the "STRENGTH" that will enable him to bear the task. It should NOT be for the cup of crucifixion to be TAKEN AWAY from him.
Furthermore, if Jesus had VOLUNTEERED to laid down his life in heaven, then why did he have to LAMENT on the cross by saying allegedly;
"My God, my God, why have you FORSAKEN me? (Matthew 27:46)".
Does this sound like the voice of a someone who has VOLUNTEERED himself to die for our sins? Certainly not !

TenQ:
You want to convince yourself that the misconception of people that the earth was flat is equivalent to the misconception CAUSED BY Allah!?
No Way!

Kindly tell us how the two misconceptions due to insufficient knowledge different from each other

TenQ:
Human beings FROM inception met the Earth exactly as it was. God did not change ANYTHING about the earth as it has ALWAYS been a sphere.

Yes, it has always been a sphere and God did not change its shape. But people misconceived it to be flat

Similarly, God has always known to BLESS an innocent and righteous soul and God did not change His character. But Christians misconceived the character of God by believing that God can put an innocent and righteous soul under a divine CURSE (Galatians 3:13)

TenQ:
Is it TRUE that the INTERVENTION of Allah in the Crucifixion of Jesus caused your so-called misconception of ALL who love JESUS?

Yes ! This is because NOTHING SEEMS TO HAVE CHANGED since the Crucifixion, both in the Christian and non-Christian worlds. If, according to Christianity, Jesus crucifixion really atoned for the sins of the sinful humanity originated from the disobedience of Adam and his wife then, after the crucifixion; Did tendency to commit sin stop to pass on to the children being born by Christian parents ? Was the punishment prescribed for the Sin abolished ? Did those who believed in Jesus Christ as the ‘Son of God’, if they were women, stop to have painful childbirth (Genesis 3:16) ? Did the believing men start earning their livelihood without exerting manual labour (Genesis 3:17-19) ? If the answer to all of these questions were to be ‘yes,’ then of course there would be some justification in seriously contemplating the Christian philosophy of Sin and Atonement. But Alas, the answer to all these questions are no, no, no and no.
Therefore, If nothing seems to have changed since the Crucifixion, both in the Christian and non-Christian worlds, then what would now be the effect or benefit of sin atonement through Jesus crucifixion ?

TenQ:
Is the OBJECTIVE of DECEPTION not to cause a MISCONCEPTION of the Target?

Without Allah's intervention, would their be a MISCONCEPTION?

Your English is better than this sir!


SUMMARY:
It was a misconception by the people.

I'M SURE YOU KNOW THAT WHEN UNTRUTHS IS QUESTIONED, THE TRUTH IS REVEALED?

1. Was someone else Crucified INSTEAD of Jesus?
2. Who made it that Jesus wasn't Crucified but it Seemed like He was?
3. Who took Jesus to Himself?
4. Where the Apostles, Mary, Jesus Siblings, Disciples, Romans and Jews aware that Allah made a SWITCH and in fact Jesus was taken out of the earth?
5. While Jesus was Alive, was there a Misconception by Mary, the Disciples, the Siblings of Jesus, the followers of Christ, the Jews and the Romans and with the Jews about the whereabout of Jesus?


CAN YOU THEN SHOW THAT THIS MISCONCEPTION WAS NOT CAUSED BY ALLAH?

Are you trying to say that misconception of the ancient people concerning the shape of the Earth was caused by God (by making the Earth to look flat in their eyes) and not caused by their incomplete knowledge ?

Again, are you trying to say that misconception of the evolutionists concerning the origin of man was caused by God (by making human to resemble Africa Apes) and not caused by their incomplete knowledge ?

Don't you know that allowing Jesus to be crucified, despite all his fervent cries and prayers in three different consecutive times (Matthew 26:36-44) in the Garden of Gethsemane is a big slap on the face of God Almighty.

It is totally IRRATIONAL for an innocent, righteous and beloved SON of a merciful and omnipotent FATHER to be under the CURSE of the same father !!!

A good Father is naturally known to always BLESS and never to CURSE his own righteous and beloved son for any reason whatsoever;

Even Paul knew very well that it is IRRATIONAL to believe that Jesus was ACCURSED by God. This is the reason why he contradicts himself by saying as follows;

"Therefore, I want you to understand that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus ACCURSED !” (1st Corinthians 12:3).

Yet the ONLY WAY for Jesus not to become "accursed" was for him NOT to die on the cross since it is clearly written in the the same Bible that ANYONE that is crucified is accursed by God (Deuteronomy 21:23, Galatians 3:13).



Do you believe that God Almighty can SPEAK A LIE in order to resolve one particular problem ? Certainly not ! This is because it is naturally known for God to always SPEAK THE TRUTH and never to speak a lie for any reason whatsoever.

Now, if this is the case, why do you believe that God Almighty can put an innocent and righteous soul (like Jesus) under a CURSE in order to resolve one particular problem ?

God Almighty is naturally known to always BLESS an innocent and righteous soul just like God Almighty is naturally known to always SPEAK THE TRUTH.

If you believe that God cannot speak a lie and you believe that God can put an innocent and righteous soul under His curse, then are you not displaying double standards in your belief regarding the character of God ?

God Almighty can allow an innocent and righteous soul to suffer (i:e experience physical harm) due to one reason or the other. But God Almighty can never allow an innocent and righteous soul to fall under His curse for any reason whatsoever ! This is because God is naturally known to BLESS and never to CURSE an innocent and righteous soul.

TenQ:
Muslims think that because Islam is based on lies and fabrications, Christianity is like that too. Modern day Muslims are looking for ANYTHING they think they can find to discredit the Bible and Salvation in the Eternal Messiah.


TESTIMONIES FROM THE BIBLE
1. Unlike a so-called prophet who alone saw Jubril squeeze him three times and speak to him like a bell, Paul wasn't Evidenced Alone to his conversion:
Acts 9:10-11:
"And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord. And the Lord said to him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and inquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prays,"

Acts 9:15:
"But the Lord said to him, Go your way: for he is a chosen vessel to me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:"

Paul's eyes were opened (for he was blind) by one of the disciples of Christ.

Acts 22:12-13:
"And one Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good report of all the Jews which dwelled there, Came to me, and stood, and said to me, Brother Saul, receive your sight. And the same hour I looked up on him."
Abdulgaffar22 is saying that the "his Messanger of Satan" Paul was healed of blindness by the power of Christ.

This is an INDEPENDENT confirmation outside Paul for his conversion.

2. Unlike a so-called prophet who was given ZERO miracles (as other messangers of God) Just as Other Apostles, Paul was AUTHENTICATED and BACKED UP by Christ with power to Heal, Cast out demons and Miracles.

Acts 13:9-12:
"Then Saul, (who also is called Paul, ) filled with the Holy Ghost, set his eyes on him. And said, O full of all subtlety and all mischief, you child of the devil, you enemy of all righteousness, will you not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord? And now, behold, the hand of the Lord is on you, and you shall be blind, not seeing the sun for a season. And immediately there fell on him a mist and a darkness; and he went about seeking some to lead him by the hand. Then the deputy, when he saw what was done, believed, being astonished at the doctrine of the Lord."

Acts 19:11-13,15-17:
"And God worked special miracles by the hands of Paul: So that from his body were brought to the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them. Then certain of the vagabond Jews, exorcists, took on them to call over them which had evil spirits the name of the LORD Jesus, saying, We adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preaches. … And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are you? And the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, and overcame them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded. And this was known to all the Jews and Greeks also dwelling at Ephesus; [/b]and fear fell on them all, and the name of the Lord Jesus was magnified."


[b]3. Paul was with the Other Apostles of Christ, he was COMMISSIONED by the Apostles and he even at a time rebuked Peter for not doing like Christ as he feared the Jews.

Acts 15:2:
"When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and elders about this question."

Acts 15:22:
"Then pleased it the apostles and elders with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas and Silas, chief men among the brothers:"

Gal 2:11-12:
"But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision."


4. This same Paul was imprisoned several times and finally killed by the Romans for Preaching Christ!


5. The message of Paul was not different from that of the other Apostles:
Acts 26:22-23:
"Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue to this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come: That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should show light to the people, and to the Gentiles."


5. Peter Authenticated the Writings of Paul:

2Pet 3:15:
"And account that the long-suffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given to him has written to you;"


TESTIMONY FROM ISLAMIC SOURCES
Abdulgaffar22 is also basking under the failed euphoria that Christians would never read their hadiths and Tafsirs about this Paul they hate so much. What do the earlier respected Muslims view of this Paul.

Let's hear what they've said.

The basis is Qur'an 36:13-29 where Allah himself speaking about two and a third Messanger that he sent to the companions of a city.

1. According to Bishr b. Mu‘adh- Yazid b. Zuray‘- Sa‘id- Qatadah regarding the following passage: "Spin a parable for them- the inhabitants of the city, when the messengers came to it. When We sent them to men, they declared them liars; so We sent a third as reinforcement. They said, ‘We are assuredly messengers unto you.’" It was mentioned to us that Jesus, the son of Mary, sent two of the apostles to Antioch, a Roman city; but they were declared liars , so he sent a third as reinforcement. They said, "We are assuredly messengers," etc. (The History of Al-Tabari, Volume IV, The Ancient Kingdoms)

Although Ibn Kathir rejects the interpretation that the envoys were the Apostles of Christ, his comments are interesting nonetheless:

<so We reinforced them with a third> means, ‘We supported and strengthened them with a third Messenger.’ Ibn Jurayj narrated from Wahb bin Sulayman, from Shu’ayb Al-Jaba’i, "The names of the first two Messengers were Sham’un and Yuhanna, and the name of the third was Bulus, and the city was Antioch ...

For those who don't know BULUS is the Arabic form for Paul.

2. Al-Suyuti, another renowned exegete, concurs with the Salaf that the three messengers mentioned in S. 36:13-29 were Peter, John and Paul:

Verses 14-27

Narrated Ibn S'âd and Ibn Asakir by the authority of Abi Saleh and Ibn Abbas who said:

There was a one thousand and nine hundred years gap between the time of Moses the son of Imran and Jesus. During which time one thousand prophets were sent to the people of Israel. And there was five hundred and sixty nine years gap between the birth of Jesus and the time of Muhammad. During the first part of this gap, three prophets were sent. The third one of these prophets WAS SIMON.

Narrated Ibn Abi Hatim by the authority of Shuwaib Al Jabâ'ayee who said: The names of the first two messengers were Simon and John. And the name of the third one was Paul.

Narrated Ibn al-Monthere from Saed bin Jubayr who said: The name of the third messenger was Paul.

We might want to ask Muslims how the name of Paul entered their Tafsirs?
https://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/christs_apostles.htm


When ancient old great men of Islam have spoken, modern day baby Muslims begin to speak lies again.

When we ask Muslims questions, they pretend they never saw it.
Repent, turn to the Lord JESUS Christ and be saved.


Your prophet coveted and took the wife of his own adopted son AND then because people were complaining of this EVIL, he ABROGATED Adoption and your God (Allah authorized this great SIN). I pity Zaid, he got no option if he wants to stay alive.

I asked you Muslims important Questions and you ignored it because you are EMBARRASSED by your prophet.

Please, before responding to this, answer this Question:
THE QUESTION:
It is understandable if Allah Deceived the Jews and the Romans. Can you as Muslims please explain the logical reason why Allah Deceived ALSO Mary the Mother of Jesus, all Jesus Disciples, Jesus's Family (brothers and sisters) and all followers and friends of Jesus?

I rest my case

There was a time when all the people of the world believed that Earth is flat in shape due to HOW IT APPEAR PHYSICALLY TO THEIR SENSE OF SIGHT. Yet the Earth is not flat in shape but spherical

Now suppose God sent a prophet to this ancient people . And it was written in a book given to this prophet as follows;

"That they said ( in boast) :Earth is flat in shape. But the Earth is not flat in shape, BUT SO IT WAS MADE TO APPEAR TO THEM. They have no certain knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety, the earth is not flat in shape but spherical".

Based on this fact, Please can we say God Almighty deceived this people into thinking that Earth is flat ? Can we say God stoop to the level of deception by making the Earth to look as being flat in shape IN THE EYES OF THESE ANCIENT PEOPLE?

Another analogy is the case of evolution. Evolutionists believe that human being evolved from great African apes due to vague resemblance between the physical appearance and the DNA of these two species .
Now if God says ; "Human being did not evolve from apes. BUT SO IT WAS MADE TO APPEAR TO THEM"

Can we say God stoop to the level of deception by making the the DNA and physical appearance of apes and human being to look alike in the EYES OF THESE EVOLUTIONISTS ?

All these are not deception on the part of God but MISCONCEPTION DUE TO INCOMPLETE KNOWLEDGE on the part of this ancient people and on the part of evolutionists.

Similar thing occur on the issue of Jesus crucifixion. Almost all the people of the earth including both the Jews and Christians believed that Jesus was crucified due to their INCOMPLETE KNOWLEDGE about what really happened.

This is the reason why Allah says;
"and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with NO CERTAIN KNOWLEDGE, but only conjecture to follow (Qur'an 4:157).

Therefore, Allah's statement "but so it was made to appear to them" that Jesus was crucified is NOT DECEPTION on the part of Allah but MISCONCEPTION DUE TO INCOMPLETE KNOWLEDGE ON THE PART OF THOSE WHO WITNESSED THE EVENT.

MaxInDHouse:
The concept of God, Inspired writings, prophet and religion will make no sense in the absence of demonstrations from adherents or believers! Hebrews 11:1

Whatever we read in BOOKS is not enough to authenticate whatever we claim to believe if our so called faith can't WORK out something worthwhile in the way the so called believers fair in the society. James 2:18-26

In the hears of any right thinking person who has nothing to do with religion all what we read in those books could be likened to common THEORIES just like the theory of evolution. What we claiming believers practice to those who don't have anything to do with our books are like PRACTICAL APPLICATIONS of what we found in our books. But then it's the fine WORKS (FRUIT) that comes as a result of our theories and practical applications which is the BENEFITS that will judge whoever choose to disbelieve the book we claim as God's word.

So my friend whether it's YHWH, Allah, Jupiter, Zeus, Hermes, Krishna, Ọbalúayé or any other God everything we read in books are common fairy tales if there is nothing to write home about as BENEFITS in the way we relate with our neighbours! Mark 12:31

That's why JEHOVAH the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob declared saying:

“You are my witnesses,” “Yes, my servant whom I have chosen, So that you may know and have faith in me And understand that I am the same One. Before me no God was formed, And after me there has been none! Isaiah 43:10

So in the absence of WITNESSES organized throughout the earth doing God's will which is something BENEFICIAL to the entire human race {Isaiah 2:2-4; Micah 4:1-3} ọmọ forget there is no God!

The similitude of a watch tower organization is like the case of of a very generous man that got his wealth through money ritual

THEORY; the origin of the money is evil

PRACTICAL APPLICATION: giving out the money for assistance

BENEFIT: the lives of the orphans, the poor and the widow in his town change for the better

You will agree with me that there is nothing wrong with practical application and benefit. But the THEORY will still cause the man to fall sooner or later.

Similarly, watch tower organization may not have problem with practical application and benefit but their THEORY will still cause the organization to fall sooner or later

This is one the major problems you are having with your theory ;

You are in state of dilemma regarding the Spirit of truth made mentioned by Jesus in John 16:12-13: you don't want to accept this Spirit as the 3rd person of Holy Trinity and you don't want to accept the Spirit as Angel Gabriel that spoke to Muhammad (pbuh). Yet it is certain that this Spirit of truth is not an active force that can neither hear nor speak.

Even, if you think your PRACTICAL APPLICATION and BENEFIT are okay, your THEORY would make you to fall because according to your logic, the THREE must be complete. Beside, the theory is the foundation. If the foundation of a building is very WEAK, then the building would soon collapse no matter how beautiful the building may look in the eyes of its beholders.

@MaxInDHouse ; please carefully read my last message for you below

Unlike the Trinitarians, the Jehovah witnesses do not believe that Jesus is God. However, like other Christian denominations, they also believe that God created everything THROUGH Jesus Christ . They believe that God did not create anything EXCEPT Jesus (the only begotten son : John 3:16) . That is to say: Jehovah created Jesus, and then, acting on the instruction of Jehovah, Jesus created all other things including the heavens and the earth. So according to their claim, Jesus is the immediate Creator of all other things.


That God created everything through Jesus Christ is no where to be found in the Gospel of Matthew, Mark and Luke. It is only found in the books written by Paul and John;


"Yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, THROUGH WHOM ALL THINGS CAME and through whom we live.( 1st Corinthians 8:6)".


For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; ALL THINGS HAVE BEEN CREATED THROUGH him and for him ( Colossians 1:16).


THROUGH him ALL THINGS WERE MADE ; without him nothing was made that has been made (John 1:3)


But is it really true that God assigned the creation of all other things, including the heavens and earth, to Jesus christ ? Let see what God Almighty say about this matter ;


"This is what the LORD says, your Redeemer and the one who formed you in the womb: 'I am the LORD, who has made everything, who ALONE stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth BY MYSELF (WHO WAS WITH ME ?) (Isaiah 44:24 KJV, NWT)


"MY OWN HAND laid the foundations of the earth, and MY RIGHT HAND spread out the heavens; when I summon them, they all stand up together. (Isaiah 48:13)".


It is I who made the earth and created mankind on it. MY OWN HANDS stretched out the heavens; I marshaled their starry hosts (Isaiah 45:12)


"For My HAND made all these things, Thus all these things came into being," declares the LORD ( Isaiah 66:2)


As you can see from above, Paul and John proclaimed that God assigned the creation of all other things to Jesus Christ. But God Almighty declare that He created all things ALL ALONE, BY HIMSELF, BY HIS OWN HANDS AND NOBODY WAS WITH HIM.


What better words do we want God to use before we can believe that He created the heavens and the earth without the assistance of anybody ?



If a man hires a contractor as his agent to build a house, could the man say that he built the house “ALL ALONE” and "BY HIS OWN HANDS" without lying? So could God Almighty have lied about creating the heavens and the earth by His own hands while He actually used another distinct person as His agent to actually do the creation for Him?

Is it even logically right to believe that God assigned the creation of all things to another person other than Himself ?
Let consider the following questions;

1. How do we know that God really exist ? Was it not through His act of creation ?

2. Why does God deserve our worship ? Was it not because He is our creator ?

Does it now make sense to believe that God assigned the creation of all things to another person given that it is through that very act of creation we acknowledged His existence and through it He deserve our worship ?


Honestly, if God really assigned the creation of all things to another person, then "all what that make God to be God" has been given out to that person. Of course, this is impossible because God has declared that He would NEVER give out His glory to another person (Isaiah 48:11, 42:8-9). Yet there is no any God's glory that is greater than the glory of General Creation.


Furthermore, you will agree with me that the reasonable response of the creature is to worship their Creator (Revelation 14:7) . Now if somebody else other than God is our immediate Creator, then that person also deserve our worship. Yet, only God deserve to be worship (Matthew 4:10). This is exactly the reason why God would never assigned the creation of things to any other person other than Himself as He clearly stated above: "BY MYSELF( Isaiah 44:24)".


So apart from Isaiah 44:24, 48:13 and others which make us to know that God did not assign the act of general creation to anybody other than Himself, we also logically know that such kind of assignment is not true because it would be equivalent to God's giving out His Glory to another; something He promised never to do.


But despite all this exegesis, the Jehovah witnesses still insist that God created all other things through Jesus Christ and they even cite Proverbs 8:22-30 to buttress their claim.


But if Jesus was really the master worker ( see Proverbs 8:30 NWT) that Jehovah used to create ALL OTHER THINGS, then all the series of commands causing the heavens, the earth, the light, the animals and the plants into existence should be coming directly from JESUS' MOUTH

But unfortunately, this is not so !


See below what happened during the time of creation;


Genesis 1: 3, 6, 9, 11, 14, 20, 24

1:3 And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light.

1:6 And God said, "Let there be an expanse between the waters to separate water from water."

1:9 And God said, "Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear." And it was so.

1:11 Then God said, "Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds." And it was so.

1:14 And God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark seasons and days and years,

1:20 And God said, "Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the expanse of the sky."

1:24 And God said, "Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: livestock, creatures that move along the ground, and wild animals, each according to its kind." And it was so.

As you can see from above; at the beginning, the heavens, the earth, the animals and plants were created by the series of commands coming out from GOD'S MOUTH: NOT FROM JESUS' MOUTH


So how exactly did God employ Jesus as a master worker of creation ?

Some of the JWs answer this question by saying that Jehovah was only issuing the order and it was Jesus that actually performed the work (Proverbs 8:30 NWT)

But If truly Jehovah was only issuing the order and it was Jesus that actually performed the work, then who supposed to be refreshed and rested from all his work ? Was it not Jesus ?


But see again what the following verses say;

"And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He RESTED on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He RESTED from all His work which God had CREATED and MADE (Genesis 2:2-3)"

"It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel forever; for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day He RESTED and was REFRESHED (Exodus 31:17)".


So why did Jehovah have to REST and REFRESH Himself on the seventh day if it was Jesus that was doing the work and Jehovah was only giving the order ?

In conclusion, Jesus did NOTHING because it was Jehovah that gave those series of commands (Genesis 1:3-26) and it was Jehovah again that did the work because He was the person that need to rest and refresh Himself on the seventh day (Genesis 2:2-3, Exodus 31:17, 20:11).


This is exactly the confirmation of God's word when God said ALL ALONE , by MYSELF (Isaiah 44:24) and with MY OWN HANDS (Isaiah 48:13) did I create the heavens and the earth.


Hence, Proverbs 8:22-30 can only be referring to the wisdom or master plan firstly produced by God before the actual creation of things just like an architect firstly produce a building plan before the actual building of the house. So it was this wisdom or master plan that was personified in this very passage.


Therefore, Paul and John completely got it wrong by asserting that all other things were created through Jesus Christ (1st Corinthians 8:6, Colossians 1:16-17, John 1:3).

No wonder that Gospels of Matthew, Mark and Luke did not mention such thing.

MaxInDHouse:
@ Abdulgaffar

Please don't let my posts stop you from what you're doing because if truly you love God it's good to question all religions that speaks about God. Matthew 7:7-8
But don't allow credulity or nepotism becloud your reasoning because many i tell you will like to know the truth but they will fail to identify it through nepotism {Luke 13:24} as they're only supporting the religion they inherited from their parents instead of questions all what people say about God.

We are JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES, we don't claim that we are perfect but the assurance of pure worship we have it today {Hebrews 11:1} because we have an organization of imperfection humans who are fulfilling what God promised that will happen in the last days {Isaiah 2:2-4; Micah 4:1-3} as for the Bible and Jesus ọmọ both would have been ordinary book with a fairytale if these things aren't happening now in our generation! Luke 21:33

May you have PEACE!

Bible recorded that the number of Jesus apostles was somehow fixed to be twelve (Matthew 10:2-7, 19:28, Revelation 21:14). Therefore, when Judas Iscariot fell out and there was need for replacement and restoration of original twelve, then one would expect the divine plan to unfold in such a way that original apostles would be pre-informed by Jesus (pbuh) to exercise patience and wait till someone like Paul repents. But instead of waiting for Paul, Matthias was chosen to replace Judas under the act of divine guidance (Acts 1:20-26). This proves again that apostleship of Paul was not even recognized in heaven. Yet Paul repeatedly called himself an apostle of true Jesus Christ at the beginning of most of his letters.

MaxInDHouse:
Christianity totally differs from your Islam don't think Christianity support any attack on anyone because Christ told them to love their neighbours as themselves {Mark 12:31} love their fellow Christians just as he love them {John 13:34-35} and love their enemies {Matthew 5:43-48} this is unlike your religion where intolerance is on the loose.
Whoever fails to love the way Jesus taught can never have anything in the kingdom of God, that's what Jesus taught them! John 15:11-15

So it's the common Jews who killed Jesus that were targeting Paul and it's because they don't want to humbly accept the fact that their pride has nothing to do with Christ since he has come to establish God's Kingdom where all the people on planet earth must live as equals no domination as those murderous Jews were anticipating.

Learn to know the difference between true Christians and false religions today:
No Christian must lift up his hand to strike his fellowman neither join in any form of protest against their fellowman, Jesus Christ forbids his disciples from doing any of these whatever makes anyone think of hurting his fellowman for any reason whatsoever such a person has disown Christianity! Matthew 26:52; Luke 9:51-56

You said above that it's the common Jews who killed Jesus that were targeting Paul.

Please read what James and the elders said to Paul when he got to Jerusalem ;

When they heard this, they praised God. Then they said to Paul: “You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed, and all of them are zealous for the law.They have been informed that you teach all the Jews who live among the Gentiles to turn away from Moses telling them not to circumcise their children or live according to our customs.(AH) What shall we do? They will certainly hear that you have come, so do what we tell you. There are four men with us who have made a vow. Take these men, join in their purification rites and pay their expenses, so that they can have their heads shaved. Then everyone will know there is no truth in these reports about you, but that you yourself are living in obedience to the law (Acts 21:20-24)

Many thousands of Jews mentioned above are obviously Christian Jews. Yet you're claiming that they were common Jews. Please let us try to be sincere in our argument.

MaxInDHouse:
Ọmọ don't argue blindly nah!

I quoted what happened for you to see for yourself that the matter of circumcision caused a great dissension among the first century Christians and Paul with Barnabas were sent to go and find out what the apostles will say about the matter.

Please if your clerics told you anything against Paul know today that i've heard much more than you do when i was still a Muslim so i know they're lying to you. Paul was attacked by the Jews for the same reason those racists attacked and killed Jesus of Nazareth!

Honestly, you are just lumping things together because the Jews that made an attempt to kill Jesus were ordinary Jews but the Jews that vowed to kill Paul were Christian Jews who were with James and elders in Jerusalem

MaxInDHouse:
Act 23:12

Those Jews don't have God's LOVE in their hearts neither do they love their neighbours {Mark 12:28-31} rather they're only zealous for tradition that's dead already {Romans 10:1-3} if circumcision is a must the God of Israel will fight for Himself to keep it whether some accept it or not!

Have you forgotten that Jews in question are believers in Christ whose their faith in Christ were confirmed by James and the elders ? See the verse below

"The next day Paul and the rest of us went to see James, and all the elders were present.
Then they said to Paul: “You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed, and all of them are zealous for the law (Matthew 21:18-19)

If the apostles and the elders have also condemned the act of circumcision like Paul did, then why these Jews not attacking them as they made an attempt to attack Paul ?

Paul is the only person that condemned the act of circumcision by saying "Christ will profit you nothing if you become circumcised".

Apostles and elders only agreed that circumcision is not compulsory for the Gentile believers in Christ(see Acts 15:19-21). They could not have uttered such a negative statement (like that of Paul) against circumcision, the everlasting convenant of God

MaxInDHouse:
The Jews only wanted to kill Paul for just one reason:
He is uniting both Jews and gentiles to LOVE one another as brothers in Christianity which is the motive why God sent the Christ {Isaiah 2:2-4} while those racist Jews were anticipating world domination under the Messiah. Act 1:6-8

When Jesus refused to act in line with their racist motives {John 6:15} they schemed to kill him {John 7:1} that's why they rejected Jesus when Pilate called him "the king of the Jews" {John 19:14-15} they killed Jesus mercilessly due to the LOVE he had for people in general!

The scripture they are expecting Jesus to fulfill is Daniel 2:44, they wanted him to kill all their enemies so Jews can dominate the world.

So it's exactly the same reason they killed Jesus of Nazareth that those murderous Jews were planning to kill Paul even though he was one of them nursing the same intention before his conversion to Christianity! Galatians 1:13-14

May you have PEACE!

You are claiming in the bolded statement above that the sole reason why the Jews wanted to kill Paul is because he was uniting both the Jews and Gentiles together.

So are you saying the Jews are only telling lies when they proclaimed in Matthew 21:18-28 that Paul was teaching against the law of Moses?

If you believe that the Jews are only lying, then have you forgotten what Paul himself wrote about the law ? See the quotation again ;

"For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility (Ephesians 2:14-16 )"



"But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code (Romans 7:6)"

So the Jews are perfectly right in their claim in Matthew 21:18-28 that Paul is teaching against the law of Moses. This is very clear and it's the main reason why they wanted to kill Paul. The reason is not for uniting both the Jews and Gentiles together
You just deliberately choose to defend Paul in order to protect your faith from being jeopardize

Paul was also caught lying red handed
in two different instances ;

First instance of lying

Paul was accused of teaching all the Jews among the Gentiles to forsake circumcision and the Law of Moses. Read below ;


"The next day Paul and the rest of us went to see James, and all the elders were present.
Then they said to Paul: “You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed, and all of them are zealous for the law.They have been informed that you teach all the Jews who live among the Gentiles to turn away from Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or live according to our customs..............................When the seven days were nearly over, some Jews from the province of Asia saw Paul at the temple. They stirred up the whole crowd and seized him, shouting, “Fellow Israelites, help us! This is the man who teaches everyone everywhere against our people and our Law and this place. And besides, he has brought Greeks into the temple and defiled this holy place.” (Acts 21:18-28)


But when Paul was brought forward before the chief Priest and all the members of Sanhedrin to speak over this very accusation, he now proclaimed that he was being accused by the Jews for the hope of resurrection of the dead ; See below


"The commander wanted to find out exactly why Paul was being accused by the Jews. So the next day he released him and ordered the chief priests and all the members of the Sanhedrin to assemble. Then he brought Paul and had him stand before them. Paul looked straight at the Sanhedrin and said, “My brothers, I have fulfilled my duty to God in all good conscience to this day.” At this the high priest Ananias ordered those standing near Paul to strike him on the mouth.Then Paul said to him, “God will strike you, you whitewashed wall! You sit there to judge me according to the law, yet you yourself violate the law by commanding that I be struck! Those who were standing near Paul said, “How dare you insult God’s high priest!". Paul replied, “Brothers, I did not realize that he was the high priest; for it is written: ‘Do not speak evil about the ruler of your people. Then Paul, knowing that some of them were Sadducees and the others Pharisees, called out in the Sanhedrin, “My brothers, I am a Pharisee, descended from Pharisees. I stand on trial because of the hope of the resurrection of the dead.” When he said this, a dispute broke out between the Pharisees and the Sadducees, and the assembly was divided. (The Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, and that there are neither angels nor spirits, but the Pharisees believe all these things.)(Acts 22:30- 23:9).

Paul deliberately fabricated this lie after perceiving that some members of Sanhedrin are Pharisees (who believe in resurrection) while some are Sadducees (who do not believe in resurrection)


Second instance of lying

Similarly, instead of telling the reason why he was being accused by the Jews when the King Agrippa sincerely asked Paul about the same accusation, Paul proclaimed again that he was being accused for the hope of the promise made by God to raise the dead and for the fact that he advised people to repent and turn to God. Read below ;

"And now it is because of my hope in what God has promised our ancestors that I am on trial today. This is the promise our twelve tribes are hoping to see fulfilled as they earnestly serve God day and night. King Agrippa, it is because of this hope that these Jews are accusing me.Why should any of you consider it incredible that God raises the dead? (Acts 26:6-9)"………............."So then, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the vision from heaven. First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and then to the Gentiles, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and demonstrate their repentance by their deeds.That is why some Jews seized me in the temple courts and tried to kill me. (Acts 26:19-21)".


The two answers given by Paul to all the members of Sanhedrin and to the King Agrippa are nothing but outright lies. Paul was never accused for the hope of promise made by God to raise the dead (i:e the resurrection) nor accused for the fact that he asked people to repent and turn to God. He was only accused for teaching all the Jews among the Gentiles to forsake circumcision and the Law of Moses as you see in the quotation above.



In fact, Paul himself admitted that he was crafty and that he caught people by deceit ;

"But be it so, I did not burden you. Nevertheless, being crafty, I caught you by deceit (2nd Corinthians 12:16)".

Other versions says " I caught you with guile" or "I caught you by trickery"


Yet, the scriptures says ;


"The Lord hates the bloodthirsty and deceitful man (Psalms 5:6)


Cursed is he who does the work of the Lord deceitfully (Jeremiah 48:10 KJV)


See how all the points of evidence explained above support the fact that the bright light that revealed himself to Paul on his way to Damascus was not Jesus Christ but Satan in disguise

MaxInDHouse:
You missed the point!

According to what God told Abraham (before the law was written) who ever want to receive part of the blessings God promised Abraham such a person must become circumcised himself and all members of his household!
But when the law was written it's only the Israelites and whoever wants to become a worshiper of their God. Jesus was circumcised as a baby {Luke 1:59; Leviticus 12:3} after Jesus' death, resurrection and ascension to heaven some gentiles wanted to become Christians but some Jewish Christians insisted that those gentiles must first be circumcised before they can acknowledge these gentiles as worshipers of the God of Abraham. This led to a great argument among the Christians so the brothers sent Paul and Barnabas to the Apostles and elders in Jerusalem over this matter, {Act 15:1-2} after thorough meditation on how Jesus dealt with everyone during his ministry and the study on the scriptures the Apostles and elders in Jerusalem concluded that circumcision is no longer compulsory for any adult but you can circumcise your baby at birth since you are old now, they sent Paul and Barnabas back to deliver this message to all Christians throughout the earth. Act 15:20-29

So was it Paul that made that decision or the Apostles who has been with Jesus himself?

Please tell me one single law that Paul contradicted because if you're talking about circumcision it's the Apostles in Jerusalem that gave the order not Paul!

Concluding that an act is no longer compulsory is completely different from forbidding it.

It's very clear that Paul completely forbid the act of circumcision by saying " if you become circumcised, CHRIST WILL PROFIT YOU NOTHING"(Galatians 5:2-4).

This is the reason why the Jewish Christians in Jerusalem bound themselves with oath that they will never eat nor drink until they kill Paul (Acts 23:12-14).

Please show me where the Jewish Christians in
Jerusalem bound themselves with oath that they will never eat nor drink until they kill the apostles and the elders as they vowed to kill Paul.

MaxInDHouse:
Do you know the LAWS at all?
If so just point out one and let's see how Paul contradicted it!

Despite the fact that circumcision is an everlasting covenant of God for the Jews i:e the Israelites (Genesis 17:9-14) and Jesus himself was also circumcised (Luke 2:21).

Yet Paul went ahead to write as follows:

“Indeed, I Paul say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. And I testify again to every man who become circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. You have become estranged (i.e. cut off ) from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by the law; you have fallen from grace (Galatians 5:2-4)”.

The term “every man” used by Paul in the verse quoted above is indisputable evidence that he condemned the act of circumcision for both Jews and Gentiles. This is the reason why the Jewish Christians in Jerusalem bound themselves with oath that they will never eat nor drink until they kill Paul (Acts 23:12-14).

In fact, this single fact alone that Paul condemn the act of circumcision, an everlasting covenant of God, is another prove that “the bright light from heaven” that appeared to Paul on his road to Damascus was a false Christ

MaxInDHouse:
So tell me one single law Paul contradicted!

Not a single law he contradicted. Paul contradicted all the law.

Compare the statements of Paul below with statements utter by Jesus ;


For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility (Ephesians 2:14-16 )"

"But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code (Romans 7:6)"

VERSUS


Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: "The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach (Matthew 23:1-3)

Do not think I have come to abolish the law. I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven (Matthew 5:17-20)

What else do you want. Are these set of contradictory statements not clear enough ?

MaxInDHouse:
TRINITY is unchristian but then you should know that whatever anyone say people can twist it to support idolatry. For instance my own uncle cut a tree and made an idol from it only to quote the Bible in support of what he did!
And do you know what he quoted?
Well there's a verse that called YHWH "Ọlọ́run owú" meaning "Jealous God" but my uncle cut a tree known as "igi owú" to make the image so he said his idol is not evil because it was made from owú tree and the Bible God called himself "God of owú"

What Paul meant their is that God wants all his worshipers to be perfect just as He is perfect {Leviticus 19:2 compare to Matthew 5:48} and God presented Jesus as the perfect role model through whom we can gain perfection {Matthew 17:5 compare to Deuteronomy 18:15} that's what Paul meant.

Now regarding what John the apostle wrote @ John 1:1

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god"

This simple means that in time past God gave Jesus (who was a spirit being back then) to act like a god in doing certain things just as the same God did with Moses {Exodus 7:1} that's why God told the Israelites through Moses that another prophet will arise (among their brothers) who will also be a prophet and God at the same time like Moses {Deuteronomy 18:18} and God swear in His anger that whoever ignored this prophet will be cut off from among His people {Deuteronomy 18:19} because they can't live by the Torah perfectly unless a perfect man like Jesus come to teach them how they can gain perfection through the Torah!

the fact that Paul contradicts true Jesus (pbuh) on many important issues is even enough to prove that the revelation he claimed to receive was from fake Jesus Christ.
For example, Jesus (pbuh) said the Old testament laws are still valid and he did not come to abolish them;

Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven (Matthew 5:17-20)


It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the least stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law (Luke 16:17)


"Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: "The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach (Matthew 23:1-3)"

Please see the last passage above how Jesus asked the crowds and his disciples to do everything they were told by the Pharisees and the teachers of the law which shows that Jesus (pbuh) did not come to abolish the law ( either directly or indirectly in any event) as he rightly said in Matthew 5:17 quoted above ;Do not think that I have come to abolish the law

Yet despite this Jesus' declaration, Paul proclaimed as follows ;

"For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility (Ephesians 2:14-16 )"

In another place, Paul declared ;

"But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code (Romans 7:6)"


It is very clear in all these verses that Paul proclaimed that Jesus came to abolish the law. Whereas Jesus himself declared that do not think I have come to abolish the law (Matthew 5:17); this is the reason why he asked the crowds and his disciples to do everything they were told by the teachers of the law because they were the people that sit in Moses' seat (Matthew 23:1-3)

In fact, a stage was reached when the Jewish Christians in Jerusalem overheard that Paul is teaching against the law of Moses--the very law that Jesus himself commanded the disciples to uphold. See the passage below ;



"When we arrived at Jerusalem, the brothers and sisters received us warmly. The next day Paul and the rest of us went to see James, and all the elders were present. Paul greeted them and reported in detail what God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry. When they heard this, they praised God. Then they said to Paul: “You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed, and all of them are zealous for the law. They have been informed that you teach all the Jews who live among the Gentiles to turn away from Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or live according to our customs. What shall we do? They will certainly hear that you have come, so do what we tell you. There are four men with us who have made a vow. Take these men, join in their purification rites and pay their expenses, so that they can have their heads shaved. Then everyone will know there is no truth in these reports about you, but that you yourself are living in obedience to the law (Acts 21:17-24)"


As you can see from above, even after Jesus' departure, James and all the Christian elders in Jerusalem still uphold the ceremonial law of Moses by observing purification rituals like vow making and head shaving. And they find it difficult to believe that Paul was teaching against the law. They rather wanted to believe that Paul himself is living in obedience to the law.

But as we can see from the two veses quoted above (Ephesians 2:14-16, Romans 7:6), what the Jewish Christians learnt about Paul (that he is teaching against the law) is perfectly true. However, James and the elders believed otherwise simply because they were not opportune to read most of Paul's letters circulating among the Gentiles since they spent most of their time in Jerusalem.

MaxInDHouse:
@ Abdulgaffar

You truly have a point with this thread but you missed something really vital:
The spirit person that appeared to Paul directed him to the disciples of Jesus Christ for further instructions unlike most religions today will claim that their founder has met Jesus then a new religion will be established in the name of Jesus and the contradictions start to abound. Paul met a spirit person but he was told to go and meet the disciples of Jesus Christ who already had everything Jesus taught them. So all that Paul is expected to do in their midst is how to help none Jews grasp what Jesus taught his Jewish disciples for the congregation to continue growing globally as one big and happy family of peace loving worshipers under One organization! John 17:20-23 compare to Isaiah 2:2-4; Zephaniah 3:9

God bless you and may you have PEACE!

Are you saying God or Jesus was the one who inspired Paul to write that "all the fullness of God dwell in the body of Christ (Colossians 1:19, 2:9) thereby giving the Trinitarian Christians the opportunity to accept Jesus as God ?

MaxInDHouse:
Jesus and Satan are from the same person: GOD
So both of them can appear exactly the same way but it's the motive that matters not their appearance.
For your information all angelic sons of God (including Satan) are referred to as morning Stars {Job 38:7} while Jesus called himself the bright morning Star {Revelations 22:16} so they can appear exactly the same way only their motive differs!

If Jesus and Satan can appear exactly the same way as you claimed, then you have to accept that the bright light that revealed himself to Paul was Satan and not Jesus. This is because Jesus has commanded the disciples to disbelieve in any private appearances of Christ after his departure using repeatedly the phrase "if anyone" which means without exception (Matthew 24:23-28)

Dtruthspeaker:
Do you have discussions with mad people?

Obviously, Muslims do not interact else they would have seen that whatever they say has been said before by a stupid mad Muslim earlier whom we have answered before.

You have come again with your abusive words. Instead of you to do copy and paste or give reference for the answer to those questions, your last resort is to address a fellow human like you with madness. Well I will not retaliate. Let's leave everything till the day of Judgement and we will clearly see who is really afflicted with madness

MaxInDHouse:
Regarding apostle Paul Jesus handed over the conversion of people from other nations to him {Act 9:15} so everything Paul taught about Jesus of Nazareth is authentic and could be firmly established in what the prophets wrote before Jesus!

So you believe that Jesus can still privately appear to someone like Paul after commanding the disciples to disbelieve in such private appearances ( Matthew 24:23-28)?
Again, you believe that Jesus can emulate Satan by appearing in the same form of lightning usually taken by Satan (Luke 10:18, Isaiah 14:12) ?

MaxInDHouse:
Whenever i come across threads like this i can only laugh at the misinformation of those who aren't knowledgeable yet claiming they're disciples of the most wonderful counselor of all time: Jesus of Nazareth! Isaiah 9:6

Well it's true that Jesus was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel and it's the lost sheep of the house of Israel that are expected to go and declare what God's only begotten Son taught them to the nation.
That's why Jesus chose apostle Paul (a Jew) vast in knowledge of different cultures as an elite to take Christianity to other nations. Act 9:15

So i will break it down as one of the Witnesses of Jesus of Nazareth! Act 1:8

The promise of a Messiah was to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob so only their descendants will have a direct access to the Christ {Isaiah 9:6} while all other nations must hold onto what the Jews got from the Christ {Zechariah 8:23} that's why Jesus sent his disciples to go only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel {Matthew 10:6} the Jews are the first in God's plan to be blessed with the presence of the Christ so when a Phoenician woman wanted to tap from that blessing (supernatural gifts) Jesus openly told her that presently it's only for the Israelites {Matthew 15:24} but then believing Jews will have to take this blessings to other nations, that's why Jesus never had a direct dealing with people of other nations when choosing his Apostles Jesus chose only JEWS!

Regarding apostle Paul Jesus handed over the conversion of people from other nations to him {Act 9:15} so everything Paul taught about Jesus of Nazareth is authentic and could be firmly established in what the prophets wrote before Jesus!

Look at the bolded statement above, you have stylishly changed the word of Jesus. Jesus did not tell the woman that "his message is presently meant for the Israelites and later for the Gentiles"

Jesus simply said " I was sent only to the Israelites".

If Jesus' mission is for the Jews first and later to the Gentiles, then he would have simply told the woman that "it is not yet time for the Gentiles". But Jesus didn't say such statement.

Righteousness2:
My Brother , Leave all these all epistles and documentary. They have Nothing to do for your life.

What you , I and all of Humanity need to know is that
JESUS CHRIST is the Savior of the World.
Only through JESUS CHRIST we will be Saved and make Eternal life.
Any other grammar or foundation is false.

If Eternal life in Heaven matters to you, You Must Belive on JESUS Christ as Your Lord and Savior.

You must repent from your Sins , confess them and Surrender to the Lordship of JESUS Christ.

My Brother, outside this, if you like Fast 365 days,
If you like be righteous and be nice and all that, it is a waste.

Any Righteousness not built on JESUS Christ is a Waste !

Actually, I don't want to digress from the topic of discussion. But since you are making a baseless claim, please juxtapose what you have written up there with Jesus statement ;

"I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel (Matthew 15:24"

FreeIgboho:
No need to say “peace be upon him” after mentioning Lord Jesus. He is Peace Himself.
He is not like Mohammed, Moses, who were only humans

Please make your comment on the topic of the post. Don't distract our attention. Thanks

After the departure of Jesus (peace be upon him) from this world, a bright light from heaven that called himself Jesus of Nazareth flashed around a man called Paul (whose original name was Saul) on his way to Damascus;


"About noon as I came near Damascus, suddenly a bright light from heaven flashed around me. I fell to the ground and heard a voice say to me, ‘Saul! Saul! Why do you persecute me?’ Who are you, Lord?’ I asked. “ ‘I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom you are persecuting,’ he replied. My companions saw the light, but they did not understand the voice of him who was speaking to me (Acts 22:6-9)"



But did Paul (Saul) truly meet the original Jesus Christ (pbuh) on his way to Damascus ?


Let's consider the following points of evidence ;

1ST POINT OF EVIDENCE

Before Jesus (pbuh) left the surface of the earth, he forewarned the original apostles as follows:


"Take heed that no one deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying; I am the Christ; and shall deceive many (Matthew 24:4-5)…


“Then if anyone says here is Christ or there, do not believe it. For false christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. See, I have told you ahead of time. So if anyone tells you; Christ is out in the wilderness, do not go out; or Christ is in the inner rooms, do not believe it. For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the son of Man. Wherever there is a carcass, then the vultures will gather (Matthew 24:23-28)"


[Please take note of how the phrase "if anyone (which means without exception)" is being used repeatedly by Jesus in the verses above.]


“Watch out that you are not deceived. For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am he,’ and, ‘The time is near.’ Do not follow them Luke 21:8-9).


Jesus said to them: “Watch out that no one deceives you. Many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am he,’ and will deceive many (Mark 13:5-6)


In all the verses above, the disciples are commanded by Jesus(pbuh) not to believe in any account of a person who claim to have seen Jesus in a private manner prior to his universally-visible appearance to all. Jesus(pbuh) was telling us that his returning to earth again from heaven will be clear and unmistakable to everyone. That is to say, Jesus will be visible to every eye from every corner of the world in the same way that lightning that comes from the east is visible to those in the West . The people would gather to see Jesus coming from the heaven just like vultures gather over the carcass. Hence, any private appearances of Jesus to anyone or to only a few set of people before this universally public appearance should be ignored and discarded


Therefore, if Jesus’ private appearance to Paul in form of “a bright light from heaven" on his way to Damascus would be an exception to this great warning of not believing in private appearances of Christ, then Jesus (pbuh)should have foretold this exceptional event to the original apostles before he ascended to heaven. However, Jesus (pbuh) did not foretell anything like such.


2ND POINT OF EVIDENCE

Instead of foretelling to the original apostles that he would privately appear to someone like Paul in form of a bright light from heaven” before his universally-visible appearance to all, Jesus only informed them as follows;


"And he said unto them, “I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven (Luke10:18 KJV)".


That is to say, Jesus saw Satan in a form of a lightening falling from heaven. This is the appearance usually taken by Satan and this is the main reason why he was called Lucifer (which means light-bearer or morning star or shining one ) in Isaiah 14:12 KJV

[Lucifer is a combination of [lūx (light) + ferō (bear, carry) in Latin language]


But is it really reasonable to believe that it was Satan, and not Jesus, that revealed himself to Paul in form of lightning from heaven? Yes, it is not only reasonable but also provable by combining together the three strong facts below ;


1. Jesus has already forewarned the original apostles not to believe in any account of a person proclaiming private appearance of Christ, using repeatedly the phrase if anyone.... (which means without exception -see Matthew 24:23-28 quoted above)



2. If Jesus really foretold that he beheld Satan in a form of lightning fall from heaven (Luke 10:18 KJV), then Jesus would never emulate Satan by appearing in the same form to any chosen apostle. Yet it was the same lightning (i:e bright light) from heaven that revealed himself to Paul on his road to Damascus (see Acts 22:6-9 quoted above).



3. Matthew 24:36 clearly shows that Jesus does not know the actual day which general resurrection will take place and again Mark 11:12-14 clearly revealed that Jesus did not know that a distant fig tree had no fruits (until he reached the tree) which all implies that Jesus cannot be God who always has a perfect knowledge about all things.

Yet contrary to this basic fact, Paul indirectly proclaimed that Jesus is God by stating that all the fullness of God ( i:e the whole of divine nature) dwell in the body of Jesus Christ (Colossians 1:19, 2:9).

Hence stylishly, Paul caused the christians to commit the sin of idolatry by giving them the opportunity to take Jesus (who is only a man-- Acts 2:22) as a divine God.



See how all the evidence explained above support the fact that the bright light that revealed himself to Paul on his way to Damascus was not Jesus Christ but Satan in disguise - a ravening wolf that came in sheep's clothing (Matthew 7:15).


But despite this satanic delusion experienced by Paul, almost half of the books (13 out of 27) found in the New Testament were written by him alone.


Look at the foundation upon which the edifice of Christianity is erected !


This is the top secret that is clearly depicted in the Bible but which is still unknown to many Christians

"The next day as they were leaving Bethany, Jesus was hungry. Seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to find out if it had any fruit. When he reached it, he found nothing but leaves, because it was not the season for figs. Then he said to the tree, “May no one ever eat fruit from you again.” And his disciples heard him say it." (Mark 11:12-14)"


According to theory of incarnation and hypostatic union, Jesus was both human and God at the same time during his mission on the surface of the Earth. Therefore, if the fact that Jesus was hungry (as stated in the book of Mark above) reflected his human nature, then similarly his divine nature should be reflected by the fact that Jesus knows everything. However, this is not the case!

It is very clear from the passage above that Jesus didn't know that the fig tree had no fruits until he reached the tree. Yet one of the indisputable attributes of God is having a perfect knowledge about all things.


In the light of this very evidence, how can any Christian reasonably believe that Jesus is God ? Or are we to assume that his divine nature was absent from him during the time he saw the fig tree at a distance ?

Some Christians argue that Jesus did not know that fig tree had no fruits because he deliberately chose to limit his knowledge about the fig tree (just like someone who has the ability to walk deliberately choose to be crippled)


Does this make any sense to you ?


For what reason would God deliberately choose to limit His unlimited knowledge about some certain things ?


How could all-knowing God deliberately choose to be ignorant of what He has already known beforehand ?


Through what way or in what manner can such a level of ignorance be attained by omniscient God ?


However, such a glaring absurdity must be invented and accepted by the Christians in order to save their highly-valued belief in divinity of Jesus Christ from being jeopardized!

1. Nobody can deny the fact that some things (like stars, sun, moon, trees, water, mountains, animals, human beings etc) exist right now.

2. These very things that exist right now can never originate or came from absolute nothing. This is because out of absolute nothing, nothing comes (i:e 0+0+0+0+0........=0). In other words, absolute nothing cannot manipulate itself to become something

3. Therefore, if some things exist right now and these things can never originate or came from absolute nothing, then at least, one something that has no beginning must always exist

4. This very something that has no beginning is what believers depicted as "God" and unbelievers or atheists depicted as "nature". Therefore, either God or nature must always exist without having no beginning. Hence, which one always exist without beginning; God or nature ? Let's proceed

5. Anything that change must definitely have a beginning. See the reason below ;

(i). A "change" always involve a transformation from "ORIGINAL STATE" to a "NEW STATE" in relation to time

(ii). Therefore, for a change to occur, the time frame required for the "original state" of an entity to exist must have been completed or finished. Otherwise, the "new state" would never begin to exist

(iii). Hence, if the time frame required for the "original state" of an entity to exist have been completed or finished, then such entity could not have been in existence for an infinite time.

(iv). And if an entity could not have been in existence for an infinite time, then such entity must began to exist

(v). So anything that change must definitely have a beginning

6. But it is an undeniable fact that "nature" is constantly changing from one state to another (e.g from day to night, from rainy season to dry season, from non-living matter to living matter etc). Therefore, nature must definitely have a beginning. Hence, following from step (4) above, the only entity that has no beginning and therefore can never change is God ;

"For I am the Lord. I change not (Malachi 3:6)".

"You will not find a change in Our ways (Qur'an 17:77)"

7. Now if something (i:e God) that has no beginning cannot change, then anything that change must definitely have a beginning and therefore cannot be God.

8. Therefore, if Jesus who was previously existing in heaven (according to Orthodox Christianity) later CHANGE to become a "MAN" walking on the surface of the Earth, then from what is explained above, Jesus (or any other entity that also change) cannot be God.

Of course, Bible itself confirm this obvious truth ;

As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. “Good teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?” Jesus answered “Why do you call me good? No one is good—except God alone (Mark 10:17-18)

Look how Jesus rejected being called good and then acknowledged that only God is deserved to be called good.

See how both the logic and the scripture prove that Jesus cannot be God.

What can be more clearer than this ?

Steep:
That a man who can both fly and walk chose to walk does not mean his ability to fly disappeared.
Jesus is both man and God he can choose to display his humanity or his divinity.
Jesus can choose to be all knowing or he can chose to limit his knowledge.
To your question, omniscience is an attribute of God and also limited knowledge is an attribute of man, I am not saying Jesus was all knowing and not unknowing at the same time but rather he had both abilityat the same time and could manifest whichever he would.

How can you possess two opposing abilities at the same time ? Is either Jesus is God (having unlimited knowledge) or Jesus is human (having limited knowledge). He cannot be both God and human at the same time. Take it or leave it

Steep:
The evidence of his divinity is also in the scripture.
The people around Jesus saw him do, teach the way a mortal man can not.

Luke 5:20 And when he saw their faith, he said unto him, Man, thy sins are forgiven thee.

Luke 5:21 And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, Who is this which speaketh blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?

The pharisee knew that only God can forgive sin, yet Jesus forgive sin.

Jesus called himself the "I AM" which is an exclusive name of God.

John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

So there is sufficient proof of both Jesus humanity and divinity in the bible.

Do you know where the problem lies ? There are some verses in the same Bible that has nothing to do with Jesus humanity but simply appear to disprove his divinity.

For example ;
1. why did Jesus refer to God the Father as the only true God in John 17:3 if Jesus is also a member of a triune God ?

2. Why did God the Father declared in "Isaiah 44:6 that there is no God besides Me" if Jesus is God and he is obviously different from God the Father ?


3. Why did Jesus reject being called good and then stated that only God is good in Mark 10:18 ?

4. Why did Jesus clearly distinguish himself from God by saying believe in God and believe also in me in John 14:1 ?

5. Why did Jesus not clearly mentioned in Mark 12:29 that God is triune in nature rather than re-establishing the Jewish belief that God is one as mentioned in Deuteronomy 6:4 ?

Besides, how can the same person be All-knowing and still possessing limited knowledge at the same time. Such attributes are contradictory ! They cannot exist together in the same person at the same time. One must disappear in order for the other to stay in one person. Or else you want to say that Jesus is composed of two different persons in which one person posses unlimited knowledge and the other person possess limited knowledge.

Steep:
If you have the ability to fly and walk but you choses to walk does that mean you have lost the ability to fly?
That Jesus chose to limit himself to his humanity does not mean the absence of his divinity.

Yes, you can choose to walk when you have the ability to fly.

But when your ability to fly is highly expected and required (to convince the people who has never seen you flying) and you still choose to walk, then your ability to fly would be questionable.

Of course, we have all accepted that Jesus was a human being. The bone of contention is his divinity. However, when the evidence for his divinity (that Jesus is really an omniscient God) is highly expected and required to be displayed, the scripture (Mark 11:12-14) only give the evidence for his humanity at the expense of his divinity.

Steep:
When God took on the form of man he didn't cease from being God.
When you put on clothes do you stop being a human being, does that reduce or increase your humanity?

Same way when God became man it didn't add or remove his divine nature.

Remember what you stated up there ; the fact that God became man didn't remove his divine nature. Hence, if Jesus was still having his divine nature during his mission on the Earth, why he didn't know that fig tree had no fruits ? Or his divine nature was absent from him during that very period of time ?

Steep:
When God took on the form of man he didn't cease from being God.
When you put on clothes do you stop being a human being, does that reduce or increase your humanity?

Same way when God became man it didn't add or remove his divine nature.

"12 The next day as they were leaving Bethany, Jesus was hungry. 13 Seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to find out if it had any fruit. When he reached it, he found nothing but leaves, because it was not the season for figs. 14 Then he said to the tree, “May no one ever eat fruit from you again.” And his disciples heard him say it." (Mark 11:12-14)



According to theory of incarnation and hypostatic union, Jesus was both human and God at the same time during his mission on the surface of the Earth. Therefore, if the fact that Jesus was hungry (as stated in the passage above) reflected his human nature, then similarly his divine nature should be reflected by the fact that Jesus knows everything. However, this is not the case!

It is very clear from the passage above that Jesus didn't know whether the fig tree had fruits or not until he reached the tree. Yet one of the indisputable attributes of God is having a perfect knowledge about all things.

In the light of this very evidence, how can anyone reasonably believe that Jesus is God ?