Lukuluku69:


Bros do this below

1. Quote the Text of the Quran in relation to the Kaaba.

2. Quite the Hadith you have in relation to the Black Stone.

Don't jumble them together. Do that and let us see. Leave the commentaries for those are human minds. They could be right and they could be wrong.

Major7:






Forget it bro, that's what they like to do, pick up someone to argue with just to calm their troubled souls

TenQ:

Unfortunately for you, the subject of my topic is NOT about the Kaaba. My subject is the Blackstone which happens to be in the Kaaba.

I have quoted many Qur'an, Hadith and Tafsirs for you about the BLACKSTONE.


Why is it difficult to answer the question:

The QUESTION:
1. Can Muslims explain on the contrary why the black stone may not be equivalent to Magical Charms?
2. Can Muslims explain WHY they point to or kiss/or touch the black stone as part of their religious activities during their pilgrimage?

Did you see anything about the Kaaba in these two questions?

Please answer them.

TenQ:
Check below, I have Quoted both the Qur'an, Tafsirs and the Hadiths with respect to Idolatry and the Black stone in Islam.

I didn't put a single bible verse o! LOL


Check the dogo turenchi I posted, it contains several Qur'an , Tafsirs and Hadiths.

Let me repost them as I am Sure you didn't read my dogo turenchi. LOL!

This time, I will remove the quotes so that you can read carefully.


Islamic Idolatry

For a religion who claims to practice the STRICTEST Monotheism, would it surprise you that both Mohammed AND Muslims are Idolaters?

This is a serious allegation to make if not backed up with EVIDENCE!
Let us check the meaning according to Islamic teachings.

Definition of Idolatry:
1. Secular Source (Muslim biased)
Shirk (Arabic: شرك širk) in Islam is the sin of idolatry or polytheism (i.e., the deification or worship of anyone or anything besides Allah). Islam teaches that God does not share His divine attributes with any partner.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shirk_(Islam)

2. Islamic Source
The Qur‘an teaches that whenever the love, longing, loyalty and submission which are due to Allah, are focused upon other than Him, or others along with Him, then this is shirk – idolatry; setting-up partners with Allah. For as Islam sees things, whoever loves something, desires it, values it, and centres their hopes, fears, love and loyalty around it; submitting to it independently of Allah, then this, for them, becomes a deity, a god, an object of sacrilegious worship.

https://thehumblei.com/tag/how-does-islam-define-idolatry/

3. Evidence from Allah in the Qur'an
Qur'an 39:3
“Look! [Only] exclusive faith is worthy of Allah, and those who take guardians besides Him [claiming,] ‘We only worship them so that they may bring us near to Allah.’ Allah will indeed judge between them concerning that about which they differ. Indeed, Allah does not guide someone who is a liar and an ingrate.”

Qur'an 109:1-6
“.....Dedicate yourself to the religion as a hanīf, and never be one of the polytheists. Never invoke besides Allah that which neither benefits you nor can do you any harm; for if you do so, then you will indeed be among the wrongdoers.”


Now, Muslims will agree that worship goes beyond bowing down to an idol. It may also involve kissing, touching or reverencing any object or thing asside Allah. Invoking an object is not necessarily verbal is it?

Now, at the Kaaba,
1. There is a stone that came from paradise which used to be white but is now BLACK (because of sins of people touching it) that Muslims on pilgrimage touch and/kiss (they dont bow down to it)
2. The stone is shaped like a Vagina of a Woman and in the pre-islamic times, women used to touch it with their menstral blood probably for fertility sake.
3. Allahs apostle said that on judgment day, this Black stone would be given eyes and mouth to speak and it will testify for or against a Muslim's sincerity while touching it.
4. The Black stone became black because it has the power to suck/remove/take upon itself the sins of Muslims.

Even though, Muslims do not bow down to this stone, THEY worship and Invoke it by
1. Ascribing the power of forgiveness of sin to it (something only Allah has power to do)
2. Touching and/or kissing it as part of their religious excercise
3. Putting their hope in the black stone as an object to intercede for them on the day of judgement.

1. According to the first definition of Idolatry,
Muslims share the divine attribute of forgiveness of sin of Allah with the black stone.
2. According to the second definition of idolatry
Whoever centres their hopes, fears, love and loyalty around an object; submitting to it independently of Allah, then this, for them, becomes a deity, a god, an object of sacrilegious worship.

Muslims center their hopes for forgiveness of sin on this black stone independently of Allah, thus the black stone becomes a deity of sacrilegious worship.

3. According to the third definition of Idolatry

According to Qur'an 39:3, if the purpose of the black stone is to get Muslims closer to Allah through the forgiveness of their sins, this is idolatry.
Also, exclusive FAITH belong only to Allah and not any object, he who therefore have faith is anything else (black stone) is an idolater.

According to Qur'an 109:1-6, Never invoke besides Allah that which neither benefits you nor can do you any harm.

But some Muslims (like Umar) invoke the black stone by touching and/kissing/pointing to it even while they claim that it neither benefits nor harm them.


Like the Yorubas ascribe Olodumare to be the Creator but worship other Deities and put their trusts in various Charms, the Nlack Stone can be said to be the Muslim's EQUIVALENT of CHARMS (invoked by touching and/or kissing)


The QUESTION:
1. Can Muslims explain on the contrary why the black stone may not be equivalent to Magical Charms?
2. Can Muslims explain WHY they point to or kiss/or touch the black stone as part of their religious activities during their pilgrimage?



References:
If any Muslim disagree with any of the assertions above, I'll be willing to provide EVIDENCES. For now, I assume that Muslims are aware and familiar with my claims.

However, I found an Islamic site that ANSWERED and PROVIDED more than enough references .

LegalWolf, keep to the Question if you know the answer. If you don't, there is no virtue in thrashing meaninglessly about.


REFERENCE: Islamic website


The Black Stone
13-07-2000
Question 1902

QUESTION
What's the importance of the BlackStone in Kaaba, what does represent ?

Answer
Praise be to Allah.

There are a number of ahaadeeth etc. about the Black Stone which we will quote for our brother so that he may learn from them.

1. The Black Stone was sent down by Allaah to this earth from Paradise.

It was narrated that Ibn ‘Abbaas said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “The Black Stone came down from Paradise.”

(Narrated by al-Tirmidhi, 877; al-Nasaa’i, 2935. The hadeeth was classed as saheeh by al-Tirmidhi).

2. The Stone was whiter than milk, but the sins of the sons of Adam made it black.

It was narrated that Ibn ‘Abbaas said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “When the Black Stone came down from Paradise, it was whiter than milk, but the sins of the sons of Adam made it black.”

(Narrated by al-Tirmidhi, 877; Ahmad, 2792. Classed as saheeh by Ibn Khuzaymah, 4/219. Al-Haafiz ibn Hajar classed it as qawiy (strong) in Fath al-Baari, 3/462).

(a) Al-Mubaarakfoori said in al-Marqaah: This means, the sins of the sons of Adam who touched the stone, caused it to turn black. The hadeeth should be taken at face value, because there is no reason not to, either narrated in a report or by virtue of common sense.

(Tuhfat al-Ahwadhi, 3/525)

(b) Al-Haafiz ibn Hajar said: Some heretics tried to criticize this hadeeth by saying: How come the sins of the mushrikeen turned it black and the worship of the people of Tawheed did not make it white?

I answer by quoting what Ibn Qutaybah said: If Allaah had willed, that would have happened. But Allaah has caused it to be the case that black usually changes other colours and its not itself changed, which is the opposite to what happens with white.

(c) Al-Muhibb al-Tabari said: The fact that it is black is a lesson for those who have insight. If sins can have this effect on an inanimate rock, then the effect they have on the heart is greater.

See Fath al-Baari, 3/463

3. The Black Stone will come forth on the Day of Resurrection and will testify in favour of those who touched it in truth.

It was narrated that Ibn ‘Abbaas said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said concerning the Stone: “By Allaah, Allaah will bring it forth on the Day of Resurrection, and it will have two eyes with which it will see and a tongue with which it will speak, and it will testify in favour of those who touched it in sincerity.”

Narrated by al-Tirmidhi, 961; Ibn Maajah, 2944

This hadeeth was classed as hasan by al-Tirmidhi, and as qawiy by al-Haafiz ibn Hajar in Fath al-Baari, 3/462

(4) Touching, kissing or pointing to the Black Stone – this is the first thing to be done when starting Tawaaf, whether it is for Hajj or ‘Umrah, or voluntary Tawaaf.

It was narrated from Jaabir ibn ‘Abd-Allaah (may Allaah be pleased with him) that when the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) came to Makkaah, he came to the Black Stone and touched it, then he walked to the right of it and ran three times and walked four times [around the Ka’bah].

(narrated by Muslim, 1218).

(5) The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) kissed the Black Stone, and his ummah followed his lead in doing so.

It was narrated that ‘Umar (may Allaah be pleased with him) came to the Black Stone and kissed it, then he said: “I know that you are only a stone which can neither bring benefit nor cause harm. Were it not that I had seen the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) kiss you, I would not have kissed you.”

(Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 1520; Muslim, 1720)

(6) If a person is unable to kiss the Stone, he should touch it with his hand or something else, then he can kiss the thing with which he touched it.

(a) It was narrated that Naafi’ said: I saw Ibn ‘Umar touch the Stone with his hand then he kissed his hand. I said, I have never ceased to do this since I saw the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) do it.

(Narrated by Muslim, 1268)

(b) It was narrated that Abu Tufayl (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: I saw the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) performing Tawaaf around the House, touching the corner [where the Stone is] with a crooked staff which he had with him, then kissing the staff.

(Narrated by Muslim, 1275).

(7) If a person is unable to do the above, then he can point to it with his hand and say “Allaahu akbar”.

It was narrated that Ibn ‘Abbaas said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) performed Tawaaf on his camel, and every time he came to the corner [where the Stone is] he would point to it and say “Allaahu akbar.”

(Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 4987).

( Touching the Stone is one of the things by means of which Allaah expiates for sins

It was narrated that Ibn ‘Umar said: I heard the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) say: “Touching them both [the Black Stone and al-Rukn al-Yamani] is an expiation for sins.”

(Narrated by al-Tirmidhi, 959. This hadeeth was classed as hasan by al-Tirmidhi and as saheeh by al-Haakim (1/664). Al-Dhahabi agreed with him).

It is not permissible for a Muslim to annoy other Muslims at the Stone by hitting or fighting. The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) told us that the Stone will testify in favour of those who touched it in sincerity, which is not the case when a person touches it by disturbing the slaves of Allaah.

And Allaah knows best.





https://www.google.com/amp
/s/islamqa.info/amp/en/answers/1902


If you are not sure, you needn't respond.

The Question again:
The QUESTION:
1. Can Muslims explain on the contrary why the black stone may not be equivalent to Magical Charms of Idolaters ?
2. Can Muslims explain WHY they point to or kiss/or touch the black stone as part of their religious activities during their pilgrimage?

Thank you sirs!

MY COMMENTARY: This verse is very simple. yhwh was with the people of Judah and he helped them defeat the people of the hill. But he met the people of the plain, he became powerless because they had chariots fitted with iron not bazooka or Ak47. So that means, if amotekun should fight with the people of Judah and with yhwh by their side, amotekun is sure of success

Lukuluku69:


Did you see the Black stone mentioned in the Quran?

TenQ:

You want to convince yourself that the misconception of people that the earth was flat is equivalent to the misconception CAUSED BY Allah!?
No Way!

TenQ:


Human beings FROM inception met the Earth exactly as it was. God did not change ANYTHING about the earth as it has ALWAYS been a sphere.

TenQ:


Is it TRUE that the INTERVENTION of Allah in the Crucifixion of Jesus caused your so-called misconception of ALL who love JESUS?

Abdulgaffar22:

Kindly tell us how the two misconceptions due to insufficient knowledge different from each other



Yes, it has always been a sphere and God did not change its shape. But people misconceived it to be flat

Similarly, God has always known to BLESS an innocent and righteous soul and God did not change His character. But Christians misconceived the character of God by believing that God can put an innocent and righteous soul under a divine CURSE (Galatians 3:13)



Yes ! This is because NOTHING SEEMS TO HAVE CHANGED since the Crucifixion, both in the Christian and non-Christian worlds. If, according to Christianity, Jesus crucifixion really atoned for the sins of the sinful humanity originated from the disobedience of Adam and his wife then, after the crucifixion; Did tendency to commit sin stop to pass on to the children being born by Christian parents ? Was the punishment prescribed for the Sin abolished ? Did those who believed in Jesus Christ as the ‘Son of God’, if they were women, stop to have painful childbirth (Genesis 3:16) ? Did the believing men start earning their livelihood without exerting manual labour (Genesis 3:17-19) ? If the answer to all of these questions were to be ‘yes,’ then of course there would be some justification in seriously contemplating the Christian philosophy of Sin and Atonement. But Alas, the answer to all these questions are no, no, no and no.
Therefore, If nothing seems to have changed since the Crucifixion, both in the Christian and non-Christian worlds, then what would now be the effect or benefit of sin atonement ?

LegalWolf:
Potential Thief TenQ

I had a very long journey over the weekend and I am just having time to settle down properly. In my view, travelling is akin to working and don't you think it is important for me to rest AFTER working? According to the bible, if the lazy ass yhwh can rest after work, why not me?

(underline mine).

First off, I find it interesting that a potential thief WOULD have the audacity to give me condition in a conversation about religion!! It is absurd and laughable. You even went ahead to tell me no need for meaningless thrashing:

THE MORAL QUESTION

1. Is it meaningless thrashing to TELL THE WORLD that the person who I am discussing about faith forged a statement, put it in inverted comma and attributed it to me. TO DATE, YOU HAVE NEVER DENIED YOU - TENQ - FORGED A STATEMENT AND ATTRIBUTED IT TO ME . Or have you? If you have point that out please

2. Is it meaningless thrashing to refuse from debating with a potential thief? The very great Yoruba tribe, which I think you belong to, have a saying that an habitual liar is a potential thief. Or would you deny this saying too? If this saying is to be believed, so tell me why it is meaningless thrashing when I refuse to debate with morally bankrupt potential thief like you?

PREVIOUS CONVERSATION
3. In our last conversation, I called for an explanation of Judges 1:19 and you completely went off the rail. For those who are unaware, the Book of Judges tells us the story of the people of Judah after the death of Joshua (Jud 1:1). One interesting verse in that book is Chapter 1:19 where the Bible narrates the story as follows:

The Lord was with the men of Judah. They took possession of the hill country, but they were unable to drive the people from the plains, because they had chariots fitted with iron ( MY COMMENTARY: This verse is very simple. yhwh was with the people of Judah and he helped them defeat the people of the hill. But he met the people of the plain, he became powerless because they had chariots fitted with iron not bazooka or Ak47. So that means, if amotekun should fight with the people of Judah and with yhwh by their side, amotekun is sure of success )

4. In other to defend the indefensible, our potential thief went on to make a baseless assumption that the reason Judah could not drive people of the mountains (not plain - I am unsure where he saw this) was because Judah knew that they had chariots of iron.? Really? NO SANE HUMAN BEING WOULD READ JUDGES 1:19 OR THE WHOLE CHAPTER ONE OF THE BOOK OF JUDGES AND WOULD COME TO THAT CONCLUSION .

4. Our potential thief TenQ even went ahead with this shabby defense by arguing that Judah's faithlessness prevented him from conquering the land. How does this follow logically from the above? I repeat, ALL OVER CHAPTER ONE of the book of Judges, particularly where yhwh could not help the people of Judah defeat a people because they had Iron chariots, despite being with them, there was no mention of Judah's faithlessness. Or do you want me to reference the verses of judges I cited to you?

5. When this fact became overwhelmingly convincing and one of his allies could not rebut, he had to resort to deriving 'spiritual message' from Judges 1:19. LOL! The potential thief on the other hand had to run away and start putting up a defence of the battle of Uhud... Lol! Lazy ass yhwh!

6. It just occurred to me that yhwh could possibly be resting like he did in Genesis 2:3 when the battle against the plain was fought, coupled with the fact that his enemies had iron chariots... Instant victory against Judah. Lol

PRESENT DISCOURSE

7. Again, there is a lot of literature on this topic and I know other Muslims who possibly have never discussed with the potential thief would be of help.

8. More so, it is even interesting that a person who fails to connect the dots between the ritual sacrifices to his god and that of Obatala or Eshu has stands on a moral ground on asking me questions about shirk. Or are you telling me that the Bible was wrong in Genesis 4:4 when fat portion of livestock was sacrificed to yhwh? What is the difference between that and sacrifices to Olodumare ? (See this academic article for your reference: https://acjol.org/index.php/ekpoma/article/download/1679/1661)
(you noticed that out of deep respect I have for Yoruba people and culture, I even capitalized their Gods.... you owe me something for that LOL )

LASTLY: The moral burden remains TenQ. You have lied countlessly, forged a statement I did not say, put it in inverted comma and attributed it to me. On principle, I would not have engagement with you on religion. This even follows from Apostle Paul's teachings that Do not be misled: “Bad company corrupts good character.” [/] 1 Cor. 15:33 You are a bad company and would not want you to corrupt my manners. Is it so difficult a request to ask?

TenQ:

Are you a Qur'an only Muslim?

The Blackstone is in your Hadiths and Tafsirs!
And when you go to pilgrimage, you as Muslims you INVOKE it!

TenQ:

1. Before Allah removed Jesus to himself, were People misconceived about the whereabout of Jesus?
2. When Allah removed Jesus, did Allah tell ANY of Jesus people what he had done?
3. After Allah removed Jesus, according to you there was a MISCONCEPTION! Is it not Allah that is responsible for this misconception?


About the earth, did Allah at any point change the shape of the earth (intervention) after men had been on earth? No!

If there was any misconception, it was by the Deception of Allah!

TenQ:

You are welcome from your journey.

Would you now kindly answer the questions:

The QUESTION:
1. Can Muslims explain on the contrary why the black stone may not be equivalent to Magical Charms?
2. Can Muslims explain WHY they point to or kiss/or touch the black stone as part of their religious activities during their pilgrimage?

LegalWolf:


Why, potential thief?

Abdulgaffar22:


Did God at at any point change His character by telling us in the scriptures that He can put an innocent and righteous soul under His CURSE after men have known that God is naturally known to BLESS an innocent and righteous soul ? Certainly not !

There are many books like Gospel of Barnabas (which your church fathers termed apochryphal) which confirmed that people who are very close to Jesus knew that he wasn't the one that got crucified.

Again,there can be no any misconception for the people who are well versed in the scriptures. It is very clearly written in the scriptures that God would always protect Jesus Christ from any harm. Please compare the two biblical passage below ;

Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. “If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written:
“‘He will command his angels concerning you, and they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone. Jesus answered him, “It is also written: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test. (Matthew 4:5-7)

For he will command his angels concerning you to guard you in all your ways; they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone. [/b]You will tread on the lion and the cobra; you will trample the great lion and the serpent. “Because he loves me,” says the LORD, “I will rescue him; I will protect him, for he acknowledges my name. He will call on me, and I will answer him; I will be with him in trouble, I will deliver him and honor him ([b]Psalm 91:11-15)

See how Jesus confirmed that what the devil was saying about him is true by saying "It is also written".

Now if God really answered the blood-sweating prayer of Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane (Luke 22:44) just as God promised in Psalm 91 above, then how can Jesus be crucified ?

If it is true that Jesus has volunteered himself to die for our sins, then why did he pray so FERVENTLY asking for the crucifixion to be TAKEN AWAY from him not in one time but in THREE different consecutive times (see Matthew 26:36-44) ? If Jesus had truly and willingly laid down his life in heaven to die for our sin, then he must have been prepared by God both physically and spiritually for this great task. In that case, there would be no need for that blood- sweating prayer in the Garden of Gethsemane (Luke 22:44). Even if we assume that Jesus must pray because of the FLESH that is WEAK, then that prayer should definitely be for the "STRENGTH" that will enable him to bear the task. It should NOT be for the cup of crucifixion to be TAKEN AWAY from him.
Furthermore, if Jesus had VOLUNTEERED to laid down his life in heaven, then why did he have to LAMENT on the cross by saying allegedly;
"My God, my God, why have you FORSAKEN me? (Matthew 27:46)".
Does this sound like the voice of a someone who has VOLUNTEERED himself to die for our sins? Certainly not !

Lukuluku69:


I am Muslim. The Quran and the Hadiths are my major sources of Faith and all my Religious actions.

As for the Tafsirs, they are what they are: interpretations of the meanings of the Text based on the understanding of whoever that is running them. They could be right and they could be wrong..

So bring your Quotes from the Quran and hadiths.

( Touching the Stone is one of the things by means of which Allaah expiates for sins

TenQ:

Howa y times do you want me to present them to you?

Okay, here again.
Check below, I have Quoted both the Qur'an, Tafsirs and the Hadiths with respect to Idolatry and the Black stone in Islam.

I didn't put a single bible verse o! LOL


Check the dogo turenchi I posted, it contains several Qur'an , Tafsirs and Hadiths.

Let me repost them as I am Sure you didn't read my dogo turenchi. LOL!

This time, I will remove the quotes so that you can read carefully.


Islamic Idolatry

For a religion who claims to practice the STRICTEST Monotheism, would it surprise you that both Mohammed AND Muslims are Idolaters?

This is a serious allegation to make if not backed up with EVIDENCE!
Let us check the meaning according to Islamic teachings.

Definition of Idolatry:
1. Secular Source (Muslim biased)
Shirk (Arabic: شرك širk) in Islam is the sin of idolatry or polytheism (i.e., the deification or worship of anyone or anything besides Allah). Islam teaches that God does not share His divine attributes with any partner.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shirk_(Islam)

2. Islamic Source
The Qur‘an teaches that whenever the love, longing, loyalty and submission which are due to Allah, are focused upon other than Him, or others along with Him, then this is shirk – idolatry; setting-up partners with Allah. For as Islam sees things, whoever loves something, desires it, values it, and centres their hopes, fears, love and loyalty around it; submitting to it independently of Allah, then this, for them, becomes a deity, a god, an object of sacrilegious worship.

https://thehumblei.com/tag/how-does-islam-define-idolatry/

3. Evidence from Allah in the Qur'an
Qur'an 39:3
“Look! [Only] exclusive faith is worthy of Allah, and those who take guardians besides Him [claiming,] ‘We only worship them so that they may bring us near to Allah.’ Allah will indeed judge between them concerning that about which they differ. Indeed, Allah does not guide someone who is a liar and an ingrate.”

Qur'an 109:1-6
“.....Dedicate yourself to the religion as a hanīf, and never be one of the polytheists. Never invoke besides Allah that which neither benefits you nor can do you any harm; for if you do so, then you will indeed be among the wrongdoers.”


Now, Muslims will agree that worship goes beyond bowing down to an idol. It may also involve kissing, touching or reverencing any object or thing asside Allah. Invoking an object is not necessarily verbal is it?

Now, at the Kaaba,
1. There is a stone that came from paradise which used to be white but is now BLACK (because of sins of people touching it) that Muslims on pilgrimage touch and/kiss (they dont bow down to it)
2. The stone is shaped like a Vagina of a Woman and in the pre-islamic times, women used to touch it with their menstral blood probably for fertility sake.
3. Allahs apostle said that on judgment day, this Black stone would be given eyes and mouth to speak and it will testify for or against a Muslim's sincerity while touching it.
4. The Black stone became black because it has the power to suck/remove/take upon itself the sins of Muslims.

Even though, Muslims do not bow down to this stone, THEY worship and Invoke it by
1. Ascribing the power of forgiveness of sin to it (something only Allah has power to do)
2. Touching and/or kissing it as part of their religious excercise
3. Putting their hope in the black stone as an object to intercede for them on the day of judgement.

1. According to the first definition of Idolatry,
Muslims share the divine attribute of forgiveness of sin of Allah with the black stone.
2. According to the second definition of idolatry
Whoever centres their hopes, fears, love and loyalty around an object; submitting to it independently of Allah, then this, for them, becomes a deity, a god, an object of sacrilegious worship.

Muslims center their hopes for forgiveness of sin on this black stone independently of Allah, thus the black stone becomes a deity of sacrilegious worship.

3. According to the third definition of Idolatry

According to Qur'an 39:3, if the purpose of the black stone is to get Muslims closer to Allah through the forgiveness of their sins, this is idolatry.
Also, exclusive FAITH belong only to Allah and not any object, he who therefore have faith is anything else (black stone) is an idolater.

According to Qur'an 109:1-6, Never invoke besides Allah that which neither benefits you nor can do you any harm.

But some Muslims (like Umar) invoke the black stone by touching and/kissing/pointing to it even while they claim that it neither benefits nor harm them.


Like the Yorubas ascribe Olodumare to be the Creator but worship other Deities and put their trusts in various Charms, the Nlack Stone can be said to be the Muslim's EQUIVALENT of CHARMS (invoked by touching and/or kissing)


The QUESTION:
1. Can Muslims explain on the contrary why the black stone may not be equivalent to Magical Charms?
2. Can Muslims explain WHY they point to or kiss/or touch the black stone as part of their religious activities during their pilgrimage?



References:
If any Muslim disagree with any of the assertions above, I'll be willing to provide EVIDENCES. For now, I assume that Muslims are aware and familiar with my claims.

However, I found an Islamic site that ANSWERED and PROVIDED more than enough references .

LegalWolf, keep to the Question if you know the answer. If you don't, there is no virtue in thrashing meaninglessly about.


REFERENCE: Islamic website


The Black Stone
13-07-2000
Question 1902

QUESTION
What's the importance of the BlackStone in Kaaba, what does represent ?

Answer
Praise be to Allah.

There are a number of ahaadeeth etc. about the Black Stone which we will quote for our brother so that he may learn from them.

1. The Black Stone was sent down by Allaah to this earth from Paradise.

It was narrated that Ibn ‘Abbaas said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “The Black Stone came down from Paradise.”

(Narrated by al-Tirmidhi, 877; al-Nasaa’i, 2935. The hadeeth was classed as saheeh by al-Tirmidhi).

2. The Stone was whiter than milk, but the sins of the sons of Adam made it black.

It was narrated that Ibn ‘Abbaas said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “When the Black Stone came down from Paradise, it was whiter than milk, but the sins of the sons of Adam made it black.”

(Narrated by al-Tirmidhi, 877; Ahmad, 2792. Classed as saheeh by Ibn Khuzaymah, 4/219. Al-Haafiz ibn Hajar classed it as qawiy (strong) in Fath al-Baari, 3/462).

(a) Al-Mubaarakfoori said in al-Marqaah: This means, the sins of the sons of Adam who touched the stone, caused it to turn black. The hadeeth should be taken at face value, because there is no reason not to, either narrated in a report or by virtue of common sense.

(Tuhfat al-Ahwadhi, 3/525)

(b) Al-Haafiz ibn Hajar said: Some heretics tried to criticize this hadeeth by saying: How come the sins of the mushrikeen turned it black and the worship of the people of Tawheed did not make it white?

I answer by quoting what Ibn Qutaybah said: If Allaah had willed, that would have happened. But Allaah has caused it to be the case that black usually changes other colours and its not itself changed, which is the opposite to what happens with white.

(c) Al-Muhibb al-Tabari said: The fact that it is black is a lesson for those who have insight. If sins can have this effect on an inanimate rock, then the effect they have on the heart is greater.

See Fath al-Baari, 3/463

3. The Black Stone will come forth on the Day of Resurrection and will testify in favour of those who touched it in truth.

It was narrated that Ibn ‘Abbaas said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said concerning the Stone: “By Allaah, Allaah will bring it forth on the Day of Resurrection, and it will have two eyes with which it will see and a tongue with which it will speak, and it will testify in favour of those who touched it in sincerity.”

Narrated by al-Tirmidhi, 961; Ibn Maajah, 2944

This hadeeth was classed as hasan by al-Tirmidhi, and as qawiy by al-Haafiz ibn Hajar in Fath al-Baari, 3/462

(4) Touching, kissing or pointing to the Black Stone – this is the first thing to be done when starting Tawaaf, whether it is for Hajj or ‘Umrah, or voluntary Tawaaf.

It was narrated from Jaabir ibn ‘Abd-Allaah (may Allaah be pleased with him) that when the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) came to Makkaah, he came to the Black Stone and touched it, then he walked to the right of it and ran three times and walked four times [around the Ka’bah].

(narrated by Muslim, 1218).

(5) The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) kissed the Black Stone, and his ummah followed his lead in doing so.

It was narrated that ‘Umar (may Allaah be pleased with him) came to the Black Stone and kissed it, then he said: “I know that you are only a stone which can neither bring benefit nor cause harm. Were it not that I had seen the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) kiss you, I would not have kissed you.”

(Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 1520; Muslim, 1720)

(6) If a person is unable to kiss the Stone, he should touch it with his hand or something else, then he can kiss the thing with which he touched it.

(a) It was narrated that Naafi’ said: I saw Ibn ‘Umar touch the Stone with his hand then he kissed his hand. I said, I have never ceased to do this since I saw the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) do it.

(Narrated by Muslim, 1268)

(b) It was narrated that Abu Tufayl (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: I saw the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) performing Tawaaf around the House, touching the corner [where the Stone is] with a crooked staff which he had with him, then kissing the staff.

(Narrated by Muslim, 1275).

(7) If a person is unable to do the above, then he can point to it with his hand and say “Allaahu akbar”.

It was narrated that Ibn ‘Abbaas said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) performed Tawaaf on his camel, and every time he came to the corner [where the Stone is] he would point to it and say “Allaahu akbar.”

(Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 4987).

( Touching the Stone is one of the things by means of which Allaah expiates for sins

It was narrated that Ibn ‘Umar said: I heard the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) say: “Touching them both [the Black Stone and al-Rukn al-Yamani] is an expiation for sins.”

(Narrated by al-Tirmidhi, 959. This hadeeth was classed as hasan by al-Tirmidhi and as saheeh by al-Haakim (1/664). Al-Dhahabi agreed with him).

It is not permissible for a Muslim to annoy other Muslims at the Stone by hitting or fighting. The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) told us that the Stone will testify in favour of those who touched it in sincerity, which is not the case when a person touches it by disturbing the slaves of Allaah.

And Allaah knows best.





https://www.google.com/amp
/s/islamqa.info/amp/en/answers/1902


If you are not sure, you needn't respond.

The Question again:
The QUESTION:
1. Can Muslims explain on the contrary why the black stone may not be equivalent to Magical Charms of Idolaters ?
2. Can Muslims explain WHY they point to or kiss/or touch the black stone as part of their religious activities during their pilgrimage?

Thank you sirs!

Lukuluku69:


You still have not quote the Quran on this Black stone but be that as it may, let us examine what you based your proof of idolatory on.

I have never seen nor read anywhere in the Quran nor the hadiths that says " If you don't touch the black stone at the Kaaba your Hajj is not Valid. Haven said this, please serach the Quran and the Hadiths and bring your evidence of you have any. Note my words - The Quran and Hadiths- not what one sheik or Mallam says. What the Quran and hadiths says.

Also bring me Text that says of I did not touch or kiss the Black Stone I am not a Muslim.

Do this and let us examine it together.

Touching or kissing the Black Stone is never a Pillar of islam and as you know Millions of Muslims will never visit Mecca while on this planet are you saying they are not Muslims for not kissing the Balck stone?

What I see here is just strawmanning by you for it is cleary stated in your Bible about a house of God in the Villages that Kedar inhabited. In order to muddied the water you bring about something that Pilgrims can forgo without invalidating their Hajj.

LegalWolf:


Brother,

Engaging TenQ is akin to the proverbial wrestle with the pig. While the swine is joyous and happy (after all, how many times would it get that once in a lifetime opportunity), you end up wasting your precious time.

His grasp of logic is flawed, conceptualisation of our faith muddled, yet adamant and ignorant. What do we have? a cocktail of resentful disaster. As basic as the meaning of “INJEEL”, he doesn’t even know and had to lie on the meaning by giving two contradictory and false interpretations!

This potential thief called TenQ (I call him potential thief because the Yoruba people - a tribe I think he belongs - have a saying: an habitual liar is a potential thief) even went ahead to forge a statement, put it in inverted comma and ascribed it to me. He can never deny it till he dies. Or can he? . Is that the type of person one would engage on faith with?

Just to give you heads up - the potential thief will open a thread soon about a delusory topic on Islam, quote you and so many other Muslims and ask for your comment. If you ignore, he’ll go on and rant endlessly in your mentions. That’s how crazy he craves attention.

Anyways, enjoy brother and just play with him. His skin is very thin. I know you must have worked hard for 6 days. Probably you should go rest as the story book bible fantasized about God in Genesis 2: 2- 3

Cc: Potential Thief TenQ

LegalWolf:


Brother,

Engaging TenQ is akin to the proverbial wrestle with the pig. While the swine is joyous and happy (after all, how many times would it get that once in a lifetime opportunity), you end up wasting your precious time.

His grasp of logic is flawed, conceptualisation of our faith muddled, yet adamant and ignorant. What do we have? a cocktail of resentful disaster. As basic as the meaning of “INJEEL”, he doesn’t even know and had to lie on the meaning by giving two contradictory and false interpretations!

This potential thief called TenQ (I call him potential thief because the Yoruba people - a tribe I think he belongs - have a saying: an habitual liar is a potential thief) even went ahead to forge a statement, put it in inverted comma and ascribed it to me. He can never deny it till he dies. Or can he? . Is that the type of person one would engage on faith with?

Just to give you heads up - the potential thief will open a thread soon about a delusory topic on Islam, quote you and so many other Muslims and ask for your comment. If you ignore, he’ll go on and rant endlessly in your mentions. That’s how crazy he craves attention.

Anyways, enjoy brother and just play with him. His skin is very thin. I know you must have worked hard for 6 days. Probably you should go rest as the story book bible fantasized about God in Genesis 2: 2- 3

Cc: Potential Thief TenQ

Lukuluku69:


Brother,

Of course I know him and his ways. I agree with you that it is better ignore but sometime a word or two to correct a wrong notion or a basic grasp that which troubles their soul for the kind of hatred they have within them is why I sometimes reply their mentions.

Going forward, I think I will just ignore.

Shukran!

Abdulgaffar22:


Please stop arguing with TenQ for the sake of Allah. Let all of us wait till the day of Judgement and see who is right and who is wrong in his belief

Lukuluku69:


Brother,

Of course I know him and his ways. I agree with you that it is better ignore but sometime a word or two to correct a wrong notion or a basic grasp that which troubles their soul for the kind of hatred they have within them is why I sometimes reply their mentions.

Going forward, I think I will just ignore.

Shukran!

TenQ:
If TenQ's grasp of logic is flawed, conceptualisation of our faith muddled, yet adamant and ignorant.
WHY DO YOU IGNORE CORRECTING HIS IGNORANCE by ANSWERING His QUESTIONS?


Dear Cry-Cry Baby Lawyer LegalWolf,

You are Predictably childish and noticeably still hurt and weeping from my last flogging with my barrage of words of TRUTH that that proved that Islam is from Satan AND that you like your prophet is not only a STONE serving IDOL but a gross LIAR.

Satan Allah is tempting you with Booze, big boobs, eternal erection and brothels of sex playboys and it doesn't dawn on you his trademark!

I've warned you. Your eternity is at risk. Is it not true that Allah prised that you will all enter the FIRE? (Sorry, I forgot to add that Allah will now remove Christians from paradise to replace you Muslims in hell!)

You needn't respond to this till another topic from me to you AS you'd as usual be invited.


Not withstanding of this, I pray honestly for your salvation and that it would not be too late for you. The character of Mohammed is SICK: a father flirting with and taking the wife of of his own son with Allah's support is unheard of even among fairly depraved and mentally ill humans.

You'll agree with me that only an apostle of Allah can do this kind of evil

FreeIgboho:
This is what you get by selectively quoting the Bible. It is to be taken as a whole.
He is the Son of God who takes away the sin of the WORLD!
2. He even gave a parable about the feast being opened up to everyone because the primary intended didn’t show up

Kobojunkie:
1. He is correct in stating that Jesus Christ is sent only to the Lost sheep of Israel.

2. The parable of the Wedding banquet is a very interesting Parable indeed. Did you notice that the guests who were first sent for by the King, the primary intended, also lived in the Kingdom of the King — a reference to those of Israel living in the land of Judea at the time? Anyways, the king took care of those primary intended who rejected Him, and then invited all others yet he ended up rejecting some of those, why? Even among all those who were later invited to the banquet by the King, only those who wore the right garment were allowed to stay. All those who did not wear the right garment were tossed back out. Matthew 22 vs 14 contains the message of the parable which is that many are invited but only a few will be chosen.

Jesus Christ said He was sent only to the Lost sheep of Israel - Matthew 10:5-6 & Matthew 15:24 -, and even from among those who He was sent to, He came for those among them who are weary and heavy-laden and in need of rest - Matthew 11 vs 28 - 30. Now, where are the lost sheep of Israel located? God cursed and cast them out of Israel, scattering them to all ends of the earth, so they are found in every tongue, every language, and every nation of the world. Are all gentiles of the Lost sheep of Israel? No! However, it seems all of those who were lost of Israel are also gentiles.

FreeIgboho:
1. This illustrates what I was saying: not taking the Bible as a whole. You take one parable or segment and try to interpret it in isolation. The Bible does not work that way.

2. So in your honest opinion, reading all the way to Revelations, Lord Jesus came only to save only the Jews from their sins??
EVER b
3. How about: God sent His Son, Jesus, that WHOelieves in Him would have eternal life (John 3:16). 
How about: Behold the Son of God who takes away the sins of the world
4. How about Salvation will come through the Jews. The Jewish Messiah is also the Savior of all who will believe (Matthew 28:19; John 10:16; Acts 10:34-36; Revelation 5:9)
5.Take the Bible as a whole, that’s how it’s meant to work!

1 “Everything that I have mentioned will happen to you—both the blessings and the curses. And you will remember these words when the Lord your God sends you away to other nations.
2 Then you and your descendants will turn back to the Lord your God. You will follow him with all your heart and completely obey all his commands that I have given you today.
3 Then the Lord your God will be kind to you. The Lord your God will make you free again! He will bring you back from the nations where he sent you.
4 Even if you were sent to the farthest parts of the earth, the Lord your God will gather you from there and bring you back.
5 The Lord your God will bring you into the land your ancestors had, and the land will become yours. He will do good to you, and you will have more than your ancestors had. You will have more people in your nation than they ever had.
6 The Lord your God will make you and your descendants want to obey him. Then you will love the Lord your God with all your heart. And you will live! - Deuteronomy 30 vs 1 - 6

20 So the Lord God says to them: “I myself will judge between the fat sheep and the thin sheep!
21 You push with your side and shoulder. You knock down all the weak sheep with your horns. You push until you have forced them away,
22 so I will save my flock. They will not be caught by wild animals anymore. I will judge between one sheep and another.
23 Then I will put one shepherd over them, my servant David. He will feed them and be their shepherd.
24 Then I, the Lord, will be their God, and my servant David will be the ruler living among them. I, the Lord, have spoken.
25 “And I will make a peace agreement with my sheep. I will take harmful animals away from the land. Then the sheep can be safe in the desert and sleep in the woods.
26 I will bless the sheep and the places around my hill. I will cause the rains to fall at the right time and will shower them with blessings. 27 And the trees growing in the field will produce their fruit. The earth will give its harvest, so the sheep will be safe on their land. I will break the yokes on them and save them from the power of the people who made them slaves. Then they will know that I am the Lord.
28 They will not be caught like an animal by the nations anymore. Those animals will not eat them anymore. No, they will live safely. No one will make them afraid.
29 I will give them some land that will make a good garden. Then they will not suffer from hunger in that land or suffer the insults from the nations anymore.
30 Then they will know that I am the Lord their God. The family of Israel will know that I am with them and that they are my people.” This is what the Lord God said!
31 “You are my sheep, the sheep of my grassland. You are only human beings, and I am your God.” This is what the Lord God said. - Ezekiel 34 vs 20 - 31

Kobojunkie:
1. I am afraid you have this all wrong here. You are the one who attempted to use the Parable of the wedding banquet in isolation to support your attempt against that clearly stated by Jesus Christ in the same Gospel book of Matthew. If indeed you are against what you suggest, then you would compile all(not just some) of what Jesus Christ said as part and parcel of one and the same Truth of God.

2. Yes! That is what God announced would happen in even the Law of Moses. That He would gather His sheep from all across the world back to Isreal. That is the same mission the Prophets spoke of, and it is the very mission that Jesus Christ came to carry out in fulfillment of the Old Law of Moses -- the gathering of the Lost sheep of Israel from every tribe, every language, and every nation across this World.

3. Remember what you yourself said earlier, scripture cannot be taken in isolation, God's truth is All-or-nothing meaning, you accept one, you have to accept it all. So, in light of this, I urge you to begin to consider that the very same Jesus Christ who said the offer is out there for all also said the following about the very same. The very same Jesus Christ who said what you stated also declared, “God sent me only to the lost people of Israel(not just the Jews) - Matthew 15 vs 24.” So, do we discount what He said here all so you can hold on only to what He stated elsewhere as His only truth? Or do we compile it all together to realize the Truth of Jesus Christ?

4. Indeed, Jesus Christ was born a Jew but He was sent by His Father to save not just the Jews of Israel but all of the other tribes of Israel combined - the Lost sheep of Israel. That is what God Himself made clear through His Prophets - Isaiah 66 vs 19 - 20 & Ezekiel 34 vs 1 - 16 & Ezekiel 37:21-27. And Jesus Christ, the one who came to do the Will of His Father, came with no personal agenda of His own mind you — the only mission He had was that given to Him by His Father in Heaven and that mission was made known through the prophets.
The mission that God gave to Jesus Christ is detailed right in the Law of Moses as given by God to the people of Israel. So, again, do we take all of that spoken by the Prophets into consideration, along with all the Truth as declared by Jesus Christ, or do we consider only some of His truth in isolation from the others?

5. Are you yourself willing to take your own advice here? Or are you instead looking to pick and choose from the Truth as declared by Jesus Christ only that which aligns with your current religious ideology?

FreeIgboho:
1. You perfectly demonstrate what I was saying: you are NOT taking the Bible as a whole (which of course includes taking the Bible in context, and also things clearly implied but not explicitly stated - eg trinity is NOT in the Bible), you are just picking verses to win an argument, ignoring what is glaringly there.

2. I clearly used the parable as a passing example, I never implied that it by itself proved anything.

3. Now, the words of Lord Jesus written down in the NT are not up to the number of words Jesus would speak in ONE day.

4. He never laughed, he never joked, etc. And we don’t know how the words were said nor the nuances nor facial expressions that accompanied them. Example, he still went ahead to grant the Gentile woman’s request. Why? Luckily for us there were people who were there and heard everything live and in context. Below are some things they wrote. Please tell us what you glean from reading them

22 A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, “Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is demon-possessed and suffering terribly.” - Mathew 15 vs 22

24 He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.” - Matthew 15 vs 24

7. Do not give what is holy to dogs and do not throw your pearls before pigs, or they will trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces. - Matthew 7 vs 6

Kobojunkie:
1. Again, you are the one doing exactly what you keep accusing me of which is not considering scripture in its entirety.

2. And I showed that even that passing example that you posted, does not in anyway NEGATE the proclamation made by Jesus Christ which is that His Father sent Him only to the lost sheep of Israel. That word only is very important there as it basically cancels out every other unstated assumption that you continue to make of what Jesus Christ came to do.

3. That is actually not true. If you read through the 4 Gospels, you will find that Jesus Christ gave His apostles almost 100 commandments in total which they are meant to live by, and spoke about 20 blessings and almost 20 curses, not considering the parables and other teachings. That is more than a day's worth of recorded dialogue if you ask me. And all of that combined makes up God's New Covenant and Law, the agreement of peace that God promised to make with His Israel.

4. What was the woman's request? She asked Jesus Christ to have mercy on her, and then she told Him her child was demon-possessed. To which Jesus Christ responded.
The woman asked Him for mercy to which He responded that He was sent to show mercy only to the lost sheep of Israel. We know Jesus Christ did not reserve healing only for the Israelites, since there are examples of Him healing gentiles before His encounter with the Canaanite woman — In Matthew 8 vs 5 - 13 we read of Jesus Christ healing the servant of the Centurion who came asking Him to heal His servant — so it is wrong to assume then that Jesus Christ simply didn't want to heal this woman because she was a gentile. Clearly, Jesus Christ's response to her was to reveal that the mercy/love of God which He had to give was only meant by the Father who sent Him for the lost sheep of Israel, exactly as Jesus Christ stated. And, again, Jesus Christ came to do the Will of the Father who sent Him and not His own will, so the statement is not of the will of Jesus Christ but of God's Truth.

The same Jesus Christ is recorded to have also stated the following in Matthew 7 during the sermon on the mount.
Clearly, that which is Holy is not meant for the dogs aka the Gentiles.

So, you have a decision to make here for yourself. Do you accept God's Truth or do you reject it thereby insisting that Jesus Christ much have prevaricated in that situation among several others?

MMempire:

I get you. Muslims do not tolerate people talking wrongfully about their faith. They will say you're blasphemous and will call out your head on a stake. You find most of them being either a fanatic or a radical Muslim.

FreeIgboho:
1..See? You didn’t address the quotations I presented - that’s what I mean by picking and choosing. Something so glaring, yet you miss it - if Jesus was sent only to Jews why were people closest to him preaching “Christ crucified for your sins” to gentiles?