AntiChristian:


No, i believe all authentic revelations but not what men wrote!

who wrote the Quran then?.....Spirit? Or it fell from heaven?

Obafavour:

Dey myte nt want to accept him in d first place probably base on d teachings of jesus dat dey should nt believe anybody coming 2 dem in his name. It might nt b necessarily needed 2 b written in d bible dat holy spirit used barnabas.... But dat is whom (barnabas) God used 2 convince dem to accept paul.
And u can't decide what jesus will do "dat u thought he have 2 appear 2 his disciple nd tell dem he appeared 2 paul". D bible says God thought nd way is different man's own "isaiah 55:8-9"

Bros, just listen to your own logic nah.

The Eleven won't believe Jesus again if he should appear to them again you say? But Paul who never met him , never saw him would believe that the voice speaking to him was that of someone he never sopke with, he never met etc? How does that sound to you?

Let me retariate what happened again to you.

When Paul sought out the True disciples of Jesus in Jerusalem, he was rejected and they were afraid of him. He was saying stuff Jesus did say while he was with them.( Eating with Gentiles, forbidding circumcisions, Grace over God's Law etc) and rightly they were afaid of him. He was called a Babbler for a reason. I would have thought Jesus to pay the Eleven a visit too and tell them he was the one that commissioned Paul too. But did that happened? No, it was a certain Barnabas who waded in before Paul could be accepted.

Jesus visited Paul twice on one occasion giving instructions on what his missions were and on another occasion telling him to go to Damascus for such instructions yet he won't visit the same guys that were with him for three years!? He would commission ONLY ONE APOSTLE for the Entire World while the ones he trained himself were for the Nation of Israel alone! That makes sense to you?

MaxInDHouse:
@ Abdulgaffar

Please don't let my posts stop you from what you're doing because if truly you love God it's good to question all religions that speaks about God. Matthew 7:7-8
But don't allow credulity or nepotism becloud your reasoning because many i tell you will like to know the truth but they will fail to identify it through nepotism {Luke 13:24} as they're only supporting the religion they inherited from their parents instead of questions all what people say about God.

We are JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES, we don't claim that we are perfect but the assurance of pure worship we have it today {Hebrews 11:1} because we have an organization of imperfection humans who are fulfilling what God promised that will happen in the last days {Isaiah 2:2-4; Micah 4:1-3} as for the Bible and Jesus ọmọ both would have been ordinary book with a fairytale if these things aren't happening now in our generation! Luke 21:33

May you have PEACE!

Bible recorded that the number of Jesus apostles was somehow fixed to be twelve (Matthew 10:2-7, 19:28, Revelation 21:14). Therefore, when Judas Iscariot fell out and there was need for replacement and restoration of original twelve, then one would expect the divine plan to unfold in such a way that original apostles would be pre-informed by Jesus (pbuh) to exercise patience and wait till someone like Paul repents. But instead of waiting for Paul, Matthias was chosen to replace Judas under the act of divine guidance (Acts 1:20-26). This proves again that apostleship of Paul was not even recognized in heaven. Yet Paul repeatedly called himself an apostle of true Jesus Christ at the beginning of most of his letters.

Kobojunkie:
Problem I observed with you lot is you don't attempt to reason or comprehend what you quote in any way or form. Your only goal is to disparage that which does not suit what you cling to and that makes it hard to engage you on any level. It's like trying to engage individuals hiding behind a wall of thorns frightened that they mind be impacted if they try to comprehend what is in fact written as it is written. So to me you are no different from the others who hide behind pastors and mogs from God's Truth.

Here's are a couple of questions you ought to have asked and maybe gained understanding of in this case

A. What is the key to the Kingdom of Heaven - not fabled by the way- meant to do?

B. What purpose does it serve in the hands of a man who has already entered into t he Kingdom of God?
What is the purpose of quoting without understanding?

You of all people on Nairaland is accusing someone of not reasoning and comprehension? You Kobojunkie? Oh my days!?

Baba If you want to engage, I full ground but the issue with you is that you lack comprehension skills, you too dey go round in circles, your doctrines are warp and your interpretations are wack.

But that doesn't mean I can't engage, I can. Afterall Jesus was patient enough with his disciples even wehn they asked somewaht stupid questions, even when they don't seem to grasp the simplest of stuff. Sometimes he explained and sometimes he did with a bit of rough sacarasm and a bit of subtle jive at such stupidity.

If you want to engage, please do. I full ground. From Genesis to Revelation.

@MaxInDHouse ; please carefully read my last message for you below

Unlike the Trinitarians, the Jehovah witnesses do not believe that Jesus is God. However, like other Christian denominations, they also believe that God created everything THROUGH Jesus Christ . They believe that God did not create anything EXCEPT Jesus (the only begotten son : John 3:16) . That is to say: Jehovah created Jesus, and then, acting on the instruction of Jehovah, Jesus created all other things including the heavens and the earth. So according to their claim, Jesus is the immediate Creator of all other things.


That God created everything through Jesus Christ is no where to be found in the Gospel of Matthew, Mark and Luke. It is only found in the books written by Paul and John;


"Yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, THROUGH WHOM ALL THINGS CAME and through whom we live.( 1st Corinthians 8:6)".


For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; ALL THINGS HAVE BEEN CREATED THROUGH him and for him ( Colossians 1:16).


THROUGH him ALL THINGS WERE MADE ; without him nothing was made that has been made (John 1:3)


But is it really true that God assigned the creation of all other things, including the heavens and earth, to Jesus christ ? Let see what God Almighty say about this matter ;


"This is what the LORD says, your Redeemer and the one who formed you in the womb: 'I am the LORD, who has made everything, who ALONE stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth BY MYSELF (WHO WAS WITH ME ?) (Isaiah 44:24 KJV, NWT)


"MY OWN HAND laid the foundations of the earth, and MY RIGHT HAND spread out the heavens; when I summon them, they all stand up together. (Isaiah 48:13)".


It is I who made the earth and created mankind on it. MY OWN HANDS stretched out the heavens; I marshaled their starry hosts (Isaiah 45:12)


"For My HAND made all these things, Thus all these things came into being," declares the LORD ( Isaiah 66:2)


As you can see from above, Paul and John proclaimed that God assigned the creation of all other things to Jesus Christ. But God Almighty declare that He created all things ALL ALONE, BY HIMSELF, BY HIS OWN HANDS AND NOBODY WAS WITH HIM.


What better words do we want God to use before we can believe that He created the heavens and the earth without the assistance of anybody ?



If a man hires a contractor as his agent to build a house, could the man say that he built the house “ALL ALONE” and "BY HIS OWN HANDS" without lying? So could God Almighty have lied about creating the heavens and the earth by His own hands while He actually used another distinct person as His agent to actually do the creation for Him?

Is it even logically right to believe that God assigned the creation of all things to another person other than Himself ?
Let consider the following questions;

1. How do we know that God really exist ? Was it not through His act of creation ?

2. Why does God deserve our worship ? Was it not because He is our creator ?

Does it now make sense to believe that God assigned the creation of all things to another person given that it is through that very act of creation we acknowledged His existence and through it He deserve our worship ?


Honestly, if God really assigned the creation of all things to another person, then "all what that make God to be God" has been given out to that person. Of course, this is impossible because God has declared that He would NEVER give out His glory to another person (Isaiah 48:11, 42:8-9). Yet there is no any God's glory that is greater than the glory of General Creation.


Furthermore, you will agree with me that the reasonable response of the creature is to worship their Creator (Revelation 14:7) . Now if somebody else other than God is our immediate Creator, then that person also deserve our worship. Yet, only God deserve to be worship (Matthew 4:10). This is exactly the reason why God would never assigned the creation of things to any other person other than Himself as He clearly stated above: "BY MYSELF( Isaiah 44:24)".


So apart from Isaiah 44:24, 48:13 and others which make us to know that God did not assign the act of general creation to anybody other than Himself, we also logically know that such kind of assignment is not true because it would be equivalent to God's giving out His Glory to another; something He promised never to do.


But despite all this exegesis, the Jehovah witnesses still insist that God created all other things through Jesus Christ and they even cite Proverbs 8:22-30 to buttress their claim.


But if Jesus was really the master worker ( see Proverbs 8:30 NWT) that Jehovah used to create ALL OTHER THINGS, then all the series of commands causing the heavens, the earth, the light, the animals and the plants into existence should be coming directly from JESUS' MOUTH

But unfortunately, this is not so !


See below what happened during the time of creation;


Genesis 1: 3, 6, 9, 11, 14, 20, 24

1:3 And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light.

1:6 And God said, "Let there be an expanse between the waters to separate water from water."

1:9 And God said, "Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear." And it was so.

1:11 Then God said, "Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds." And it was so.

1:14 And God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark seasons and days and years,

1:20 And God said, "Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the expanse of the sky."

1:24 And God said, "Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: livestock, creatures that move along the ground, and wild animals, each according to its kind." And it was so.

As you can see from above; at the beginning, the heavens, the earth, the animals and plants were created by the series of commands coming out from GOD'S MOUTH: NOT FROM JESUS' MOUTH


So how exactly did God employ Jesus as a master worker of creation ?

Some of the JWs answer this question by saying that Jehovah was only issuing the order and it was Jesus that actually performed the work (Proverbs 8:30 NWT)

But If truly Jehovah was only issuing the order and it was Jesus that actually performed the work, then who supposed to be refreshed and rested from all his work ? Was it not Jesus ?


But see again what the following verses say;

"And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He RESTED on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He RESTED from all His work which God had CREATED and MADE (Genesis 2:2-3)"

"It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel forever; for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day He RESTED and was REFRESHED (Exodus 31:17)".


So why did Jehovah have to REST and REFRESH Himself on the seventh day if it was Jesus that was doing the work and Jehovah was only giving the order ?

In conclusion, Jesus did NOTHING because it was Jehovah that gave those series of commands (Genesis 1:3-26) and it was Jehovah again that did the work because He was the person that need to rest and refresh Himself on the seventh day (Genesis 2:2-3, Exodus 31:17, 20:11).


This is exactly the confirmation of God's word when God said ALL ALONE , by MYSELF (Isaiah 44:24) and with MY OWN HANDS (Isaiah 48:13) did I create the heavens and the earth.


Hence, Proverbs 8:22-30 can only be referring to the wisdom or master plan firstly produced by God before the actual creation of things just like an architect firstly produce a building plan before the actual building of the house. So it was this wisdom or master plan that was personified in this very passage.


Therefore, Paul and John completely got it wrong by asserting that all other things were created through Jesus Christ (1st Corinthians 8:6, Colossians 1:16-17, John 1:3).

No wonder that Gospels of Matthew, Mark and Luke did not mention such thing.

Abdulgaffar22:

You said above that it's the common Jews who killed Jesus that were targeting Paul.
Please read what James and the elders said to Paul when he got to Jerusalem ;
When they heard this, they praised God. Then they said to Paul: “You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed, and all of them are zealous for the law.They have been informed that you teach all the Jews who live among the Gentiles to turn away from Moses telling them not to circumcise their children or live according to our customs.(AH) What shall we do? They will certainly hear that you have come, so do what we tell you. There are four men with us who have made a vow. Take these men, join in their purification rites and pay their expenses, so that they can have their heads shaved. Then everyone will know there is no truth in these reports about you, but that you yourself are living in obedience to the law (Acts 21:20-24)

Many thousands of Jews mentioned above are obviously Christian Jews. Yet you're claiming that they were common Jews. Please let us try to be sincere in our argument.

You are quoting the scriptures out of context!

There are zealots (Revolutionary movement members of the first century Jewish community) this group are ever ready for the time someone will lead them to revolt against the Roman authority, Peter and some among Jesus' disciples were former members of this group that's why when Jesus told them to buy swords (daggers) two among the eleven men brought out their own Jesus said "it's enough"{Luke 22:36-38} because that's not the type of sword he meant {Ephesians 6:17; Hebrews 4:12} they taught Jesus is now ready to lead them into battle against Rome but they were later disappointed when Jesus rebuked Peter who made use of his own dagger to fight in support of Jesus! Matthew 26:52

So the four men who have vowed with other unbelieving Jews are now new converts in Christianity that's why the Apostles told Paul to go out with these former zealots who will shave their heads as a sign of repentance that they're no longer part of that murderous plan!

The problem with this thread is that you feel God is limited to the Bible, whereas the Bible records that there were so many things Jesus did which could not be recorded for volume sake.

Secondly, God has not stopped revealing himself to people. This is consistent with John 3:16, for God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believeth in him will not perish but have everlasting life.

Do you know God revealed himself in Nigeria? So you mentioning Paul, means that you are ignorant of the fact that Christianity has constantly been visited by God's appearance and fellowship with the church.

In Nigeria, God sent Moses Tunolase Orimolade, the founder of the Cherubim & Seraphim Church also known as "Ijo Aladura".

In addition, God raised Joseph Ayo Babalola, the first general evangelist of CAC, and the one christened Apostle after his death because of the mighty move of God in his life.

Apostle Babalola was an epitome of humility. He embodied Jesus in person. He was a man of prayer and fasting.

Till tomorrow, the prayer mountains he founded in South Western Nigeria are places of spiritual pilgrimage for people who seek to receive answers from God.

In Kwara state, Ekiti state, Ondo state, Oyo state, and Osun state, the prayer mountains established by these men are still in existence with people trooping there to get help.

Odo-owa, Ikiire, Efon-Alaaye, Ede, Akinkemi, Erio, Ido-ajinare, Erinmo, Olorunkole, Akoko and Epinmi-Akoko are some locations where these historical mountains exist. Ido-ajinare is the triple level mountain where the third level is only for genuine prophets and not mere adherents.

There's a university named after Apostle Joseph Ayo Babalola on the Highway between Ondo and Osun state.

The University is located close to the stream of water blessed by the Apostle where people go to pray and drink the water for divine healing and conception.

I will advise you update your research. What you think you know is just a lob-sided understanding of things beyond rudimentary human knowledge.

The concept of God, Inspired writings, prophet and religion will make no sense in the absence of demonstrations from adherents or believers! Hebrews 11:1

Whatever we read in BOOKS is not enough to authenticate whatever we claim to believe if our so called faith can't WORK out something worthwhile in the way the so called believers fair in the society. James 2:18-26

In the hears of any right thinking person who has nothing to do with religion all what we read in those books could be likened to common THEORIES just like the theory of evolution. What we claiming believers practice to those who don't have anything to do with our books are like PRACTICAL APPLICATIONS of what we found in our books. But then it's the fine WORKS (FRUIT) that comes as a result of our theories and practical applications which is the BENEFITS that will judge whoever choose to disbelieve the book we claim as God's word.

So my friend whether it's YHWH, Allah, Jupiter, Zeus, Hermes, Krishna, Ọbalúayé or any other God everything we read in books are common fairy tales if there is nothing to write home about as BENEFITS in the way we relate with our neighbours! Mark 12:31

That's why JEHOVAH the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob declared saying:

“You are my witnesses,” “Yes, my servant whom I have chosen, So that you may know and have faith in me And understand that I am the same One. Before me no God was formed, And after me there has been none! Isaiah 43:10

So in the absence of WITNESSES organized throughout the earth doing God's will which is something BENEFICIAL to the entire human race {Isaiah 2:2-4; Micah 4:1-3} ọmọ forget there is no God!

Abdulgaffar22:
@MaxInDHouse ; please carefully read my last message for you below

Unlike the Trinitarians, the Jehovah witnesses do not believe that Jesus is God. However, like other Christian denominations, they also believe that God created everything THROUGH Jesus Christ . They believe that God did not create anything EXCEPT Jesus (the only begotten son : John 3:16) . That is to say: Jehovah created Jesus, and then, acting on the instruction of Jehovah, Jesus created all other things including the heavens and the earth. So according to their claim, Jesus is the immediate Creator of all other things.


That God created everything through Jesus Christ is no where to be found in the Gospel of Matthew, Mark and Luke. It is only found in the books written by Paul and John;


"Yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, THROUGH WHOM ALL THINGS CAME and through whom we live.( 1st Corinthians 8:6)".


For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; ALL THINGS HAVE BEEN CREATED THROUGH him and for him ( Colossians 1:16).


THROUGH him ALL THINGS WERE MADE ; without him nothing was made that has been made (John 1:3)


But is it really true that God assigned the creation of all other things, including the heavens and earth, to Jesus christ ? Let see what God Almighty say about this matter ;


"This is what the LORD says, your Redeemer and the one who formed you in the womb: 'I am the LORD, who has made everything, who ALONE stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth BY MYSELF (WHO WAS WITH ME ?) (Isaiah 44:24 KJV, NWT)


"MY OWN HAND laid the foundations of the earth, and MY RIGHT HAND spread out the heavens; when I summon them, they all stand up together. (Isaiah 48:13)".


It is I who made the earth and created mankind on it. MY OWN HANDS stretched out the heavens; I marshaled their starry hosts (Isaiah 45:12)


"For My HAND made all these things, Thus all these things came into being," declares the LORD ( Isaiah 66:2)


As you can see from above, Paul and John proclaimed that God assigned the creation of all other things to Jesus Christ. But God Almighty declare that He created all things ALL ALONE, BY HIMSELF, BY HIS OWN HANDS AND NOBODY WAS WITH HIM.


What better words do we want God to use before we can believe that He created the heavens and the earth without the assistance of anybody ?



If a man hires a contractor as his agent to build a house, could the man say that he built the house “ALL ALONE” and "BY HIS OWN HANDS" without lying? So could God Almighty have lied about creating the heavens and the earth by His own hands while He actually used another distinct person as His agent to actually do the creation for Him?

Is it even logically right to believe that God assigned the creation of all things to another person other than Himself ?
Let consider the following questions;

1. How do we know that God really exist ? Was it not through His act of creation ?

2. Why does God deserve our worship ? Was it not because He is our creator ?

Does it now make sense to believe that God assigned the creation of all things to another person given that it is through that very act of creation we acknowledged His existence and through it He deserve our worship ?


Honestly, if God really assigned the creation of all things to another person, then "all what that make God to be God" has been given out to that person. Of course, this is impossible because God has declared that He would NEVER give out His glory to another person (Isaiah 48:11, 42:8-9). Yet there is no any God's glory that is greater than the glory of General Creation.


Furthermore, you will agree with me that the reasonable response of the creature is to worship their Creator (Revelation 14:7) . Now if somebody else other than God is our immediate Creator, then that person also deserve our worship. Yet, only God deserve to be worship (Matthew 4:10). This is exactly the reason why God would never assigned the creation of things to any other person other than Himself as He clearly stated above: "BY MYSELF( Isaiah 44:24)".


So apart from Isaiah 44:24, 48:13 and others which make us to know that God did not assign the act of general creation to anybody other than Himself, we also logically know that such kind of assignment is not true because it would be equivalent to God's giving out His Glory to another; something He promised never to do.


But despite all this exegesis, the Jehovah witnesses still insist that God created all other things through Jesus Christ and they even cite Proverbs 8:22-30 to buttress their claim.


But if Jesus was really the master worker ( see Proverbs 8:30 NWT) that Jehovah used to create ALL OTHER THINGS, then all the series of commands causing the heavens, the earth, the light, the animals and the plants into existence should be coming directly from JESUS' MOUTH

But unfortunately, this is not so !


See below what happened during the time of creation;


Genesis 1: 3, 6, 9, 11, 14, 20, 24

1:3 And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light.

1:6 And God said, "Let there be an expanse between the waters to separate water from water."

1:9 And God said, "Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear." And it was so.

1:11 Then God said, "Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds." And it was so.

1:14 And God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark seasons and days and years,

1:20 And God said, "Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the expanse of the sky."

1:24 And God said, "Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: livestock, creatures that move along the ground, and wild animals, each according to its kind." And it was so.

As you can see from above; at the beginning, the heavens, the earth, the animals and plants were created by the series of commands coming out from GOD'S MOUTH: NOT FROM JESUS' MOUTH


So how exactly did God employ Jesus as a master worker of creation ?

Some of the JWs answer this question by saying that Jehovah was only issuing the order and it was Jesus that actually performed the work (Proverbs 8:30 NWT)

But If truly Jehovah was only issuing the order and it was Jesus that actually performed the work, then who supposed to be refreshed and rested from all his work ? Was it not Jesus ?


But see again what the following verses say;

"And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He RESTED on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He RESTED from all His work which God had CREATED and MADE (Genesis 2:2-3)"

"It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel forever; for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day He RESTED and was REFRESHED (Exodus 31:17)".


So why did Jehovah have to REST and REFRESH Himself on the seventh day if it was Jesus that was doing the work and Jehovah was only giving the order ?

In conclusion, Jesus did NOTHING because it was Jehovah that gave those series of commands (Genesis 1:3-26) and it was Jehovah again that did the work because He was the person that need to rest and refresh Himself on the seventh day (Genesis 2:2-3, Exodus 31:17, 20:11).


This is exactly the confirmation of God's word when God said ALL ALONE , by MYSELF (Isaiah 44:24) and with MY OWN HANDS (Isaiah 48:13) did I create the heavens and the earth.


Hence, Proverbs 8:22-30 can only be referring to the wisdom or master plan firstly produced by God before the actual creation of things just like an architect firstly produce a building plan before the actual building of the house. So it was this wisdom or master plan that was personified in this very passage.


Therefore, Paul and John completely got it wrong by asserting that all other things were created through Jesus Christ (1st Corinthians 8:6, Colossians 1:16-17, John 1:3).

No wonder that Gospels of Matthew, Mark and Luke did not mention such thing.

Tboy222:


Why are you avoiding my question? Jesus clearly told his apostles that the Holy Spirit who shew them all truth, the same Holy Spirit which shewed the lies and deceit of ananias and sapphira to Peter and killed them on the spot.

The same Holy Spirit that showed the deceit of Simon the sorcerer to Philip at Samaria, yet that same Holy Spirit did not show the apostles that Paul the apostle was an imposter when he
Joined himself to them at Jerusalem.

Now let's pretend that Satan appeared to Paul the apostle in guise of Jesus, while would Satan compel paul to preach Christ to the gentiles and lead them to Heaven thought it was the other way round.

How did paul who was sent by the devil as you have claimed confront Peter the rock who had the Holy Spirit and had seen the real Jesus, yet the same Paul confronted him on the issue of circumcision of the gentiles in front of the other twelve apostles who all had the Holy Spirit and had all seen the real Jesus and none of them dared say a word.

Now from your moniker you appear to be a Muslim, well I will leave it at that and hand you over to christ.

Sir, my questions concerning the holy spirit Jesus promised are these:

1. When exactly was the manifestation of this Holy Spirit?

2. What is during his ministry or after his ministry?

I asked because the Bible I have at home have dozens of references where the Holy spirit is mentioned to have visited individuals, even Jesus himself and Jesus while sending them out 2 and 2 also says " receive ye the holy spirit

Abeg sir clear my doubts.

AntiChristian:


In John 20:21 says Jesus said “Peace be with you"...in his statement.

Where did Jesus call himself peace in the Bible?

And you lied that Jesus is not like Moses!

The LORD told Moses in Deuteronomy 18:18
I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their fellow Israelites, and I will put my words in his mouth. He will tell them everything I command him.

So who is the Prophet that is like Moses?

Muhammad right?

No..Joshua..

Kobojunkie:
How do you decide whether you lived a holy and peaceful life? By what standard do you base this?

Conscience..

Kobojunkie:
How do you decide whether you lived a holy and peaceful life? By what standard do you base this?

Conscience..
The laws has been written there..

sonmvayina:

Conscience..
The laws has been written there..

The conscience comes with the golden rule as Jesus Christ of Nazareth explained:

“All things, therefore, that you want men to do to you, you also must do to them" Matthew 7:12

There's no prophet or law that stated this anywhere!

So deny Jesus Christ of Nazareth and continue arguing pointlessly!

MaxInDHouse:


The conscience comes with the golden rule as Jesus Christ of Nazareth explained:

“All things, therefore, that you want men to do to you, you also must do to them" Matthew 7:12

There's no prophet or law that stated this anywhere!

So deny Jesus Christ of Nazareth and continue arguing pointlessly!

I want a Mouth Action,

Can you give me,

I will give you too.


Olodo like you....

sonmvayina:

I want a Mouth Action,
Can you give me,
I will give you too.
Olodo like you....

How does mouth action correlates with what you've been trying to say?
So in a nutshell you've been finding it difficult to relate with my comments no wonder you're running away as if something is pursuing you!

No wahala, keep going in circus just know that no matter how long you deny Jesus there is no way you can relate with the God of Abraham because He never claim to be the god your ancestors worshiped. The one and only person that connected the rest of the world to the God of Abraham is Jesus Christ of Nazareth! Matthew 28:18-20

You can never ever find any scripture where the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob sent any of His servants to go and connect gentiles except through Jesus of Nazareth!

MaxInDHouse:
The concept of God, Inspired writings, prophet and religion will make no sense in the absence of demonstrations from adherents or believers! Hebrews 11:1

Whatever we read in BOOKS is not enough to authenticate whatever we claim to believe if our so called faith can't WORK out something worthwhile in the way the so called believers fair in the society. James 2:18-26

In the hears of any right thinking person who has nothing to do with religion all what we read in those books could be likened to common THEORIES just like the theory of evolution. What we claiming believers practice to those who don't have anything to do with our books are like PRACTICAL APPLICATIONS of what we found in our books. But then it's the fine WORKS (FRUIT) that comes as a result of our theories and practical applications which is the BENEFITS that will judge whoever choose to disbelieve the book we claim as God's word.

So my friend whether it's YHWH, Allah, Jupiter, Zeus, Hermes, Krishna, Ọbalúayé or any other God everything we read in books are common fairy tales if there is nothing to write home about as BENEFITS in the way we relate with our neighbours! Mark 12:31

That's why JEHOVAH the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob declared saying:

“You are my witnesses,” “Yes, my servant whom I have chosen, So that you may know and have faith in me And understand that I am the same One. Before me no God was formed, And after me there has been none! Isaiah 43:10

So in the absence of WITNESSES organized throughout the earth doing God's will which is something BENEFICIAL to the entire human race {Isaiah 2:2-4; Micah 4:1-3} ọmọ forget there is no God!

The similitude of a watch tower organization is like the case of of a very generous man that got his wealth through money ritual

THEORY; the origin of the money is evil

PRACTICAL APPLICATION: giving out the money for assistance

BENEFIT: the lives of the orphans, the poor and the widow in his town change for the better

You will agree with me that there is nothing wrong with practical application and benefit. But the THEORY will still cause the man to fall sooner or later.

Similarly, watch tower organization may not have problem with practical application and benefit but their THEORY will still cause the organization to fall sooner or later

This is one the major problems you are having with your theory ;

You are in state of dilemma regarding the Spirit of truth made mentioned by Jesus in John 16:12-13: you don't want to accept this Spirit as the 3rd person of Holy Trinity and you don't want to accept the Spirit as Angel Gabriel that spoke to Muhammad (pbuh). Yet it is certain that this Spirit of truth is not an active force that can neither hear nor speak.

Even, if you think your PRACTICAL APPLICATION and BENEFIT are okay, your THEORY would make you to fall because according to your logic, the THREE must be complete. Beside, the theory is the foundation. If the foundation of a building is very WEAK, then the building would soon collapse no matter how beautiful the building may look in the eyes of its beholders.

Abdulgaffar22:


The similitude of a watch tower organization is like the case of of a very generous man that got his wealth through money ritual

THEORY; the origin of the money is evil

PRACTICAL APPLICATION: giving out the money for assistance

BENEFIT: the lives of the orphans, the poor and the widow in his town change for the better

You will agree with me that there is nothing wrong with practical application and benefit. But the THEORY will still cause the man to fall sooner or later.

Similarly, watch tower organization may not have problem with practical application and benefit but their THEORY will still cause the organization to fall sooner or later

This is one the major problems you are having with your theory ;

You are in state of dilemma regarding the Spirit of truth made mentioned by Jesus in John 16:12-13: you don't want to accept this Spirit as the 3rd person of Holy Trinity and you don't want to accept the Spirit as Angel Gabriel that spoke to Muhammad (pbuh). Yet it is certain that this Spirit of truth is not an active force that can neither hear nor speak.

Even, if you think your PRACTICAL APPLICATION and BENEFIT are okay, your THEORY would make you to fall because according to your logic, the THREE must be complete. Beside, the theory is the foundation. If the foundation of a building is very WEAK, then the building would soon collapse no matter how beautiful the building may look in the eyes of its beholders.

You got it all wrong Sir!

The THEORY in this regard is the book we are studying and based our beliefs on which is the BIBLE.
The PRACTICAL APPLICATION is the group making research on how to get things right a century ago.
The BENEFIT is the Organization of JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES today.

Just as the THEORY of your religion is found in a book known as Qu'ran, the PRACTICAL APPLICATION is what Muhammad explained to his disciples and the BENEFIT is ISLAM as it is globally known today.

So instead of arguing based on what either the Bible or Qur'an or Ifa or Buddha or Krishna or any other books says regarding God. We only need to focus on the end result because as you rightly said if the foundation is faulty the end result will not benefit anyone.

I have told you the BENEFITS of JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES organization as God's word foretold in the Bible book of Isaiah 2:2-4 so whatever you think about what Bible says is immaterial now because it will never dance to the tune of your own THEORY (Qu'ran)

So leave the contradictions in the theories of different religions and let's concentrate on the BENEFITS because if it's not from GOD it can never benefits creatures worshiping God! Matthew 7:16-18

Lukuluku69:
1. You of all people on Nairaland is accusing someone of not reasoning and comprehension? You Kobojunkie? Oh my days!?

Baba If you want to engage, I full ground but the issue with you is that you lack comprehension skills, you too dey go round in circles, your doctrines are warp and your interpretations are wack.

But that doesn't mean I can't engage, I can. Afterall Jesus was patient enough with his disciples even wehn they asked somewaht stupid questions, even when they don't seem to grasp the simplest of stuff. Sometimes he explained and sometimes he did with a bit of rough sacarasm and a bit of subtle jive at such stupidity.

If you want to engage, please do. I full ground. From Genesis to Revelation.

As is your pattern, you are already rushing to change the subject rather than attempt the questions which were posed so we can continue to discuss the matter at hand.

When you are ready to re-engage the issue of the keys to heaven, let me know.

Abdulgaffar22:
After the departure of Jesus (peace be upon him) from this world, a bright light from heaven that called himself Jesus of Nazareth flashed around a man called Paul (whose original name was Saul) on his way to Damascus;


"About noon as I came near Damascus, suddenly a bright light from heaven flashed around me. I fell to the ground and heard a voice say to me, ‘Saul! Saul! Why do you persecute me?’ Who are you, Lord?’ I asked. “ ‘I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom you are persecuting,’ he replied. My companions saw the light, but they did not understand the voice of him who was speaking to me (Acts 22:6-9)"



But did Paul (Saul) truly meet the original Jesus Christ (pbuh) on his way to Damascus ?


Let's consider the following points of evidence ;

1ST POINT OF EVIDENCE

Before Jesus (pbuh) left the surface of the earth, he forewarned the original apostles as follows:


"Take heed that no one deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying; I am the Christ; and shall deceive many (Matthew 24:4-5)…


“Then if anyone says here is Christ or there, do not believe it. For false christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. See, I have told you ahead of time. So if anyone tells you; Christ is out in the wilderness, do not go out; or Christ is in the inner rooms, do not believe it. For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the son of Man. Wherever there is a carcass, then the vultures will gather (Matthew 24:23-28)"


[Please take note of how the phrase "if anyone (which means without exception)" is being used repeatedly by Jesus in the verses above.]


“Watch out that you are not deceived. For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am he,’ and, ‘The time is near.’ Do not follow them Luke 21:8-9).


Jesus said to them: “Watch out that no one deceives you. Many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am he,’ and will deceive many (Mark 13:5-6)


In all the verses above, the disciples are commanded by Jesus(pbuh) not to believe in any account of a person who claim to have seen Jesus in a private manner prior to his universally-visible appearance to all. Jesus(pbuh) was telling us that his returning to earth again from heaven will be clear and unmistakable to everyone. That is to say, Jesus will be visible to every eye from every corner of the world in the same way that lightning that comes from the east is visible to those in the West . The people would gather to see Jesus coming from the heaven just like vultures gather over the carcass. Hence, any private appearances of Jesus to anyone or to only a few set of people before this universally public appearance should be ignored and discarded


Therefore, if Jesus’ private appearance to Paul in form of “a bright light from heaven" on his way to Damascus would be an exception to this great warning of not believing in private appearances of Christ, then Jesus (pbuh)should have foretold this exceptional event to the original apostles before he ascended to heaven. However, Jesus (pbuh) did not foretell anything like such.


2ND POINT OF EVIDENCE

Instead of foretelling to the original apostles that he would privately appear to someone like Paul in form of a bright light from heaven” before his universally-visible appearance to all, Jesus only informed them as follows;


"And he said unto them, “I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven (Luke10:18 KJV)".


That is to say, Jesus saw Satan in a form of a lightening falling from heaven. This is the appearance usually taken by Satan and this is the main reason why he was called Lucifer (which means light-bearer or morning star or shining one ) in Isaiah 14:12 KJV

[Lucifer is a combination of [lūx (light) + ferō (bear, carry) in Latin language]


But is it really reasonable to believe that it was Satan, and not Jesus, that revealed himself to Paul in form of lightning from heaven? Yes, it is not only reasonable but also provable by combining together the three strong facts below ;


1. Jesus has already forewarned the original apostles not to believe in any account of a person proclaiming private appearance of Christ, using repeatedly the phrase if anyone.... (which means without exception -see Matthew 24:23-28 quoted above)



2. If Jesus really foretold that he beheld Satan in a form of lightning fall from heaven (Luke 10:18 KJV), then Jesus would never emulate Satan by appearing in the same form to any chosen apostle. Yet it was the same lightning (i:e bright light) from heaven that revealed himself to Paul on his road to Damascus (see Acts 22:6-9 quoted above).



3. Matthew 24:36 clearly shows that Jesus does not know the actual day which general resurrection will take place and again Mark 11:12-14 clearly revealed that Jesus did not know that a distant fig tree had no fruits (until he reached the tree) which all implies that Jesus cannot be God who always has a perfect knowledge about all things.

Yet contrary to this basic fact, Paul indirectly proclaimed that Jesus is God by stating that all the fullness of God ( i:e the whole of divine nature) dwell in the body of Jesus Christ (Colossians 1:19, 2:9).

Hence stylishly, Paul caused the christians to commit the sin of idolatry by giving them the opportunity to take Jesus (who is only a man-- Acts 2:22) as a divine God.



See how all the evidence explained above support the fact that the bright light that revealed himself to Paul on his way to Damascus was not Jesus Christ but Satan in disguise - a ravening wolf that came in sheep's clothing (Matthew 7:15).


But despite this satanic delusion experienced by Paul, almost half of the books (13 out of 27) found in the New Testament were written by him alone.


Look at the foundation upon which the edifice of Christianity is erected !


This is the top secret that is clearly depicted in the Bible but which is still unknown to many Christians

Muslims think that because Islam is based on lies and fabrications, Christianity is like that too. Modern day Muslims are looking for ANYTHING they think they can find to discredit the Bible and Salvation in the Eternal Messiah.


TESTIMONIES FROM THE BIBLE
1. Unlike a so-called prophet who alone saw Jubril squeeze him three times and speak to him like a bell, Paul wasn't Evidenced Alone to his conversion:
Acts 9:10-11:
"And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord. And the Lord said to him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and inquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prays,"

Acts 9:15:
"But the Lord said to him, Go your way: for he is a chosen vessel to me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:"

Paul's eyes were opened (for he was blind) by one of the disciples of Christ.

Acts 22:12-13:
"And one Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good report of all the Jews which dwelled there, Came to me, and stood, and said to me, Brother Saul, receive your sight. And the same hour I looked up on him."
Abdulgaffar22 is saying that the "his Messanger of Satan" Paul was healed of blindness by the power of Christ.

This is an INDEPENDENT confirmation outside Paul for his conversion.

2. Unlike a so-called prophet who was given ZERO miracles (as other messangers of God) Just as Other Apostles, Paul was AUTHENTICATED and BACKED UP by Christ with power to Heal, Cast out demons and Miracles.

Acts 13:9-12:
"Then Saul, (who also is called Paul, ) filled with the Holy Ghost, set his eyes on him. And said, O full of all subtlety and all mischief, you child of the devil, you enemy of all righteousness, will you not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord? And now, behold, the hand of the Lord is on you, and you shall be blind, not seeing the sun for a season. And immediately there fell on him a mist and a darkness; and he went about seeking some to lead him by the hand. Then the deputy, when he saw what was done, believed, being astonished at the doctrine of the Lord."

Acts 19:11-13,15-17:
"And God worked special miracles by the hands of Paul: So that from his body were brought to the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them. Then certain of the vagabond Jews, exorcists, took on them to call over them which had evil spirits the name of the LORD Jesus, saying, We adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preaches. … And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are you? And the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, and overcame them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded. And this was known to all the Jews and Greeks also dwelling at Ephesus; [/b]and fear fell on them all, and the name of the Lord Jesus was magnified."


[b]3. Paul was with the Other Apostles of Christ, he was COMMISSIONED by the Apostles and he even at a time rebuked Peter for not doing like Christ as he feared the Jews.

Acts 15:2:
"When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and elders about this question."

Acts 15:22:
"Then pleased it the apostles and elders with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas and Silas, chief men among the brothers:"

Gal 2:11-12:
"But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision."


4. This same Paul was imprisoned several times and finally killed by the Romans for Preaching Christ!


5. The message of Paul was not different from that of the other Apostles:
Acts 26:22-23:
"Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue to this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come: That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should show light to the people, and to the Gentiles."


5. Peter Authenticated the Writings of Paul:

2Pet 3:15:
"And account that the long-suffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given to him has written to you;"


TESTIMONY FROM ISLAMIC SOURCES
Abdulgaffar22 is also basking under the failed euphoria that Christians would never read their hadiths and Tafsirs about this Paul they hate so much. What do the earlier respected Muslims view of this Paul.

Let's hear what they've said.

The basis is Qur'an 36:13-29 where Allah himself speaking about two and a third Messanger that he sent to the companions of a city.

1. According to Bishr b. Mu‘adh- Yazid b. Zuray‘- Sa‘id- Qatadah regarding the following passage: "Spin a parable for them- the inhabitants of the city, when the messengers came to it. When We sent them to men, they declared them liars; so We sent a third as reinforcement. They said, ‘We are assuredly messengers unto you.’" It was mentioned to us that Jesus, the son of Mary, sent two of the apostles to Antioch, a Roman city; but they were declared liars , so he sent a third as reinforcement. They said, "We are assuredly messengers," etc. (The History of Al-Tabari, Volume IV, The Ancient Kingdoms)

Although Ibn Kathir rejects the interpretation that the envoys were the Apostles of Christ, his comments are interesting nonetheless:

<so We reinforced them with a third> means, ‘We supported and strengthened them with a third Messenger.’ Ibn Jurayj narrated from Wahb bin Sulayman, from Shu’ayb Al-Jaba’i, "The names of the first two Messengers were Sham’un and Yuhanna, and the name of the third was Bulus, and the city was Antioch ...

For those who don't know BULUS is the Arabic form for Paul.

2. Al-Suyuti, another renowned exegete, concurs with the Salaf that the three messengers mentioned in S. 36:13-29 were Peter, John and Paul:

Verses 14-27

Narrated Ibn S'âd and Ibn Asakir by the authority of Abi Saleh and Ibn Abbas who said:

There was a one thousand and nine hundred years gap between the time of Moses the son of Imran and Jesus. During which time one thousand prophets were sent to the people of Israel. And there was five hundred and sixty nine years gap between the birth of Jesus and the time of Muhammad. During the first part of this gap, three prophets were sent. The third one of these prophets WAS SIMON.

Narrated Ibn Abi Hatim by the authority of Shuwaib Al Jabâ'ayee who said: The names of the first two messengers were Simon and John. And the name of the third one was Paul.

Narrated Ibn al-Monthere from Saed bin Jubayr who said: The name of the third messenger was Paul.

We might want to ask Muslims how the name of Paul entered their Tafsirs?
https://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/christs_apostles.htm


When ancient old great men of Islam have spoken, modern day baby Muslims begin to speak lies again.

When we ask Muslims questions, they pretend they never saw it.
Repent, turn to the Lord JESUS Christ and be saved.


Your prophet coveted and took the wife of his own adopted son AND then because people were complaining of this EVIL, he ABROGATED Adoption and your God (Allah authorized this great SIN). I pity Zaid, he got no option if he wants to stay alive.

I asked you Muslims important Questions and you ignored it because you are EMBARRASSED by your prophet.

Please, before responding to this, answer this Question:
THE QUESTION:
It is understandable if Allah Deceived the Jews and the Romans. Can you as Muslims please explain the logical reason why Allah Deceived ALSO Mary the Mother of Jesus, all Jesus Disciples, Jesus's Family (brothers and sisters) and all followers and friends of Jesus?

I rest my case

sonmvayina:
Conscience..
The laws has been written there..

Who wrote these laws, and when?
Where are you told that these laws are written there in your conscience?
Where is it written that you will be judged by your conscience?
What does this supposed judgment amount to beyond the feeling of guilty we occasionally experience in this world?

sonmvayina:
Conscience..

Why is your conscience a reliable standard for such things? Who decided it should be? When was this decision made? By whom? How?

Kobojunkie:
Why is your conscience a reliable standard for such things? Who decided it should be? When was this decision made? By whom? How?

Your choices....

Kobojunkie:
Who wrote these laws, and when?
Where are you told that these laws are written there in your conscience?
Where is it written that you will be judged by your conscience?
What does this supposed judgment amount to beyond the feeling of guilty we occasionally experience in this world?

You have already answered your questions in the last line ..

sonmvayina:
Your choices....

This answers none of the questions asked.

Again, Why is your conscience a reliable standard for such things? Who decided it should be? When was this decision made? By whom? How?

sonmvayina:
You have already answered your questions in the last line ..

If you are here to waste my time again... I can go back to ignoring you...

Again.... Who wrote these laws, and when?
Where are you told that these laws are written there in your conscience?
Where is it written that you will be judged by your conscience?
What does this supposed judgment amount to beyond the feeling of guilty we occasionally experience in this world?

Kobojunkie:
Who wrote these laws, and when?
Where are you told that these laws are written there in your conscience?
Where is it written that you will be judged by your conscience?
What does this supposed judgment amount to beyond the feeling of guilty we occasionally experience in this world?

How often do you insult your parents ?
Or lie with someone else spouse ?

sonmvayina:
How often do you insult your parents ?
Or lie with someone else spouse ?

That I personally don't do these things you have listed above does not mean others don't so without remorse, again, answer the questions.

Who wrote these laws, and when?
Where are you told that these laws are written there in your conscience?
Where is it written that you will be judged by your conscience?
What does this supposed judgment amount to beyond the feeling of guilty we occasionally experience in this world?

Kobojunkie:
This answers none of the questions asked.

Again, Why is your conscience a reliable standard for such things? Who decided it should be? When was this decision made? By whom? How?

Like I said...it's your choice..

God has placed both good and evil before or in front of you..

Whichever one your conscience tell you to do..

If you are wise enough to choose good, you will reap the reward, and if you are foolish to choose evil, you as well reap the reward..

In both cases a reward awaits..

But the goal(heaven) is to live in peace and prosper..

Kobojunkie:
That I personally don't do these things you have listed above does not mean others don't so without remorse, again, answer the questions.

Who wrote these laws, and when?
Where are you told that these laws are written there in your conscience?
Where is it written that you will be judged by your conscience?
What does this supposed judgment amount to beyond the feeling of guilty we occasionally experience in this world?

Our creator did..

It is part of our nature as human..

sonmvayina:
1. Like I said...it's your choice.. God has placed both good and evil before or in front of you..

2. Whichever one your conscience tell you to do..If you are wise enough to choose good, you will reap the reward, and if you are foolish to choose evil, you as well reap the reward..In both cases a reward awaits..But the goal(heaven) is to live in peace and prosper..

1. God's judgment is a personal choice for me to make. What sort of bullsheet claim is that? You brought up the conscience as a standard where God is concerned yet you cannot answer simple questions as to when exactly it was made such.

2. These ramblings of yours make no sense. What has my conscience to do with God and His Heaven when I can switch the channels on my conscience whenever I choose - I can decide tomorrow that fking my neighbor's wife is my right and not evil and I will no longer experience guilt when I do so - meaning it is not a reliable standard as far as God is concerned?

sonmvayina:
Our creator did..
It is part of our nature as human..

Again.... Who wrote these laws, and when?
Where are you told that these laws are written there in your conscience? undecided
Where is it written that you will be judged by your conscience?
What does this supposed judgment amount to beyond the feeling of guilty we occasionally experience in this world?

Stop submitting the musings of your mind as if facts... present evidence for your claims.