₦airaland Forum

HolyHolla: Are you kidding me? So, all these show that the Spirit of God is an angel?

It is apparent that Mohammed never read the Holy Books he referred to, but only hesrd oral histories. The Bible had not been translated into Arabic, which was the only language Mohammed knew, but even could neither resd nor write. You too have coroborrated that fact, so I need to flog a dead ass there.

On the other hand you could see that he had only half information on most of the stories he quoted from the Torah and Talmund as well as pseudo apocryphal books and NT. Imagine, in the story of Abraham's sacrifice of his son, Ishmael replaces Isaac. In the other stories he quoted from the OT, Gnostic books and apocryphals, he jumbles up the real stories with myths. That is proof that he had only half information from people, but not all. He then goes on to claim that he was inspired to speak these errors!!!

Evidences that he, Mohammed was not inspired to know, but heard of these stories are in the Quran:

"Has not the story reached you, of those who (went) before you? - of the people of Noah, and Ad and Thamud? - And those who (came) after them ..." Abraham XIV 9.

"Verily Allah will judge between them as to the schisms amongst them, on the Day of Judgment.
"If thou wert in doubt as to what we have revealed unto thee: then ask those who have been reading the Book (Bible) before thee: the truth hath indeed come to thee from thy lord so be in no wise of those in doubt" Jonah X 93b -94.

The story of Adam, Noah, Abraham, Joseph, Joshua, Jonah, the Rich Fool in NT and several others were mixed with mumbo jumbos. No wonder, he believed Gnostics claim that Jesus was not crucified, but replaced by another person on the cross. That controversial idea had existed long before Mohammed and had been debunked by Church Councils. I will conclude that the reason why Mohammed said Muslims should not dispute with Jews and Christians is because he knew that his errorneous stories would be discovered and debunked by the truth.

While defending his plagiarism from those who knew better, and had accused him of forgery, he said,

"When we substitute one revelation for another, - and Allah knows best what he reveals - they say, "Thou art but a forger" but most of them know not" The Bee XVI 101.

"We know indeed that they say, "It is man that teaches him". The tongue of him they wickedly point to is notably foreign, while this is Arabic, pure and clear" The Bee XVI 103.

Imagine, one who never read the books he quoted in error accusing others who may have been experts in these writings of lack of knowlege! That is mischievous!!!

When accused of lacking inspiration because he had no signs and wonders following his teachings, he said:

"And the unbelievers say, "Why is not a sign sent down to him from his Lord?" But thou art truly a warner, and to every people (an ordinary) guide" The Thunder XIII 7.

When accused of trying to molest a relative's wife, (wife of Ummu Hani' binti Abu) he claimed that a flying horse transported him into the neighbor's premises by a miracle!!! I hope you don't need me to give you a reference for that. Google Mohammed's flying horse story.

HolyHolla: Are you kidding me? So, all these show that the Spirit of God is an angel?

It is apparent that Mohammed never read the Holy Books he referred to, but only hesrd oral histories. The Bible had not been translated into Arabic, which was the only language Mohammed knew, but even could neither resd nor write. You too have coroborrated that fact, so I need to flog a dead ass there.

On the other hand you could see that he had only half information on most of the stories he quoted from the Torah and Talmund as well as pseudo apocryphal books and NT. Imagine, in the story of Abraham's sacrifice of his son, Ishmael replaces Isaac. In the other stories he quoted from the OT, Gnostic books and apocryphals, he jumbles up the real stories with myths. That is proof that he had only half information from people, but not all. He then goes on to claim that he was inspired to speak these errors!!!

Evidences that he, Mohammed was not inspired to know, but heard of these stories are in the Quran:

"Has not the story reached you, of those who (went) before you? - of the people of Noah, and Ad and Thamud? - And those who (came) after them ..." Abraham XIV 9.

"Verily Allah will judge between them as to the schisms amongst them, on the Day of Judgment.
"If thou wert in doubt as to what we have revealed unto thee: then ask those who have been reading the Book (Bible) before thee: the truth hath indeed come to thee from thy lord so be in no wise of those in doubt" Jonah X 93b -94.

The story of Adam, Noah, Abraham, Joseph, Joshua, Jonah, the Rich Fool in NT and several others were mixed with mumbo jumbos. No wonder, he believed Gnostics claim that Jesus was not crucified, but replaced by another person on the cross. That controversial idea had existed long before Mohammed and had been debunked by Church Councils. I will conclude that the reason why Mohammed said Muslims should not dispute with Jews and Christians is because he knew that his errorneous stories would be discovered and debunked by the truth.

While defending his plagiarism from those who knew better, and had accused him of forgery, he said,

"When we substitute one revelation for another, - and Allah knows best what he reveals - they say, "Thou art but a forger" but most of them know not" The Bee XVI 101.

"We know indeed that they say, "It is man that teaches him". The tongue of him they wickedly point to is notably foreign, while this is Arabic, pure and clear" The Bee XVI 103.

Imagine, one who never read the books he quoted in error accusing others who may have been experts in these writings of lack of knowlege! That is mischievous!!!

When accused of lacking inspiration because he had no signs and wonders following his teachings, he said:

"And the unbelievers say, "Why is not a sign sent down to him from his Lord?" But thou art truly a warner, and to every people (an ordinary) guide" The Thunder XIII 7.

When accused of trying to molest a relative's wife, (wife of Ummu Hani' binti Abu) he claimed that a flying horse transported him into the neighbor's premises by a miracle!!! I hope you don't need me to give you a reference for that. Google Mohammed's flying horse story.

HolyHolla: [s]


Very wrong concept of the Holy Spirit you have, sire.

First, you cannot drag down the attribute of the Holy Spirit of God to that of a mere angel. Some who even claim that He is the 'Force of God' do better than that. But He is a Living Spirit.

Secondly, I doubt if anyone will dispute that Angel Gabriel or Michael was created and if God has a spirit and it is created, then God was created.

Thirdly, you need to find out more about spiritology. Spirits of people do not exist apart, but along with their hosts.

Fouth is that if Archangel Gabriel or Michael is the spirit of God, whose spirit is Archangel Jubril... or Uriel or even the fallen Archangel Lucifer?

This must be your personal view, or limited to a few Muslims who are misunderstanders of Islam. I Googled Archangel Michael and this is what I have on him from Quranic writings:

Islamic view of angels
Angels (Arabic: ﻣﻼﺋﻜﺔ malāʾikah; singular: ﻣﻼﻙ or ﻣَﻠَﻚْ malāk) are heavenly beings mentioned many times in the Quran and hadith . Unlike humans or jinn, they have no free will and therefore can do only what
God orders them to do. An example of a task they carry out is testing individuals by granting them abundant wealth and curing their illness. Believing in angels is one of the six Articles of Faith in Islam. Just as humans are made of clay, and jinn are made of smokeless fire, angels are made of light.

How does Archangel Gabriel or Michael fit into a perspective of spirit of God here?

Fifth, angel are messengers of God, not at par with or existing within God, but outside of God with other creation. For further details on Islamic views of angels, Wikipedia has these, which I believe would surprise anyone reading your claim that Michael is God's spirit:

Characteristics of angels:

In Islam, the functions that the angels perform vary, one of the most prominent of these functionsis their function as messengers. The angel Jibraaiyl (Gabriel) is the most important (prominent) messenger angel, as in Islam, he delivers the message of God (Allah) to the Islamic prophets . Angels cannot be seen as they are heavenly beings but that can take on different forms, including human.[7] One well known example is when God sent the angel Jibreel (Gabriel) to Maryam (Mary) in the form of a man, as God says in the Quran:

Similarly, angels also came to ʾIbrāhīm (Abraham) in human form, and he was not aware that they were angels until they told him so. Lūṭ(Lot) also had angels come to him to warn him of the impending doom of his people. All angels praise and glorify God and they never become tired of doing this.
There are angels standing in rows, who never get tired or sit down, and others who bow or prostrate, and never raise their heads. Abu Dharr al-Ghifari is quoted as saying:

No angel is able to disobey God due to the way God created angels. For this reason, Islam does not teach that Iblīs or Shayṭan (the Devil or Satan ) was a fallen angel, rather he was one of the jinn.
The Quran also mentions that angels have qualities that may be typified by the word wings:
The preceding sentence does not imply that all angels have two to four wings. Most notably, archangels (namely Gabriel and Michael) are described as having thousands of wings.[citation needed]

However, according to hadith collected by Muhammad al-Bukhari, Muhammad said that Gabriel had 600 wings;

The angels also accompanied Muhammad up to Jannah (Heaven ) when he received commands from God. Instead of riding on an angel, Muhammad rode a creature called a Buraq whose stride spans from horizon to horizon.

Angels are not equal in status and consequently they have been delegated different tasks to perform. The names and roles of some angels have been mentioned to us:

The angels of the Seven Heavens.
Hafaza, (The Guardian Angel):
Kiraman Katibin (Honourable Recorders ),[15] two of whom are charged to every human being; one writes down good deeds and the another one writes down evil deeds. They are both described as 'Raqeebun 'Ateed' in the Qur'an.
Mu'aqqibat (The Protectors)[16] who keep people from death until its decreed time and who bring down blessings.
Jundullah, those who help Muhammad in the battlefield
The angels who violently pull out the souls of the wicked,[17]
Those who gently draw out the souls of the blessed,[18]
Those angels who distribute (provisions, rain, and other blessings) by (God's) Command.[19]
Those angels who drive the clouds.[20]
Hamalat al-'Arsh, those who carry the 'Arsh (Throne of God),[21] comparable to the Christian Seraph
Those that give the spirit to the foetus in the womb and are charged with four commands: to write down his provision, his life-span, his actions, and whether he will be wretched or happy.[22]
The Angel of the Mountains[23]
Munkar and Nakir, who question the dead in their graves.[16]
Darda'il (The Journeyers), who travel in the earth searching out assemblies where people remember God's name.[24]
The angels charged with each existent thing, maintaining order and warding off corruption. Their number is known only to God.[25]
There is the angel who is responsible for Jannah (Paradise). A weak hadeeth says his name is Ridwan so as far as we know, there is no name for sure that we know of.
Maalik is the chief of the angels who govern Jahannam (Hell)
Zabaniah are 19 angels who torment sinful personsin hell
These angels take no pity on punishing them as they do what the Lord has commanded them to precisely and perfectly. A verse stipulatesthis:
The following is a Quranic verse that mentions the meeting of an angel with Mary, mother of Jesus (ʿĪsā):
Muhammad, speaking of the magnitude of the angel Gabriel, has said that his wings spanned from the eastern to the western horizon.

Versesin the Quran that directly name angels

Template:Muslim beliefs
Gabriel (Jibreel) and Michael (Meekaal) are mentioned early on the Quran in sura Al-Baqarah:
Another angel, Maalik is defined in the Quran as a being who is the warden of Hell. However Maalik is not an evil angel, nor a fallen one , a notion Islam rejects, rather Maalik is merely doing what he is commanded to do by God. In Islam, Iblīs or Shayṭan (the Devil or Satan) is considered to be a jinn rather than a fallen angel, since he questioned God when He ordered the angels to prostrate themselves before Adam, an act that suggested he possessesfree will. An alternative view holds that rather than "defying" God, Iblis was acting in a manner predetermined by God.

Two other angels are also mentioned directly in the Quran: Haaroot and Maaroot (Harut and Marut):
Several angels such as Azrael, Israfil, Munkar and Nakir are not mentioned directly in the Quran but are explained further in the hadiths of Muhammad.[/s]

HolyHolla: I will still repeat your post:

"... in the first place who is the holy spirit in the QURAN?.....the holy spirit is ANGELGABRIEL
MY PROOF
He sends down the
Spirit from His command, upon
those of His servantsHe chooses,
in order to warn people of the
Day of Meeting.” (Ghafir: 15)..."

There is a difference between the Holy Spirit residing in someone ("strengthened WITH the Holy Spirit" as against the Holy Spirit speaking to someone. Even if all prophets were inspired, the Holy Spirit in Jesus is not in the same category.

And your reference has done nothing to prove your point.

malvisguy212: adam is the first man, that is how it soppose to be,and that how the begining shuld be,but the world is already populated when jesus was born YET he was miraculosly giving birth to,why God did not just allow a normal human being to give birth to jesus? It is because he want us to adopt the nature of Godliness in jesus christ.

Moreover adam fail the temptation of the devil but jesus dint.

HolyHolla: From all indications of his misquote of events in the Torah
and Talmund and Christian practice, it is obvious that he had
little knowlege of the Bible and had not read most of these
scripts, but only gathered information here and there from
Catholic preachers he encontered in his days. You may want
to research to find the influences of Monasticism as it was
practiced by Catholics, which is not a biblical but traditional
Catholic practice at that time, on him. That will enlighten us
on why he condemned practices such as celibacy, reclusion,
worship of angels and images and many others. They are
not biblical practices. Mohammed had no valid stance to
know which biblical provisions were true or false ince he was
not availed the opportunity to access Bible scripts, but only
depended on oral information and false practices of his time.
Mohammed himself testified that there were disagreements
among Christians over doctrinal practices of his days,
indicating that his references was based on the false
Christianity he encountered. But he never had the opportunity
to encounter true Christian practices and that is evident in
your reference; " 1:65 But sects from among themselves fell
into disagreement: then woe to the wrong-doers, from the
Penalty of a Grievous Day!" He lived among idol worshippers
and had influences only from Catholicism.

.

HolyHolla: Thanks for thinking for me, but 'No, thanks', I can think for myself. If I believe that Jesus is God only because He was of virgin birth, I would say so by myself. But as it is impossible for you to contradict the myriads of evidences supplied to support this from both Bible and Koran, you chose to think for me? Thank God, we live still in a society that largely allows freedom of thoughts, not a Takfiri controlled nation.

HolyHolla: Please feel free to Google it and discover. The beauty of the information available to all through the internet...

HolyHolla: 2. While you reject authenticity of the Bible as compiled
simply for the fact that Gnostics debate it, I believe you
should find also a way to delve into archeological
discoveries that validate most of the compilations. Even then,
none of the books from wwich I made references so far is
disputed. Have you ever wondered which biblical scriptures
Mohammed read from to coin his own religion? Have you
tried to find out, since Islam requires knowlege, which Bible
scripts Mohammed read and quoted from?

HolyHolla: 1. We really can't come to any agreement if you premise on the Holy Spirit being Angel Michael. That, I find preposterous (absurd). How can an angel possess any person sent by God? You need to study a little about angeology and demonology to find out more on their operations. Angel Michael is Angel Michael and not the Holy Spirit of God.
.

HolyHolla: I didn't concoct it. One of the most respected scholars in Islamic history wrote it. But I noticed that you adress only selected parts of my enquiries. Is it that the others are granted as true and accepted?

HolyHolla: Good, I never wrote any such thing. I proved that Jesus is God through His attributes and qualities.

Larow: . All what you muslems are good at is to take to the side of your blood sucking tout you regard as your founder! We have been taught by jesus to turn the other cheek but yours is still based on eye for eye, rape, destruction in the name of allah, suicide bombing with strong hopes of 7 virgin reward in heaven. Look here! If you like, join them to believe that fake prophet, you'll burn to ashes in hell. Nonsense!!!

HolyHolla: Born of a virgin 19:19-20
.

HolyHolla: The Arab prophet (El-Bukhari) testified for the perfection of Christ and His infallibility, saying: "Satan pokes with his finger the side of every human at birth, except Jesus, son of Mary; when he went to poke Him, he poked the curtain." No other person has ever claimed this level of perfection which is akin to divinity.

HolyHolla: .The Quran says these of Jesus: Born of a virgin 19:19-20,
21:91; strengthened with the Holy Spirit 2:87; given
revelation by the Holy Spirit and not just angelic beings
19:30; taken bodily into Heaven 3:55; received the true
Gospel from God 57:27; and asked all to obey him 43:63. If
as a true Muslim should, you believe the Bible as the Quran
says, you must also believe the surah that says, “… We
believe in that which is revealed to us and which was
revealed to you. Our God and your God is one. To Him we
surrender ourselves.”

HolyHolla: received the true
Gospel from God 57:27; and asked all to obey him. If
as a true Muslim should, you believe the Bible as the Quran
says, you must also believe the surah that says, “… We
believe in that which is revealed to us and which was
revealed to you. Our God and your God is one. To Him we
surrender ourselves.”

HolyHolla: 43:63
If
as a true Muslim should, you believe the Bible as the Quran
says, you must also believe the surah that says, “… We
believe in that which is revealed to us and which was
revealed to you. Our God and your God is one. To Him we
surrender ourselves

yungdan192: unless a person believes IN JESUS CHRIST AS THEIR LORD AND PERSONAL SAVIOUR,HE/She cannot make it to heaven

mustang44: You are the liar! HURRAY! This is 21st century, not 7th century arabia. islamic conquest is dead and gone to grass for good. ISIL in iraq are trying by all means to bring it back again but the french and the US army are given them the taste of their own medicine. NO TO ISLAMIC CALIPHATE!

mustang44: keep day dreaming and believing in the islanic lie that all the biblical prophets including Jesus were muslims. What a wishful thinking. Muhammad started islam as well as the one and only prophet of his religion islam. Who cares if paul started christianity.

yazach: Jazakumullahu Khaira fi duniya wali aakhira

Word of taught: If I do something wrong, don't blame my religion blame me because my religion(Al-Islam) is perfect but I am not Perfect.
what a wonderful expression

again: Jazakumullahu Khaira fi duniya wali aakhira

mustang44: Do you think your islam is better than other religions of the world? As a matter of fact, islam is not as good as judaism, christianity, bhudism, hinduism even paganism etc. All these religions i mentioned existed for many years before muhammad came with his own version of religion and named it islam. When muhammad stated hallucinating that the angel Gabriel appeared to him and started islam; muhammad was able to persuade only few people, mostly close family members. Muhammad cowardly ran to medina because of the meccans. Because muhammad new that he could not persuade people to join his new religion, muhammad decided to change tactics. Muhammad being a desperate man started forming fighters to unleash terror on the people that rejected him. Even the jews of medina rejected muhammad knowing that muhammad was fake and they paid with their lives. Muhammad babished the jewish tribe of banu qaynuqah, banu nadir and killed all the grown men of banu qurhayzah. From medina islamic conquest began starting with the people of mecca. Without islamic conquest, islam would have gone nowhere. People were forced to pay heavy taxes called jizyah. Muslims forced islam on people, if islam is a good religion people will flock to it. You keep attacking other religions without looking at the dark side your own. Learn to leave other religions alone and face your own.

HolyHolla: If we are saying, therefore, that Jesus is acclaimed as Creator by the quran, are we wrong in making such conclusions? If we are wrong, what is your explanations on my submissions of Jesus' ability to create?

HolyHolla: abdulsalam20, you need to realize that the crop of people engaged in discussions here are not riff-raffs and neither are they so degenerate that you will be in position to carelessly use foul words on them. Some are more like your superiors in every way and standard and you are only chanced to discuss with them because they chose to make NL a forum for sharing intelligent discourse. In real life, you may never have the chance to get near them for discussions, mind you.

No wonder people associate Islam with violence, uncouth words and barbarism.

While I believe that Abdulsalam20 is no longer worthy of any response from sensible intellectuals because of his foul language, which portrays Muslims as people without good manners and decency, I believe you, yazach still remains worthy of sensible response and further intelligent discourse.

You may want to check the various versions of translations of quran to find out that not all agree with chapter and verse divisions. That your quran's interpretation states something else in the verse quoted by another does not invalidate the other. We all realize that unlike the Bible which is generally similar in chapters and verses, divisions in qurans differ from interpreter to interpreter. For this reason, please cut us some slacks if we miquote verses and chapters, but still state what is somewhere else in the quran.

What I want you to do therefore, is either give us the correct chapter and verse where these quotes are in your own interpretation or in the alternative, tell us without doubt that what is quoted is not in the quran.

That established, I want you to ponder on these. Jesus was definitely acclaimed as creator in the quran. First, He is called the word of God. We all know that God created by His Word and the book of John begins by describing Jesus as this Word, by whom all things were created. Second, the quran established that Jesus made a bird from clay and made it to come alive. You will agree with me that only One who is God in nature can create like this, wouldn't you? No other person in Islamic history has ever been reported to be capable of this creative ability. Third, the quran, I believe, described the way by which God created human beings as making them as mould of clay and giving them life, which is the capability of the Creator only.

If we are saying, therefore, that Jesus is acclaimed as Creator by the quran, are we wrong in making such conclusions? If we are wrong, what is your explanations on my submissions of Jesus' ability to create?

Ovacoma: Jesus says 'swear not at all', Matthew 5:34. you are an antichrist!