₦airaland Forum

alexleo: The very day I start using my brain ... I ll slide into atheism or free thinking(God forbid).

[quote author=Area_boy]hmmmm.. a lot of ideas and misunderstanding flying around. the truth is, it is always important to understand the fundamentals of any theory before branding it "made up"

Op,
In simple words the big b@ng theory explains everything from approximately 13.7 billion years ago until now. Everything else is around the realm of speculation. But isn't that how science works? people come out with ideas and others prepare experiments to test out those ideas or observations to verify/discredit them. The crucial difference with scientific "guessing" and spiritual guessing is that the scientists acknowledge that it is merely a possibility and that a proper application of the scientific method is required to achieve certainty. Religion on the other hand tells us with certainty that their guess work is fact.

So they got the time from the big b@ng off by 80 million years. is that really a big mistake? Think about it; Add 80 million to 1 billion and you will get 1.08 billion. not much off here if you ask me.

it isn't fair to conclude that something is blatant nonsense when you really don't know the maths involved. If I ask you to derive the standard model equation and explain it, we'll be here until next year.

Dark energy on the other hand is very simple if you understand anything about gravity. Our sun orbits the milkyway at a speed of roughly 200km/s. The massive gravitational pull in the center of our galaxy (caused by the black hole there) pulls in everything towards it since gravity sucks. There must be an opposing force to prevent everything from crashing into that black hole and that thing is dark energy. No one knows what it is because it cannot be seen but it can certainly be measured and they are sure it is there. with that explanation you can clearly make sense of dark matter as well.

Don't let the name fool you, it is only a fancy name when they don't know what it full is. Bring two magnets together and watch them repel or attract themselves, can we see this force? No but we certainly can measure it.


To be honest, your religious side is acting up here. Cos you really do not know the ins and outs but you discredit. how different are you now from the church goers that tell you evolution is crap?[/quote]There are a lot of things to adress in your post but let me start with the bolded. This is the classical example of scientific assumption that my previous analogy showed. You just, like most scientists do, concluded that there must be a force. Why? Have you considered the possibility that is is something else? Maybe the black hole isn't all that black; maybe gravity at such levels dissipate; maybe the combined gravity of all objects orbiting the black hole are greater than that of the hole; maybe a lot of other factors. No. You don't consider those. You just, like our Adamu, said there must be a force and are now spending time and money trying to locate said force.

Another thing is your magnet analogy. Yes we can measure the forces of attraction and repel of magnets in our world and we can deduct, based on our own physical world with its specific characteristics, that there are forces acting on these objects. Problem starts when we try to measure the properties of objects in other worlds based on the traits and behaviours of objects in our world. Magnets that attract and repel each other in our world may not do so in another galaxy. Infact, we don't even know how a magnet will behave in our neighbouring solar systems. Heck! even here on earth, if you put your magnet in fire or oven, it will stop magnetizing.

Sometime you don't need to know the ins and out in order to realise that a lie has outlived its purpose. The difference between me and those that deny evolution is that I have seen, with my own eyes, evolution happening in bacteria and natural selection and adaptation changing the human, animal and plants population traits.

Christians admiting they don't really use their brains.

hehehe. Can't stop laughing. This is how it starts.

goats in government.

^^^ question jam answer.

Excellent write up.

wiegraf: The bolded is one of the reasons I state you aren't saying anything new, to me or most scientists/observers/whatever party. These are no secrets, it's how the scientific method works. It's how most scientists operate.



Whether I accept it or not actually matters little imo, as the possibility of BB being wrong is a fact, objectively so. Same applies to most physical theories. Only LALALALALA fanatics would say otherwise (and those types are usually religious in my experience, I wonder why?)

Anyways, this is all good and fine. Then again, is all this


simply rhetoric?


As for mainstream shoving it down people's throats, I'm not sure what you mean. It's the leading contender among a group of theories. That's why it's the one first introduced at say, school level, or to the general public. Considering constraints, in particular time, surely that's reasonable, no?

However, should you say pursue a career in physics, I'm sure you're well aware the other candidates will be made well known to you, yes? I'm also sure you're aware that these other frameworks are well researched by various schools, yes?

Oddly enough, ooman agrees with you....

Let me try and explain my stance on this theory, not what you think I said. Big Bang Theory is a theory (aka fabrication) that makes sense when used to explain certain observations but doesn't make sense when other factors are put into the equation. That is why my topic says "Doesn't Make Enough Sense".

All I can say is that the more you write, the more you align opinion to mine. Do you accept the theory as absolute truth? Apparently not. So you have your doubts. So do I.
Whether you accept it or not matters a lot in this discussion. You claim to accept its fallibility but attack me for stating same. This is just confusing from you because after many posts, I cannot with certainty say what your stance on this subject is.

wiegraf: The bolded, you do? Cool. Then I suggest you publish your results quickly, before anyone else takes all the glory; nobel prize, immortality, opportunities etc. As, the way I understand it, nobody knows what DM is. Again, that's one of the reasons it's called.... DARK.

If I didn't know you, I would say you are deliberately twisting my words.

wiegraf: That it exists is not in doubt, the evidence is there. What is in doubt is it's nature and, again, this is no secret. So when you say they refuse to admit "I don't know", you're clearly wrong.

Who knows, your universes could be the cause of the 'dark energy', that remains to be seen.

This is where I completely disagree. You should read what I said previously but let me make a discussion analogy here for better comprehension.

Masa: Who took my camera?
Adamu: Batuta did it.
Masa: Who is Batuta?
Adamu: I plan to find out.
Masa: how did you know he did it if you don't know who he is?
Adamu: It is clear that your camera was taken. It is also clear that a person took it. I have called this person Batuta. It is most likely not his real name but we will use it for now until we get more information. I will allocate resources and ask all my team to concentrate on looking for Batuta and leave no stone unturned in finding this thief.
Masa: OK. Thanks
Adamu: Don't mention it. It's what we researchers do.

Two days later

Masa: Guess what, I found my camera in a bag in the wardrobe.
Adamu: Oh! Ehm!
Masa: How is the search for Batuta going? Found him yet?
Adamu: Ehm! Ehm!
Masa: Anyway, thanks for your help. Bye.
Adamu: Shyte!

I hope you understand.

The conversation could have gone much simpler, like
Masa: Who took my camera?
Adamu: I don't know.

But Adamu has a problem in accepting his ignorance so he has to invent things to explain that which he knows nothing about.

That, my dear friend is the dark energy / dark matter theory.

Logicboy03:

Why? Isnt it clear by now? You are judged by your belief not the content of your post.

Doing otherwise would be unchristian.

If na me talk am, madam jesoul for don give me 6 months ban.

JeSoul: Lol. Stick around dude. What would a king's court be without a jester?

Many a true word is spoken in jest.

Those that can't handle it,... ban.

okpurukata: If you are not strong in faith, this section can derail you.

When a girl calls herself okpurukata, I can only imagine what she may look like.

JeSoul: ^I'm not in the business of explaining the obvious. If you don't like the way the section is moderated, you can leave. ^the fact that the word filter had to be bypassed to post a word not allowed on NL and secondly insulting words are against the rules.

You may be surprised what a little explanation may achieve sometimes.

You should have given the reason for closing it but I think the better option would have been to modify the title and let the thread be. But the way you put it, it looked like you had a problem with the topic instead of the title.

Hehe! I'm not leaving. You have to cast me out.

Jesoul, did that bomb blast affect your nose or what? What is this smell test nonsense about closing a thread just because it critisized your fairly tales? https://www.nairaland.com/1256276/religion-stup-d

If you are tired of moderating, please tell Seun and stop taking out your frustrations here.

cryptic: I already gave proofs...Didn't I?

No you didn't.
What you gave are proofs af what was observed. Not proof of big bang.

It's like if one discovers a mass grave in Basra, is that a proof of war crimes by the British? No. It is just a proof that there is a mass grave in Basra. Until you provide further proof, that's just it.

wiegraf: Erm, yes. And again, this is nothing new. Applies to just about every physical theory there is. General Relativity could be completely wrong. So could the Standard Model, etc etc. They all have their issues, no?




-No one is stopping you from coming up with your theory about flying animals, but you expect others to take you seriously when there is no evidence other than speculation? Especially if there are easier explanations available, or is that how Occam's razor works? Unless you can show how flying animals can exist then asking the questions italized is completely justified.

Also, are you implying science is not open minded? Can you appreciate just how unintuitive General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics are? Their implications put most religious fairy tales to shame, yet their well supported because the evidence points that way.

-Nothing was 'just concluded'. Dark matter has not been 'invented', its effects are observable. The model does not predict it, and that somehow makes it fail?

Supposing I had some powerful laser and calculated that if I aimed it across the ocean it would hit person B's apparatus all the way out there at xx time, with xx intensity etc. I go ahead and do it, but person B reports he does indeed see said laser, but my calculations were off. Does this now mean the laser didn't make the trip across the ocean? Not necessarily, it more likely just means my calculations were off. The cause of this miscalculation? I don't know. Some gravitational force, maybe even just a mirror placed along the way, I then set out to find what it is. An unknown agent or factor is involved somewhere, that is what Dark Matter is, simple.

And you do know DM affects GR's predictions as well, yes? In fact, it effects BB because it effects GR. So, should we also toss out GR as being completely wrong as well? Both Dark Matter and Dark Energy's effects have been noted in various scenarios, not all related to BB, I believe. (I'm no physicist though, so feel free to verify the details.)

And BB has made predictions that have been tested.




Again, nothing new.

Yes, they all show uncertainty, no exceptions. There are degrees. SM for instance, despite being built around chance, is the most accurate physical framework ever. But even it is riddled with issues and unknowns.

BB may not be the most accurate framework around. In fact, there's a chance it will join this long list of (sometimes even mainstream) superseded theories, but to dismiss it as useless is rather illogical.



As above.



I don't exactly have the time but I fail to see how you can say the bolded yet have a problem with expansion being used by BB. And who says BB, or something very similar, cannot have taken place in a multiverse? Are they mutually exclusive? Many expert multiverse proponents have no problems at all with the theories working together.

As for not crusading for any theory, nice to know imo, but you have mentioned the multiverse as being viable before. Quoting




On a somewhat related note, this seems to be related to your issues with the scientific method. My response on that thread still stands



Looking at the evidence, BB is a reasonable stance. Second opinions like multi-verses are also welcome as well (though, again, I fail to see how the 2 are mutually exclusive), etc.

After rereading your write-up, I think you and I actually agree on a number of things. The difference is the faith we put in certain "sciences". I am very skeptical by nature and need more solid proof in order to accept certain theories, whereas you readily accept the validity of any theory that have passed a set test.

You have however (and I commend you for that) accepted the possibilty that the BBT may be a load of tosh as I suspect. The problem is that the mainstream scientific community does not have this view. For them, (cue ooman and co) the BBT is 100% sure solid science not open to dispute. It happenned. Full stop. This is what I'm against. My quest is for the truth, as should be the quest of any self-respecting scientist.

Please don't lecture me on dark matter because I know exactly what dark matter is. It is the scientists' answer to religion's god. It is the excuse that makes them look intelligent where a simple "I don't know", even though truthful and honourable, would have made them seem ignorant.

wiegraf: What you were doing here is more or else what you accuse BB of doing. You've created other universes (instead of Dark Matter/Energy a la BB, and note, DM/DE likely have other observable effects outside of BB (will verify when less busy)) to explain away expansion despite the fact there's no evidence for their existence and expansion can be explained via other means. So, again, I fail to see what the problem is.

I need to answer this one separately because it is almost blasphemous to accuse me of using BB methods. I haven't created anything. I just said the idea made sense and explained why. The method I used is that of Sherlock Holmes. It is quite simple really and it goes thus: "When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth".

Ymodulus: nice observations i need a good proof to the fact that the cosmic radiation baackground residue is a remnant of the Big-Bang theory

Gbam!

Logicboy03:

LET US CHRISTIANS SERVER OUR WHITE JESUS IN PEACE.

Hehehe. The virgin god born of a virgin mom. And his dad is also a virgin. Hahaha. Some people need brain surgery.

This country is too funny.

maclatunji: Why must we call on any group not to commit a crime in Nigeria? Don't we have a government? If the government is failing, should we not ask that it performs its duty or resign?

Why are we Nigerians acting like toddlers who can hardly distinguish right from wrong and cannot grasp the concept of duty? When and how did we become such mediocres that we cannot maintain the internal security of our nation?

The current state of Nigeria and the reactions of most Nigerians is disgusting to say the least.

Since your brethren demanded and got a different set of rules than everybody else. SHARIA.
Your sharia does not respect the government nor our constitution.

Ask4bigneyo: Which of d god r u referring to.. God or god?

you forgot doG

Wait for Obadiah777.

musKeeto:

Mods, change banner for this section to 'Lose your faith in God and higher powers'

Lol, interesting thread...

Next time you are invited, tell them to come and see you in the SE if it was so important.

there is no god.

mazaje1: As long as people like Ihedinobi are the ones left to defend christanity and the christian god then more people will only become atheist. . .

Who else would defend them? The only thing they have now is silence... and JeSoul.