₦airaland Forum

Islam mandates forgiveness. Where did you get your "idea" that islam does not?

How about the Death penalty that Islam inflicts on Apostates?

If people are punished for not following the religion or for insulting it, Islam doesn't mandate forgiveness. It's totally illogical to claim otherwise.

I may not be able to prove that God does not exist but all logical evidence points to the fact that the God of the bible does not exist.

Where have I said anything about the god of the Bible existing?

No matter how you cut it, Logic,  history and evidence to find truth  other than on a self-defined, self-reliant and unquestionable revelation that only considers itself authoritarian is always a better way to go.
Simply put its just a belief, and beliefs are nothing but beliefs.

Logic's a better way to go but it's not always the only way.
Even in Science we have to rely on belief. Take Quantum Theory for example - it's totally illogical. It works but it shouldn't and we don't know why it works. We can only believe we know why it works!!

Then take reality itself. Logic flies totally out of the window when you realise that the only sure thing you can say is "I think therefore I am"!!!

Don't get me wrong. I am a big fan of logic. But unfortunately, it is not the be-all and end-all. If only it was.
And if you took everything down to that final fullstop, you'd find that all you really have (except for "I think, therefore I am" is belief. 

It is no wonder why you didnt get replies.When will you people learn,It is a religion of peace,and if someone wants to blow himself up then the religion has absolutely nothing to do with it.

When those people blow themselves and others up in the name of Islam it has everything to do with Islam.
Turning a blind eye and saying "It's not our problem" is why the rest of the world villifies the Islamic world.

Christianity is also meant to be a "religion of peace". Would you therefore say that the Crusaders weren't Christians and that the Crusades were nothing to do with Christianity?

Using your logic, you just have.

But where does the whole concept of a God come from? ORGANISED RELIGION!!!

Of course it doesn't. That's a totally illogical statement.
For there to be a concept of God, man had to have the idea of God before the religion could be created, right?

In all probability, the concept of God dates back to when our anscestors were living in caves. When a lightning bolt struck a branch and caused a fire, when a meteor flashed across the sky, they probably attributed it to a god.

Well, the burden is on those who claim he is. If there's no sufficient evidence then its only logical to conclude he doesnt exist.

There is no burden on anyone. The fact is that even the greatest minds that man-kind has ever produced could not prove or disprove the existence of God. It's a Yes/No answer that is entirely down to personal belief.

LMAO.
I'm not a Muslim. So therefore well over three quarters of your ranting is meaningless.

Can you point to a verse in the Qur'aan where it is stated that worship Allah only out of your freewill.

Again LMAO. The authors of the Qur'an were hardly going to allow that to happen were they? If they'd have allowed choice and not relied on fear and persuasion, Islam wouldn't have lasted a month.

But let me give you these words from an Islamic philosopher:

"O my Lord! if I worship Thee in fear of Hell, burn me in Hell; and if I worship Thee in hope of Paradise, exclude me from Paradise; but if I worship Thee for Thine own sake, withhold not Thine everlasting beauty!"
- Rabi'ah of Basra. 714AC - 801AC.

Mannah from Heaven is religion. A loving God who answers the prayers of all man-kind is religion. The Creation stories are religion.
All are created by man.

But if God created man, then there is that "touched by God" aspect that I mentioned. And one cannot just say that it is God's fault or God doesn't exist because a lot of what man creates causes misery, as that just opens up the argument about the concept of Freewill.


I don't disagree for one second that man has created different gods in his image. That is what religion is about.
But again, I say to you, it doesn't disprove the existence of God. A god of religion - yes, you have a very good argument. But a God who is an Ultimate Being? No.

Will I not seek the mercy of Allah, and hope in His reward? THose who do not are arrogant. If they are punished for their arrogance, it will not be unjust. It is because of their pride.

It is nothing to do with pride. In fact it is utterly the opposite. It's because Allah IS.
You're so shallow, you don't seem to understand that.

Here we go again:

while the best rewards are kept for me, starting right from the time I die.

Why do you need to be rewarded? What do you ever think you can do to make you worthy of earning Allah's reward? Sorry. But saying that you think you can ever be deserving of reward means that you are the one full of Pride.

Like I said, you're worshipping because you want something. You're worshipping because you're paid to worship. You're not worshipping for Allah's sake but for your own.
Sit down and think about why you worship Allah. If your answer contains the words "So I'm rewarded" you're not worshipping him at all.
It's no different from the master who thinks that his dog "loves" him because he feeds him a bone. Does the dog understand the concept of love? Or does he only lick his master's hand and give the impression of love in the hope of getting a full belly?

Through out history and in every religion the gods have always depended heavily on men to do everything for them.

No. Man depends on man. In the case of the books you're talking about, man wrote a book about religion and then said "This is God". God didn't write the book and give it to man to distribute, whatever fundamentalists may claim. God isn't an author, neither is he a promoter.

As for your statement that God is yet to do a thing? How so? I could counter and say that everything in existence is in some way created or touched by God - either good or bad.

I have made an ultimate choice energized by God's Spirit to walk in Love always.

Good luck in your quest but also realise that you can only ever try to walk in Love.

But of course he don't do this, you know why?, because HE don't EXIST!!

Just because organised religion has fallen prey to charlatans, bigots and liars does not mean that God does not exist.
The problem occurs when people see religion as the be-all and end-all. Both the fundamentalists and the atheists end up not seeing the wood for the trees.
You claim that God depends on "men of god" when it's actually the other way around - they depend on Him for their livelihoods and their wellbeing. God Himself depends on no-one.

The logic of your argument can only be directed at religion and therefore it's aimed at man. Not at a God who transcends religion.

Some evidence shows that early Christianity had no problem with astrology and if one takes the story of the Wise Men at the Nativity, it can only be looked at as Astrology - they followed the Star. Rather than a physical movement of an astral body, this was probably an astrological projection. Some would say otherwise, but the fact that astrology played such a big part in the lives of people back then cannot be overlooked.
Also, when one looks at Revelation, one can't help but notice that it's full of astral illusions.

The fact is, people back then treated Astrology as a science and it wasn't frowned upon as the mystical hocus-pocus that it is now. Christianity only distanced itself from Astrology once it was realised that it isn't the factual science it claimed to be. The Emporer Constantine seems to be the major figure in the demise of Astrology where it was connected to Christianity, although he did tie in some important dates to the equinoxes with the Christian calendar.

I accept my faith, and fate while I seek the mercy of Allah for my short comings. What are you doing about your own situation? Who are you going to run to for help, when there is no helper, but Allah on that day?

LOL. You don't accept your faith. You're a slave to it. Acceptance takes freewill.
Yet you don't have that feewill. You spend your whole life preparing for Death. Why?
So you can go to "Paradise". There is no freewill when there is something which forces you to worship.

You worship Allah so that He will reward you. That's not worshipping Allah for who He is. That's worshipping so you get paid or don't get punished - worshipping for yourself.

A lot of fundamentalist Christians do the same. They worship so that they go to Heaven and avoid Hell. Let me tell you what that's called. It's called "Service to Self". Some would call it Satanism.

Who will I run to for help? What will I do about my situation? Nothing. I worship Allah for who He is. Nothing else. The reward or the punishment means absolutely nothing. It's totally irrelevant.
And if He doesn't accept that, then great. If he does accept it, great. Either way it's His choice and not mine. But He gave me free-will and I intend to use it. Why don't you try exercising that gift for a change?

We can't rely on Scripture to discount Christ as being a creation.
John states that "In the beginning was the Word". It is widely accepted that Christ was the Word.
Therefore, Christ was there right at the beginning.

My advice is not to get too hung up about finding a logical explanation for the structure of the Trinity. Instead, look for the idea behind it.

You're assuming Jesus was created.
As a part of God one could argue that Jesus was there in the beginning and has always been there.

Sure, one could argue that the physical Jesus was only created 2000 odd years ago, but the spiritual Jesus is not constrained to such a time limit.

I'm not a Bible literalist nor a fundamentalist by the way. I'm merely giving you the line as it can be looked at.

As for the quotes you give? They're arguable. With the "Let this cup pass over me" statement, it could be looked at as talking to one's self. And who doesn't do that in times of strife? It's also possible that there was a degree of separation between the physical Jesus and the spiritual Jesus/Godhead. As I've said, these are just ways it can be looked at independently.

Regarding the statement that only God knows the end. Again we've got something that can be speculated on. He could have been saying "Yeah. God (and therefore I) know the end". Or again there could have been that degree of physical/spiritual separation.

My own personal take on it is that the latter is merely a throwaway statement made just to stress the power of God.

If they are the same then they should have equal knowledge?

Not necessarily. Take a look at the human brain. You have a right hemisphere and a left hemisphere. Both are in control of different things and the right isn't always aware of what the left's up to. Both make up the brain as a whole though and work together.
Or take a look at the sea and the sand. Apart, they are an expanse of water and a desert. Put them together though and you have a beach. It's not a case of equality. It's a case of complimenting and creating a whole.

The easiest way to look at the Trinity is to look at H2O.
It can be a liquid when it is water.
It can be a solid when it is ice.
It can be a vapour when it is steam.

All are the same thing though.

None is greater than the other although, all can move to each other's form. Water can become Ice, Ice can become Steam. They're all co-equal.

As for what the Trinity is? Think of it this way:
Without the Father, there would be no Son. Without the Son, there would be no Spirit. Without the Spirit, there would be no Father. There couldn't be as they're all the same thing.
The Father created the Son who shares the Spirit of the Father. They're interlinked and inseperable.

ARCHangel meaning head over the angels

An "Archangel" is still an angel wether he's head over others or not.
Gabriel was supposed to be an archangel but there's no doubt that he was also an angel.
Archangels are considered to be members of the second choir of angels. To be a member of the choir of angels you have to be an angel. Logic huh?

Unfortunately, JW's have some real weird ideas that aren't borne out by the scripture they claim to follow.

So unclothedness bothers you does it, olabawole?

Weren't the first people made naked? Wasn't it only because they ate from the Tree that unclothedness became something to be "ashamed" of?
Wasn't the naked body given by Allah? Is a human being born wearing the jilbab?

You wear stupid clothes because they're a throw-back to Islam's desert origins. The early Muslims had no choice, they had to cover arms and legs or the Sun would burn them to a crisp. They weren't Nigerians who could stand the Sun's rays, my friend. They were Arabs - covering themselves was protection.

And then we move onto the ridiculous wear that you force on women.
This was enforced purely so that women were hidden away from the prying eyes of other members of the tribe. By doing so, temptation to adulterise was removed and the harmony was maintained.
Ironic that women are forced to cover their heads and faces purely because Muslim men are so weak that they cannot keep their cocks in their pants if they see a woman's skin. Pathetic.

Blame it all on Allah though. He'd want you to dress like a desert nomad wouldn't he? And he needs your women to cover up their faces because he must have created them real ugly. Otherwise, what's the need? Unless you still follow your predecessors' urge to rape on sight.

You'd have me dress like a weak drone like yourself? Nah. I have a fashion request for you though. Something you'd probably look good in. It's called a "funeral shroud".

I condemn all act of violence against anyone, innocent. Or even guilty, long after the fact.

You are a total and utter liar. Tell me: Does Allah smile upon liars? I should imagine that you can find a way to twist Islam so that he does, yes?

You don't condemn violence unless it's against your filthy "religion". Other than that, any monstrous evil perpetrated in the name of Allah is fair game. Let's get one thing straight though - your religion isn't Islam. It's a perverted corruption of Islam which thrives on extremism and fundamentalism.

One only has to read through this forum and view your posts in this thread and the one regarding the young girl put to death by stoning to realise that you are a distasteful, lying hypocrite.

These peops pay taxes and they do the dirty work.
If UK deport all the illegal immigrants in their country, the economy would paralyse(thats OFFICIAL).
They shoulda let the Naija man go back to his job and continue paying his tax and NI contribution.

Illegal immigrants in the UK don't pay tax and they don't pay National Insurance so that rather screws your argument doesn't it?

The IRA is a recognised terrorist entity. How many bombings were carried out by the IRA in england - several of them.

You talk crap. The answer is "very, very few". It's also not a "terrorist organisation". It's disbanded as an armed organisation and through Sinn Fein has now become a part of mainstream politics.
Also, you forget, the IRA were operating in the UK, hitting UK targets. They weren't bombing innocent civilians in France, Germany, the USA or anywhere but the UK or on UK territory. Just like all the other terrorist organisations you mention, they were involved in civil war. Big, big difference.

Seriously. If you're going to use something in an argument, make sure you have at least some knowledge of what you're talking about.

hitler was no muslim but was the worst terrorist ever killing several millions, still unequalled, wanted the russians to work the factories, the americans to run the fields and americans he swore he'd use 4 manure. so stop the Muslim hate message folks

No. Hitler was a white man.
And what happened?
Other white men took him down. And until he was taken down, every German was a target.

Put the boot on the other foot. Will other Muslims take the extremists down?
Answer: No.


Stop living in cloud-cuckoo land. The fact is that Islamic extremists hate you and want you to either convert or die. The moderate Muslims are either too scared, too dumb, too lazy or just plain don't care, so they won't target the extremism in their religion or try to stamp it out. At the very least, they're guilty of complicity.

That's got utterly zero to do with a "hate message". It's just a plain fact. Eat it up.

For you lot to sit here and attack the religion of Islam is so myopic in reasoning and intelligence. The only reason why the Islamic ones are more prominent in the media is because they are the most successful ones at it.

Actually, they're probably the worst at terrorism. They're amateurs compared to the likes of the Western terrorist organisations.
But lets get one thing straight shall we? The IRA was a money organisation that didn't "terrorise England in the 90s". It was an organisation that was more akin to a proper army rather than some backstabbing, innocent killing Islamic group. If you knew anything, you'd know the IRA gave warning before attacking any civilian target so that it could be evacuated.

But who cares? The IRA doesn't exist as a terrorist force, so why compare them to the asshole Islamists? I'd also remind you that the other huge, massive difference is that Islamic terrorists strike innocent civilians away from their own countries - something that other terrorist organisations never (or very, very rarely) do.

Personally, I don't care about the other groups you're talking about. I only worry about people who are liable to harm me. The groups you mentioned are no danger to me or the ones I love. Nor to you. But if you live in the UK, it's the Islamic terrorists who are the ones who ARE likely to kill you. The attacks of 7/11 could just have likely killed me as they could anyone else.

So tell me it's wrong to attack a religion whose members are a threat to me even though I want nothing to do with them and I'll tell you to wake up and live in the real world.

They're not deranged - they're brainwashed.
And their number is growing, whilst all the while the so-called "moderate" Muslims sit on their asses and do nothing to stop their children turning to extremism. Then, when poor little Mohammed next door gets hit by an American bomb or bullet, these so-called moderates whine and whinge that the US and the West is evil, whilst all the while churning out more little extremist bastards. And if they're not killing anyone who isn't a Muslim, they then turn against each other and start murdering those from different sects within their own religion, just as they have done in Iraq. Mind you, they'll blame the non-Muslims for that and say "Well, if you hadn't released us from slavery, we wouldn't have been able to murder each other".

Islam has a cancer. And none of it's followers want to get it treated. In fact all they do is force someone else to be the doctor and then bitch and moan when they don't like the taste of the medicine.

Personally, I say screw the medicine. Unless Islam grows up, it's soon going to be time to put the patient out of it's (and ours) misery with a bullet to the back of the head.

Have you "studied properly" instead of swallowing everything ur equally deluded athiest brethren slap at you like a brainwashed drone?

Hmmm. That would be almost pertinent if I was actually an atheist.
But I'm not. I choose to be a Christian and I'm very comfortable with the faith.

Therefore your words are drivel.

I think we can all assume it was a whale or do you know of any other gianormous fishes that can contain a man for that amount of time.

Whale shark!!

12 meters long and 13 tons.

But anyway, just like a lot of the Old Testament, Jonah looks to be a copy of the older Jason and the Argonauts myth from Greece.

giving your knowledge of science and biology can you explain to us how jonah survived in the belly of a whale for 3 days?

You never heard of SCUBA? Start repenting Okija_juju.

By the way, the Bible says it was a fish. Not a whale.

Who am I to argue with someone who thinks he is wise by his own right?

I'm not claiming to be wise. All I'm saying is that there is more than one way to look at Christianity. If you just choose one way, then how can you claim any knowledge of the subject? If you study Science do you just look at Biology, ignore Physics and then say "I know everything about Science"?

Your choice.

Bastage is a christain because he just has just wants to believe in the supernatural. . . .he has discarded the old testament god as evil an tribal, but still believes in the new testament god(jesus)

No. I don't see it as supernatural. I see God as logical. Supernatural is a lazy argument put forward by shallow opponents. When people approach me with it, I tend to point them towards Quantum Mechanics and ask them wether or not that is "supernatural". After all, it's just theory and most of it is paradoxical - it shouldn't work, but it does!!!

Add to that the realisation that anyone with any depth to them would realise that the whole of our existence is "supernatural" and you can see why I laugh at that accusation.


I don't really care about the historical New Testament Jesus either. It's the message that intrigues me. I also like Buddhism and Hinduism but Christianity is the easiest for me to relate to.

So bad luck mazaje. You haven't managed to pigeon-hole me yet.

By the way, you say no god. But take it all the way down to the bottom and you're left with just one thing - You. Nothing else. The only thing you know for sure is "I think therefore I am". The only proveable "reality" is You. Then you have a choice. Did you create that You or did something else?

Christianity is highly based on Judaism, it only sets things in the right perspective. If it isn't then Chrisitanity can't be. Christianity is the fulfillment of the Jewish prophecies. If anythig Islam is the one that is loosely based on Judaism.

I've said it before and I'll say it again - Judaism's only purpose was to sell Christianity. Other than that, it has no relevence. Christianity is not a fulfillment of Jewish prophesy. The prophecies were merely used to give it justification and authority over it's new market.
Islam is most certainly not "loosely based". The characteristics of Allah and Yaweh are almost identical - tribal mountain storm gods - and the laws are corresponding and almost identical. Close your eyes and swap the Jewish god for the Arab one and it's hard to tell which is which.

Amazing how fundamentalist Christians claim kinship and cohabitation with the Judaic god when it's completely at odds with the New Testament deity.
But why take my word for it? Why not study properly and not just swallow everything thrown at you like a brainwashed drone?

Heh!!!

Simply because I choose to be.

The difference is that Islam is a tribalistic religion originally intended for a few desert dwelling nomads.
Christianity was aimed more at the urbanites and is therefore way more cosmopolitan.
Islam is based on the worst aspects of Judaism.
Christianity is very loosely based on Judaism.

So "experts", you can "go and more search". Whilst you're doing it I suggest you don't just hang around Islamic or Christian brain-washing websites. Try to get the real picture. Visit sites which deal with history, geography, sociology, psychology and politics as well as some that can look at religion with a non-biased viewpoint. When you can do that, maybe you'll be able to see the differences and similarities for yourself.

Something tells me you're already too far gone though.