₦airaland Forum

brabus:
I can see your angle. Except that I won't do the following (Pro or no pro):

1. Allow any airline to use me to test run a jumbo aircraft knowing their capacity. As in the case of Lekki gardens switching from condos to MTUs on a reclaimed land.

2. Sit down and assume all is well because I've met my part of the contract by paying up promptly. I still don't see how the money will translate into a good job if their are no check and balances. #common sense.

3. Insurance? I laugh in Swahili. I thank God for those subscribers that they've not occupied the building. Maybe they'll talking insurance in the heavens just as many who turn deaf ear to clear warnings given in the aviation industry.

4. Yea. I agree the subscriber should confirm that the company is registered but there's a lot more than registration. They need to double check.

5. Is there any harm in keeping tab on progresses for quality control and assurances? Maybe because a "Pro" and "Licensed" company is handling the job. We are as good as go to sleep. I believe this mentality led us here in the first place. All government agencies, the subscribers and even you and me, who are now making noise believed Lekki Gardens is licensed and as such do not need to be monitored to cut excesses.

My unprofessional view of this issue.

Brabus, I have seen you 'argue' over issues without knowing that you are digging a hole for yourself.

If a commercial airline use a 'test' aircraft for commercial flights, that airline will be out of business the following day. Every aircraft is certified airworthy but you don't know that! No passenger goes to ask for that certificate before boarding a flight.

The subscribers have no duty at Lekki Gardens work site. They are not employed to supervise the work. Moreover, they are NOT in a position to give instruction on that site. You have nothing to monitor. Actually, you interfering with the work may relieve Lekki Gardens of liability because Lekki Gardens can claim that they are building to your spec! Subscribers are not RESPONSIBLE for quality or schedule on the project. Depending on the structure of the agreement, subscribers can sue a developer for late delivery and ask for COMPENSATION.

Do you supervise Toyota when producing your car? Of course you don't! The agreement is for Toyota to supply you with a 'safe' car. If any car is found faulty, Toyota will recall such cars. Toyota will not blame you for buying a lemon!

I know that in Nigeria, one can get away with murder BUT we should be careful! MTN thought like that until the rule book was thrown at them. Two of their MD's have gone because of that.

Better be aware of the rules governing your profession/trade!

brabus:
What's the fact Baba?

Is it to buy a land? Get a professional architect? A structural engineer with COREN stamp and seal? Pay their bills? Get a builder? Pay his bill? And go and sit down while awaiting your keys?

The major fact is will the license of the architect bring back the dead? Will it bring back the collapsed building?

Are we saying Lekki Gardens didn't meet most of this conditions? Even when the Vice Chairman of the highest professional body (NIOB) in Nigeria confirmed his participation in the first 2 units. If the case is Lekki Gardens didn't meet the conditions or use orofessionals, why are we just talking about it now and not before or during the construction period before committing into the project?

Well, thanks tor making your points. I tend to see things differently.

Not sure if you have ever done an accident investigation or a Root Cause Analysis (RCA) before. If you have, you will realise that there is a process to be followed.

While Lekki Gardens is ultimately culpable, there are people who are the 'root cause' of the problem.

Someone did the design. Was he competent to do the design? Was the design approved? Was the design adequate?

Next will be the builder. Was the construction done according to the design? If the design was WRONG and the builder did his work as per the design then he is 'free'. But if you have a situation where the builder did not follow the design then the builder is in trouble. This is where the issue of use of correct materials, quantities etc come in

Next will be the person that supervised the construction (structural part). Is he competent enough to do the task? He actually is the most culpable!

Now did Lekki Gardens employ competent people at each stage of the work. If they did not then Lekki Garden is in soup. If they did then those employed are professionally negligent and they will have to face the consequences.

There is a reason why professionals take insurance in civilised countries. Let doctors working outside Nigeria tell you the cost associated with taking professional insurance. Unfortunately, people here dont KNOW what is required of them as professionals. Maybe it is partly because the mentality is that of 'quacks'.

All the subscribers of Lekki Gardens will be protected including those that have taken possession.

For your info, a house got burnt in Lekki. The developer advertised the material used in the construction as fire resistant. The owners made sure that government agency conducted a test and confirmed that the materials used are not fire resistant. The developer will soon be in court to explain why he sold an item under false pretense!

Professionals need top be more RESPONSIBLE before they land themselves in problem. If you call yourself an Engineer you better be sure that you know your roles and responsibilities and the liabilities that come with it!

brabus:
Oga Beulah09,

I beg to disagree with reasons on your last comment but I never get energy this morning. I'll give you my position shortly.

Good morning.

You are free to disagree BUT it will not change the fact!

Pick ANY architectural drawing or structural drawing and you will see a small print there showing that the Architect or Engineer is not LIABLE for projects not supervised by him. When you put your stamp or seal on a drawing, you are putting your professional reputation at risk! As an engineer, your license can be withdrawn and prevented from practising for some years. This is not limited to Nigeria. In most climes, there are things you cannot do except you have the appropriate certification/license/competency.

It should not be too difficult to make use of professionals.

brabus:
I took me a while to wrap my head around Skimanski's position on the subject. The client must be blamed.

I took me some time to understand his Hyundai vs Gwagon analogy.

I'm not going to take Hyundai vs Gwagon position. I'll like to compare apples with apple.
The interesting thing is that most people (subscriber now) don't take the things we painstakingly do here on this forum serious.

Daily updates of activities on construction site is one sure way to curb this type of menace. Not necessarily mean that there won't be issues but it means there are over 100 million people watching over our investment and many times (most people here will agree with me), it works. What you couldn't spot, there are thousand of people who will see them and raise alarm. Why is it different with Lekki Gardens.
Why the hell on earth will someone gamble with N25m without any form of protection or accountability. Not even updates.
I'm just talking sense now. Not the pro bullshit. Because if it is about pros, Lekki gardens have all it takes to get the best and deliver the best. 100% upfront payment from trusting clients can guarantee them that.

Now, talking Hyundai vs Hyundai. I've never seen anyone in the middle class who just wen to buy a car without conducting a DD on the model he likes.
Maybe some people will do so because they believed everything that the automaker promised them. Me think different.

I want to read consumer complaints, the recall rate, the common problems. I want to read everything and anything about the particular model before committing my money. I want to go for a test drive. Not because I don't trust the automaker but because I have my interest to protect.

Now, let's talk Pro!!!!!

Before you talk pro, did the consumers use a pro to conduct a silent investigation of the company, their records and capacity to deliver such project. The Lekki garden I knew do well in delivering terraces and condos, and not MTUs.

This is where the subscribers got it all wrong.

I rest here. Contrary view will be highly appreciated.

Again, this is an unprofessional way to think!

When you enter an airline, do you ask them for their maintenance records? Do you know whether the plane was maintained? If there is any mishap, do you blame the airline or the passengers?

Is Lekki Gardens a registered real estate company? Yes

Is Lekki Gardens licensed to do the business that they are doing? Yes

Did Lekki Gardens promised to deliver a safe structure at a stipulated price? Yes

Did the subscriber meet their financial obligations? Yes

Did Lekki deliver a Safe building? NO

So Lekki Gardens is to blame.

In terms of protecting yourself, there are insurance you take. Those that use mortgage to BUY may be in the best situation right now. Depending on the nature of the agreement, the mortgage institutions will go after Lekki Gardens.

The due dilligence a subscriber need is to confirm that Lekki Gardens is licensed to do the business they are licensed to do. It is the government that will determine is Lekki Gardens is able to the job it licensed it to do.

skimanski:
At least you people see it from where im coming from. I do not blame these subcribers for killing the over 30 people in the building. I just dont understand why the patronize firms with offers that are too good to be true. Naija People with Awoof!!

The Idea of Affordable housing is fantastic. Its something My team and I are working so hard to bring to the Populace. but not at he risk of the people that eventually subscribe for it. Because this is not a case of Lekki Garden working for the Middle Class people. Its a case of lekki Gardens Using the Middle Class Citizens to Archieve their Selfish Goals.

I am very sure that in the Future most of the Houses will be empty because the Value would have droped so badly, and owners will want to sell off but no buyer and renting will be like nothing to write home about.

It is not the fault of the subscribers who paid and expected quality service. This is like blaming someone for transacting business with you when you fail to deliver on promise. This is why people get away with illegality.

Lekki Gardens never said that they will build a structurally deficient building. It is a willing buyer, willing seller agreement. You can blame the subscribers IF they fail to meet their financial obligations.

The blame rest squarely with Lekki Gardens and the contractors/engineers. Also the government which have oversight/regulatory function also share in the blame.

Lesson for the builders/engineers is for them to be professional in the way they do things. If you are not a professional, get COMPETENT ones to help you. There is MORE to engineering than google and packaging. You dont become an engineer overnight.

There is a REASON why Structural drawings are STAMPED and SEALED. There is a reason why Architects and Engineers are expected to supervise building construction. It is because they are professionally accountable and liable!

Zinnyanon:
Na so @ Egunmogaji, This una thread is just for idle gossip, backlashing, If we put much time and energy to building ourselves more than we do trying to slash an image or bring someone down, The world will be a better place.

Really don't know this Lekki Gardens company but you have done enough advert for the young man,I looked at some of their works-they seem to have done much and grown so fast.
If he could do this much at his age -have a vision and work through it. I am seriously inspired ,I pray he gets through this and become better.
A pity people lost their lives, May their souls rest in peace.
He needs to work hard and get it right, will recommend him to my friends.
we need to encourage our people to do better.
You guys should draw up inspiration and change our country.

I also hope that you pray that those who were professionally negligent are seriously dealt with.

For change to happen, there must be CONSEQUENCES for actions.

Location and picture

brabus:
I think Maverrick is right on this. I spoke with a retired public servant (high profile) this morning and he told me Lekki Gardens can swim the murky water by piping low for now and offering 200k per person ( ) to their embassy here in Naija and that's it. The person in question is an authority in things like this. So, i believe him.
Has anything happened to SCOAN with the number of SA nationals lost in the collapse? No!

So if a kangaroo committee is setup, we know what to expect.




However, if men of integrity. People who can be bold to say it as it is, like this man who choose to ignore me, constitute the investigative panel. Then, Lekki Gardens is in for a serious trouble.

If you know how the business work, Lekki Gardens will have to die and resurrect as another company!

Firstly, the loss from the collapse building is enough to KILL the company!

Then I expect the government to go after them on their other projects/buildings. Additionally, no one will pay for their other buildings so you can imagine the effect on cashflow. In other climes, they will file for bankruptcy.

For the contractors/Engineers, the professional bodies will likely blacklist or withdraw their licenses.

I just hope builders here are learning!

abdulwastecx:
Wholesome analysis sir. It is clear that the customer ( home owner) have zero blame, since they pay for a service that was rendered by a supposed competent film. The blame should be on the developer.

It make business sense as clearly illustrated by you, and to think of it this way, less than 10 % of Nigeria population can even come up with a 25% for a dwelling accommodation.

It is sad that people who invest their hard earned money lost their investment to a dubious organization

If they have a sales agreement in place, Lekki Gardens will have to REFUND the money! It is Lekki Gardens and the CONTRACTORS that are the ultimate loser.

mavverick:
Thank you for answering my question.
Let me ask, are you a registered COREN engineer ? Do you do structural design work and produce the drawings such that a builder and I myself can understand, as I had to learn how to read plans when it got to one stage.

Would you also require a site visit before you do your structural design ?
Should Architect also be the one/with his cronies etc to do the mechanical design and also the electrical one ? Reason I ask is coz i remember this causing delays and my architect said that he was waiting on the electrical people to finish the electrical design ? Same with mechanical, but some aspects of it were changed during the course of construction.

The structural design must be approved by a civil/structural engineer with his seal and COREN stamp on it.

Electrical and mechanical designs are not required for small buildings BUT for large developments, they are suppose to be approved by COREN registered engineers with their respective seal and approval. Architects are not 'qualified' to APPROVE Structural, mechanical or electrical designs.

During CONSTRUCTION, you need those that did the design to SUPERVISE relevant aspect of the CONSTRUCTION. You will see a small print on your designs stating that the engineers (including architects) are not liable for designs not supervised by them.

mavverick:
Oga twinskenny

When you say contractor, do you mean LG as a company or the actual subcontractor that put up the building, the one that LG asked to build it ?
Make we bet am, nothing will happen to LG and in a few months time when the dust settles, they will start selling again. This is nija, you will just hear that the foreigners mostly Cotonou and Togo people have been settled.

I doubt that Lekki Garden will survive this. Firstly they will have to refund the buyers of those flats. There will likely be civil and criminal cases against them that may require them to pay huge damages.

skimanski:
Ahhh!!!! comeon you dont insult people nah! is that how you talk? If you like Cheap things, you buy nah. If you disagree with my comments,you just disagree and dont Insult.

China makes Phones that do not last the 5th Charging Circle, or that might burn your other appliances, so are you telling me the biggest problem to that is the Government control or the Subcribers? You buy a house for 25m. Thats not even up to the price of land in that area. but you want to use that money to own a complete house, whose Daft now? You can see the Writing on the wall yet you still push the botton and open the door. So whose Daft?

Please Carefully comment next time and dont insult people. I beg you. Lets be matured.

Skimanski, I am surprised by your position.

In CONTRACT, there is a wiling seller and willing buyer. Lekki Gardens covenanted to supply houses of certain quality at a certain price. The buyer was satisfied with the QUALITY and found the price attractive so an agreement was reached. The buyer fulfill his part of the CONTRACT. It is now left for Lekki Gardens to deliver the house of the specified quality.

Legally, the buyer has done NOTHING wrong! You can see that police is not looking for the subscribers. However, they are looking now for the DIRECTORS of Lekki Gardens. They have also arrested some of the contractors.

As a professional, you need to ensure that you demonstrate professionalism in ALL that you do. This may be the beginning of the end for Lekki Gardens. When the rule book is thrown at them, I doubt that they will survive.

If you handle big projects, you may have to take insurance for professional indemnity!

Uberness:
Doing a project in my hometown.
The drawing was first of all produced by an experienced consultant architect who advised that the foundation and decking stages be supervised by a structural engr. who is also an experienced consultant. I paid dearly for each of his site visits but not with pain.
He traced all the rods one by one with a stick like an village headmaster to make sure that all meets specification and standard and doesn't care about any delay his meticulousness will cause.
My builder dreaded any of his site visits because after he visits , there will be more rods to be changed, or included, or even redone which means builder will spend extra on iron bender as labor was contracted to Builder.
My instruction was that: the structural Engr. gives final go ahead before any concrete is poured during Foundation & Decking.
On my own side i was happy and didn't mind, i'm still in contact with the elder statesman for a job well done.

Of course many will call you STUPID then! Wondering why you are wasting money and not allow baba Iyabo the bricklayer who has built many buildings to just take charge! It is when things go wrong that you start to appreciate the money you spent in having a 'competent' person supervise the work.

Many are only concerned about the 'fineness' of the building but NOT on the structural integrity.

mavverick:
abdulwastecx

You always talk a lot of sense as usual.
How about cases whereby structural drawing done, calculations done, everything done but yet the executors on the ground decide to do something different to spite the owner etc.

Speaking from experience, I once had a situation where even with the plans/everything what was requested was not what was done, and in that situation, I invited my architect to site, when builder saw architect he started having cold feet and said that I wanted to shift him out of the project by calling Architect to inspect site.

What do you do in a situation like that ?

For a multi storey building, the requirement is for a structural engineer to supervise the construction (at least the structural aspect). That's why you have the fine print on your structural drawings exonerating the engineer from works not supervised by him. The Architects do the same thing!

IF no engineer was engaged to supervise the building then the client is liable.

Aventures:
Your last point here is what i really stressed in my post. Building collapse may be due to Natural disaster that is beyond engineering control, and as well as structural failure that may arise frombso many factors. I refused to put this blame on structural consultant because i have worked in one of the real estate development firm some years back, and i quit within six months because of my future career. Most of them don't have any engineering background and so they don't ha e any respect for engineering procedures and consultancy.

Which type of Natural Disaster? When there is a NATURAL DISASTER it will NOT be an ISOLATED case!

This is either a design issue or poor construction methods. Whatever it is, the engineer that designed/supervise the construction is liable. He has based on his professional judgement agree that the building is SAFE! Now that it is not SAFE he definitely has a case to answer.

brabus:
Question to ask your Structural Engineer?

What's the allowable bearing soil pressure?
What's the total live load?
What's the total dead load?
What's the assumed floor finishes load?
Columns, Brickwall, Beams, Roof materials
What's the assumed concentrated live loads?
What's the assumed distributed live loads?

This is where we get it all wrong. We do not have idea of what data our structural man used in computing the allowable imposed loads, yet we buy finishing materials based on our taste and not design requirement.

Next thing, you'll blame the builder. It's like blaming the Vulcaniser for overloading... how i fit talk am sef. Abeg use your church mind, decipher the thing jare.

This one no be packaging o! Just confront facts with figures.

Again, the client does NOT need to understand all this. The Structural engineer puts his SEAL and STAMP on the drawings and calculations. If he now supervises it and allow things that contravene the structural design he is held liable.

When things go wrong and the rule book is thrown at you, it is express road to jail!

brabus:
@ abdulwastecx, I just feel I should ask you this question. Who do you think is culpable in this issue?


I see a lot of people blame the builder, the engineer. I don't have anything against them. That's how much they understood about project management. They have little or no idea on how to handle complex structures. So it's fair to assume the builder is the man to blame just as the developer and Jack Baeur is blaming the engineer.
But the truth be told, MDUs/MTU projects is more than a one-man show or selling of spare parts. It's not a chicken coop project.

FYI, it's only the governor who approves construction of MTUs in Lagos state.

Your thought on this will be highly appreciated.

You better know the liability you carry as an engineer supervising a project. At the minimum, the license of the engineer supervising the project should be withdrawn.

Approval is conditional! Better read the fine prints.

The blame can go round.

A warning to those using and depending on 'QUACKS'. Many get deceived with presentation and packaging and ignore the most essential aspect of the building! STRUCTURES. You can get away with using quacks with bungalows BUT once you get to multistorey building, an understanding of geotechnics and structures are important.

The sad part is very few structural analysis or calculation is done in the design. People only copy what was done in one building and replicate somewhere else.

Hopefully, this is a wake up call to builders and clients alike. Once you go to multistorey building, get a competent person to handle your structures. Ask for the structural calculations. Ensure that the guy actually do the structural design and not just copy.

For the clients, if you are not buoyant enough, stay with a bungalow. Dont try to cut corners with a multistorey building!

Hopefully, we will start to go beyond the 'packaging' and insist on PROFESSIONAL work.

andi78:
TGIF...

Wichtech...technology that defies imitation

State the price

kayman77:
Standard plot of land measured 1,590sqm,fully fenced and gated with necessary titles is available for saLe @ very close to oluyole extension high school...asking 16m...whatsapp 07067980197

Which street? Which title? Any outstanding ground rent

EgunMogaji:
So today marks the end of filling the foundation on my main house. With a final push today it was done after 400 tonnes of laterite at a cost of N283,000 for laterite and N74,000 for the people that did the filling to a total of N357,000

Do I win the award of most laterite used in a foundation?

Oh the padlock chicken coop garage apartment also took an additional N84,000 for laterite and N24,000 for the people that did the filing. Total tonnage for that one was 120 tonnes.

So for my project 520 tonnes at a cost of N465,000

Don't buy a sloppy land and if you do for the love of God design a building that can be stepped. Don't be like EgunMogaji AdekeJeje Jabi Esu

That is the problem with designs without seeing the land and understanding the topography.

Actually, good architects love sloppy land because it allows them to play with a lot of things. If you now have a good structural engineer you are good to go.

The worst thing to do is to buy a sloppy land in a water logged area!

Arnoldfish:
Thank You Very much, So 3meters at the front can pass approval for The area? Thank God

You need to be sure oooo. Some areas have the FRONT setback as 6m.

twinskenny:
Depend on so many things sir. Number of speakers, point of controls, type of controller, location of project etc you can what's app me for more discussion thanks

Just give a price range with specs. You can choose any location you like.

Not sure why pricing is an issue with us

twinskenny:
will surely watch out for this

Na the one for madam's shopping be that ooo

smiley001:
Boss, is that your SUV infront of the Flat body trailer?

That is likely ONE of his MANY SUV's

Between, the man no send us anniversary cake oo

What is the estimated cost of this installation?

allCopacetic:
Yes, Vertical dolly.
No the horizontal isn't available sir.

C-Bus is a micro processor based building automation technology, so if you dont have a C-Bus wiring system, its pointless having a C-bus switch
the technology is used PRIMARILY in Australia, China and New Zealand, Currently available in Asia,Russia,South Africa (sparsely), the United Kingdom. Schneider discontinued sale in the U.S.
Nigeria? ...Maybe not for a while

Why you no get the horizontal na? Looks more beautiful when installed.

Yes the Neo C bus is available in Asia. Na the wireless I no like.

Thanks very much.

allCopacetic:
Schneider Neo ... in white
Forward thinking design for forward thinking people.Never fumble in the dark for the light switch, with modern mechanical switches like Schneider Electric's NEO feature LED locators. They give off a soft glow that lets you know where the switches are. aesthetically pleasing and functionally impressive

Good one. Those look like the vertical ones. Do you also stock the horizontal?

Thinking of the Neo C Bus series. Ever stock or install such? Not the wireless oooo

allCopacetic:
replied sir, thank you

Thanks. Should be getting some from you soon.

skimanski:
A drive around the estate show how majestic the building are. The environment forces you to do a good job.

The second house is beautiful

What is the plot size and floor area of the building?

How much for the carcass and full finish for this building?

What is the duration/timeline for completion?

allCopacetic:
We have the Vivace range, and the Neo (in white)
Distribution boards as well

Sent you a mail. Need the price for the Neo Series and the distribution board.