₦airaland Forum

@ m4malik

Of course not, because that's my own summation - viz, "There is nowhere that New Testament Christianity had a keeping of the Sabbath."

Forgive me my brother, but I am not so much interested in your summation as I am in what the bible says. Once again if you need biblical evidences to show that christians kept the seventh-day sabbath, I can show them to you.

God didn't have to wait until the 6th century for the age of the "beast" to begin (if there's anything like that),

It was never a question of God waitng. It so happened that certain signs concerning what Daniel mentioned in the book started to take shape around the time of Constantine. No where in history was there any previous attempt to regulate Sunday as a day of rest, except as recorded here in the anals of history:

"On the venerable day of the sun (Sunday) let the Magistrates and people residing in the cities rest, and let all workshops be closed, " Codex Justinianus lib. 3, tit 12,3

For political reasons Constantine struck a deal that would satisfy both christians and pagans. The pagans still had their Sunday, since that was their day used by them to honour the Sun God, and the christians fearing further persecution gradually kept both days, side by side, until the official establishment of the RCC in AD538, which further strengthened Sunday observance. This was the real and substantive commencment of the falling way mentoned by St. Paul.

and what you've inferred in the Constantine issue is merely human conjecture.

Do a simple google check and insert the phrase "edict of Milan" and you 'll see for sure whether or not its a human conjecture. History cannot lie. After Constantine defeated his rivals for power, and became the sole emperor, he regulated christianity as the religion of the empire.

There are men who have always sought to change set times and laws,

That may be true but it doesn't make the point about Constantine untrue. You may not see that event as important based on what direction you're viewing bible prophecy.

and Daniel 7 was not specifically in reference merely to Constantine in the 6th century, but rather an open prophetic declaration of the character of a declining age.

Of course Daniel wouldn't have known that Constantine would have been a part of the scheme you see. However, after history unfolds, and we begin to look back, its easier to put things into perspective. besides, i neve rsaid the 6th century, I said the 4th. The 6th century came into the picture when the Roman Catholic church was officially launched as having total control of the empire where being the official religion of Rome is concerned.

Before Constantine emerged, the apostles warned us that "the mystery of iniquity" (II Thes. 2:7) was already at work in their own day in the 1st century; and that there were already many antichrists influenced by the 'spirit of antichrist'

There were not many Anti-Christs, but rather there were different teachings that portrayed the "spirit of anti-christ" There ia a vast difference. What the prophet spoke about in chapter 7 had to do with a specific religious system that would become the Anti-Christ. Revelation 13 refers to the very same religious power as the beast. Both prophets spoke of clues and characteristics that would make it easy for God's people to identify it during the period that it would reign for.

which was already in the world back then in the 1st century (I John 2:18 & 4:3). Constantine was a late comer in the scheme of things in the 6th century and he had no such power to change the Word of God

Constantine is the least of the problem right now. He was just the fore-runner of things. I just happened to mention him, because he had a role to play in the establishment of Sunday worship.

Daniel 7, Revelation 13 both speak about a power that would attempt to change God's law and worship system. daniel 7 made it clear that four world kingdoms would rule, the last being Rome under which Christ was crucified. daniel went on to say that from the Roman kingdom would arise a power that would "speak great words against the Most High" and "wear out the saints for a time, times, and half a time, being 31/2 symbolic years. ( see Daniel 7:25)

Since a day represents a literal year then it logically means that this power would rule for 1260 years. Is it co-incidental that the RCC started ruling from AD538 and ended its rule temporarily in AD1798, when the French Revolution brought to an end all the schisms, aristocracy, and church curruption, and placing the pope under captivity where he died in exile? This is the deadly would mentioned in Revelation 13 that was given to the beast power.

This religious power in the form of the RCC is nothing more than the anti-Christ itself usurping the ministry and glory of Christ. This was known long ago by different reformers. Its nothng new.

It is this same religious power that has introduced pagan festivals, including Sunday, christmas, easter, to name a few, by simply baptising them in the name of christianity.

Its no wonder John says "come out of her my people, and be not partakers of her sins, "

God's holy day of rest is the sabbath, being Saturday. God hasn't changed and neither has His words. he still commands us to "remember the sabbath day to keep it holy, "

@ Drusilla

Bobby,

You've made some good points. I'd like to ask about this one.

OK

Rev 11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
Rev 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

There are some things you need to understand about the book of Revelation. Some of its contents are symbolic, and some are literal. In the case of the above two verses, there are indications within the verses that would suggest some form of symbolism or code that needs decoding. Before we continue you need to see that this 11th chapter is really a continuation of the 10th, as far as instructions are concerned that were given to the angel.

Bear in mind that the people who put the bible together sometimes separated verses into chapters and made it look like a brand new thought. So one has to read preceding verses to pick up on the context of what was being said before. Such is the case with chapter 10 and 11.

The question is who was it that got the measuring rod? It would have to be John (the church's representative) in this case, right? The objective pronoun me indicates that. The measuring mechanism is simply saying that God's church, the temple of God was in the process of being measured by a standard. This standard should be held by all of God's earthly representatives as far as guiding God's church on earth is concerned. The standards are the bible or word of God and His eternal law(10 commandments).

Verse 2 of the 11th chapter takes us to a very important piece of bible prophecy that will take some time to go into, but once again there are expressions used to indicate some degree of symbolism, that I need to point out to you. For example:

"But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles:" This expression now brings us to a very important truth about the purpose of the temple in heaven in which God dwells. The part about the outer court not being measured had to do with what was accomplished by Jesus when His blood was shed outside the temple walls when He died, hence the emphasis was now being placed on the work that He as our High priest was now doing in the heavenly temple or sanctuary.

"holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months" This expression indicates what other sections spoke about concerning the persecution of God's church during the dark ages for a literal period of 1260 years. This took place between AD538 to AD1798. (42 months in bible prophecy = 1260 days = 1260 literal years)

Trust me its very complicated stuff trying to analyze the book of Revelation, and I will not be able to explain everythingl in this section for reasons of brevity.

These scriptures indicate that a temple of God will be somewhere? What do you understand about this temple?

Because the bible uses the expression temple in different sections under different contexts, and bearing in mind what was said above, it can safely be said that this temple is not the same as the one mentioned in Revelation 21, which talks about that temple in which God dwells.

A case in point would be how the apostle Paul uses the word temple to mean an individual, or simply the corporate body of believers. That is why I am quick to suggest that people use the word in its liturgical context.

@ Darkchild

Can anyone one on this forum please explain in clear terms ' the trinity' to me?

I have not met any xtians who can explain it to me without getting confused themself along the way.

For starters, the word Trinity is not a biblical word, but is a word used to highlight the seperate members of the Deity or Godhead.

As to whether you agree to there being three seperate members within that Deity is another question. Was that too hard for you to understand?

@ m4malik

In other words. . . ?

There is nowhere that New Testament Christianity had a keeping of the Sabbath,

To the contrary, and in fact thats not what I said.

and the idea that Constantine created laws that forbad sabbath worship is unbiblical.

It is very much biblical, because it was prophesied in Daniel 7 that men would "think to change God's set times and laws" in reference to the Beast or Anti-Christ. Constantine was merely a pre-cursor to the beginning of the beast age which began in the 6th century, AD538 to be exact.

That would mean that whatever law(s) Constantine created superceded apostolic revelation such as we read of in the New Testament - which is not true.

No man-made law can never supercede God's laws which are eternal. Civil laws however problematic they might appear to be to God's people, mean nothing to us, who know otherwise.

When you carefully follow the collective testimony of Scripture, you can't miss the mind of God on the sabbath in regards to Christian worship - and that is, Christians are not under a Sabbath law.

To the contrary there is an abundance of scriptural evidence that point to the fact that God still expects His people to honour His commands, and not the commands of men.

You show me your evidences and I will be kind enough to show you mine.

@ donnie

Isn't this a contradiction? With one breath you say it is not possible to keep everyday Holy and with another, you say it is.

I am not sure if you understand what I am trying to say. I should have worded it more carefully. Ok, let me go again. There is a difference between keeping a day holy, and living holy lives everyday. You see God didn't command us to keep everyday holy, but He commanded us to live holy everyday. There is no getting around that point. Besides, God is no fool to be confusing people with vague rules and commands. He specifically commanded to keep the 7th day holy, and He qualified that command by spelling out how we should do it. He gave us 6 days in which to do all our work. On the 7th day He commanded us to rest.

As I was saying this sabbath rest command came from creation when it was institutionilised after creation ended, not from Moses in the wilderness.

Of course it is possible to keep everyday holy in all practicality. If it wasn't so, we would not be commanded to do so.

Since we are speaking about the seventh-day sabbath, that would be impossible. Generally we are commanded to live holy everyday, but that is quite a different matter from the commandment to keep holy a specific day that God had in mind. Please don't confuse the issues here.

Of course we need to keep the sabbath day Holy. But it's important we know what day that is and how to keep that day holy. It is the day of the Church. The day of salvation. This is the day of the rest in Christ.

Not just a rest in Christ, but a literal rest. Both objectives are achieved on the seventh-day sabbath. In fact the whole thing becomes more meaningful when we choose to obey God's word and voice. Besides, I agree we aught to know what day it is, and the best way to know is to consult the bible.

We must ensure that we are in that rest.

Couldn't agree with you more!!! 

We must believe the gospel and cease from our struggles, casting our burdens and cares upon him,  Letting Him work out his purpose and plan of salvation in our lives through that eternal life and the Holy Spirit which He gives freely to them that believe. For it is He who works in us both to will and to do of His good pleasure.

So true my friend.

This is the true rest.

Let us see what the scripture says.

Let me ask you something! Why do you keep Sunday? Was it based on a command from God, or was it based on a command fom men?

@ davidylan

@ bobbyaf

Read Rev 12.

The man child here refers to the "elect" of God,

This doesn't make sense at all. Lets put things in context with a few questions.

1. What does the word "woman" in Genesis 3:15 mean?

2. What does the seed(off spring) of the woman in Genesis 3:15 mean?

If you can asnwer those two questions then you'd begin to understand who is the "man child" and its relation to the woman in Revelation 12.

I believe you know about the Genesis 3:15 prophecy of the coming Messiah, so I won't deliberate too much on that. The woman no doubt represented both the literal Eve as well as the church, the latter through which that blessed seed was to come. So both literally, and prophetically, Christ or the Messiah would come through a woman, and through the figurative woman the church. The bible is replete with expressions depicting the church as a bride, or daughter of zion, etc.

It becomes quite obvious, that if Jesus is the seed that Genesis referred to prophetically, then the "man child" mentioned in Revelation 12, no doubt has to be Jesus who was born through the church(woman). If you examine carefully how John describes the events in that chapter, you'd be forced to conclude, that the symbolism behind the events were actually literal experiences that were fulfilled in the life and ministry of Jesus Christ. Besides, if we are going to accept that the Dragon in the same chapter symbolises Satan, then we'd have to view the context of the man child in a whole different context. On whose life did satan make an attempt? Wasn't it Christ? Didn't the Genesis prophecy tell us that the seed(followers) of Satan would bruise the heel of the seed(Jesus) of the woman, and that the seed of the woman would crush the serpent's head?

Revelation is simply saying that Jesus although He was crucified, circumvented Satan who thought that he had Jesus where he wanted him. Instead Jesus after the crucifixion is now in the presence of His Father sitting at His right hand. As a result Satan targeted the woman(church) during the dark ages for 1260 literal years based on the prophecy in that chapter, while leaving the remnant(last phase of the church) for the last days before Jesus returns.

the small remnant that would be caught up with God and to His throne just before the great tribulation.

There is no scripture that supports this belief. NONE!

Show me a scripture within context and I will concede!

@ TayoD

Bobbyaf,

Let me start by letting you understand that there are three groups of people on the earth today as recognised by the Bible. These are the Jews, the nations (or gentiles) and the church. You have to understand that not all scriptures you read relate only to the church. Some are refering to the nations or the Jews and when you apply the scripture that relates to the jews to the Church, you will be messing things up.

It doesn't matter that they are three different groups of people who exist on planet earth today, since the bottom line situation relates to the church. It won't be the nations that will be experiencing the tribulation. Its the church! As to how one sees the church is another matter, but if we are looking carefully at the bible's definition, then we cannot go wrong. Listen to how the apostle Peter defines the meaning of the church.

1 Peter 2:9
But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

In every dispensation there are only two sets of people as far as God is concerned. Those who hear the salvation message and respond to it, and those who don't. God doesn't care about who is who in the plan of salvation. Listen to what Jesus said about the gospel and who it is intended to reach.

Matthew 24:14
And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

The point is that everyone from different nations will be faced with the ultimate choice of accepting the plan of salvation, be they jews, gentiles, etc; since ultimately, these same people will form the church.

The scripture about God's elect that you are talking about actually relates more to the Jews right there.

The apostle Paul saw it differently. He saw the jews and gentiles making up the elect. See Romans 10 and 11 You cannot have two types of people being called the elect. When Jesus spoke those words in Matthew 24, He was not referring to the literal jews so much, but the spiritual Israelites, that would have comprised both sets of people being the Jews and gentiles who would have come to accept Him as Lord. Bear in mind that Paul was elected to preach the gospel to the gentiles, being a jew. Hence the church that Jesus comes for will comprise all races of people.

The jews are going to be God's people and His representative once the Church is in heaven. Why do you think the Bible says that temple sacrifices will resume at the tribulation period?

This doesn't make sense at all. This is purposeless! What would be the point for the Jews to resume sacrificial services as a measn of qualifying their purpose as God's people, when all those services once pointed to the supreme sacrifice of Jesus. Look how senseless the whoe thing looks. The church is in heaven, while the jews are down here making sacrifices. , what kind of God are you portraying?

And why will the Bible say that the man of sin will ascend into God's temple and call himself God?

Its one thing for the bible to say that, but its quite another matter to understand in context what the bible means. This passage must be seen in the context of what other scriptures have to say about the same matter. Revelation 13, and Daniel 7, all speak about the same matter from a prophetic view point. This subject matter requires deep contemplation and study, and should not be isolated with the use of one text.

This is because it is a new age in which God's temple will now be the one built up in Jeruslaem (remember that in this dispensation, christians are God's temple). And why would there be other blood sacrifices when it is the blood of Jesus that avails in this dispensation? Think on these things, and I'll begin to give you scriptures and talk to you more about dispensations within the Bible.

The only temple/Jerusalem that John sees coming is the one from heaven as mentioned in:
Revelation 21:1-2
1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2vI saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.

The temple that was destroyed in AD70 will never be rebuilt, if that is what people are waiting for.

As posted by TayoD

, Talking about the rapture, Drusilla, the one the Bible mentions "who now letteth" is the church, and until the church is taken out of the way, the man of sin can not be fully revealed.

I am sorry to disappoint you TayoD, the church must pass through the tribulation, but Jesus promises that it will prevail. Listen to what He said before He ascended to His Father:

Matthew 24:
21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again. 22 If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.

This tribulation that Jesus refers to here, will be the very last and worst, just before He comes to redeem His church. Because the tribulation would have been so severe, God is prepared to step in to prevent a total anhilation of His people.

There has never been a time in history where God's people never went through a persecution of sorts, but one thing I am certain of, is that, He has always been there for His people as promised. He's been there through the fire, and the deep waters.

Listen to what the book of revelation says about those who are in heaven:

Revelation 7:9
9 After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.

Now listen to this question:

Revelation 7:13-14
13 Then one of the elders asked me, "These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?"

14 I answered, "Sir, you know." And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

If you notice it implies that all who were in heaven seemed to have been through this great tribulation without exception.

Listen to Paul as he describes the state of affairs just before Jesus returns to rescue His redeemed:

2 Thes. 1:6-8
6 God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus."

This scripture strongly implies that God's people would be persecuted right up to the second coming of Jesus Christ, whose physical and literal appearing would put an end to the trouble itself.

At no time do any of these passages come close to suggesting that God's church must be put aside, or escape the tribulation.

Just a thought.