₦airaland Forum

raumdeuter:
Who told you America has stopped taking them since Trump?

Many people have been granted asylum even under Trump administration

how many last year, how many the previous years, we both do know how to count right?

raumdeuter:
A visa or residence card can be revoked at any time at the discretion of the authorities of the issuing country

Sweden can issue you a visa and revoke it the following day

on the justification of a generalizing executive order and not on individual merit right? Now define discrimination to me!

raumdeuter:
Asylum seekers has a right to be accepted or rejected. Nowhere does it say we will take everyone who apply

before they are rejected they have to be heard first! Now tell me, is that what is happening at the border currently?

raumdeuter:
America said bring your downtrodden and destitute Yes so they do not have to vet those destitutte again?

So if you say My house is open to the poor and hungry yoou dont have the right to vet if some people are taking advantage of the situation at the expense of genuine destitutes?

America has taken in downtrodden destitutes from Bosnia, Somalia, Sudan, SierraLeone Haiti Vietnam, Iraq and all over the world and they still continue to take as long as you follow the normal procedures

America has taken them i agree, until trump! Now that's my point

Anduku:
I don't even understand the point of your argument. If any law enforcement officer goes off to start doing things that are extra judicial, how is that the fault of the persons who enacted the laws?

for a president so opinionated and digitally vocal about everything, the silence of his on extra judicial interpretation of his executive order says what?

raumdeuter:
Immigration laws have been modified over time from 1790 till date especially in 1890

The 1891 Immigration act was signed by President Harrison a Republican

What spirit? Go and read about the Immigration act of 1891

you obviously have read it so what does it say?

Anduku:
There is no law in the US that says you should send your destitutes to them, This quote comes from Emma Lazarus’ poem, New Colossus, which she wrote for a fundraiser auction to raise money for the pedestal upon which the Statue of Liberty now sits and so they inscribed the poem there. Nations are ruled by laws and not the words of an individual's poem. Trump was elected to enforce America's laws, not Lazarus' poem

oh! I stand corrected then, so what laws if any ruled the entry of all those European migrants?

Anduku:
If American citizens were stopped from entering during Trump's ban on travel from countries with terrorism issues (not Muslim ban) then they were stopped illegally because Trump's order never included American citizens. The order is out there for anyone to read the contents thereof. If for whatever reason an American citizen was denied entry then such citizens should seek legal redress because the order clearly doesn't apply to them. As for the caravan, there is no law that obligates or makes it compulsory for any country to accept asylum seekers, it is solely at their own discretion. So when a caravan approaches a country's borders in such a manner as they did by storming the borders and even attacking law enforcement, then the country has the right to take whatever actions they deem necessary to maintain security at their borders

American citizens you quickly point out but what about valid American residents with valid visas and papers of residency? In your haste to absorb trump of any wrong doing you fail to recollect him condemning any act of unlawful denial of entry OE victimization done in the name of Hus executive order

On asylum seekers, America has an obligation to accept them, don't remember if and which law this is backed by but America does except if their asylum claim isn't valid and that is the point of screening but my point is what has changed in handling asylum hasn't been the law, it has policy that has changed

Anduku:
Times have changed, laws have changed and in these age it is a crime to cross any country's borders without following due process. Even before Trump came, it was so. As a matter of fact, it is so all over the world. Can you name just one country in the world where crossing the borders illegally is not a crime? Just one country!! Even Nigerians who have always complained about the porousness of our borders are now telling Americans not to protect their own border. Shocking!!! And BTW asylum seekers can only get asylum if granted by the country they seek to go to. The fact that you claim to be an asylum seeker does not confer on you the right to just cross into other countries illegally. They would be well within their rights to deport you if they don't see any merit in your asylum request

FYI Nigeria isn't America! We didn't ask the world to send us their lowly, downtrodden and destitute from the very start, America did and those canvassing for tougher border control are mostly descendants of those lowly, downtrodden and destitute who came into the US without hassles, I am not American so i couldn't care either way, NY grouse is with the hypocrisy of it all

raumdeuter:
Was there any law to stop border crossing 300yrs ago? Is there any such law now?

Under every recent American govt, there have always been laws to stop illegal border crossing

What changed? Times and laws changed

and if there has been that change in laws like you said, when was it? Who advocated for it? And what was the spirit behind the law? When you can answer all three succinctly you will already be confirming my claim if Republican hypocrisy

raumdeuter:
In the early times it was just people entering and exiting as they liked and the shipping manifest was the only thing they could point to

What brought us to shipping manifest was your claim that a white American can never deny his European ancestry because of shipping manifests
In the course of time many manifests have been lost or destroyed so Mr JohnSmith does not have any shiiping manifest linking him to Europe because it as destroyed

So he can claim to you that his ancestry was not European and anything you say tying him to Europe is just assumptions like you claimed about your own Nigerian ancestry

Mr john smith might not have any shipping manifest but with other records he can trace his ancestry in the US to a certain point to a man or woman and not a single generation before for which he has to look elsewhere in the world and based on his skin color and the name of his primary American ancestor Europe

Anduku:
You're the one wallowing in ignorance not me. Asylum seeking is not a crime but illegal immigration is a crime in every country in the world. Trump has never been against asylum seeking or immigration, he has been very clear that he is against ILLEGAL immigration. If you want to seek asylum in a country, you don't storm the country's borders in mob and throw stones at their border patrol, you follow the laid down procedures and do that legally.

oh he hasn't been? where? In your world if alternate truths? If so, why were official points of entry for presentation and application for asylum closed along the border during the arrival of the so called Honduran caravan? Why were legitimate american residents stopped at ports of entry and in some cases returned at a time during trumps Muslim ban?

raumdeuter:
So because America was not controlling their border 300yrs ago, they should not control it now when there are different times and challenges

300yrs ago anyone can trek from Sudan to Nigeria and no one will stop them, Maybe they should continue doing that today since it was done like that 300yrs ago

did America have clearly defined borders 300 years ago?

raumdeuter:
I notice like the typical liberal, you are already trying to get to insults when your logic cannot stand. No wonder you were dodgy about answering if that was how liberalism worked

Explain Why is a shipping manifest not a document?

A shipping manifest shows people who made a trip, And it shows people who landed and immigrated into a country

Many families traced their landing/immigration into America to shipping manifests which shows their ancestors names on the shipping manifests/documents

I have been to Plymouth MA where the earliest pilgrims landed and saw the list of those who first made the trip from Europe

Is a shipping manifest a passport to identify an immigrant? For all you know it could be an American returning back from Europe, I never said it wasn't a document, I said it wasn't an immigration document in totality i.e conferring and confirming previous and current nationality status but a record of who was where when and unless there is no traceable previous generation on American soil, only then can such person be called a migrant and i went on to state many other records that can be used to track migration in a genealogy over time until you arrive at the first migrant or did you miss that part?

raumdeuter:
It seems you don't understand what you are arguing for or against

The only reason you can no longer hold anyone as slaves is that it is now illegal, many years ago it was not illegal and nothing/no one can stop you

You cannot argue that since it was legal 200yrs ago, it should be legal today

If in 2200 it becomes illegal to kill animals to eat, you cannot be held to such standard retroactively

You can only live by the rules and standards of your time

now you fall into my trap, so is it now illegal to cross the border to seek immigration? What changed? The laws or the policies of the current government?

Anduku:
You are not making any sense, in fact, you are the one who is being willfully ignorant. If we are to follow this your irrational thinking then almost every country should leave their borders open for every tom, dick and harry since our ancestors all migrated to our present locations sometime in our history. Very illogical

dude wallow in your willful ignorance as i don't have to make sense to you! My argument is simple, border control is a given but in Americas case if it goes beyond stopping every and any cross border criminality then it violates the spirit of the founding of the US! Asylum seeking is and never was a crime and what you have today of people being prevented from presenting themselves at the border to seek asylum is plain old racism and hypocrisy

raumdeuter:
And those that didn't have official manifest or documentation means they never crossed the border or immigrated?

Official manifest wasn't documentation in the sense if immigration doofus are you really American? They were records of who was where when simple, as were marriage certificates, birth certificates, death certificates, property purchase receipts, court records, mailing addresses, census records, prison records, law enforcement records, military records, wage and salary records, banking records, tax records, church membership records, membership of social, cultural, scientific and what not groups so at one point or another, everyone not t slave was captured in a record or two as existent in the US and from there their descendants can trace their lineage back and even when their point of entry wasn't ascertained, the fact that they weren't kicked out goes to confirm my point in the General attitude towards immigration

raumdeuter:
Its false equivalence to try to draw a parallel between the world of today and the world over a 100yrs ago

200yrs ago you can move anywhere in the world you want, as long as you are strong enough to overpower the locals or work out an agreement with them you can stay

Today there are well-defined borders and rules governing immigration

You cannot use the laws/standards of today to judge a century ago and you cannot use the laws/standards of a century ago to judge today

Mr, understand a phrase before you brandish it as a paper shield! False equivalence? Don't make me laugh! The reason America was founded as a country was to create a safe haven and somewhere to belong to for those who for whatsoever reason were feeling oppressed! And that was set into the spirit of your statues! So Mr whattaboutism, let me play your game with you, isn't it false equivalence to say that i can not seize you and make you my slave since the British abolition of slavery is almost 180years old and the american 13th amendment over a 100years old?

raumdeuter:
"To the best of your knowledge"

A white American too will tell you to the best of his knowledge his ancestors never broke any rule

In 200yrs time maybe when eating meat is illegal you great grandchildren will deny that you ever tasted beef

Even today you can deny your forefathers were ever polygamous and never paid dowry(bought women) "To the best of your knowledge"

Like I said I know I dont live in Utopia, you can believe otherwise

on what i debate with you on, it isn't my best knowledge that is the evidence now is it? It is written documents vilifying immigration opponents like hannity, tommy lauhren e.t.c showing us their less than ideal immigrant ancestors and showing the stupidity of their bigotry because if same standards were applied to their ancestors then they wouldn't exist

raumdeuter:
I only say what I read because I was not there. This is like a white American being interviewed and asked if his ancestors came from EUrope and he insisted NO they were all from America they never migrated

I wasn't there true! But the official records are!

raumdeuter:
"To the best of your knowledge"

A white American too will tell you to the best of his knowledge his ancestors never broke any rule

In 200yrs time maybe when eating meat is illegal you great grandchildren will deny that you ever tasted beef

Even today you can deny your forefathers were ever polygamous and never paid dowry(bought women) "To the best of your knowledge"

Like I said I know I dont live in Utopia, you can believe otherwise

oh he will say that, but records will show they lied! Oh ship manifests and port records and all that useless paper stuff and for the record, my fore fathers were polygamous! Crucify me if i ever deny! see? Fact not speculation

raumdeuter:
You can deny all you can but those who are realistic and truthful wll tell you the world wasn't always like this and in the future, some practices that are okay today might even be illegal and outlawed in the next 100yrs

Yoruba people were said to have migrated from somewhere in the middle east, who were the immigration officers and what immigration papers did they fill out?

Old Oyo migrated from current Kebbi state to current site, who did they take I-94 from?

Biblical Abraham moved from Iraq to Israel, Did he do an adjustment of status?

but mehn! I am truthful to the best of my knowledge, or you would prefer a lie to comfort you? In this exchange, stick to facts, not speculation because "were said" isn't same as "were known'

raumdeuter:
Yes moral standard have changed. At a time it was perfectly okay to marry women under 18, perfectly okay to take slaves, perfectly okay to raid towns and take spoils

okay then tell me the standards as pertaining to immigration! And on the statue of liberty question, I also remember "give me your destitute"

raumdeuter:
So if something is acceptable 100yrs ago, It should be acceptable now?

have the moral standards changed? Pray tell me again the texts written at or associated with the statue of liberty, esp that part about giving me your downtrodden!

raumdeuter:
As was the case in medieval times all over the world where only the strong survived

Most people of African descent did. Many of our ancestors took slaves, did human sacrifices, killed twins, ransacked other villages to take spoils of war

Most people who survived till today, their ancestors did things that if we use the moral compass of today to judge were horrible human right abuses and war crimes

Unlike you I dont believe I live in Utopia, I know and realize I live in a real world where nothing is perfect

My dear, mine didn't, can you prove for a fact that they did? See the part where speculation comes in?

But fact is, if you are not native American and not slave descended, then the requirements for you and/or your ancestors gaining entry to the US were laxer or less stricter than today for non Caucasian migrants and that's not speculation!

Martinez19:
A lot are still arguing for borders both in the UK and America. In both cases, they are liberals, especially young liberals. Their reasons usually are "let them in and give them a better life," "it's unfair to shut our doors to desperate people that need help" etc.

but isn't that the whole concept of asylum and/or a chance at a new and better life which the ancestors of the same conservatives benefited from? na wa oh! Can hypocrisy be more blatant? How i wish native Americans were making the laws and manning the ports of entry in the past four centuries, America will definitely not have these many gullible Republicans

raumdeuter:
Your ancestors probably killed twins or did human sacrifice or invaded other peoples land

SO you today have no right to talk about people killing twins, people getting killed for human sacrifice or invasion of other peoples land

Are we speculating here? I wasn't

itzMizELo:
Lol...

omote, there's a space for you and the numero uno position in my heart oh!

Martinez19:
I am sorry for arguing with you, don't kill my brain cells?

I could go savage on you but eh! Cheers! Happy new year!

Martinez19:
This irrationality is quite astonishing. How does past mode of immigration many hundred years ago apply to now? Does the past invasion of ancient europeans on American soil justify illegal immigration today? So Americans should leave their borders open because of what their ancestors did?

because if you aren't native American then you aren't aboriginal to the land and at some point you or your ancestor was a fucking immigrant who emigrated with laxer or no rules so where is your moral justification to talk about legal or illegal and yes the justification is being championed by Americans of European descent supporting the republicans so if race truly wasn't a factor in their opposition then the rational standards that applied to their ancestors should apply to other asylum seekers today if not for their blatant hypocrisy! So yes it totally justifies it

Rep. Rashida Tlaib was sworn into office using Thomas Jefferson’s Quran, and Trump’s conservative base fell into a stupidity black hole about how the constitution only allowed oath taking to be done using the holy bible

Someone, please read us the first amendment again!

Martinez19:
Legal or illegal immigrants? Legal or illegal immigration?

It seems that when liberals want to defend open border policies and paint it in a good light, they purposely fail to make a distinction between legal and illegal immigration and legal and illegal immigrants by using the words "immigrants" and "immigration." When they do this, they list the good works of legal immigrants and subtly give the credit to both legal and illegal immigrants.

Cc. Auduku, budaatum, itchie, Temple1288, raumdeuter

and pray tell from whose perspective the hundreds of years of European migration to the Americas was legal? The native American's? Oga go and take a back seat and join the list of the willfully ignorant i have put in their place!