₦airaland Forum

honesttalk21:
In the 2000 years hasn't there been different views as to whether others and particularly Jesus and the holy spirit should be worshipped beside or alongside God?

Was this not a cause of disagreement between Arius, a presbyter from Bishop Alexander of Alexandria?

Was the view of Arius not supported by the Eusebius of Nicomedia and Eusebius of Caesarea while Athanasius, a deacon under Alexander supported the bishop.

The rejection of a trinity or worshipping another along with God was well presented in the revelation of the Quran.

Do followers of Judaism agree with worshipping another along with God?

Don't pretend you don't understand. God Almighty "of Israel" is NOT the type that would do nothing in such a situation. He would do something. Something that would clearly show where He stands. And He has!
What He did is, exponentially grow the church for 2000 years as His worshippers, under His guidance, also worshipped His Son!

AntiChristian:
There are many of such gods in history if you look into the gods of India and Rome! And i wonder why the racial discrimination! God of Israel! God of Chosen! God of Adeboye! God of my pastor! Abraham didn't worship such God!

God won't be God if He does nothing! The definition of God in Islam is the Cherisher and Sustainer of everything! Do you even have any verse for this your thought process? Like those who didn't accept Jesus in the NT God just killed them like John the Baptist was beheaded or like Jesus was Crucified?

There are many gods people worship. Christianity is the only religion you'd be worshipping Almighty God "of Israel" and simultaneously worshipping a once human as His son.
So we agree, God has done nothing but grow the church for 2000 years as His worshippers, under His guidance, also worshipped His Son!

I understood the context! Was Jesus created just before Abraham and after Noah and Adam? And why does God have two different genealogies? Those were from the question asked earlier on this!

I don't understand your obsession with this at all. He was addressing children of Abraham, why would He be talking of Adam??!
Lord Jesus was never created. He's always been part of God

You are just avoiding the question!
How did you embrace Christianity? If the New Testament is not needed why did the Church father selected the books for it out of many books available then? How did the early Christians of the first three centuries know Jesus without the NT?
I remember Gideons Bible shared to us back then, a copy of the New Testament! Where did Christ ever told anyone to receive him if not Paul?

A rather dumb question. How did early Christians who had no NT adopt Christianity? Yet they were the most fervent Christians. You don't acquire Christianity from a book. A person says a few words to you, then the Spirit goes to work in you. It is the Spirit that does it NOT any book

MaxInDHouse:
Thanks for your time Sir! Proverbs 17:14

You too my good buddy, you too

honesttalk21:
Allah allows people to persist in beliefs such as polytheism and the worship of the Trinity due to the fundamental principle of human free will and the nature of divine testing in this world.

In the Qur'an, Allah gives humans the freedom to choose their beliefs and actions, as this life is a test for each soul. Allah does not force guidance upon people but sends prophets and revelations to guide humanity, leaving them to make their own choices. As explained in Surah Al-Baqarah (2:256), "There is no compulsion in religion. Truth stands clear from error." This emphasizes that while the truth is clear, people have the free will to either accept or reject it.

Allah is patient and merciful, allowing people time to seek the truth and repent, as evidenced in Quran 16:61, where Allah says if He were to punish people immediately for their sins, no one would remain on earth.

At the same time, this world is not the final judgment; it is a place where people are given the opportunity to choose between truth and falsehood. The full accounting of people's beliefs and actions will occur in the Hereafter, as stated in the Qur'an: "Truly God curses the disbelievers and prepares for them a blazing flame.

This reflects Allah's wisdom in allowing people time and opportunities to turn back to the truth, but it also establishes that accountability will ultimately come in the Hereafter for those who persist in disbelief despite the clear signs and guidance from Allah.

The Quran which was revealed about 600 years after Yeshua clearly states there is no trinity or partner with the sole God and discourages belief in the trinity.

That's NOT the nature of God Almighty as presented in the OT.
If you pray to Him directly and continually ask for His guidance but your worship is simultaneously wrongfully directed to another as part of Him but who is neither part of Him nor worthy of worship, God Almighty as presented in OT would NOT do nothing for 2000 years!

honesttalk21:
Oh I see. I haven't been following you enough to see that in any case you presented four options.

You also believe that Christ was crucified?

I imagine you do and will like you to clarify if was Christ the Messiah, the son of God or the son of the father that was crucified?

Your question is unclear

Petalss:
Apologies if my question was unclear, but do you base your knowledge on the Bible or the Church?

My belief is based on a combination of things that together result in KNOWING

AntiChristian:
I don't think i need to mention the past posts... And i have been very honest here! Whatever we do Allah responds as He wills. This is not about you making sense out out it! Your sense and all human's senses are limited! You can't think for God! Even if they worshipped Baal, that doesn't mean God will kill them all. I gave you an example before which you skipped. About 70% of the world now are non-Christians. What will God do to them according to your acclaimed modus operandi for Him?

This is what I mean by dishonesty and insincerity. Someone NOT talking from the heart as a human being. I answered this question b4. Maybe u missed it.
No other religion in the history of the world has a man been worshipped as Son of or part of God of Israel. Other religions worship/worshipped other gods! I ask you again, what would God be if He does nothing for 2000 years, when you pray to Him directly and continually ask for His guidance but your worship is simultaneously wrongfully directed to another as part of Him but who is neither part of Him nor worthy of worship?? Answer that as an HONEST HUMAN BEING!

If this was true then there would be no need for two different genealogy for Jesus in Matthew and Luke! And again if he was before Abraham what about before Adam? He wasn't created yet!

The New Testament provides two accounts of the genealogy of Jesus, one in the Gospel of Matthew and another in the Gospel of Luke. Matthew starts with Abraham and works forwards, while Luke works back in time from Jesus to Adam. The two genealogies differ in an important way: Matthew follows the line of David's son Solomon, while Luke follows the line of Nathan, another son of David. Matthew emphasizes Jesus' royal lineage, tracing his ancestry through David back to Abraham, while Luke emphasizes his common humanity by going all the way back to Adam.
He should have used Adam not Abraham as Abraham was not the first man on earth!

So a part of God becomes fully human and became part of the genealogy of man from Adam? lol!

They can't bring about any conclusion of their own! Whoever the emperor supports wins! The fact that there was even controversy on the nature of Jesus, Basic tenets of the Christian faith and Trinity shows that they were unfounded!

The Bible as you have it today are interpreted by Trinitarians so they poke it in almost everywhere! Jesus was worshipped was used but in the old testament they would write Joseph's brothers bowed and put their heads on the ground to Joseph!

This your idea that God would correct erroneous people is wrong! There are Billions of erroneous people that will die in error and enter hell!

Here's the full quote below. Read it carefully

52 At this they exclaimed, “Now we know that you are demon-possessed! Abraham died and so did the prophets, yet you say that whoever obeys your word will never taste death. 53 Are you greater than our father Abraham? He died, and so did the prophets. Who do you think you are?”

54 Jesus replied, “If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me. 55 Though you do not know him, I know him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and obey his word. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.”

57 “You are not yet fifty years old,” they said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”

58 “Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!” 59 At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.

I asked one other question you skipped earlier!

If the earliest Christians within the first two centuries after Jesus did not need a New Testament to qualify their faith, why do modern Christians have such a need? If they did not sanction or consider any other writing beside the Old Testament to be scripture, then isn’t it a digression from the ‘true faith‘ of the earliest believers to incorporate something new as scripture? The first New Testament was codified and canonized by the heretic Marcion who believed that the Jewish YHWH was not the true God, the first time the largest Christian Church sanctioned a New Testament was during the Synod of Hippo in 393 CE, some 360+ years after Jesus.

Christians do NOT need the NT at all. Christianity is about following a Person NOT some book or rules. You receive Christ in your heart and you're marked as belonging to Him!

honesttalk21:
You are not certain which is correct of the options you present?

What do you mean? Haven't I always said Christ is God, the Son of God?

MaxInDHouse:
That's the worldly thinking not that of God he who will be recognized by God must live his life in harmony with what God said not just reading or studying it:

These words that I am commanding you today must be on your heart, and you must inculcate them in your sons and speak of them when you sit in your house and when you walk on the road and when you lie down and when you get up. Tie them as a reminder on your hand, and they must be like a headband on your forehead. Write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates. Deuteronomy 6:6-9

No wonder the greatest commandment says:

"You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind and with your whole strength" Mark 12:30

So my friend it's the world that recognizes those people if they're unable to do God's will then they are nothing before my God:

‘This people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far removed from me. It is in vain that they keep worshipping me, for they teach commands of men as doctrines.’” Matthew 15:8-9

Once again, if you are unwilling to accept what "scholar" means in English language then invent your own language and define it as you wish. You have been fully advised as to what it means in English language.

AntiChristian:
There's nothing like Jewish God when God created Adam! Even Noah, Moses and Abraham doesn't know any Jewish God? When was the Jewish God created? Who amongst them worshipped Jesus as part of God? It is clear you'll cut out this part and respond to whatever you can! The core truth is that there was no trinity worship in the OT! Even in the first, second and third century till the Nicene, there was a debate on it. The Nicene creed ratified the worship of the trinity which was non-existent in the Bible.

Mention any part of your posts I have not responded to so far. You are the one not being honest enough to admit certain things make no sense.
Of course by "Jewish God" I mean God in that period and the attributes assigned to Him in that period. Try to be honest, with those attributes what do you think would happen if a group of people went into his temple and started worshipping Baal as Him and Son of Him?? Do you think they would grow and grow for 100 years talkless of 2000. And if they did, what does that say of Him? And is that possible considering His modus operanda? Try to answer HONESTLY from the heart, NOT talk non sequitur as usual (no offense).

The core message here is that Jesus was never worshipped by Adam, Noah, Moses, Abraham, Joseph, Jonah etc! How many thousands of years was that?

Jesus was part of the one God they worshipped -"Before Abraham, I am"

Jesus is simply human! A deficient human at that. Just as my mum and dad would protect me from all evil when I was a baby, so also Joseph and Mary did to Jesus while he was a baby! They carried him and ran away!

He craved for food when hungry, wept when sad and slept when tired! All these are human attributes! He even cursed and abused people when necessary as human as he is!

All these are in your Bible!

Anyways! I think you're enlightened enough!

Lastly how's God conceived in a human womb and being nurtured by such womb? How is God passing through a human vagina causing child bearing pains to God's mother Mary?

Even in Mark 3:21, Jesus's family were calling him out of his mind! Would they call God mad?

Of course Jesus was fully human. He is part of God who for a short period took up human nature and went through the entire human experience.

Look, it would have been much easier for the Bishops at Nicaea to conclude there was only one expression of God and Jesus was NOT part of it. But it is hard to read the Bible in totality and believe the Bible is true and still come to that conclusion. They prayed to God Almighty to guide their deliberations and every Christian after them have been praying and calling on same God since then. Do you honestly think if they were wrong He wouldn't have somehow set them right, considering His antecedents? Please honestly answer from the heart, no non-answer answers as usual.

No time.
There's that pill you take instead. I forget the name

How can it be a sin?

Re: Iwillbeback, you get mine free too

Iwillbeback:
what do you think ??

You're the OP and you haven't told us what YOU think

Link to the story or wedonbilivit

Link or wedonbilivit

So you posted a bunch of Bible verses, what's the point?

Petalss:
Please answer the questions properly.
1. (a) same (b) distinct entities.
2. (a) co-equal and co-eternal (b) different statuses
3. (a) single will (b) separate wills
4. (a) dependent on another (b) independently of one another

You've answered No 3. Single will but separate wills in special period

I've answered all.
No 2 is A. 1 and 4 are both.
The sunlight is also the sun though separate. Without it there is no sun. Without the light that makes it here the sun does not exist to us

honesttalk21:
Please tell me as you are clairvoyant

One of 4 things: 1) It is true 2) You are not interested in human worship 3) You can't 4) You no longer exist

Petalss:
Everyone is familiar with the concept of the Trinity, which describes three persons existing as one God.
However, what I want you to clarify regarding your understanding of the Trinity is whether these three persons are considered
1. The same or distinct entities.
2. Are they co-equal and co-eternal, or do they have different statuses?
3. Do they share a single will, or do they operate with separate wills?
4. Additionally, can one person of the Trinity be dependent on another, or do they exist independently of one another?

Petalss:
Can you please answer the 1 - 4 for clarity.

1) Is the light that we call "sun" the sun? (The light that traveled from the sun to hit our eyes?)
2) They are.
3) One will, except the special period when one was both man and God
4) They are both.

But none of these minutae really matter as we can never be sure and there is no human equivalent.
What we can be sure of is that they are all worthy of worship and worshiping one is like worshipping the other

MaxInDHouse:
I'm not disputing what people meant by Bible scholars but i am talking about what the owner of the Bible said regarding Bible scholars.
For instance first century Jewish community doesn't recognize Jesus and his disciples as scholars of the scriptures that's why they don't relate with whatever is written in the New Testament as those they regarded back then don't recognize Jesus' disciples as anything:

Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus. Acts 4:13

So my friend i'm not disputing what you think i only want to help you know that there is a big difference between what the world recognize and what God recognize!

It has nothing to do with what I think or the world. It has to do with LANGUAGE. A Shakespeare scholar would be someone who devotes his time studying Shakespeare plays in-dept and possibly did his PhD on them. That he can neither act nor direct a Shakespeare play has no bearing on it.

Petalss:
Everyone is familiar with the concept of the Trinity, which describes three persons existing as one God.
However, what I want you to clarify regarding your understanding of the Trinity is whether these three persons are considered
1. The same or distinct entities.
2. Are they co-equal and co-eternal, or do they have different statuses?
3. Do they share a single will, or do they operate with separate wills?
4. Additionally, can one person of the Trinity be dependent on another, or do they exist independently of one another?

There is really no human or worldly equivalent but I gave you an anology - if you were able to send your thoughts to perform errands, they'd still be you. Another is your mind mind, body, and spirit - they all work together to be you, yet they're all independently you also. Hence you can talk to yourself and give yourself advice - meaning your true nature is more than one person and you can actually refer to yourself as "we"

MaxInDHouse:
Earning a living out of it when God's only begotten Son ordered his own disciples not to monetize the work shey?
Ọmọ continue with your mindset at least you now know what real Bible scholars need to achieve before you can look up to them for understanding of the Bible.
Jesus said by their FRUITS you will know them {Matthew 7:16-18} you ignored that claiming they are Bible scholars, Jesus said only those doing the will of his father you don't care all you want to hear is that the world recognized them as Bible scholars even though they are not performing as Jesus said.
It's OK jàre you don't have any problem!

You have to invent your own language.
In English language, regardless of whether they follow it or not, someone who does the following is a Bible scholar:
Devotes himself to in-depth study of the Bible (often attempting to interpret the text in its original historical context), memorizes and meditates on it, does research and reads books on it, possibly went to school for, and very likely makes a living from it teaching and writing (mainly because they're left with no time to do anything else).

honesttalk21:
It is your perogative when and how you stop it.

And if you don't stop it, it's because...

MaxInDHouse:
This is what God's word said about a real Bible scholar:
Happy is the man who does not walk according to the advice of the wicked And does not stand on the path of sinners And does not sit in the seat of scoffers. But his delight is in the law of Jehovah, And he reads His law in an undertone day and night. He will be like a tree planted by streams of water, A tree that produces fruit in its season, The foliage of which does not wither. And everything he does will succeed. The wicked are not like that; They are like the chaff that the wind blows away. That is why the wicked will not remain standing in the judgment; Nor will sinners remain standing in the assembly of the righteous. For Jehovah is aware of the way of the righteous, But the way of the wicked will perish. Psalms 1:1-6

The highlighted in blue is what you need to pay more attention to, it say the scholar will not sit with scoffers and his delight is in God's laws which he reads in an undertone day and night he will produce fruit at the right season and whatever he does will succeed.
That's why i asked you if these so called Bible scholars are doing God's will because Jesus said that's the only reason why God will give anyone everlasting blessings {Matthew 7:21-23} note that whoever is not doing God's will definitely doesn't understand the scriptures because nobody wants to loose in whatever he does.
So what is God's will?
Anyone can pick up the Bible and start reading but knowing God's will is not just reading the Bible to make claims for others to notice you rather you must assemble with God's people and join them in doing what God requires.
In the Bible book of Isaiah 2:2-4; Micah 4:1-3 we read:

In the final part of the days, The mountain of the house of Jehovah Will become firmly established above the top of the mountains, And it will be raised up above the hills, And to it all the nations will stream. And many peoples will go and say: “Come, let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah, To the house of the God of Jacob. He will instruct us about his ways, And we will walk in his paths.” For law will go out of Zion, And the word of Jehovah out of Jerusalem. He will render judgment among the nations And set matters straight respecting many peoples. They will beat their swords into plowshares And their spears into pruning shears. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, Nor will they learn war anymore.

The highlighted in green is what no human can successfully achieve without the ACCURATE KNOWLEDGE of God's word because the Bible reveals that it's what they found in the scriptures that helped this group to form one big and happy global family of peace loving worshipers which Jesus earnestly prayed for {John 17:22} so the question again are these people unitedly doing what God promised that His true worshipers will achieve in the last days?

All this na wash. A Bible scholar is one who devotes himself to study of the Bible as a vocation

AntiChristian:
People have worshipped other Gods in the old testament and what happened to them?

In the Old Testament, people who didn't follow God suffered one or more of the following fate:
1- God will cause them to be murdered and massacred, and they will flee in all directions.
2- People will beget children but will not be able to enjoy them because they will be sent into slavery.
3- People's children shall be given to other people and the parents will wish they could have them back but they wont.
4- Cannibalism! (Deuteronomy 28:53)
5- God will send diseases to the people!
6- You will get married, and your wife will sleep with other men.

God is interested in human affairs but that would not make Him become a man and enter into His creation!
Even if you claim you are a Christian then i should ask you why God allowed about 70% of the world population to be Non-Christians?

Other religions were NOT worshipping someone else as Jewish God of OT and saying whoever else they were worshipping was His son or part of Him.

You can't say GOD OF OT exists and is interested in human affairs and answers prayers and at same time say Lord Jesus is NOT worthy of worship AS HIM OR PART OF HIM!!! If after 2000 years He hasn't stopped it, it's either he's NOT interested in human worship and affairs or He doesn't exist or no longer exists or exists but is powerless to stop it!
The most reasonable answer is that he's truly worthy of worship as him or part of him

honesttalk21:
The issue is the way you look at what you make a problem.

In the first place are you differentiating God at the time of the old testament, from the new testament and presently? Or are you driving at a non existence of God? May God forbid.

Do you think Allah that God created is without purpose and limit of existence? If God had no purpose for his creation why then did he send guidance and enable provision?

God is one and requires no partner nor does he need to conceive. Would he not have clearly stated this?

Perhaps you need to understand what the Jews mean by God as father and what God means by begetting in his reference to Israel.

The concept of God in Jewish theology as father carries deep significance and symbolism. The term father is used to describe God's nurturing, protective, and caring nature towards his people. It represents a loving and compassionate relationship between God and his followers, much like the relationship between a parent and child but it's not exactly as this.

The time for existence is at God's leave but mankind is often anxious.

All this na wash. I'm not differentiating anything.
Simple: if someone is being wrongly worshipped as you or part of you, you'd stop it. The only reasons you won't stop it is 1) he's really part of you and you’re ok with it OR 2) you don't care OR 3) You are powerless to stop it

MaxInDHouse:
Will you like to know what the Bible says about real scholars of the scriptures or you want to continue with what people think?

It's an open, unrestricted, anonymous forum

AntiChristian:
It's okay for you select whatever part of my response you wish to respond to!
God would never stop it. That's why he sent revelation for us to follow! Whoever follows the instructions will be in Paradise and whoever disobeys will be in hell!

My own understanding of God is that His dimension is far above this world!

Allah! La ilaha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He), the Ever Living, the One Who sustains and protects all that exists. Neither slumber, nor sleep overtake Him. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on earth. Who is he that can intercede with Him except with His Permission? He knows what happens to them (His creatures) in this world, and what will happen to them in the Hereafter . And they will never compass anything of His Knowledge except that which He wills. His Kursi (footstool) extends over the heavens and the earth, and He feels no fatigue in guarding and preserving them. And He is the Most High, the Most Great. [This Verse 2:255 is called Ayat-ul-Kursi.]

If God's Footstool could extend over the heavens and the Earth, then how great will the throne be! Then how great will the One above the throne be! Subhanallah!

My friend it's either God of the OT is interested in human affairs and worship or he is not. If he is, and he is not powerless, he won't let another be wrongfully worshipped as him.or part of him for 2000 years and do nothing

MaxInDHouse:
First of all from your own point of view what quantifies someone to be a Scholar of the Scriptures?

Someone went to school for it, spends most of their time on it, and makes their living from it

AntiChristian:
They may be wiser than you not me! And your claim that they spent their life studying the Bible is erroneous (I don't want to use false)! How old was the Bible then at Nicene? It was a political debate which was ratified by Emperor Constantine according to his whims!

If the earliest Christians within the first two centuries after Jesus did not need a New Testament to qualify their faith, why do modern Christians have such a need? If they did not sanction or consider any other writing beside the Old Testament to be scripture, then isn’t it a digression from the ‘true faith‘ of the earliest believers to incorporate something new as scripture? The first New Testament was codified and canonized by the heretic Marcion who believed that the Jewish YHWH was not the true God, the first time the largest Christian Church sanctioned a New Testament was during the Synod of Hippo in 393 CE, some 360+ years after Jesus.

Paul didn't meet Jesus in real time so this is out of it.

The writer of Hebrew is unknown or at best attributed to Paul who never met Jesus!

  He did not worship Jesus according to the context of that verse! He was surprised to see him! 

  Someone calling another by such name does not translates to Jesus! Muhammad (salallahu alayhi wasalam) was called by a few of Allah's name yet he is a man appointed by Allah as a Messenger and never god!

There's no capital in Greek that the New Testament was written in. "Anyone appointed by god can be a lord of Glory!"

  No Capital "L" in Greek!

He was asked of the hour yet he does not know it. And many times he did prayed to another God! I have never seen a God praying to another God except in the Bible!

God will fill the disbelievers to hell! Hell needs crowd as well as Paradise! Even all humans ever created can fit into hell!

Was Jesus not born of a woman? How was he excluded?

It is funny you can't see the obvious contradiction in what you're saying
You can't say GOD OF OT exists and is interested in human affairs and answers prayers and at same time say Lord Jesus is NOT worthy of worship AS HIM OR PART OF HIM!!! If after 2000 years He hasn't stopped it, it's either he's NOT interested in human worship and affairs or He doesn't exist or no longer exists or exists but is powerless!
Also God could come to earth for ANY reason, any reason at all.

MaxInDHouse:
Have any of these men been able to do the will of God? Matthew 7:21-23
NO!
So what makes you think they understood the Bible's message?
God's will is what matters not reading the Bible alone or studying it {2Timothy 3:7} to you these people are Bible scholars but they don't know God's will which disqualifies them from being exemplary teachers of God's word.

What's all this will this and will that. Seems you have forgotten what the discussion is about.
You wrote : "the understanding of Bible scholars many centuries ago shouldn't determine what we believe today because we have now discovered they are wrong with most of their conclusions!"

I simply pointed out to you that it is most scholars of TODAY who say the Bible says the universe was created 6000 years ago, and I gave you some of their names