₦airaland Forum

Petalss:
Everything you're saying feels crammed together, making it hard to follow. I'm having trouble understanding your point, and it's starting to overwhelm me.

Very simple: you can't believe God of OT is interested in human affairs and worship and someone else is being wrongly worshipped as him or part of him and he hasn't done anything about it for 2000 years. It's either he's not interested, no longer exists, or exists but is powerless

Petalss:
Could you explain your understanding of the Trinity so I can identify where my confusion might be occurring?

Three persons of one God that are all fully God

Petalss:
It's essential to take a clear stance: things can either be different or the same. Indecision will only lead to confusion and ambiguity. Choose a side and commit to it instead of saying not that different.

It's not only essential, it is much easier. But it's NOT indecision, it is a matter of being TRUTHFUL and stating how things REALLY are instead of going for simplicity and expediency. Jesus Christ is God, the Son of God but NOT God the Father. It complicates things but it is the TRUTH!

Petalss:
I mentioned earlier.
The Council of Nicaea sought to establish a unified Christian doctrine, promote theological clarity, and support the political and social stability of the Roman Empire.

Please can you explain what early Christians who did not believe Jesus is God stood to gain from their disbelief?

You still haven't said what they stood to gain except headache {"they go explain tire"}.
The ones who did not believe stood to gain simplicity and lack of conplication. Nothing to explain.
Simple: there is only one God and no son of a carpenter is worthy of worship as Him!

honesttalk21:
Allah's creation and sustenance of the world includes a profound awareness of the feelings and needs of His creation.

Psalms 139:1-4 show God is aware of every aspect of human life, including unspoken needs and Isaiah 65:24 shows God knows what people need before they articulate it through prayer or requests, but He is also responsive to those needs even before they
are expressed. Why then is there a need for God to become like his creation man to experience what man feels?

Jesus's statement "Before Abraham, I am" should not be interpreted as a claim to divinity, but rather as a declaration of his eternal existence and connection to God as one who sincerely follows and obeys the almighty and is assured of everlasting good from God

Funny you can't see the obvious contradiction in what you're saying
You can't say GOD OF OT exists and is interested in human affairs and answers prayers and at same time say Lord Jesus is NOT worthy of worship AS HIM OR PART OF HIM!!! If after 2000 years He hasn't stopped it, it's either he's NOT interested in human worship and affairs or He doesn't exist or no longer exists or exists but is powerless!
Also God could come to earth for ANY reason NOT just for first hand knowledge.

Petalss:
Throughout history, God has seemingly allowed many belief systems to grow and thrive, including those outside monotheism (e.g., ancient polytheistic religions). The persistence or spread of a belief system does not necessarily reflect divine endorsement or rejection but might align with historical, cultural, and social factors.

Please explain why God allows other religions to exist. According to your reasoning, does that imply that their God is watching over them as well?
1. Christianity – 2.38 billion (31.2% of the global population) over 2000 years
2. Islam – 1.91 billion (24.1%) Over 1400 years
3. Secular/Non-religious/Agnostic/Atheist – 1.19 billion (15.6%)
4. Hinduism – 1.16 billion (15%) 1500 BCE or earlier.
5. Buddhism – 506 million (6.6%) Circa 6th century BCE.
6. Chinese traditional religion – 394 million (5%)
7. Ethnic religions (including African traditional religions) – 300 million (4%)
8. Sikhism – 26 million (0.3%)
9. Judaism – 14.7 million (0.2%)
10. Other religions (e.g., Baháʼí, Jainism, Shinto) – 58 million (0.8%)

If we set aside population as a factor, the Gods of Hinduism are the most effective in maintaining its religion.

Other religions are NOT praying to God of OT and saying whoever else they're praying to is His son or part of Him.
You can't say GOD OF OT exists and is interested in human affairs and answers prayers and at same time say Lord Jesus is NOT worthy of worship AS HIM OR PART OF HIM!!! If after 2000 years He hasn't stopped it, it's either he's NOT interested in human worship and affairs or He doesn't exist or no longer exists or exists but is powerless!

Petalss:
Sincerity does not equate correctness. Throughout church history, sincere leaders have held differing beliefs about core doctrines, indicating that sincere prayer does not guarantee correct understanding.

There is nothing in church history that comes close to the enormity of this. This was about the very nature of God and how to worship him. And there has been a test of time - 2000 years!

Petalss:
The bolded statement speaks volumes on its own. It’s essential to look beyond the status of the 33-year-old son of a carpenter; there is no evidence suggesting that he is equated with God in any definitive way. Were the early Christians truly followers of Christ if they did not accept his divinity? What would they gain by rejecting the notion of Jesus as God during that period?

Moreover, it is crucial to consider the motivations behind the decisions made at the Council of Nicaea. The bishops who participated had much to gain from their formulation of the doctrine of the Trinity. Their actions were not merely about faith but were also influenced by the political and social dynamics of the time. This raises questions about the authenticity of their beliefs and the implications of their theological inventions.

*You didn't say what the Bishops had to gain

You can't believe what you wrote above and at same time believe the OT.
God will NOT sit by for 2000 years and watch the worship of non-God Jesus exponentially grow and thrive

Christ was considered God by early Christians viz:

Titus 2:13: Paul refers to Jesus as "our great God and Savior"

Hebrews 1:8: God the Father refers to Jesus as God

John 20:28: Thomas the disciple calls Jesus "my Lord and my God"

Revelation 22:13: The Apostle John calls Jesus the "Alpha and Omega" and the "first and the last"

James 2:1: Jesus' half-brother James calls him "the Lord of glory"

1 Peter 3:15: The Apostle Peter calls on believers to "honor Christ the Lord as holy"

Jesus is also described as having the attributes of deity, including being everywhere-present and knowing what folks were thinking

Petalss:
Which other member of the Godhead is capable of dying? The key issue is not whether Jesus prophesied his own death or resurrection. Rather, it is essential to recognize that it was the will of the Father, not Jesus’s own desire, that led to his death. Furthermore, it is important to note that Jesus did not raise himself; instead, it was God who raised him from the dead.

The problem is that you are differentiating Jesus too much from the Father. They are not that different. The father raising him from dead is almost same as he raising himself. I gave an example: suppose I'm able to send my thought on errands - they'd be separate from me but still totally me.
Jesus is the member of the Godhead that died. That's what we are sure about

Petalss:
The reality is that, whether or not we pray, God remains the ultimate controller and sustainer of the entire universe. His presence and influence permeate all aspects of existence. While God is directly engaged with the affairs of humanity, He does not interfere with our individual actions, as He has granted us the gift of free will. This means that although divine intervention is possible, we are ultimately responsible for our choices and the paths we take.

The OT shows clearly that if a group of bishops, devout worshippers of God, sincerely pray to God to give them clarity as to the true nature of Christ, He would NOT mislead them. And even if they somehow got it wrong He'd shortly correct it. Especially pertaining something as important as how to worship Him.

Petalss:
You're still missing my main point. What are the reasons early Christians did not recognize Jesus as God? Before the voting

You kidding, right? Why would anyone recognize a 33-year old son of a carpenter with no money or connections as God?!!
The easiest thing to say is "God can only have one expression". End of discussion. You avoid all the headache. UNLESS there is just too much compelling evidence that is NOT the case. Then, despite yourself, you say the truth.
The Nicaea Bishops had NOTHING to gain by concluding Jesus is God, and all sorts of headache to raise!

Petalss:
In a nutshell, God can die.

Not only can he, he did! God, the son of God, willingly gave his life, then took it up again, exactly as he said he would - unless you don't believe NT

Petalss:
Did you ever consider that if the divinity of Jesus Christ were so undeniably clear, there would be no need for debate about his nature? This indicates that even in ancient times, there were those who did not believe in or perceive Jesus as God. A prime example is the Arian controversy, which highlighted the fact that many early Christians did not agree that Jesus was of the same substance as God. One could argue that the conclusions reached at the Council of Nicaea represent only one of many possible theological interpretations of Jesus' nature.

Regarding the wisdom of the council members, how can you assert that they were wiser or more enlightened than people today, especially considering you have not had the opportunity to meet them?

It's important to note that the gathering at the Council of Nicaea was not solely a theological endeavor; it was also significantly influenced by political and cultural factors, particularly Emperor Constantine's desire for unity within the Roman Empire. This suggests that their conclusions may have been shaped by considerations beyond mere spiritual insight.

All this discussion would arise if you don't believe that God is involved in human affairs and listens to prayers.
If you believe God is involved and listens to prayers then there is no way he would have allowed worship of Jesus to happen and grow and keep thriving

Petalss:
God, being all-knowing, does not need to become part of His creation in order to understand or empathize with what His creation experiences.

As an omniscient being, He inherently possesses complete knowledge of every emotion, thought, and action within His creation. Given His infinite wisdom and understanding, there is no necessity for Him to physically enter creation to gain further insight, for He already perceives everything beyond the limitations of time and space. His omnipresence ensures that He is aware of every detail without needing to experience it firsthand.

It doesn't necessarily have to be for insight, it could be for any reason. In the case of Lord Jesus He came to die and be raised again after 3 days. He said he himself laid down his life and would pick it up again after 3 days, and that nobody could take it unless he voluntarily laid it down.

MaxInDHouse:
Now you promote fixed, unchanging mindset and constrained when talking about what we read.
The Bible itself made it clear to all it's students that our understanding of the books in it is like the daylight which is gradually getting brighter and brighter! Proverbs 4:18
So the understanding of Bible scholars many centuries ago shouldn't determine what we believe today because we have now discovered they are wrong with most of their conclusions!

But these are biblical scholars of today NOT in the past. Here are some prominent scholars who advocate for a universe created around 6,000 years ago:
ames Ussher,
John Lightfoot,
Henry Morris
Duane Gish
Ray Comfort
And many others

honesttalk21:
Does everything that exist not come from God?

What has this to do with the discussion?

AntiChristian:
This is false!

You are trying to challenge a conclusion reached by people who were much wiser than you and who spent their lives studying the Bible.
They gathered at Nicene and prayed for divine guidance to reach the right conclusion. After debate of several days they came out with the conclusion that Jesus was God or made of same "substance".

What is worship? Did they clap for Jesus or Sang for him? Jesus worshipped God himself! He put his head to the ground for God in worship! even in the Lord's Prater he directed the prayer to God in heaven not himself on Earth! If you meant worship is people bowing down for him then we say that is like the Yorubas greeting elders in respect or as Christians greet the MOGs today! You can show where Jesus is worshipped and it will be debunked right here! And many other people were bowed down for in the same Bible as a sign of respect! An example is Joseph's brothers and parents bowing down for him!

Worship is when you direct all that adoration towards someone you believe is God.
Titus 2:13: Paul refers to Jesus as "our great God and Savior" 

Hebrews 1:8: God the Father refers to Jesus as God 

 John 20:28: Thomas the disciple calls Jesus "my Lord and my God" 

 Revelation 22:13: The Apostle John calls Jesus the "Alpha and Omega" and the "first and the last" 

 James 2:1: Jesus' half-brother James calls him "the Lord of glory" 

 1 Peter 3:15: The Apostle Peter calls on believers to "honor Christ the Lord as holy" 

Jesus is also described as having the attributes of deity, including being everywhere-present and knowing what folks were thinking

Jesus was speaking in parables purposely and many do not understand him! And most of the so-called "i am" verses are found in the book of John and never in the other Synoptic Gospels!
All these are just damage control used by many of you guys! "Jesus" was never mentioned by name anywhere in any Prophecy! He was not called Emmanuel anywhere! And just as John praised Jesus, Jesus did praised him too!

If you believe God is involved in human affairs, why would God allow worship of Christ all this while and always getting stronger?

I tell you, among those born of women there is no one greater than John Luke 7:28[/b]

Jesus too was born of a woman then!

Lord Jesus obviously was.NOT including Himself

MaxInDHouse:
OK so you think i don't have a job shey?
Ọmọ because i choose to believe in God doesn't mean i don't participate in any form of invention nah!

*Try and see if you can get answers to all those points I raised.

About you having a job, that's not the point. The point is that none of the modern things you enjoy was invented by people with a fixed, unchanging mindset constrained and limited to the Bible. This very Nairaland you're enjoying so much was invented and is owned by someone who is not only a full-blown atheist but doesn't even believe that a supernatural exists. I know because I once had a protracted argument with him, trying to convince him to at least be agnostic and presenting him circumstantial evidence of the existence of supernatural. He countered every point I raised.
Not a single major tech guy is religious and many are agnostic or atheist

The Bible never mentioned Universe you are the one running that conclusion, what the Bible said is that life began here on earth some 6,000 years ago and there is nothing that exists today that's not subjective to humans so the universe may have existed longer than that but as for man and animals all started existing according to what the Bible says!

Almost all biblical scholars conclude that the Bible says the universe was created about 6000 years. Google it

According to Scripture, God created "the heavens and the earth” fully formed and functioning in six days, about 6,000 years ago (around 4000 BC). The context of Genesis 1, as well as other places in the Bible, make it clear that these days were ordinary 24-hour days.

AntiChristian:
Man was created to toil! The world is an examination for us! And that's how Allah created and will it. Kids will die. The Prophet Muhammad salallahu alayhi wasalam had three sons and four daughters. All of his sons died before adulthood. Even his daughters that reached adulthood only one survived him. And this does not mean evil is winning in any way! That's the trial of Allah for the believers!

This is present in the story of Job in your Bible. And in Isaiah 45:7, I form the light and create the darkness; I bring prosperity and create calamity. I, the LORD, do all these things.

Woe to him who quarrels with his Maker—one clay pot among many. Does the clay ask the potter, ‘What are you making?’ Does your work say, ‘He has no hands’? 10Woe to him who says to his father, ‘What have you begotten?’ or to his mother, ‘What have you brought forth?’” 11Thus says the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and its Maker: “How dare you question Me about My sons, or instruct Me in the work of My hands? Isaiah 45:9-11

Respectfully, you are not making sense. Once again, are you saying that God is not all good and therefore allows these things to happen OR are you saying that God is not really all powerful and cannot prevent them
happening OR are you saying that God is not involved in human affairs?

AntiChristian:
Since time immemorial Allah has sent Prophets and Books to communicate with humans! Why the need for Him to come? Allah is not in need of us! We are the ones in need of Him! He doesn't need to interact with us at our level for He can't ever be degraded to that level! He is far from such baseless level! Your thought as a human creator is understandable! But God is not a man nor can He ever be!

Petalss:
To start with, a company owner is not responsible for the creation of the employees; he merely hires them to work for his business. His role is to recruit individuals who possess the skills needed to contribute to the organization.

Now, even if we were to imagine a scenario where the owner actually created his employees, one would have to question the purpose of him becoming part of his own creation. What would his intentions be in such a situation?

Bottom line is, God or part of God Himself did come to earth at least once that we are sure of.
Prophets don't accept worship. They would rebuke you to not get them in trouble. Lord Jesus freely accepted worship. A prophet would never use the divine "I am". Lord Jesus said "Before Abraham, I am". The Jews immediately recognized he was calling himself God and picked up stones to stone him. Not only that, the thousands of years before Him and after Him bear Him out. His comming was foretold thousands of years - that God would be comming to dwell amongst us. And when he came he said he was the one. And now that He's been gone two thousand years, which prophet in Bible comes anywhere near Him and what He's become. It is now that prophet JohnTB is indeed not fit to tie His shoes!

MaxInDHouse:
I am not a scientist nah so why do you think i must invent something before i can talk about God?
What i have discovered is that only the Bible has helped to remove politics and racism from the minds of its adherents while your inventors are busy making devices that to kill their neighbors.

We're not talking about you personally. We're talking of your type of mindset. The point is that the mindset that is stuck on the Bible and never changes has never invented anything. Everything you enjoy as modern amenities including this internet, comes from the trial and error mindset.

What has their modifications yielded so far?
And don't come telling me science belongs to atheists there are many scientists in religion.

What a silly question to ask. Their modifications and trial and error have yielded everything you ungratefully enjoy. Nothing you enjoy was invented by people with a fixed, unchanging mindset constrained and limited to the Bible.

You missed the point what you quoted is not to be taken literally because if stars should fall to the earth that means mankind is no longer safe on the planet whereas God made a lot of promises assuring the inhabitants of the earth that nothing can affect our planet home! Genesis 8:21-22; Psalms 78:69; 104:5; 119:90; Ecclesiastes 1:4

But the one you quoted is to be taken literally bah? You pick and choose what to take literally!

How about the very age of the earth/universe itself. You really believe the universe is 6,000 years old??
It can easily be demonstrated that the light entering your eyes from stars take millions of years to get here.
Then there are these:
"The pillars of the earth are the Lord's, and on them He has set the world” (1 Samuel 2:8, ESV).
Psalm 75:3 quotes God saying, “When the earth and all its people quake, it is I who hold its pillars firm." 
"I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth"
What about the Bible’s references to the “ends of the earth” in Deuteronomy 13:7; Job 28:24; Psalm 48:10; Proverbs 30:4.
You can't pick and choose what to take literally.

But there are biblical things that can actually only be taken one way. Example, Herod never had babies slaughtered, and no census was done during his reign. The only census around that time was done by his replacement after Herod died. Those are historical FACTS.. Also, the Roman’s didn’t require people to travel to take part in a census. That'd defeat purpose of census.
Then there is the zombie apocalypse which no one else observed.
Also, independent creation of species which DNA and fossils can easily prove false. With DNA, we can easily trace how all life is related and descended.
Them there is the ridiculousness of Noah's arc - how can all animals and their food of 40 days fit in an arc? How did vegetation survive that herbivores would eat after release? What kept the predators from eating up all the prey once released? If not, how did the carnivores survive? Etc.

MaxInDHouse:
I told you the Bible is not a science textbook it has nothing to teach you about what humans discovers on this planet instead what this book is all about is how you and your neighbor can cohabit peacefully. The title "GOD" connotes SUPREME BEING not SCIENCE INSTRUCTOR so asking what God taught humans regarding scientific discoveries is like demanding from a king how he teaches his subjects to do everything around them while the only duty of a ruler is to maintain peace and order in his domain.

Meanwhile the Bible gave us a clue which shows that humans will still discover so many things on this planet:

Then God said: “Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness, and let them have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and the domestic animals and all the earth and every creeping animal that is moving on the earth.” And God went on to create the man in his image, in God’s image he created him; male and female he created them. Further, God blessed them, and God said to them: “Be fruitful and become many, fill the earth and subdue it, and have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and every living creature that is moving on the earth.” Genesis 1:26-28

In the above verses we learned four points:
• God CREATED humans with the ability to CREATE things on this planet that's why no other animal (as science teaches us) is making any advancement apart from humans.
• No matter the size of any creature humans have the ability to control or destroy it.
• Humans will continue to increase on this planet through sexual reproduction.
• Humans will SUBDUE the planet by discovering so much on it since it has been given to them as their home. Psalms 115:16

Please tell me which of these four points have science proved to be false?

Moreover the Bible made certain statements that scientists found so disturbing when they consider the age Bible writers penned down those words they wonder how they are able to have such accurate knowledge which scientists discovered thousands of years later to be true.

For instance when talking about the shape of planet earth people in Bible times thought the earth is flat but thousands of years ago Isaiah was INSPIRED to write that the earth is SPHERICAL! Isaiah 40:22

Another astonishing thing is how Moses who lived before Isaiah got to know that the earth is hanging in space whereas scientists of their time were of the opinion that nothing can stand without support not until Isaac Newton later DISCOVERED the force of gravity! Job 26:7

Please what influenced these men?

So despite the fact that the Bible didn't teach us science whenever this book speaks on science it's information is ACCURATE what we are still puzzled about are the miracles recorded in the Bible because scientists can't figure out how possible are those things but should that surprise us since the book itself is thousands of years ahead of them regarding how the earth is sustained in space and it's shape?

I think you're intentionally pretending not to get the question. The question is what have YOU discovered or invented.
To put it another way, there are two mindsets. The question is WHAT has your mindset discovered or invented.
Here's what I wrote again (this is the mindset that invented everything we enjoy):

"While others are genuinely and honestly trying to find answers to the questions and modifying their answers as new evidence emerges, you're stuck in an ancient book with contradictions, written by diverse authors, and refusing to modify your views no matter what real-world evidence emerges!"

As for astronomical accuracy, the Bible also says the stars will fall to earth!

Petalss:
The idea of a creator desiring to experience life at the level of their creation is both imaginative and thought-provoking.

It even happens amongst us humans. Owners of companies going in as low-level employee. Have you seen the reality show "undercover boss"?

MaxInDHouse:
What should be the purpose of God?
What should be the purpose of religion?

Only the Bible answered perfectly!

You might have lost focus.
Here's the statement again:
They announced two winners of Nobel prize in medicine today (for helping find covid vaccine), the internet you are typing this on, all the modern amenities you enjoy, how many hove been found from the Bible? How many have you discovered or invented from the Bible, which is what you are stuck on, refusing to modify your views no matter what real-world evidence emerges.

AntiChristian:
God created all things! We are the one dividing them into good and bad!

There are unseen creatures we call Jinn in Islam. They are just like humans who live in communities. Some are God-conscious while others are not. They are powerful than humans. Allah made them from fire! And Satan is from them. They are typical of what you call spirit. God is not like them!

Angels are another world! They are made from light! God is not like them too!



It's unnatural for the creator to enter his creation as a creation! Allah encompasses all things with His knowledge!

We have different understanding of the word "Spirit"

AntiChristian:
I already explained this before somewhere!

The way Adam worshipped won't be the way Noah worshipped! They all submitted to whatever laws Allah gave them!

All of them worshipped only one God not three in one!

You said Allah's will does not change and they were following Allah's will as you are today. You see the contradiction?

AntiChristian:
God created all things! We are the one dividing them into good and bad!

There are unseen creatures we call Jinn in Islam. They are just like humans who live in communities. Some are God-conscious while others are not. They are powerful than humans. Allah made them from fire! And Satan is from them. They are typical of what you call spirit. God is not like them!

Angels are another world! They are made from light! God is not like them too!



It's unnatural for the creator to enter his creation as a creation! Allah encompasses all things with His knowledge!

We are NOT talking of creation. We're talking of innocent child suffering excruciating pains and dying, families destroyed by natural disasters and others left permanently maimed, triumph of evil, etc.

It is not only natural that a creator would at some point like to interact with his creation at their level, but evidence abound of divine visitation. If you created dogs wouldn't you at one point want to experience being a dog - if not for knowledge, for fun

AntiChristian:
They are doing what He commanded them through the Prophet He sent to them!
That's Islam.

Do you expect Allah to tell Adam's offspring incest is forbidden?

You are conflating things. That has nothing to do with Allah's will - there were simply not enough people. Just as if you were eating pork because it's the only food on earth.
That's different from Ramadan, 5-time prayer, etc

MaxInDHouse:
So you don't know that God gave humans the job to discover whatever they can do with the knowledge He gave them to improve their living standards on earth? Genesis 1:28

Ọmọ you don't need God to tell you that what people are discovering must have been found when humans are still making research on how to improve their living condition nah?

That's man's job to discover He has given us the brain to make things better that's why He never created electricity but gave birds feet that can land without being hurn on electric poles!

The question is, how many have you discovered from the Bible which is what you are stuck on, refusing to modify your views no matter what real-world evidence emerges

AntiChristian:
People change as many people occupy the earth! When Adam was alone God created Eve from him. Technically Eve was his daughter or Twin creation!

Allah's will is with Him! And no one can change it!

But you said his will changed - that the other Prophets were doing His will as at then.

Of course Adam married Eve. Who else do you want him to marry??!

AntiChristian:
God is all Powerful, yes! But we don't classify Him as All Good or otherwise! He is the Wise. Only He has a perfect understanding of things! He is aware of the death day of everything even before the thing was created. The child that will die will die! The child that will be born will be born! Everything happen according to His will.

That's not Islamic understanding of God! God created spirits but He is not his creation! He is what He wills for Himself!



God is above such experience!
It's just like the creator of Windows 11 trying to put himself into that operating system to have a first hand experience of it. Na!

So you're saying He's not all good, that there's some mean streak and that explains earthquake or pandemic killing thousands of people and such?

As for spirit, what do you call an entity without a worldly body? Anyway John 4:24 states, "God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth".

Humans and earth are NOT remotely like windows 11.
The natural thing would be that aspects of the creator would visit earth in various forms.

MaxInDHouse:
Why not wait until you they are through with their modifications?

No useful modifications apart from what is found written in the Bible!

They announced two winners of Nobel prize in medicine today (for helping find covid vaccine), the internet you are typing this on, all the modern amenities you enjoy, how many hove been found from the Bible,