₦airaland Forum

Nferyn,

Now, rationality is not a proposition (as you would have us believe), it is a method of examining propositions for their truth-value and naturally rationality presupposes itself, as it would otherwise violate the basic laws of logic.

Ah. Ha!

Now you are starting to get to the core problem that an Athiest and a Christian have when trying to discuss God.

Let me put it this way:

Now, Christianity is not a proposition (as you would have us believe), it is a method of examining propositions for their truth-value and naturally Christianity presupposes itself as it would otherwise violate the basic laws of the Christian bible.

Freelance,

On a certain level, sure your right.

A Holy Spirit filled Christian trying to explain God to an Athiest, is akin to a human trying to explain quantum physics to an ant.

So from a certain point of view, they just look ignorant. To us.

However that does not make them ignorant about other issues.

Ants do fine at doing what ants do.

As Jesus said: They do not even understand human things, how the heck could they understand heavenly things?

i.e. Ants have no reasoning about what they themselves do or are in this world, how could they understand what humans are up too?

But once again, ants are fine at ant things, those are instinctual and no need for thinking about it.

So calling them ignorant is out of place and arrogant they would just feel attacked about the "irrational human things" you are trying to explain.

They would try to impose their ant thinking on you, to prove that your human thinking has to be irrational.

Nferyn,

Now, when the truth of what is to be established is based on the prior acceptance of what is true, then the whole reasoning is irrational and that's what I tried to explain.

Then we are trying to explain the same thing.

I must first believe what you have already accepted as true about rationality, before you can establish your truths about rationality.

That in your words is: irrational.

Nferyn,

Your assumption is that I am using a personal definition of rationality, which isn't true. Besides your intersubjectivity as if there are 6 billion definitions of rationality and that these are relevants is very far off the mark. You have a tendency to muddle commonly held terminology by giving your very personal interpretion of these terms and now you're telling me I have a subjective bias? Ironic, isn't it?

You dismiss the fact that no matter how insane, it may look to me and you, the tribe in melaysia that builds large ladders and falls off of them, believes that they have completely rational reasons for doing so.

I might consider their behavior irrational but they would consider it rational.

Thus everyone mostly tends to have their own definitions of what is rational and what is irrational. Considering that they are 6 + billion humans. I would think that there are going to be, darn near that many definitions of what is rational and irrational.

I would say that it is impossible for a person to proclaim there one sure definition of rational beliefs of behavior, unless one was very arrogant in proclaiming thier ideas of rationality a superior truth to all others.

davidylan,

Well, Gee, aren't you kind to keep trying. Thanks I for one appreaciate your work to help me.

There is no such thing as Prosperity Gospel in the bible and anyone teaching it is a fraud.

Euphoria. Amen.

The Word of Faith/Prosperity Gospel is a terrible deception and vomit of Satan.

Enigma. Amen.

I think it is high time we all take personal responsibility for our beliefs, study the word of God deeply enough to be able to distinguish charlatans from real practitioners of word of Faith.

Boladonas, Consider this.

God said that the church would be in apostacy in the last days. Listening only to things that tickled their ears and refusing sound teachings.

Do you think the apostacy would be something like telling the the church that the urshers are going to bring up some cocaine and lets all snort it and become witches?

Of course not.

That type of obvious apostacy would not lead any christian into apostacy.

So the apostacy would have to be what Paul calls in Galatians chapte 1 verse 7 ____a perversion of the gospel of Jesus Christ_____.

You understand what I am saying? The apostacy that fools people will have to seemingly have a biblical basis, something that doesn't cause people to become immeadiately alarmed and walk out.

Quoting biblical ideas out of context, teaching beliefs with small twists, [b]is of course the only way that the apostacy could come.

Thus, whatever you find to make it seem as if the bible supports prosperity gospel, doesn't vouch for prosperity gospels truth but is just the only way that false doctrines can get in the church, a little bit of twisting and turning is what would have to take place, for something to make it into the church unnoticed.

A peversion of Christianity as Paul says, not an outright denial of Christianity but something to pollute it.

Davidylan,

You talk so loud but say so little. I have to stretch to find any thing in your posts worth responding too.

I tried.

Nferyn,

1. I must believe your definition of rationality.

It is not my definition. Rationality is an objective mode of thinking/acting. If you don't understand that I can give you a full epistemological breakdown of rationality, staring from the three laws of logic.

So only YOUR personal definition of rationality is relevant? Everybody else who does not have your personal definition of rationality is irrelevant.

2. I must believe that irrationality is the root for most evil.

That's indeed a strong claim, but I'm confident that I can prove it for most evil acts.

Really? Now you also have some personal standard of what evil is, besides your personal standard of what rationality is, that I suppose I must "just believe" before you can convince me of this claim.

3. I must believe that others without your belief in rationality are irrelevant.

No, you must only believe that rationality is the only way to determine whether or not something is true or false. Irrationality excludes effective communication and discourse.

Thank you for admitting that I must believe your way first before I can even have this discussion with you, where you are sure that you will prove your beliefs correct.

Hell, I must believe you about a whole bunch of things before you can use those things to show me you are correct.

Isn't that a wee bit circular?

You seriously need to appraise number 32 on that list very well.

Davidylan,

I do have a problem with ego.

When I first got saved, I prayed for the gifts of the spirit of wisdom and knowledge. God granted my prayers.

Even before I was saved, God must have known that I would ask for that.

Isa 45:3  And have given to thee treasures of darkness, Even treasures of secret places, So that thou knowest that I, Jehovah, Who am calling on thy name-- am the God of Israel.
Isa 45:4  For the sake of my servant Jacob, And of Israel My chosen, I call also thee by thy name, I surname thee, And thou hast not known Me.

Anyways.

At first, I was besides myself with pride and joy, when Christians and others would fall over with amazement at the wisdom and smart replies that would come out of my mouth.

God finally sat me down about 4 years ago and told me about "stealing His Glory".

Now when people give me credit for anything I say or do that impress's them, I try to be nice about it because they are just making a natural mistake but really, I am not this smart or wise and know nothing.

Any time, I think I do. That is just Ego or Pride. I got a problem with that one. God Himself told me that and I try to avoid that sin of stealing God's Glory.

Trust me, I am not as smart or as strong as my posts would imply. It is His Spirit that gives me wisdom.

Sometimes I have to reread a post and am shocked by what I have written because I didn't know it before I said it. I am learning it for the first time also.

Smile. Good job anyways on picking up that number 32 is my problem. Not sure you spiritually discerned it because even a blind woman hits the dart board sometimes. But still good job.

Actually, it seems like a fair assessment to me.

However, I come from a class of people considered "Extremely Beautiful".

So maybe it is just me, who is easily bored with the guy who slobbers over me.

I am a little more thrilled by the guy who acts as if it is not affecting him.

My new neighbor, who himself is extremely beautiful, is playing hard to get right now himself.

He is being extremely nice but does not give me the time of day as far as indicating that he is interested.

However, my even harder attitude towards him has driven him to start being overtly nice to my children. Now they get his clothes and all these other very nice expensive things from him.

So he is winning because he knows that I have to keep coming to him and acknowledging his extreme goodness while looking at all that prime beef body and beautiful shiny black skin.

He is forcing me with kindness to bow to him.

And I love it.

Elbaron,

First, The writer doesn't know the scriptures or understand what he is quoting, not that it alone makes his opinions wrong but I wanted to point that out so that others know that in fact David's concubines or wives were raped on the roof in front of everybody, by his son. God did as he promised as punishment to David.

The writer seems not to have read the bible that far but only the part he thinks makes God look bad. I guess he did not go past the part where he thought God had forgiven David.

Secondly, none of the scriptures quoted by the writer prove anything about God's feelings towards women. The writer would have a long way to go, to prove that 'raping a woman' is 'abusing a woman'.

Why do I say that? Because being raped has been called the number 1 sexual fantasy of women. In fact there was a whole genra of books by white women who fantasized about being raped by Black American men.

There are even date rape songs that women love. I personally have seen one white woman state to two black males, she loves when the man just takes the 'sex' and doesn't ask her. She never met them before in her life. Scared the mess out of me being that I was with her and meeting these fools also. I left quickly and she was mad that I made her come away from those men.

Not that being raped is a certified sexual attraction for women, I am just showing that the author might have trouble proving that it is a certified abuse of women, or at least all women.

And especially 1000 wives, who King David could not have possibly been sexually satisfying.

Moving on to keep it even more real.

Here is the answer to the author's question:

Why so much devotion by women to the church?

The bible says it would be the women who spread the gospel but that is covered up now.

That's why, the author probably did not know that.

The first person sent to preach the gospel that Christ is risen, was a woman.

Psa 68:11 The Lord doth give the saying, The female proclaimers are a numerous host.

This version of the bible is called Youngs LITERAL translation.

God said there would be more females involved in proclaiming his word. This is why the churchis lopsided 80 percent female.

The bible also said that those who serve are the greatest in God's church.

So again, this is why you find that women are the servants of all in most churches, doing the hard daily work, while the men just sit around with the pretty jobs -- like preaching for 20 minutes a week.

Men have elevated thier 20 minute a day job but I can assure you, the work that women mostly do -- like serving poor the meals, cleaning the church, helping family's, is the work of God, more so than the mediocre sermons we hear from men.

Dominobaby,

1Co 15:19  if in this life we have hope in Christ only, of all men we are most to be pitied.

Do you understand what this scripture is saying?

If we are hoping in Christ in this life only, we are to be pitied above all men.

i.e. If you need a stress relief program, the world has great ones. No need for hope in Christ there.

Belief in Buddha or something higher than yourself, can get rid of drug addictions.

The world surely has many great ideas to get you rich.

To make you a better human being, there are self-help books. i.e. a better piano player, etc, etc.

Therapy or surgery may help your illness.

This is why you as a Christian are to be pitied more than ALL OTHER MEN, if you have came to the cross of Christ, to solve these personal type of problems, when the world has solutions for those around any corner.

As the bible says: The children of the world are smarter than the children of the light.

This is why I object to "worldly psychology" being taught as if it is Christian.

We are kind of of doing that Catholic thing. You know how they repainted Easter and Christmas and Halloween to make them into "Christian" holidays.

But neglect the holidays the bible actually gives us? So we skip the real feast days and the real things that God tells us to do, and replace them with worldly ideas.

Then it becomes easy for the devil to step in and show lesbians and gays recovered from drugs. Buddist and Muslims cured from mental illness.

The Christian becomes trapped by their own words, if only God can help with those worldly things, then why did God help those who are clearly not christians?

Many a Christian leaves Christianity in disgust, when they figure out that worldly things do just as good a job as curing them of 'worldly things' as the 'worldly things' that the christian offered them did.

Let's look at from another perspective: The bible says "Do not fret" (i.e. stress or worry) 375 times, more than any other saying in the bible.

Rather than obey God and not worry or stress, we now have over 30+ worldly remedies asserted as Christian remedies.

The idea that we could do as the bible commands. Have a glass of wine to feel better and not worry about the problems of tommorrow.

Why that will never even be offered to the world as the Christian thing.

So the world laughs at us and watches as Christianity in Europe for instance has a problem with so many christians who committ suicide, after being told not to talk about their problems because their sick only if they talk about being sick.

So all alone and suffereing and not even allowed to talk about it, christians end up sicker and finally kill themselves.

The advice from the bible, they really needed to hear -- they never once heard it.

Too many Christians were busy passing out worldly advice or the insane advice of prosperity gospel name it and claim it or blab it and grab it preachers.

We need to keep it real.

Being a Christian is a not a "get out of life -free" card.

We are going to suffer the same pains and stress and hurts that every one else suffers just being in this world and then on top of that, we will be hurt and chased and beat down by the devil.

I believe God that sometimes, I may want a glass of wine/beer to feel happier.

I am not going to break my neck or kill myself trying to practice "christian" Yoga or trying to pretend that I am not experiencing this same horrible world that everybody else is.

If I am stressed, I can do as the bible says and sit down and have a glass of wine and forget about tommorrow and the troubles that await me there.

The devil likes pride and those with two much pride to admit that they need a beer and a time of forgetting their troubles, as the bible says we should, are going to keep falling until they just fall off.

It is easily provable that this is what is happening to those who tried christianity and then fell away.

The bible even says that:

2Pe 2:20  for, if having escaped from the pollutions of the world in the acknowledging of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, ((((having come to the church/christ for help)))), and by these again being entangled, ((((But the church or christians actually tell them worldly stuff that ENTANGLES THEM AGAIN in the world.))))they have been overcome, become to them hath the last things worse than the first, ((((THe person is in worse shape when they give up on Christ in disgust at having found the same worldly mess in the church.))))

I used a little color and stuff, so you could see clearly what is being said.

Thus I protest when I see worldly stuff being offered as christian stuff.

Freelance,

When you are talking about a church that used to have to endorse every politician who wanted to be in office in Europe and elsewhere. The Catholic Church, The mother Church of us all.

The only word I question, is "gradually".

Well, known that the Richest group in the world is Christiandom.
The second richest is the War Machine.

It should then be no surprise that Christianity has been the cause of a lot of wars in this world.

The two richest groups support each other.

Or as the bible says:

The LovePeddler (false church) rides the beast (political i.e. military power of the world.).

Rev 17:3  So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

Rev 17:4  And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:

The Bible even shows you the MONEY or FINANCIAL connection between the LovePeddler who rides the beast.

Well, I would just go by the bible.

It says do[b] not [/b] divorce a spouse just because they are a non-believer.

1Co 7:12 But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away.

1Co 7:13 And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him.

1Co 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

1Co 7:15 But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace.