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Kobojunkie:
1. Fortunately, they didn't write any part of Scripture, so simply placing your faith in them because they handled Scripture at some point makes no sense of any kind.

2. Religion was never founded by the authors of Scripture and Jesus Christ never gave men Religion. God warned His people against imbibing the religion of men but they refused and so He disavowed the old priests and shepherds -Ezekial 34 vs - 31. As a matter of fact, Jesus Christ warned His followers against the religions of men — the doctrines and traditions of men— which He noted were lies directed against the Truth of God - Matthew 15 vs 1-10 & Mark 7 vs 1 - 13. And Jesus also assured His followers that He alone is the Teacher, Shepherd, Master, etc., in the Kingdom of God.

3. That statement clearly shows you have never read Scripture for your ownself.

4. Ancient revelations? You are joking, right? The problem remains that none of you believe is in fact stated in Scripture by Jesus Christ the one whom you claim did it. So, either Jesus Christ was unaware of what He supposedly did even after He made clear that He concluded His mission on earth, or you definitely do not know who Jesus Christ is.

1. Yes Peter, Paul, James, John, and all the letters comprising the New testament were written by the founding father, disciples who were all theologians in the history of Christianity. Mind You, Paul never met Jesus, it was through divine revelation that he was able to teach about God and Jesus. Those letters and teachings the disciples and apostles made were all theological teachings not from the words of CHIRST but from divine teaching and revelation. Just like in Acts 10: 11 when Petet got divine revelation about unclean and clean animals. Jesus never taught that, but when the need rose and questions were being asked and Christianity was spreading all through the world, Jesus gave an answer through a revelation. So no we are not placing our faith in them, our faith is in Christ, but many of the teachings we have today were through those men who got revelations and were inspired by God. Mind you, the Bible doesn't just have the words of God and Christ but also the teachings the people inspired by God gave. Those theologans have a major part in the Bible we all hold dear today.

2. God gave Moses directions in detail about how to start the religion Judaism. He gave direction down to the measurement of the temple and the clothes the priests were to wear. From Exodus to Deutronomy. All have details on how to start the religion. Jesus when he said to his apostles go and make disciples of all nation was establishing a religion. When he told Peter feed my sheep, he was establishing a structure, when he taught and gave new interpretations to existing teachings, he was establishing a religion. Religion in basic English is defined as the Belief and the reverance of a supernatural being. We are Christians - followers of christ. Mind you Christianity was formed right from the Bible in Acts 11: 26. Except of course you want to claim that was wrong. Religion cannot exist without God and God is the center of religion, at least that goes the same for Chirstianity and judaism.

3. And standing on the premise that God and Religion are heavily intertwined, I will say that I read the Bible for my ownself but did not delude myself to think that I knew more than those who compiled the Bible in the first place and who wrote the Bible in the first place. The Bible we hold dear today was not all written out till about 100 years after Christ's death written by men of the Christian religion. And the Books which compile the Bible today were hand-chosen under the grace of the Holy spirit in 300 years after Christ under the guidance of the men of religion. In the years before that compilation, several books, letters, teachings, and instructions were used all from men of old who knew Jesus, the apostles, or had divine revelation. You realise that every single one of the Disiples wrote a letter or a book but not all were accepted. If God was against human religion, then why did he guide men to compile a Bible for human's to use and know him. Would it not be contradictory to God's nature. I don't support Religion, beware of human religion but oh, human religion and give you a book which must be held dear if you want to make it to heaven. Come on now. The Bible didn't drop from heaven, it took men of religion, religion founded by God to give you the Bible you are holding on to. Christianity and God are insperable. Why because Christianity is the worship and belief in God and his words through Christ.

4. Ancient revelations is what Peter saw, What paul saw and was converted, what John saw in the book of revelation. Ancient revelation is seen all around the Bible, where men and women received divine teachings which were never passed down, but directly received. This point isn't even worth arguing about. Christ's mission on earth ended but the mission of everyone of his disciples began right from the point of Penticost when the Holy spirit descended on them. He even said that he would send the spirt to give them strength to do the work of God they were called to do. That same mandate is given to us all and that is why chirstian theology holds water. Because Jesus gave us a mission and has stayed with us ever since until he comes again in Glory.

I will say this one last time. It is risky to think that the religion that gave you the Bible you know today, before then there was no compiled Bible, it is risky to think you know better than that religion. If religion nd ancient teachers were able to give you the instructions of Christ, it is shocking to think that not one of them was able to deduce the words of the Bible they gave you. Do not fall for the idea that you know more than 2000 plus years of theological teachings and divine revelations.

But I realise that not I say will change you mind. You have an ideology that at this point, will only take the grace of God and his divine revelation of ancient truths to let you see the errors of your ideas. Long before you and I came to this world and long after we leave, Jesus still reveals and teaches people his ways, helping his church grow. Up until the 1200 the teaching on the Trinity was a controversial topic, it took divine revelation to multiple theologans to allow us have the first knowledge that there is three persons in one God, the very foundation of Christian Belief. It took 1200 years after christ to get a sold understanding and teaching on the core of Christian teaching. I urge you to try reading ancient theology and the theological aspect of Christian history. There is a lot that will remodel your way of thinking.

Kobojunkie:
Dvea, religion takes the truth of God out of context to assert a meaning different from that intended by the authors of Scripture. All you have done here is reveal you are well-versed in the deceitful technique of your religious leaders and not in what is in fact written in Scripture. If you carefully considered each and every passage you quoted there out of context, you would find that what you claim completely differs from the message contained.

In Romans 5 for example, Paul instead said those of God's Old Law were redeemed from the curse of God's Old Law and that is in reference to redemption as spoken of in John 3 vs 1 - 21. He, Jesus Christ, is the redeemer after all, and He never said He took away death as declared by God in Genesis 3 vs 14- 16. Rather what Jesus Christ said is that He gives Eternal life to those of Israel curse by God to die - John 3 vs 14 - 17 & Deuteronomy 30 vs 15 - 20.. How you interpret that to mean that somehow Jesus Christ rendered null and void God's judgement against mankind in Genesis 3 vs 14 - 24 is beyond Scripture.

And you forget that it was those religious teachers who compiled the Bible you so hold dear. The same authors of the Bible were the founding fathers of theological teaching. It was still those authors who began Religion. The Bible is a work religion that came to birth because religion wanted a compiled book of the teachings it taught you and me. To claim that religion is separate from God and to claim that religion and the theological teaching it has since built and grown is false is to say you do not truly understand God. I repeat it is risky to believe that your one-man idea of the Bible is greater than over 2000 years of growth and teaching. When you say religion, which was founded by the same Jesus you claim is detached from God, is not in line with the word of God which religion compiled for me and you, you clearly say that you still don't understand God.

Religion and God are one and the same. The Bible was compiled years after Christ; before that compilation, Christianity lived, grew, thrived, and learned. There are so many things not written in the Bible that were simply passed down from actions, teachings and stories, all recorded in the history of Christianity. Several of our present-day knowledge and understanding of God came because men and women of this religion who dedicated their lives to learning about God in this religion got divine revelations that have thus far become rocks which we hold firm.

Do not fall for the risk of believing that ancient revelations do not hold any ground. Jesus took away the death caused by sin. His entire ministry was to wipe us of the punishment due to the sin of our first parent, the darkness in which we were born. Not physical death but the death of eternal condemnation and brought us the glory of Eternal life. I encourage you to read Theology, the study of God built and formed for years. There are so many flaws in your understanding of Christ to be handled on Nairaland.

Kobojunkie:
Again, you cannot contradict Jesus Christ and at the same time claim you are for Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ made that much clear to anyone paying attention to Him who is God's New Covenant and Law in the Kingdom of God. Marriage which makes a treasure of that which is of the world of men cannot at the same time be of the Kingdom of God, a Kingdom that commands one disavow all that which is of the world of men.

2. The only kind of marriage that can work is one where the partner can disconnect himself/herself entirely from the needs of the union itself — disregard children, partner, needs of the others in the relationship, etc. — that is not a healthy marriage relationship anyone would love to be in. That is an absentee relationship of some sort.

3. We are still on topic... the place of marriage in the Kingdom of God.

Anyways, there is Religion and then there is Jesus Christ — God's New Covenant and Law in the Kingdom of God. 99.9999999% of what Religion tells you is removed from the Truth of God as declared even in God's Law, Jesus Christ. And yes, Jesus Christ is God's EVERLASTING — Unchanging — Law in the Kingdom of God. So, every thing He spoke is forever and Law and standard by which all those who claim to follow Him will be judged when He returns.

Me that does not remember Bible verses, you pushed me to check. Now, let's start a proper theology class. This is going to be long.

In the beginning, the sin of Adam and Eve was disobedience ( eating the fruit of a tree they were not supposed to). It was that sin that brought about the punishment of God. Gen 3: 14 and their expulsion from the Garden. That sin brought with it suffering and death, which we all inherited by default. That sin was not only in their marriage but in everything they did. However, by the death of Christ, we were redeemed, and the curse due to that sin was erased. Romans 5: 12 " Sin came into the world through one man, and his sin brought us death with it. As a result, death has SPREAD to the whole human race. Rom 5: 18 "As the one sin Condemned us all, in the same way, the one righteous act of Christ's death has set all mankind free and gives them life" . The curse which emanated from the sin of Adam and Eve was paid for in full by the death of Christ redeeming us all. The old ending of Mark (not all Bible still carries this, Good News does) says in Mark 16: 16" Whoever believes and is baptised will be saved; whoever doesn't believe will be condemned." That salvation was first for the sin we all inherited from Adam and Eve, as we see in Romans 5:12, and that punishment due to that sin - suffering and death, was paid for in full by Christ on the cross, and we the Gentiles receive that freedom at the point of baptism.

God has never washed his hands off his people, not even after they sinned, not even after He sent them out. God interfered with Cain and Abel. He was there with Enoch, during the flood, after the flood, with Abraham, and with everyone who served him to date. And marriage was no less different.

God's hand was in the birth of Isaaic when he promised him a son through his wife
God's hand was in the marriage of Isaac when Abraham's oldest servant prayed to God to help him find a wife for his master's son - Gen 24: 12

Nobody can downplay the spirituality of marriage. Yes, Jesus said marriage is of this world and cannot take you to heaven, but that does not make it unimportant, just less important than heaven. Let me show you how God used this same marriage you downplayed to save us all.

Isaiah 9: 6 "A child is born to us. A son is given to us. And he will be our ruler... He will rule as King David's successor".
Jeremiah 23:5 “ Behold, the days are coming,” says the LORD, That I will raise to David a Branch of righteousness; A King shall reign and prosper, And execute judgment and righteousness in the earth. Meaning Christ had to come from the line of David. To achieve this

Ruth was Married to the son of Naiomi.
Boaz Married Ruth, and they had Obed, the father of Jesse, the father of David from the line of Judah.
Mary, the mother of Jesus, had to marry Joseph, a descendant of the line of Judah, to give legitimacy to Christ, who saved us all from the punishment of the fall in Gen.

In the plan of salvation marriage was a crucial path in God's plan. No, he did not leave man to his device regarding marriage. He used this same marriage to save us all. The deep-seated spirituality of marriage cannot be downplayed. Marriage and its sanctity were so important to God that as far back as the time of the Exodus, he gave them his ten laws, and two out of those ten mandated that men respected marriage.

Thou shall not commit adultery.
Thou shall not covet your neighbour's wife.

His very own law that determined the blessing and death of man included points that revolved around marriage. If God approves marriage, I don't see why we are even having this conversation.

Mattew 19: 4

“Haven’t you read,” Jesus replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’[a] 5 and said, ‘For this reason, a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’? 6 So they are no longer two, but one flesh. [b]Therefore, what God has joined together, let no one separate.”

Mat 19: Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning.”

Proverbs 18:22
“He who finds a wife finds what is good and receives favour from the Lord."

Proverbs 19:14
“Houses and wealth are inherited from parents, but a prudent wife is from the Lord


Marriage has never been left to man's device; marriage is sacred to God, and it is within marriage that he begins working in people. God blessed marriage as a union where man and woman can unite and share in his love. We see it all over the Bible

Ephesians 5:33
“However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband."

Colossians 3:18
“Wives, submit yourselves to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord."

Hebrews 13:4
“Marriage should be honored by all, and the marriage bed kept pure, for God will judge the adulterer and all the sexually immoral."

Ephesians 5:25
“Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her."

Mark 10:9
“Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.”

Ephesians 5:22-24
“Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

I could go on and on. God has always blessed marriage. Luke 20 - 34, which you are holding so firmly too, was much more profound than just marriage.

Luke 20 in itself was all about those who questioned Jesus's authority to teach, and they played on so many sensitive topics to get Jesus.

Luke 20: 27
27 Some of the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to Jesus with a question. 28 “Teacher,” they said, “Moses wrote for us that if a man’s brother dies and leaves a wife but no children, the man must marry the widow and raise up offspring for his brother. 29 Now there were seven brothers. The first one married a woman and died childless. 30 The second 31 and then the third married her, and in the same way the seven died, leaving no children. 32 Finally, the woman died too. 33 Now then, at the resurrection whose wife will she be, since the seven were married to her?”

That was the question they posed to Jesus and Jesus's reply.

Good News uses much simpler English here

" The men and women of this life marry, but the men and women who are worthy to rise from death and live in the time to come will not be married then. They will be like angels and cannot die. They are the sons of God because they have risen from death"

That passage did not call marriage wrong or a reason not to make heaven. I have said this before here on Nairaland, but when you read the Bible, look at other version and their translation. The Bible in English is a translation of a translation. Many modifications happen between Bible versions. Jesus simply said to them that their worry is baseless because, in heaven, there is no marriage. But in this age, in this time, marriage is allowed, is something we worry about; it's a beautiful activity blessed by God. However, in the age to come, there will be no marriage, and no one will be a wife or a husband. This does not in any way mean that to make heaven, marriage should be scrapped. This doesn't even talk about marriage as a means or not a means for heaven. It was simply an answer to people who were taking the business of this earth to a place where it doesn't exist.

It's the same way Jesus said man shall not live on bread alone, but by the word of God doesn't mean that you should not eat because eating cannot take you to heaven. In all honesty, eating will not take you to heaven, but neither will not eating. Heaven and the race to heaven lie in the good deeds you and I do.

Paul said in 1Cor: 7 “It is good for a man not to have sexual relations with a woman.” 2 But since sexual immorality is occurring, each man should have sexual relations with his own wife, and each woman with her own husband. 3 The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. 4 The wife does not have authority over her own body but yields it to her husband. In the same way, the husband does not have authority over his own body but yields it to his wife."

Acts 17: 28 "For in him we live and move and have our being."

As long as we live, move, and exist in him, by him, and within his will, in marriage, in work, and in school, we can make heaven. It is not by being physically poor, single, or staved. It is by the actions of your heart, the works of mercy you perform, the virtues you grow and live by, and the commandments you maintain, not by being single, not by being poor. He said "blessed are the poor IN SPIRIT. We are all called to humility and poverty in our dealings, to live with Christ always in our minds.

And you cannot say to truly serve God, you must abandon your wife and children. When the Bible clearly instructs you on how to be a good parent

Proverbs 22:6
Train up a child in the way he should go; even when he is old he will not depart from it.

Psalm 127:3–5
Behold, children are a heritage from the LORD, the fruit of the womb a reward. Like arrows in the hand of a warrior are the children of one’s youth.

Ephesians 6:1–4
Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. “Honor your father and mother that it may go well with you and that you may live long in the land.” Fathers, do not provoke your children to anger, but bring them up in the discipline and instruction of the Lord.

Deuteronomy 6:5–9
You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might. And these words that I command you today shall be on your heart. You shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, and when you walk by the way, and when you lie down, and when you rise.

Hebrews 12:7–11
It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline?

I could go on. You can't even deny your relative love and support because you want to serve God. The Bible doesn't even support that

1 Timothy 5:8
But if anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for members of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

I repeat again: When Jesus came down to earth, his one goal was to teach us about heaven and how heaven is greater than everything else. He did not come to tell you not to marry if you want to make heaven. In Matt 5: 29 ; If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.

Anything that will lead you to sin, make you question God, question his ways, make you choose it over God and his Kingdom, anything that you raise higher than God should be thrown out. As long as you do not make anything greater than God, you are fine. The problem is creating an unhealthy obsession and reverence for something other than God, not life's little joys and activities. Marriage is certified and holy. It is not a contract, it is not something God left us to play around with. He approved it, he used it, and he added it to the entire plan of salvation. He valued and acknowledged it. And what God has approved, no man can disprove or find ways to contradict. You are right when you said God's word is not contradictory, so if God has used and worked with marriage, saying he cursed it and as such is invalid is false.

Within the confines of marriage, we are called to serve God and imitate the love he showed and still shows to us. Going back to your claim that God's curse cannot be changed. Isreal was freed from the curse of Adam and Eve much longer than the Gentiles were.

They were freed when God made a covenant with Abraham on circumcision
They were freed when God gave them the commandments and gave them a blessing and a curse on Mount Sinai in Deu 5:23
They were freed when God made Balam bless them three times in Num 23
That freedom came from his love and mercy on them, and he extended that love and mercy to the rest of the world when Israel, his chosen race, refused to be faithful to him. The first prophecy of Christ only came in Isaiah, after years of Isreal's unfaithfulness. That is why when Jesus came, he did not just preach to the Jews. He went to the Gentiles, that was why he sent his apostles to preach the good news to others because his goal was to give us the same loving redemption Israel was already receiving.

The truth is God's greatest attributes are love and mercy and he showed it countless times all across the old testament. If he had left Israel to suffer the fate of the sins of Adam and Eve, then he wouldn't even have tried to make a people for himself.

Finally, I will conclude by saying that you cannot remove religion from God and Jesus. God instituted the structured religion called Judaism

when he gave laws for serving his temple,
when he gave measurements for building his temple
when he gave rules for those who would serve and how they served.

Jesus did the same,
When he told his disciples to go preach, baptise and make disciples of all nations
when he told Peter, You are my rock and on this rock I will build my church
When he told Peter, feed my sheep

Jesus built the religion which today we call Christianity. He taught us how to pray within this religion, the rules to live by, the virtues to strive for, and the destination to look up to. He taught us how to act, react, think, and worship. Jesus lived and worshipped in a structured religion founded by his father, and he left the same principles for his followers. Religion cannot be taken away from serving God. God is the true foundation on which the Christian religion and Jewish religion is built, and to say religion is deceptive is to deny God in himself.

I want to conclude by saying that it is risky to think you know better than years of theological history and teachings. For 2000 plus years, men and women from across the world have read, re-read, and taught the religion of God from divine wisdom, and to claim that all of that is untrue is to deny the growth of any religion that you entered into. Religion is a living being that grows from the acquired knowledge of its followers, not from a one-man translation. I advise you to take the time to read Christian Theology and see the errors in your ideology on marriage and heaven. In truth, you sound extreme in your idea.

I am a Christian today, first by choice before birth. I read the bible cover to cover when I was 17 and found a passion for theology. In life, everything has a spiritual meaning. I am not serving God based on pastor's said, I am serving God based on reading and learning and growing in the the theology and truth. DO the same. I say this to everyone. The Bible is too complex to jump to conclusions, read, research, read ancient interpretations and teaching about topics, and see what the founding fathers said. More than anything else, I believe modern-day Christians are too unwilling to learn themselves that they depend solely on what pastors say. We are called to seek the truth and do so passionately.

Kobojunkie:
I never said anything about them being bad, only stressing the fact that they have absolutely nothing to do with the Kingdom of God so the having of them does not pose any sort of advantage as far as the Kingdom of God , rather the treasuring of them clearly does.

And I am saying that as much as marriage is not a must to enter heaven, it can help you make heaven. If done right, if done well, if done for the kingdom of God. If it follows the teachings of God of selfless love and surrendering, you two can help each other make this heaven we all want. Having it and doing it wrong is the problem. Everything can be used for your salvation. It isn't a must but it can help if done right.

But come o... how long has this discussion been going on. I think at this point we have lost track of the initial topic,

Kobojunkie:
1. Interesting! You base this claim of the spirituality of marriage on the use of analogies that attempt to use marriage in explaining ideas that exist in Scripture. So, you admit the claims that suggest marriage is spiritual are not founded in absolute truths but are taken mostly from analogies used in scripture. Alright! Jesus Christ also used references to gardening, farming, and planting of seeds and trees to explain ideas to His followers regarding the Kingdom of God. Does this then equally mean that farming and plants as well are all spiritual?

2. First of all, how can an idea that Jesus Christ explicitly declared was of this world and not of the Kingdom of God still be construed as part of the Kingdom of God? No be a clear example of contradiction be that one? Is God a God of contradictions? Second, from the very moment, God placed His curse on women in marriage in Genesis 3 vs 16, every argument for marriage being of God or eben of selflessness ceased in meaning.
God never took back that sentence against marriage. Jesus Christ upheld it even when He came with the offer of the Kingdom of God - Luke 20 vs 34 - 36.

Also God's curse on both Adam and eve was due to their sin and not on their marriage. And From the very beginning right after that curse and the fall of man, God worked to redeem man of that curse. By virtue of the death of Christ, that curse has ended. Adam brought us death by his sin, and Christ brought us life by his death. God's curse ended the moment Christ died. And even the Hebrew women were known then to have easy labor, because even with that curse, God showed immense love for his people and ensured they had easy birth, non in the land was barren and they were fruitful all round. even the ground God cursed and said would be hard to produce good fruits was not the case for the Israelites. Heck, God broke all of those curses because of his love for his wife Israel and then sent Jesus to break it for us all. If anything, the rate at which God showed unconditional love for his people, Isreal, even with their unfaithfulness, calls into mind his excess love. And if you say that marriage and it's importance died at the garden of Eden, Adam and eve's story ended in genesis, God called himself husband in Hosea, thousands of years afterwards, and called Isreal wife. Again, if God acknowledges marriage, no one can deny it.

Even Abraham called Gods blessing when he wanted to find a wife for Isiaac, When God came in the form of the three traveling men, he acknowledge the marriage of Abraham and Sarah and promised them a child. The book of proverbs says that a good wife is a gift from God. Marriage for the children of God has always been spiritual and true. And across the Bible God has acknowledge the place of marriage and the good thereof.