₦airaland Forum

The hallmark of a democratic society is equality. Equality among the citizens in the enjoyment of social amenities, equality of rights, obligation and opportunities as posited in section 16 and 17 of the CFRN. Section 17(3) however nailed that ‘all citizens, without discrimination on any GROUP whatsoever, have the opportunity for securing means of livelihood as well as adequate opportunity to secure suitable employment.’ It is however constitutionally wrong if the HND and BSC holders are being treated differently because they belong to different groups. This could go on because the provision of chapter 2 which was included to reduce unemployment, political instability, religious instability, and to advance the country technologically inter alia was made non-justiciable by our legislature. However, the provisions in this chapter including the discrimination are embedded in the African Charter as rights and not something that is unjusticiable.

The case of discrimination based on educational certificate is nothing but a violation of the rights of the people to freedom from discrimination which was tactically removed from the original provision of the constitution (s 42) and included in the objectives which are not justiciable because of the scrupulous and barbaric act of dichotomy against the graduates they intend. To make the discrimination between the two certificates holders disappear in the country, we need to make the provisions in chapter 2 of the 1999 constitution justiciable and to ensure the two certificates holders to work together as equals for the benefit of the country technologically and innovatively.

ehisdan:
this is where self development comes in and at such certificate a better certificate is a booster

That is what you have failed to see since. Self development is what can bring technological development and innovative ideas. There are lot of HND holders out there who have developed themselves far better than a BSc holder. Giving them the same opportunity through equation of degree will afford the HND holders the opportunity to use their intellects to develop the country technologically and innovatively. Without that equation, Nigeria might shut out some best brains from her system because of certificate discrimination and thereby resulting to the opposite of technological advancement.

ehisdan:
as a professor youbhave self esteem which will make you not to downgrade your self to the level of collecting money from students for grades. This is what am talking about

Hmm! I guess that is a fallacious statement. Corruption is not a respecter of position.

luxanne:
Yeah!

Thank you all for making tonight a date.

Scores will be posted in by Fynestboi as soon as he logs back online.

Ehisdan, Joejonah, Emaculate99, OAUTemitayo

Obinoscopy, Ishilove, Xynerise.

Are we done with the debate? Can we post our conclusions?

ehisdan:
the lion is the bsc while the cat is the HND. The bsc has gotten all it entains to be a lion knowledgeably and intellectually being fed by professors and for HND to attain that level they have to go extra mile(PGD)

But you failed to understand that not all the lecturers in universities are professors.

Moreover, it will be wrong to say that an individual with HND who is intellectually stronger than a BSc holder is not strong because he is not a BSc holder. Certificate is not a determiner of someone's intellectual make up.

ehisdan:
That is political. Every one knows what politics is all about bringing politics into this is out of point. Meanwhile you will agree with me that Dasuki you talking about is not having a good reputation

He is only making use of that analogy to prove that huge salary is not a yardstick for good reputation. By saying that Dasuki is "not having a good reputation" then you mean you agree to the fact that huge salary is not a yardstick for good reputation as Dasuki receives good salary and yet he has no good reputation.

ehisdan:
give honor to whom honor is due and you don't give food meant for lion to a cat. That's what its all about.

You should always know that if intellectual capacity is to be measured, many university BSc holders will be cats while many HND holders will be lions. Going by your own assertion, it will be wrong to give a food that belongs to an intellectual lion to an intellectual cat because of his/her certificate. Give honour to whom it is due as a result of his intellectual make up and not his certificate.

Joejonah:
If you don't get into a house, you won't know how it's built. The foreign companies you are talking about think polytechnic In Nigeria is of same standard as could be seen abroad. But Nigerian government and companies knew the oven with which these graduates were baked.

Smiles, if they think the polytechnics here are of the same standard with that seen abroad then they will also think universities are of the same standard with those seen oversea. We all know the standard of education here in Nigeria.

Moreover, do not get confused. They care not for certificates but one's intellectual capacity. Your rebuttal is out of place.

sammyscholar:
Actually, I expected the argument to dwell strictly on how equating the two certificates would improve the technological strength of this country. The subject matter is so sensitive that, if not meticulously handled, would result in, and only revolve around 'dichotomy and discrimination talk' and nothing witty would be learned.

Anyway, Kudos to the debaters.

Nice one bro

Joejonah:
If companies are really interested in them and both are accepted in recruitment. Why the debate?? What are you then fighting for?

you didn't get, i guess. International companies are not interested in the discrimination but Nigerian companies including the public sector are the ones fanning this discrimination. The need of this debate is for the Nigerian government and private Nigerian companies to understand and follow the steps of these international companies as merit is what is necessary for technological development and innovative ideas and not mere discrimination of certificates which is not the true measure of one's intellectual capacity.

Joejonah:
Formalities.... Yes formalities.
That's why employers don't take their graduates seriously.

yes, i agree that they are formalities but they are formalities that are taken seriously and effected to the core. Formalities is the rigid observance of a rule, that means the requirements for vacancy will be observed RIGIDLY

Joejonah:
They do that out of pity...

International companies do not accept applications from HND and BSc placed on the same platform out of pity but they do it for the purpose of merit. They deal with merit and not certificates. There are a lot of skilled individuals in polytechnics that can compete favourably with university graduates and this is known by them.

"After my HND studies in 1998, I worked with the International Institute of Tropical Agriculture (IITA) Ibadan, as a Research Assistant. During the interview for that position, several BSc graduate applicants from ‘well-known’ universities such as UI, UniLag, OAU-Ile Ife, among others, were interviewed as well, but the big university names associated with those individuals did not save them from relegation, as they say in football parlance. What I am emphasising here is that it is the intellectual quality of the individual, not the institution attended, that often matters. If you know IITA, then you will agree with me that when it comes to staff recruitment, personal merit is the watchword, not merely possessing a HND or BSc degree."


This is an excerpt from a writer who graduated from Polytechnic of Ibadan. This will prove to you that most international companies are interested in your intellectual quality. So they are not interested in your certificate but personal merit.

http://www.gamji.com/article5000/news5935.htm

Joejonah:
From the above analysis it could be seen that the difference between HND and B.Sc are so wide that if attempt are made to join both, educational system in Nigeria will crash. Students will no longer take jamb seriously, Greater population of our youths will now be trained by low quality teachers with ill facilities, in tertiary education as many will resort to polytechnic education because of its mode of entry, and it's less rigorous process of training. Theoretical thinking and vast exposure which lead to technological advancement and great innovative ideas will be lacking in them.

Practice without theory is blind and theory without practice is barren. University deals with theory while polytechnic deals with practice. Without theory, practice is going no where and without practice, theory can not materialise. The two are meant to work hand in hand for the technological advancement and innovative idea in the country. The only way that will happen is by equating the two. Saying that theoretical thinking and vast exposure will lead to technological advancement is like saying that Polytechnics have nothing to do in the technological development of the country.

Joejonah:
Those vacancy are for formalities. What they do actually is to handle courses and are not even monitored by any senior lecturers as it is done in the Universities.

You claim it is formalities? That means every advertisement issued by Polytechnics are not to be followed. That means they are players that are playing the general public or an organisation that has no committee that recruit individuals. Or that the formalities will not be strictly followed. Ok! Fine, it is formalities, it is not to be followed, can a primary two student apply for the position of a lecturer and be appointed?

Common, formalities are meant to be followed and are requirements that will be strictly followed to the core.

Joejonah:
You are not current with the trend of University education in Nigeria. It's the current minimum requirements to lecture in the University.
And are you saying there is no difference between B. SC and Ph. D?

If Ph.D is the current minimum requirement to lecture in University then why did OAU invite first degree holders for lecturing job in their 2016 vacancy advertisement. I do not know where you got your current minimum (maybe from the Mars).

http://www.oauife.edu.ng/2015/03/vacancies/

Joejonah:
The assistant lecturer you mentioned aborted your point. You should know assistants are guided and they take orders from someone maybe professors or Ph. D holders. There is nothing like assistant lecturer in the polytechnics

You are wrong!
if there is no assistant lecturer in polytechnics, will there be vacancy for assistant lecturer?

http://www.2015jobsnigeria.com/auchi-polytechnic-academic-non-academic-staff-jobs-vacancies-in-nigeria-2013/

Joejonah:
You are not current with the trend of University education in Nigeria. It's the current minimum requirements to lecture in the University.
And are you saying there is no difference between B. SC and Ph. D?

If Ph.D is the current minimum requirement to lecture in University then why did OAU invite first degree holders for lecturing job in their 2016 vacancy advertisement. I do not know where you got your current minimum (maybe from the Mars).

http://www.oauife.edu.ng/2015/03/vacancies/

ehisdan:
B. Sc is superior in the sense that garbage in garbage out what u are taught is what u know. if you are taught by quack you will be a quack. you can not compare some one that is taught by professor to some one who is taught by an hnd holders.

you painted the whole show as if you have no lecturers in your school that are not PhD holders. Before you can be a lecturer (from lecturer I and above) in your school, Auchi Polytechnic, you must posses a PhD. A lecturer II must possess a master degree or 3 years of solid experience and good honours with an evidence of proceeding to masters. The same principle for lecturer II applies for lecturer III, then why are you saying that you do not have good lecturers compared to universities. Since, polytechnics are governed by a body who gives rules which the schools must follow then we can take this as a standard for other polytechnics. Therefore, we cannot say that lecturers in polytechnics are quack and BSc is superior to HND.

http://www.2015jobsnigeria.com/auchi-polytechnic-academic-non-academic-staff-jobs-vacancies-in-nigeria-2013/

ehisdan:
B. Sc is superior in the sense that garbage in garbage out what u are taught is what u know. if you are taught by quack you will be a quack. you can not compare some one that is taught by professor to some one who is taught by an hnd holders.

what you mean is that all the lecturers that are lecturing you in your school are quack and have no knowledge of what they are lecturing, right? if that is the case, why are you not quack?

Joejonah:
I thought you knew the difference between graduate assistant and lecturers. Those first class are genius in making, despite this they are not allowed to lecture 300 level students and above. Come to the polytechnic and see your fellow students (course Mate) been assigned course to lecture you by the lecturers

Only Ph.D holders are allowed to lecture? I have many lecturers who are not Ph.D holders. Your statement is incorrect.

Be it graduate assistant or not, I don't think we have much to differentiate in as much as this set of people are qualified to lecture university students.

Joejonah:
On how students are absorbed into B. Sc and HND program a great difference is also observed. In the University the introduction of post- UME Screening has effectively put paid to issue of admission racketting and reduced incidence of examination malpractice and cultism. There is evidence that show that products of post UME have shown and demonstrated remarkable commitment in their studies than pre-post UME students. It should be noted that while universities are taking these steps, polytechnic are lagging behind, offering mass-admission to low quality reluctant, unpersistent students who can't take the pain of scoring 200 aggregate in JAMB, only for them to be churned out the same way they were absorbed.

it is a fallacy to say that Post UTME has reduced the case of cultism in university. How can post Utme reduce the case of cultism?

Also, polytechnics have a way of testing students that is similar to Post Utme. Like some polytechnics, not all university test their students before admitting them.

Joejonah:
It is a popular saying that “no education can rise above the quality of its teachers”. Now taking the banner to the quality and quantity of lecturers found in both institutions. It is a known fact that it has been established that the minimum requirements for someone to qualify to lecture bsc undergraduate is a Ph.D, and this is the highest qualification found in the polytechnic and most of the lecturer with this degree in the polytechnic are considered as administrative officers and they hardly lecture. So the people training our HND holders are their colleagues(HND holders), B. SC, MSc holders and we can't undermine the place of time based experience, exposure, research work which the professors in the University has to the unqualified teaching staff found in the polytechnic.

I have many lecturers that are not Ph.D holders. If what you said is true, then that means the first class graduates (without Ph. D) that are always retained in universities to lecture students are not lecturers but probably cleaners or librarians or anything other than lecturers.

Joejonah:
It's totally untrue.
Equate SSCE with B. Sc and check if anybody will border about attending University again.

The two institutions are basically taught in different in debth of their courses. The polytechnic is shallow....

you cannot equate SSCE with polytechnics because Polytechnics are tertiary institutions and not Secondary schools. They learn basically almost the same thing that is learnt in universities while Senior secondary students only dream of learning these things. Therefore, SSCE can never be equated with University.

Joejonah:
It is very important that we look out for the differences and similarities between BSC and HND, both in quality and purpose before thinking of equating them. In Nigeria, B.Sc and it's equivalent are awarded by the University only and these universities are accredited, monitored and assessed by National University commission (NUC). While HND on the other hand are awarded by the polytechnic only and these polytechnics are monitored, accredited, and assessed by National Board of technical education (NBTE). These two bodies are guided by different rules. They offer both the content of the courses, it's debth, area to be covered and qualifications of lecturers to handle these courses and this assessment are widely different from the one offered by (NBTE) offering assessment to the polytechnic because they act independently. With this one can deduce that an electrical engineering graduate from the University is different from those in the polytechnic as the former is exposed to a wider coverage of his field. That is to say the former was taught all that the later knew, and we can't say it's vice versa because NBTE is restricted by law not to offer equivalent courses NUC will accredited for the universities.
Oxford dictionary (7th edition).

I agree that the two institutions are guided by two different bodies and that they have different reasons for their establishment. Mere looking at the name of the body controlling the polytechnic education, we can deduce that polytechnic is purely established for technical aspect of the field. The polytechnic students are taught how to do things while the university students are taught the theoretical aspects. Both of them have their own loopholes. it is necessary for them to have different rules and courses they offer as they offer courses that will suit their purposes. Normally, they are meant to work together as "practice without theory is blind and theory without practice is sterile."

ehisdan:
The level of B.sc degree and HND degree acquisition
These two degrees are of great difference. The highest years of study on normal ground in the polytechnic is five years, but in the University depending on the course of study is seven years. How then can you equate five to seven?. In polytechnic hnd degree can easily be gotten than getting a b.sc in the University. In the polytechnic a student can easily buy his/her way to top bland acquire the result but in the University the case is reverse, in the sense that most of the lecturers are professors, doctors and PhD who has there image to protect and will not want anything to bring them down. While in the polytechnic most of the lecturers are hnd holders, b.sc and PhD holder can easily collect money from students give them what they want.

Conclusively
The panacea to technological advancement/innovation is not equating hnd to b.sc rather self development and government policy on technology.

You are actually wrong here. Nigeria is corrupt. Buying one's way to the top with money and other things is not peculiar to polytechnics. It is peculiar to almost all the schools in the country. Saying that there is no bribery in universities is fallacious.

moreover, the discipline that is studied for seven years is not studied here in polytechnics, if actually it is being studied, come to think of how many years that will be spent in its pursuit. Mere looking at the discipline offered by the two institutions, you will agree with me that the highest of the two disciplines is five years.

ehisdan:
Equating HND with B. SC: a panacea of technological advancement/innovative idea

Equating hnd with b.sc will not make any change to technology
HND is a degree as well B.SC they have no additional support to technology/innovative idea of a country. There are so many people out there who does not have the opportunity to be in the four walls of higher institution but are technologically sound and can even lecture a b.sc and hnd degree holder what can not be acquired in higher institution.

if there are so many people out there who have no opportunity of being in the four walls of higher institution and are technological sound to the point of being able to teach both HND and BSc holders, then that means HND and BSc holders are both inferior to this set of people. if they are both inferior to this set of people, then it will be wrong if we regard BSc as superior to HND holders

ehisdan:
University is technically above polytechnic
I have never seen any jambite who ignored university and filled polytechnic Just because he/she want to be technically sound or advance technologically. Rather he/she will have to choose university which is the highest institution to to obtain or acquire his/her dream. Technologically universities are more equipped compared to polytechnics, the level of acquisition of knowledge is higher than that of the polytechnic, in the sense that the lecturers in the University are vast in knowledge and most of them has attain the highest level of education (professors).

No! Students ignored polytechnics not because of the quality of education but as a result of the discrimination they will face in future in term of employment. Let the BSc and HND degrees be equal, then you will see how people will rush to polytechnic. In the real sense, this will reduce the pressure mount on universities for admission and frustration students will have to go through. Thereby limiting suicide thought or even suicide as a result of frustration of getting university admission.

luxanne:
And your team mate?
@ Emaculate99

I mean team mate

luxanne:
Team OAU please.

Emaculate99, OAUTemitayo

Please, my co-debater is having issues with his internet connection.

EQUATING HND WITH BSC: A PANACEA TO TECHNOLOGICAL ADVANCEMENT / INNOVATIVE IDEAS

NAME: Emaculate Ife representing OAU,

Position: Support.

My brother got a call to help a friend get a job for his niece. Upon seeing her CV, he found out that she is an HND holder. It is however a policy in his company to employ BSc only. He felt bad for this girl because she opted in for polytechnic education due to her family’s financial constraint. She now sells foodstuff in the market due to the employment discrimination in the country.

Constitutionally, equality is a necessary principle which cannot be extinguished by the same law that prescribes it unless it is a “utopian fantasy whose hopeless pursuit” would lead to “tyranny.” It is no news that the discrimination between BSc and HND holders is becoming worse each day as companies prefer BSc to HND even if the latter is more skilled than the former. They believe in certification as against the equal employment opportunity advocated by the constitution of Nigeria. But what will happen if skilled graduates are shut from employment as a result of certification? Technological advancement or technological adversity? You choose.

Moreover, is certificate the basis of innovative idea or improvement in technology? It is barbaric to put HND below BSc because of a mere certificate. Innovative idea is a no respecter of certificate. Anyone can have innovative idea that can move the country forward technologically. If certificate is the basis of innovative idea, there should be no Microsoft and Nairaland today. You know both founders are dropped out, right?

Furthermore, the core policy of Nigeria of evolving into a technological based country is on the ruin as the discrimination against HND holders has continue to wear an ugly look. It is no news that findings have proved that some polytechnic students are in some cases far better than their university counterparts on the field (Sammyscholar, a representative of Polytechnic of Ibadan, is a perfect example). If this is the case, why do the government and private individual put BSC holders ahead of HND holders without recourse to their skills and ability? Is that not a poison to the realisation of the nation’s technological development? Someone like Sammyscholar would be deprived a job because a company’s policy cannot employ a HND holder when in the real sense, if he should be given an equal opportunity to compete with the graduates, he will compete with them favourably.

In addition to that, the HND holders upon getting job are treated with ultimate distaste and inequality as regard to the salary grade level (HND: GL 07 & BSc: GL 08); security personnel: BSc (commissioned) while HND (non-commissioned); promotion of the BSc is unlimited while the peak promotion for HND is GL 12. HND holders are mostly kept as slave workers as against the status of BSc holders. This is evidently shown in Banking/ financial sector where HND holders are treated cheaply because of their degree. Can any innovative idea come out from someone who has been battered psychologically with the ugly treatment he is going through? I doubt it.

Come to think of it, international companies in the country and companies in advanced countries have no time for certificate discrimination. Their employment is based on meritocracy and not mediocrity as the case is in Nigeria. This is a reason for their technological advancement. If Nigeria wants to advance, it must take a clue from this set of people.

Nigeria is so much interested in curbing criminal activities and unemployment; yet it operates in such a way that criminal activities and unemployment rate will escalate. Giving out policies that do not allow for the employment of HND or making them a second class employees will not only make them indulge in criminal activities, it will also increase the unemployment rate in the country. And this will not avail them opportunity to give out their well-thought ideas which can help move the country forward technologically. This will also reduce the pressure mount on universities for admission.

Polytechnic students are mainly trained to be practically relevant in their field. They are trained on how to do things in their field, while university students are trained to research into why something is done in a field. Ideally, the two are to work hand in hand for the development of the society as “practice without theory is blind and theory without practice is sterile.” Giving prominence to theory means that no productive idea will materialise, however, putting both practice and theory together will advance Nigeria creatively and technologically. Theory and Practice can only work together if both of them are given equal recognition.

Can someone who has passion for Art class be forced into science class and cope well and vice-versa? How do you want graduates to cope when in the real sense they were forced into university because of the discrimination and mentality of the citizenry? Someone who has passion for polytechnic can only cope and deliver better if schooled in a polytechnic. This is the case in other advanced countries but it is not the same in Nigeria as polytechnic materials are forced into universities as a result of the discrimination in the labour market.

Taking cognisance of the aforementioned and the current situation in Nigeria, I believe you will throw your full support behind me that equating BSc with HND will bring about technological advancement in the country.

REFERENCE:

BSc vs HND in Nigeria
www.uniuyoinfo.com/bsc-vs-hnd-in-nigeria/

A perspective on the discrimination against Nigerian HND holders by Christian Dimkpa
www.gamji.com/article5000/news5935.htm

Aregebsola Denies HND holders recruitment into Osun civil service
www.infomationng.com/2012/12/aregbesola-denies-hnd-holders-recruitment-into-osun-civil-service.htm

Ending BSc and HND dichotomy
www.thenationonlineng.net/ending-bsc-and-hnd-dichotomy/

HND and BSc discrimination, part of Nigerian’s major problem
www.nigeriamasterweb.com/Masterweb/MasterwebMobileNews.php?rss_id=OTM=

1999 constitution of Nigeria, 2011 as amended

booked. cc OAUtemitayo

Fynestboi:
PROCEDURES
6:55 -- Debaters (Noskyboy, ObiZeal, Catalyst4real,
Abuklaw) and judges (Jarus, Adeaks, Joseph1832)
registers presence
7:00 – The Chairman, Lalasticlala declares the
debate open
7:00 - 7:30 -- Debaters post their arguments
within 30 minutes, maximum word limit is 1000
7:30 – 8:30pm – Rebuttals - A debater takes on
his opponent’s view, puncturing his or her points
- This the debater does by quoting the said
comment and then countering it with his or her
own views....

kindly correct this pls on OAU v Auchi Polytechnic page.

https://www.nairaland.com/2963214/equating-hnd-bsc-panacea-technological#2963214.1