₦airaland Forum

danidon:
I am putting the whole blame on

I think we have to be very careful of what we write or say. The people using the word false teacher need to retract their statements and for those pouring vituperations on the man of God, i just pray that God will forgive all of you.

Christ embassy is not my church but i have over 500 copies of his videos, DVD not to talk of his daily devotional because he is one of the Pastors that preaches the unadulterated word of God in the world today. Remember the bible says 'touch not my annointed and do my prophet no harm'.

Oyakhilome has taught the following --- after reading them would you still say he preaches "the unadulterated word of God"?

1. Do not pray to or through Jesus Christ

2. Jesus Christ tried to do miracles but he could not

3. Nowhere in the New Testament are we told to obey God


Let me stop at these three, there are others yet!

Well, assuming photo is true as/and Chris Embassy people have not denied it as far as I can see:

[s]This is the Lord's doing and it is marvellous in our sight[/s]

Naaaaah, more like

This is the fruit of mugus' tithes and Offer 7 and it is marvellous in Oyakhilome's sight!


Meanwhile the people in East Africa and other poor people everywhere don't know what is good for them; the way to get out of their poverty is by giving --- especially to Oyakhilome (and maybe Joagbaje) in the form of tithes, "voluntary" offering, Offer 7 etc.

Edit I forgot to add: this giving to become rich thing - especially through tithes and Offer 7 etc - is a law, a principle, a spiritual principle; obedience of this law brings blessing and the pastor collecting it carries blessing.

Meanwhile remember importantly: apart from obeying the law to give to pastors, nowhere in the New Testament are we told to obey God!

PA1982:
Glad to get a reply from you!
Sorry it isn't about the historical reality of the Kings David and Soloman!

I write what I choose, my dear; don't you know that by now?

PA1982:
I've read similar opinions elsewhere.
Who hasn't?
I notice you didn't disprove them, though.

When people want to believe the worst about Christianity rather than to look objectively at evidence, it is usually pointless to "debate" with them; but it is often necessary to point out their dogmatism, duplicity, sleight of hand etc. Even you yourself gave a link to an Israeli government website which says:

Until very recently, there was no evidence outside the Bible for the existence of King David. There are no references to him in Egyptian, Syrian or Assyrian documents of the time, and the many archaeological digs in the City of David failed to turn up so much as a mention of his name. Then, on July 21, 1993, a team of archaeologists led by Prof. Avraham Biran, excavating Tel Dan in the northern Galilee, found a triangular piece of basalt rock, measuring 23 x 36 cm. inscribed in Aramaic. It was subsequently identified as part of a victory pillar erected by the king of Syria and later smashed by an Israelite ruler. The inscription, which dates to the ninth century bce, that is to say, about a century after David was thought to have ruled Israel, includes the words Beit David ("House" or "Dynasty" of David". It is the first near-contemporaneous reference to David ever found. It is not conclusive; but it does strongly indicate that a king called David established a dynasty in Israel during the relevant period.

Another piece of significant evidence comes from Dr. Avi Ofer's archaeological survey conducted in the hills of Judea during the last decade, which shows that in the 11th-10th centuries bce, the population of Judah almost doubled compared to the preceding period. The so-called Rank Size Index (RSI), a method of analyzing the size and positioning of settlements to evaluate to what extent they were a self-contained group, indicates that during this period - David's supposed period - a strong centre of population existed at the edge of the region. Jerusalem is the most likely candidate for this centre.

To sum up the evidence then: in the tenth century bce, a dynasty was established by David; the population doubled in the hill country of Judah, which acquired a strong central point, probably Jerusalem, a previously settled site that was important enough to be mentioned in Egyptian documents. These facts are certainly consistent with the biblical account; but, before examining the biblical version, we should consider the nature of the Bible and of the historical material it contains.

Well, why not debate that first instead of asking me to "disprove" anything?

PA1982:
I wonder if you are quite so sensitive to plagarism when it's done by someone who conforms to your worldview?

I'm glad you only "wonder" because evidently you don't know me.

PA1982:
Why do you bring up the contested works of 2 Peter here?
Can't you keep to a topic?
We've discussed  2Peter on another thread and if you want to continue, do so on the pertinent thread, instead of muddling the subjects together!
I think it was be a courtesy to the Nairaland readership, don't you?

I would suggest you read the post again and maybe if you get the context in which the matter was brought up you will realise that it was pertinent.

PA1982:
What does this have to do with the subject of King David?
Is there some reason not to learn about the historical evidence of King David?

Well, why am I not surprised that you do not see the relevance of learning to think objectively and clearly?

PA1982:
Of course I remember my 'sweeping' statement.
And I stand by it.

A sweeping statement, proven to be misinformed; yet you accuse writers who weighed both sides almost of deception! Cool.

PA1982:
What do we know about Socrates?
Almost nothing.
His pupil, Plato, is an historical personage and I daresay a certain idealisation of his beloved professor very likely comes into play.
So.
Why bring up Socrates in a discussion of King David?

Have you been following the thread at all? Did you not see Image123's post which led in natural progression to my question concerning Socrates, Plato etc?

And the question remains: have the teachings of Socrates (who himself left no writing) been "corrupted"? (Again, it is natural progression arising from posts subsequent to that Image123's post - if you do not want to address it, just leave it be and anyone who is interested can come and take it up - or not)

PA1982:
Well, thus far you've not added anything useful to the subject- it would be great if you did!

A la British parliamentarians, I refer the poster/reader to the answer I gave earlier: "I am happy to leave those who are interested or those who have special or revelation knowledge of the subject to get on with it. I will watch and read happily and contribute if I have any useful thing to add whether directly or for clarification."

BlueDiva:
I ask, if he answers, i thank Him.
If He doesn't answer, i still thank Him.

No point worrying myself.
If God choses that i suffer when He can make me comfy, so be it.

As a précis of a lot that has been said and even of biblical teaching --- pretty good!

PA1982:
Good to read your posts, Enigma!
A shame they have nothing to do with the OP, as I was hoping you'd have some insights on the subject.
Remember?
It about historical evidence for the Kings David and Solomon.

Thanks, and oh I do indeed know what the OP is supposed to be about; shame the OP stands on falsehood and deception.

PA1982:
Plagarism is a tricky subject.
Sometimes it's about sloppy posting.
Sometimes it's about deliberate deception.

Plagiarism is a very serious subject. The case of the opening poster falls into the deliberate deception category.

PA1982:
I'd encourage Nairalanders to cite their sources.
It makes for more interesting reading and allows people to investigate for themselves.

Yes, that is true.

PA1982:
To me, any forum's worth is measured in the horizons it opens for me by way of information.

But then it also matters what you do with the information and I say this for a particular reason i.e. my experience with you on another thread where you wrongly accuse some writers (including of material you found yourself) almost of deception whereas you were the one who chose to be dogmatic rather than objective about the arguments concerning the authorship of 2 Peter.

Second, what one can learn, in appropriate circumstances, is not limited to information alone; equally if not in fact more important is how to think, how to think objectively, how to think properly, how to think clearly.

PA1982:
Now for your comments on
Socrates, of course never wrote a word . . . . .

Ah ha, wunderbar! If Socrates never wrote a word, how do we know what his teachings actually were in original form?

Or have his "teachings" been "corrupted" by those whose writings point to them (remember another of your sweeping statements that the Bible has been "corrupted"?

PA1982:
Anyway, enough of this digression about Greek philosophers- how about more on the subject of the OP?

I am happy to leave those who are interested or those who have special or revelation knowledge of the subject to get on with it. I will watch and read happily and contribute if I have any useful thing to add whether directly or for clarification.

JeSoul:
. . . and Enigma, difficult but beautiful poem . . . *disentangle peace from pain* beautiful.

Did you try the music as well?

For cross-reference: https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-751299.32.html#msg9157536

A bit long and complex but should be worthwhile: http://www.ntwrightpage.com/Wright_Women_Service_Church.htm

Well, https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-704762.0.html

Happy reading.

Image123:
Plagiarists are plagues, confirm.
@op and friends.
Are we looking for the writings, sculptures and confirmations of herdsmen and uncivilised illiterates?

Ah, here is another thing the evangelical atheists say, in their usual fraudulent manner, which people readily buy. Do they similarly refer to other writings of antiquity as the writings of "uncivilised" people. When did people like Socrates, Plato, Aristotle etc live, work and write?

This version now includes the 2nd verse which was missing in the earlier version.

[flash=400,300]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXt8QjSUsv8[/flash]

Forgive the nature of my contribution but I sincerely hope it benefits someone - anyone.

We Cannot Measure How You Heal

We cannot measure how you heal
or answer every sufferer's prayer,
yet we believe your grace responds
where faith and doubt unite to care.
Your hands, though bloodied on the cross
survive to hold and heal and warn,
to carry all through death to life
and cradle children yet unborn.

The pain that will not go away,
the guilt that clings from things long past,
the fear of what the future holds
are present as if meant to last.
But present too is love which tends
the hurt we never hoped to find,
the private agonies inside
the memories that haunt the mind.

So some have come who need your help,
and some have come to make amends,
as hands which shaped and saved the world
are present in the touch of friends.
Lord, let your Spirit meet us here
to mend the body, mind and soul,
to disentangle peace from pain
and make your broken people whole

[flash=400,300]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewrR6yIWa68[/flash]

Even a post by the poster (post #4) in response to a question was lifted and plagiarised from another website!

Pitiful.

OK time to put this thread in perspective.

1. First, the opening poster Ansel1 has already been proven to be a deliberate forger, plagiarist, cheat and fraud on a follow up thread. https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-759143.0.html#msg9154678

2. Even this very present thread is another instance of plagiarism. See http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=53466
  (EDIT:  and quite a number of other sites on the Internet actually)

3. The cheat who even claims accepted adulation and praise (and recommendation to write a book) for reproducing other people's work uses the grandiose "we know" when in truth s/he probably knows bugger all! Take one example: the cheat and plagiarist of all people(!) claims "we know" that the psalms are plagiarisms of Ugaritic material; well, let's assume for one moment that the cheat is someone to be taken seriously, thus compare (from a brief review of a 2009 book - and of course the best thing is to get and read the book itself):

This volume offers a fresh analysis of a central problem of comparative Ugaritic-Biblical scholarship: the relationship between biblical psalms and Canaanite literature. A critical survey summarises the various stages of comparative scholarship over fifty years. There follow the two principal parts of the book: the first concerns Hebrew psalms with affinities to Ugaritic literature, and the second Ugaritic psalms and prayers with affinities to Hebrew literature. A detailed analysis of the form, structure, themes and motifs of biblical texts, and a scrutiny of their verses, cola, phrases and vocabulary against the background of ancient Near East literature lead to the thesis that there is no justification for assuming that Canaanite psalms are found in the Bible, or that biblical literature and Ugaritic literature should be considered a single entity. It is alleged that affinities may be elucidated based on common thematic, linguistic and stylistic elements.

From http://www.amazon.co.uk/Ugaritic-Publications-Foundation-University-Jerusalem/dp/9652238643


I have always said that the evangelical atheists (and even some other anti-Christians) are only too happy to resort to intellectually dishonest  methods (and indeed other fraudulent means) in their desire to discredit Christianity in particular.

The pitiful thing is that many supposed "intellectuals" are also quite ready to take the words of the cheats as gospel, because it discredits Christianity, without even the most basic requirement of at least a cursory check for accuracy.

All good.

MyJoe:
Yeah. You repeated what I already said. By the way, I wasn't referring to your post, since I think it is good you exposed plagiarism as you have apparently done. ("Apparently" because I have not clicked on the links to confirm for myself.) But once that was done there was hardly any need for re-revealing it without contributing anything to the thread. And in no way does the apparent plagiarism here vacate the issues raised, which Joagbaje, Chukwudi44 and Pastor AIO have faced squarely.

I don't have any problems with the people who want to discuss the "issues" doing so and I have not stopped anyone doing so. For me personally, the OP simply induces one big fat yawn as there is nothing new to me in it. In fact, after reading only a few words of the OP I knew straightaway that it was lifted; reading further revealed that it was a patchwork of copy and paste. The poster simply re-ordered paragraphs from the materials plagiarised and changed one or two words here and there e.g. "shift" and "transformation".

Irrespective of any discussion of the "issues" the question of plagiarism is very pertinent on the thread and the credibility of the poster is shot to smithereens.

For one blogger's perspectives on plagiarism in the Johann Hari case, here is a piece in which the writer even goes as far as describing such actions as stealing.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/bagehot/2011/09/unethical-journalism

Here, the story about one of the evangelical atheists' (and anti-Christians') fancy boys and his plagiarism (though he does write some decent stuff on some issues to be fair).

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2011/sep/14/johann-hari-apologises-orwell-prize

Copying and poasting other people's ideas and passing them off as your own and even accepting praise and adulation for them is fraud!

1 Timothy 6

3 If anyone teaches false doctrines and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching, 4 he is conceited and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions 5 and constant friction between men of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain.

6 But godliness with contentment is great gain. 7For we brought nothing into the world, and we can take nothing out of it. 8 But if we have food and clothing, we will be content with that. 9 People who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires that plunge men into ruin and destruction. 10For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.

11 But you, man of God, flee from all this, and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, endurance and gentleness. 12 Fight the good fight of the faith.

Verse 11 above shows what Christian teaching is about and what the "churches" should be focusing on. Instead in direct opposition to Jesus' and apostolic teaching, the WoF movement focus on material things mining passages from the Old Testament and usingf Old Testament personages as examples.

If ever they turn to the New Testament they twist the scriptures either fraudulently or ignorantly as with the disgraceful misuse of 2 Cor 8:9; or saying the apostles "chose" poverty or to be martyred etc.

The WoF movement, well Word of Faith doctrine, is decidedly unbiblical.

kalokalo:
The Word of Faith doctrine is irreconcilable with the teachings and practices of Jesus Christ. That is why teachers of this doctrine usually use Old Testament  scripture and examples to buttress their lies. They never use the gospels especially the reddened words of Jesus to teach prosperity, health and wealth!.

They teach men to desire the carnal things of this world instead of teaching the cross and self denial which was what Jesus preached and practiced. They are popular and renowned because they tell men what their itching ears want to hear. They use their stupendous earthly riches as "undoubted proofs" of God sanctioning their messages. 

They devour the poor's tithes and offerings using it to live extremely opulent and lavish lifestyles instead of a modest lifestyle that a true believer would live. Their fruits has identified who they really are: wolves in shepherd's clothing!! .

They jet travel all over the earth to make new converts and then put heavy loads on them via tithes and offerings while not lifting a finger to ease the burdens of widows, orphans and the poor. They build massive cathedrals to stroke their own egos instead of building the Lord's real church by meeting the flock's spiritual and physical needs.

+1

The OP is to a considerable extent a copy and paste job anyway.

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/james_still/gospel_john.html


http://www.religion-online.org/showchapter.asp?title=584&C=819


etc etc etc actually

Aiyek'oto!

:sigh:

^^ Indeed! Also, I actually wanted to mention that I agree with the post by Claus above that in saying "correct pattern" I do not think the man was referring to doctrine but to styles/mode of/in services etc.

^^ I would say that from the man's tone and body language he clearly did not mean "correct pattern like we have" in a particularly boastful manner; I think I would even go as far as saying he was dismissive, in a sense of their own, "correct pattern". I read him as saying "what we think or what we see as correct pattern". His hands were even in the air when he said "correct pattern" ------ though not clearly depicting quotation marks but readable as doing so or indicating a loose use of "correct pattern". In any event, the man said a lot of far far more important things.

^^^ Whosai? Pastor Joagbaje has picked race (as usual) long long long time ago!

We are just hoping some others will perhaps come and chip in with their views and observations.

Going through the Assemblies of God website, I realise now that they also produced the rather good document in the link below from as far back as 1980!

http://ag.org/top/beliefs/position_papers/pp_downloads/pp_4183_confession.pdf

I'm honestly really interested to see what CE members and/or Oyakhilome followers think of this here teaching.

The traditional doctrine of older style (old school) Pentecostal churches like the Assemblies of God and Deeper Life (for example) contradict the teachings of the WoF movement. In fact, I remember that in the 90s (or maybe slightly later) the AoG in America produced a document denouncing WoF doctrine.

Unfortunately, due to a number of factors including the ubiquity and pervasiveness of WoF doctrine on "Christian" television, herd mentality, overpowering aspiration and/or even greed, some elements of WoF doctrine have seeped through into many older style churches in Nigeria even including those that are not Pentecostal. Some countries. like the UK, are more resistant for various reasons and the older style churches have largely kept WoF doctrine out ----- but it is always threatening and there is continued necessity for alertness.

What i'm about to say may not be obvious ---- but one of the key ways to lead people into a realisation of the falsehood of the "vomit of satan" (to borrow someone else's words elsewhere) known as the prosperity "gospel" is to demonstrate the fraud of the modern teaching of "tithes" and "tithing".

A key anchor of the satanic prosperity "gospel" is that one of the keys to becoming wealthy is by "tithing"; if you can show people that "tithing" teaching in the prosperity "gospel" context especially is all fraud, then it is reasonable to expect a person who realises the fraud to start questioning the truthfulness of the whole prosperity "gospel".

And that is why some of us will never tire of challenging the tithing fraud ----- whether taught as compulsory or as "voluntary" which is not truly voluntary.

Joagbaje:
Ask him Oo.

You know I know where the bodies are buried and it won't take me that long to get the quotes out if I could be bothered. 

Just a couple of tasters:

"James was a baby Christian"; he had faulty doctrine; he was on milk; whereas you and Oyaks are on "strong meat"

James shouldn't have been martyred if he and the other apostles and early Christians had the revelation that you and Oyaks have.

Only two apostles (Paul and John) had indepth "revelation" of Jesus' treaching; all the others didn't -- whereas you and Oyaks do obviously.

Paul was wrong not to support the fraud, your type of fraud, of fleecing the flock.

The writer of the book of Matthew was wrong to write "kingdom of heaven"

Ati bẹẹ bẹẹ lọ! 

Amusing read anyway!

So why is no CE member or Oyakhilome follower saying anything? (To paraphrase Joagbaje)

Do you agree with Oyakhilome that those who believe that Jesus' healing power would heal everybody are "spiritually unlearned"?

ogajim:
You all can forget about Pastor JoAgbeje showing up anymore on this thread because each and every time he displays his PHONY Christian side and folks pick up on it, he simply abandon the thread and take his "game" to another thread.

Thanks to Enigma for your due diligence to show that Zac Poonen is even more qualified than Joe's big boss , little surprise that he is so DEFENSIVE.

My brother, only God can deliver Joagbaje; of course reasonable people will see the credentials of Poonen and know where to place him.

The problem is that it will not be enough for Joagbaje: remember it is the same Joagbaje who has said he and Oyakhilome have "revelation knowledge" superior to the biblical writings (gospels and epistles), in the end, of all the apostles including the apostle Paul that he praises above others!