₦airaland Forum

Onlytruth:
I said EUROPE not specific countries.

Historically, there is just one European country that started the whole thing: GREEKS. And they even copied everything down to mathematics and 12 gods from Egypt. Others merely copied from them.

Thank you!

Every single European nation copied the Greeks. That is their source. Their philosophy, culture and language in some ways were influenced by the Greeks.

And the Greeks copied the Ancient Egyptians and the Ancient people of Mesopotamia.

sage:
Have you ever seen people in Chechnya claim Britain or Italy before? Have you seen Indians claiming China's civilization before even though they are all Asians?

Do the British and French not claim Ancient Rome and Greece as their classical civilizations? Even the Russians claim they are an extension of the Old Roman Empire through their contact with the Byzantine Empire.

Indians have their own ancient civilization and China is ancient as well.

So why can't African societies claim Ancient Egypt as our classical civilization. Since it is now providing inspiration for Africans around the continent.

gadogado:
Mende script was devised by Mohammed Turay (born ca. 1850), an Islamic scholar, at a town called Maka (Barri Chiefdom, southern Sierra Leone). One of Turay's Koranic students was a young man named Kisimi Kamara. Kamara was the grandson of Turay's sister. Kamara also married Turay's daughter, Mariama. Turay devised a form of writing called 'Mende Abajada' (meaning 'Mende alphabet'), which was inspired in part by the Arabic abjad and in part by the Vai syllabary.

Dude, something that came up less than a hundered years ago does not count! period!!

So only one scripts you have a problem with? I gave you the others. So what can you say about and I also provided another one. And Nsibidi  and Adinkra is old as well. I refuted you. End of discussion concerning writing scripts.

And I know a good amount about Nsibidi as well. My Aro ancestors used it and my grandfather was well versed in it as well.

What African would in his right mind would name his son "Primate?" That is a recipe for diaster. 

Waste of money o! Of all the Igbo babes this Yoruba man could have got, he picked her. WOW! Talk about bad taste. This is one Igbo girl anyone can have, even the oyibos.

More African Writing Scripts!

Alphabetic Writing Script
- Bassa Script amongst the Bassa people of Liberia.
http://www.uniboa.org/bassalanguage.html

I hope that shuts up gadogado [/b]and [b]sage. I refuted them up and down this thread. It is not even funny anymore.

Saying that Africans did not have writing systems. People really need to learn the history of the continent.

sage:
The only African societies that actually wrote I thought were the North East and the ones  in Ethiopia who always had contact with the Middle East

I might be wrong though

The same goes for you. 

You are wrong! Let me give you some examples of African writing systems.

- Adinkra [/b]symbols found in Ghana amongst the Akan people
- The [b]Mende Script. . . Exmples found here http://www.library.cornell.edu/africana/Writing_Systems/Mende.html
- Nsibidi [/b]in Eastern Nigeria amongst the Igbo and Ibibio.
- [b]Shumom [/b]in Cameroon
- [b]Vai [/b]and modern day Liberia

Now what are you saying that Africans did not having a writing system? Like I told you before, learn African history before you make erroneous statements.

[b]So will someone refute me if they can?

Onlytruth:
As long as Africa is ONE continues land space (not islands in the ocean), no part of Africa can be divorced from the achievement of the other.

I even provided him with information of other writing scripts that can be found in "sub-saharan Africa." The Mende had their own writing script before Islam even penetrated into their territory.

gadogado:
Modern day English is based on Sanskrit alphabets not ancient egyptian hieroglyphics, plus why are all the civilizations in "Africa" that created writing systems all in the the extreme east, Egypt and Ethiopia both of whom have heavy semitic/caucasian admixture. Even the berbers who are indigenous to North Africa but are caucasian have their own self developed writing system. The only set of people in Africa that didn't create a writing system are the ones that are in the heart of africa and unmixed with whites etc. I want someone to give me an answer, west africa, central africa and southern africa have no writing sytems of their own, only extreme north (Mediterranean admixture) and East Africans (semitic admixture) look at a map and conclude the proximity of these groups with our reading and writing African brothers.  The obasanjo looking African has always been starkly illiterate

You are wrong!  Let me give you some examples of African writing systems.

- Adinkra [/b]symbols found in Ghana amongst the Akan people
- The [b]Mende Script. . . Exmples found here http://www.library.cornell.edu/africana/Writing_Systems/Mende.html
- [b]Nsibidi [/b]in Eastern Nigeria amongst the Igbo and Ibibio
- [b]Shumom [/b]in Cameroon
- [b]Vai [/b]and modern day Liberia

Now what are you saying that Africans did not having a writing system? Like I told you before, learn African history before you make erroneous statements.

ChinenyeN:
Thank you, Katsumoto for making that distinction, but I'd like to state something about that second point of your post (Africa lagging behind). It is not necessarily directed at you though. It's for the general topic. I'm just using your second point as a foundation for my post. As I stated before, (and as I am stating again), this topic of Africa lagging behind is not a matter of intelligence capacity. It apparently is not, because when Europeans came, and colonized Africa, and 'introduced' literacy and other things, Africans caught on rather quickly (for a group of people who, according to some, lacked the intelligence capacity). In fact, Africans caught on so quickly, that we [Africans] are apparently here today, making use of these sophisticated technological advancements (computers and the internet) to discuss how unintelligent we are. We are also apparently, attending schools in the U.S. and Europe, and outdoing Europeans, academically (proving our literacy capacity). If we truly are/were that sub-par, then I don't see any reason why we should be accomplishing these feats of apparent intelligence.

Which brings me to the point I state earlier; diffusion of ideas. [At the risk of repeating myself] diffusion is what allowed for the kind of technological advancement we currently witness today. In sub-Sahara Africa, the geography presented a logistics problem for [cultural] diffusion [of ideas], relative to Europe which has a more plains-like geography. As a matter of fact, many sub-Sahara African societies lived in relative isolation to one another, because of this (consider the intense diversity existent in Nigeria alone, not to even talk of Africa as a whole). This is not to say that diffusion wasn't occurring amongst us. It was, but at a rather slow rate. Colonialism though, 'hyper-jumped' the system. Because of colonialism, we no longer had to wait the centuries that Europe and Asia waited, in order to 'evolve' those ideas. Instead, all the diffusion came at once. Now that it is here though, it is up to us to utilize the diffusion to our own advantages. It is at this point, that this topic of discussion blends into the first point that Katsumoto made (the separate argument as to whether or not slavery and colonialism left us worse off).

Long story short, this topic of Africa lagging behind is not an issue of 'lacking intelligence capacity', or 'sub-par intelligence levels'.

Thank you for your post. Africa was simply at a different evolution state, than Asia and Africa due to our geography. And thank you for brining up how Africans at universities in the United States and Europe are outperforming domestic students. This is a fact. What does this say about our intelligence and our commitment to education? I do not believe in the notion, that Africans are not as intelligent as Europeans or Asians, because the fact in the matter is that on a level playing field, we Africans perform just as well or better as whites and Asians.

Why do we recycle these old ladies who led us no where?

Why not allow someone who is much more younger and someone who is went to an Ivy-leave institution?

These Bantus need to realize, that it was MY people who were there ancestors. If it wasn't for MY people, they would have never made it to South Africa.

They are the descendants of the people of Eastern Nigeria and Western Cameroon.

sage:
Nobody said they were not Africans

Africans could refer to people of different skin colours including people with "White" skin like the Berbers of North Africa.

And Just because a person has dark skin does not mean that they are "our people" or related to Nigerians in any way possible


The issue here i dealing with what is considered "sub-saharan" Africa and how contact with the west affected it


The continent is suffering from self-inflicted woes all around

Hiding under the cloak of Egypt is so funny it is sad and is a complete waste of time for us

Why do you act like Europe are one people then? Using your logic. The Polish and the Russians were just as barbaric as Africans. Go to certains areas of the Balkans and Eastern Europe.

But they all for a fact look to Ancient Greece and Ancient Rome for inspiration.

Why can't Africans look to Ancient Egypt for inspiration? It was Africa's classical civilization and we must reclaim that history, before the Arab invaders claim it.

Aigbofa:
What do you call the material (papyrus) on which most Ancient scripts were written?

Another Gbam!

Aigbofa:
Mr Sage, I bet you need a little more knowledge before you can claim that title. Nothing happens in isolation. All human achievements, both current and ancient is based on one before it.
You mentioned computers, yet the Chinese were using abacus long before the Bill gates of this world. The ancient Egyptians ( Yes Africans) you are trying very hard to discount, were already performing surgeries, long before Europeans knew anything about that.
Yes, ancient Egyptians were Africans, no matter how you look at it.

Gbam! When we are not at war with each other, I agree with most of the things you said.

Ancient Egyptians indeed were Africans, and no European or African can take that away.

Egyptians were creating monolithic pyramids and temples while Europeans were painting their faces blue, running around naked and killing each other.

Some people say that the Greeks who were barbaric at one time, stole knowledge from Ancient Egypt.

sage:
Japan was industralized before Europe

Asians could read and write before Europeans. They pioneered a literate and complex society from time immemorial before Europeans could. They invented paper, pen etc

Europeans copy from them and they copy from Europeans

That is why Asian ability or invention can never be questioned. Everybody in the world agree that they are an ingenious people. Their inventions has never been in doubt

Eurasian conflicts also helped both societies develop


African societies were simple societies. For a society to become complex literacy had to precede it.


Looking at more advanced societies and copying them is always a good thing. Things like the stopping of killing of twins, albinos, human sacrifices, and the introduction of formal schools etc were good for our society and introduced to us because we copied a more complex and advanced society

The European ingenuity progressed, because they were always at war with themselves. Africans did not have the worry about the widespread wars, that Europe had went through for over a thousand years. We all know technology progresses on the main part, because of war. Many African groups were not warlike, nor did many of our people want to subject others.

I am not saying that there were not wars on the continent, but we did not practice that level of bloodshed to spur those type of technology advancement. The only exception is Egypt, Nubia, Axum and Kush. Since these people were at war with themselves and other non-African groups such as the Babylonians, Persians and Greeks and Romans, their technology advanced.

Africans should not be said that we do not have the capability, but we had no need, because our continent provided everything for us.

I remember a European colleague of mines once said, of course Africans did not progress like Europe, because "you all had nice temperature, bountiful food, and a lot of land and resources. Why would anyone want to leave Africa? Europe on the other hand was cold, sparse land and resources, people never settled and was always killing each other. Europeans had to take out their agression on outsiders or that we would killed ourselves. That is why "we" went to the Middle East through the crusades, Africa and Asia."

All I can do is hold my head in shame. The Nigerian name has been soiled around the world. It is a disgrace.

I wish [b]Biafra [/b]had succeeded.

That would save me of the embarrassment of being called a Nigerian.

sage:
@Ezeuche


Africans should look towards every part of the world including Europe and Asia to make the continent better. We are lagging behind and all these faux arguments about Egypt is not going to help Nigeria at all. Nigerians dont share anything in common with ancient Egypt and as far as I care "blue" men could have built Egypt.

We can spend all our time convincing ourselves that ancient yoruba land was developed and great or ancient Benin was great or that it was just as developed as Europe



None of that is going to change reality on the ground.

All modern day inventions have eluded the continent and we are behind everybody else

All this Egypt talk is a waste of time

I have a question for you. What is development? Explain development. . . And do not look through a European lens, because Asia is starting to surpass Europe. Japan already surpasses Europe and South Korea and China is not far behind.

I will not look to other parts of the world, to make our countries better, because we have tried that. We need to look inward. And create our own unique development. India is doing the same.

Na wa o! After reading those comments, I shall say that I am a Biafran. 

Let us took a look at some artworks from Ife. (Here is an Igbo man defending Yorubaland's classical civilization)

asha 80:
I think there is a differnece in maturity in thinking and africans are a bit too emotional

Asha my brother. It is never good to speak in such sweeping generalizations. No one man is the same.

Let us take a look at Ancient Benin.

asha 80:
Same abilities to do what exactly?

To create structures, cultures, languages etc. There is no difference between an African's brain or an European brain.

bgees:
I don't hate myself in anyway and I'm very proud to be African.  But Europe was not just about Rome and Greece , they were many more smaller empires and civilizations at that time. And the talk of Ethiopia, I agree with that. But again that is just a part of Africa. Far away from Egypt Sudan and  Ethiopia, what were other  African regions like? In the 18th century South Africa, the Zulu kings  for instance were still living in sheds and running around half unclothed, the bushmen of the Kalahari were still exposing their asses and sleeping under the stars.

Most of Europe traces its foundations to Ancient Greece and Rome. Even their languages such as English, French, Spanish and in some ways, German was influenced by Greek and Latin. Have you heard of the Romance Languages which is influenced by Latin. And let us not forget that their philosophy was influenced by Greek philosophers such as Socrates and Plato. Interesting enough, Plato and Socrates were influenced by the Ancient Egyptians.

There is nothing wrong for Africans looking for inspiration from Ancient Egypt, because it is Africa's classical civilization just like Nubia, Axum [/b]and [b]Kush.

You mention the Zulu and the Bushmen, but let us not forget Great Zimbabwe that created city structures that the Europeans attributed to ALIENS! Even the Ife bronze statues was attributed to the "lost" continent of Atlantis, because they believed Africans were able to create such things.

sage:
@peoples

Part of the problem with ancient Egypt is that the terms "black" "white" etc are actually rubbish terms that was just introduced recently to us. We are trying to describe an ancient civilization by using a modern day reference like the idea of "black" people

Ancient Egypt looks to have had people of all different colours

From very light/'white" looking people to browner people

This Egypt talk is a waste of time for a Nigerian. The early Egyptians having nothing in common with us at all. Saying they are "black" is meaningless too because their society was shaped very differently

https://www.catchpenny.org/images/seti1a.gif

You know your picture has been described.

Let us go from the Left to the Right.

The first person is a Libyan, next is a Nubian, the light person is from Mesopotamian [/b]and the final one is an [b]Egyptian [/b]and he is brown.

But [b]RACE [/b]is a [b]social construct. There is no differences in the human mind. We are all blessed with the same abilities.

gadogado:
@ bold=massive lie. I think you're confused, wasn't Mansa Musa a muslim? didnt he read and write arabic? wasn't his monarchy based of the borrowed arab-emirate system and weren't arabs the ones buying the gold from him? You're talking about a fully colonized and arabized king who probably loved arabs to no end. Not an indigenous, self created political or social order, were it not for the arabs, africans wouldn't really know what to do with gold. Africans were exchanging gold for salt with arabs back in the day.

Mansa Musa was an AFRICAN who was a Muslim. So what? Ethiopians were Christian and they were Africans. And his kingdom was not based on anything. Africans had kingdoms before the Arabs who were wandering around in the deserts of Saudi Arab in different tribes.  He believed in the religion. Does that discount the fact that he was African? You know he was only a nominal Muslim compared to the Arabs.

What do you mean we would not know what to do with gold? Gold was used for art and other crafts. We were making gold jewelry so we did not need anyone else what to do with this precious mineral. And we were not exchanging Gold for Salt. lol We were exporting salt. Timbuktu which was an African town was the main exporter of salt to Europe and the Arab world since salt was worth its weight in Gold. That is why Timbuktu gained power.

bgees:
there are other wall paintings from Egypt that depicted fair skinned people.

Proof? Because I gave you proof. And could they have been portraying other Mesopotamian people such as the Persians, Hittites and Assyrians?

And let us forget how the Greek traveller, Herodotus described the Ancient Egyptians as brown [/b]with [b]WOOLY HAIR.

You all are making it too easy. I have refuted you all!

bgees:
Lets compare the achievements of ancient  Greece , Rome,Persia and other smaller empires,the structures they built like the  coliseum ,the palaces , the castles and compare those to what Black Africa looked like that time. You will discover that we were living in the dark  and we never matched the white man. And don't even mention ancient Egypt , it was only a small part of the continent and its population was not completely black.

I unlike most people here will not let baseless Afrocentrism get the better of me. Black Africa never matched the civilizations of Ancient Europe. Our continent is rich but we never developed ourselves and we paid the price by letting the white man develop or rob us in the process.

WHY DO SOME PEOPLE LIKE YOURSELF HAVE SELF-HATE?

Do you think all of Europe was advanced? When Rome crumbled, Europe went into a Dark Age where life was short and brutish. Barbarian white people were running around, while in Africa, our kingdoms were rising. This is not Afrocentrism, this is history. Africans need to stop allowing whites to dictate our history and reclaim our history for ourselves.

What do you call Ethiopia? They had a literary script, monuments, and a rich culture.

What color do these Ancient Egyptians look like?

They do not look white. 

sage:
You need to read up on North African indigenous peoples and their pre-historic populations.

Even today many North African countries still have Arabs as minorities

Not everybody in North Africa is Arab

You are the one who is acting like North Africa is fully Arab. Saying that they are not Africans. The BERBERS and the TUAREG are not ARAB! They are indigenous Africans! Do they count mehn?

Who you think created the pyramids? Arabs, Europeans, ALIENS?

sage:
Africans were killing Africans before the Europeans came. In Nigeria, Fulanis and Yorubas were fighting each other to the finish before the British arrived.


And all these Africa is resorce rich thing. What resources were we using before the Europeans came.

Petroluem? Bauxite? Diamonds? Tin? Bitumen?

Did we even have a name for those resources? Did we know how to extract them? how to refine them?

What exactly were we doing with it before  Europeans arrived?

Yes, Africans were killing each other before the Europeans came, but not to this extent.

Remember that it was Europeans, not Asians or Africans who started TWO world wars which killed millions of their people. The European only knows how to destroy, not create.

Have you heard of Mansa Musa? Who at the time was the richest man in the world, and when he went on his pilgrimage to Mecca, the gold he brought with him changed the course of European and Arab history. And guess what? He was an African. And guess another thing, Africans were mining gold. Refining bronze. And some were even creating Iron tools.

Mehn you need to pick up a book and learn African history. A continent such as vast as Africa, cannot be simplistically explained!

gadogado:
Funny how those pre colonial africans created those pieces of art but could not "label" them if their lives depended on it.

What do you mean label them? We know who created these works of art. It was craftsmen from these societies. These unknown craftsmen did not do it for name recognition, they did it for their people which is truly a treasure.