EzeUche22:

WHY DO SOME PEOPLE LIKE YOURSELF HAVE SELF-HATE?

Do you think all of Europe was advanced? When Rome crumbled, Europe went into a Dark Age where life was short and brutish. Barbarian white people were running around, while in Africa, our kingdoms were rising. This is not Afrocentrism, this is history. Africans need to stop allowing whites to dictate our history and reclaim our history for ourselves.

What do you call Ethiopia? They had a literary script, monuments, and a rich culture.

I don't hate myself in anyway and I'm very proud to be African.  But Europe was not just about Rome and Greece , they were many more smaller empires and civilizations at that time. And the talk of Ethiopia, I agree with that. But again that is just a part of Africa. Far away from Egypt Sudan and  Ethiopia, what were other  African regions like? In the 18th century South Africa, the Zulu kings  for instance were still living in sheds and running around half naked, the bushmen of the Kalahari were still exposing their asses and sleeping under the stars.

gadogado:

@ bold=massive lie. I think you're confused, wasn't Mansa Musa a muslim? didnt he read and write arabic? wasn't his monarchy based of the borrowed arab-emirate system and weren't arabs the ones buying the gold from him? You're talking about a fully colonized and arabized king who probably loved arabs to no end. Not an indigenous, self created political or social order, were it not for the arabs, africans wouldn't really know what to do with gold. Africans were exchanging gold for salt with arabs back in the day.

Mansa Musa was an AFRICAN who was a Muslim. So what? Ethiopians were Christian and they were Africans. And his kingdom was not based on anything. Africans had kingdoms before the Arabs who were wandering around in the deserts of Saudi Arab in different tribes.  He believed in the religion. Does that discount the fact that he was African? You know he was only a nominal Muslim compared to the Arabs.

What do you mean we would not know what to do with gold? Gold was used for art and other crafts. We were making gold jewelry so we did not need anyone else what to do with this precious mineral. And we were not exchanging Gold for Salt. lol We were exporting salt. Timbuktu which was an African town was the main exporter of salt to Europe and the Arab world since salt was worth its weight in Gold. That is why Timbuktu gained power.

sage:

talking about Egypt is a waste of time for all Nigerians involved

talking about Egypt is a waste of time for almost all of Africa.

sage:

@peoples

Part of the problem with ancient Egypt is that the terms "black" "white" etc are actually rubbish terms that was just introduced recently to us. We are trying to describe an ancient civilization by using a modern day reference like the idea of "black" people

Ancient Egypt looks to have had people of all different colours

From very light/'white" looking people to browner people

This Egypt talk is a waste of time for a Nigerian. The early Egyptians having nothing in common with us at all. Saying they are "black" is meaningless too because their society was shaped very differently

You know your picture has been described.

Let us go from the Left to the Right.

The first person is a Libyan, next is a Nubian, the light person is from Mesopotamian [/b]and the final one is an [b]Egyptian [/b]and he is brown.

But [b]RACE [/b]is a [b]social construct. There is no differences in the human mind. We are all blessed with the same abilities.

Katsumoto:

A lot of people are mixing up two different arguments here

The first argument is whether Africans are worse off with slavery and colonisation and the answer to that is an emphatic yes. Arguing that we are better off because we can read and write is too simplistic because there are other more important factors such as standard and condition of living as well as hunger.

The second argument is about whether African was lagging behind other continents when the Europeans arrived and again, another emphatic yes. Whilst there were progressive societies in Africa, the lack of ambition and ability to take appropriate risks ensured that Africans of that era and this era were not and are not innovative. The attitude of the Europeans from the Byzantine era ensured that Kingdoms were created and enlarged as more dominant dynasties sought expansion. Having to either defend your society or wanting to subjugate other kingdoms led to serious innovation and competitiveness with a consequent advancement of European societies.

As an example of risk taking, read about Moctezuma and Hernan Cortes, the Spanish conqueror who conquered the Aztec empire. On arriving in Mayan territory, he burnt his ships having had his charter revoked earlier.

I agree with you for the most part

Literacy though is invaluable. An illiterate would forever be disadvantaged compared to a literate person

EzeUche22:

You know your picture has been described.

Let us go from the Left to the Right.

The first person is a Libyan, next is a Nubian, the light person is from Mesopotamian [/b]and the final one is an [b]Egyptian [/b]and he is brown.

But [b]RACE [/b]is a [b]social construct. There is no differences in the human mind. We are all blessed with the same abilities.

Same abilities to do what exactly?

gadogado:

Funny how those pre colonial africans created those pieces of art but could not "label" them if their lives depended on it.

You really have a lot of nerves coming here with your "Shuwa Arab" behind to insult Africans.  

I watched the Friedman video, and all I will say is that the man's arguments are full of half truths and "clever" lies.

For instance, he claims that only "parts of Africa" had figured out the wheel by 19th century. My question is this: When did those parts of Africa "figure it out" for the first time? He didn't say. It is possible that the wheel thrived in Africa far before it did in Europe. I know it did in Egypt, and Egypt is in Africa not Europe.
The fact that all parts of Africa didn't ride on it should not deny Africa fair credit.

My take on this whole thing, however, is that no race or region ever thrived on its own inventions alone, this is much more evident today. Europe basically copied EVERYTHING from Africa and Asia before it emerged as a world leader.
Today, the Asians are doing the same thing: copying and exceeding the technologies of the west. All Asian countries are doing this.

I know for sure that a day will come when Africans will "re-copy" back technologies from other parts of the world to create a world beating system.
I even suspect that African leadership of this world is coming, and it will last longest.  

bgees:

I don't hate myself in anyway and I'm very proud to be African.  But Europe was not just about Rome and Greece , they were many more smaller empires and civilizations at that time. And the talk of Ethiopia, I agree with that. But again that is just a part of Africa. Far away from Egypt Sudan and  Ethiopia, what were other  African regions like? In the 18th century South Africa, the Zulu kings  for instance were still living in sheds and running around half unclothed, the bushmen of the Kalahari were still exposing their asses and sleeping under the stars.

Most of Europe traces its foundations to Ancient Greece and Rome. Even their languages such as English, French, Spanish and in some ways, German was influenced by Greek and Latin. Have you heard of the Romance Languages which is influenced by Latin. And let us not forget that their philosophy was influenced by Greek philosophers such as Socrates and Plato. Interesting enough, Plato and Socrates were influenced by the Ancient Egyptians.

There is nothing wrong for Africans looking for inspiration from Ancient Egypt, because it is Africa's classical civilization just like Nubia, Axum [/b]and [b]Kush.

You mention the Zulu and the Bushmen, but let us not forget Great Zimbabwe that created city structures that the Europeans attributed to ALIENS! Even the Ife bronze statues was attributed to the "lost" continent of Atlantis, because they believed Africans were able to create such things.

asha 80:

Same abilities to do what exactly?

To create structures, cultures, languages etc. There is no difference between an African's brain or an European brain.

Let us take a look at Ancient Benin.

EzeUche22:

To create structures, cultures, languages etc. There is no difference between an African's brain or an European brain.

I think there is a differnece in maturity in thinking and africans are a bit too emotional

asha 80:

I think there is a differnece in maturity in thinking and africans are a bit too emotional

Asha my brother. It is never good to speak in such sweeping generalizations. No one man is the same.

Let us took a look at some artworks from Ife. (Here is an Igbo man defending Yorubaland's classical civilization)

@Ezeuche


Africans should look towards every part of the world including Europe and Asia to make the continent better. We are lagging behind and all these faux arguments about Egypt is not going to help Nigeria at all. Nigerians dont share anything in common with ancient Egypt and as far as I care "blue" men could have built Egypt.

We can spend all our time convincing ourselves that ancient yoruba land was developed and great or ancient Benin was great or that it was just as developed as Europe



None of that is going to change reality on the ground.

All modern day inventions have eluded the continent and we are behind everybody else

All this Egypt talk is a waste of time

Africas problems have NOTHING to do with skin colour


If i might ask


Did the white Berbers of North Africa have a written language?

sage:

@Ezeuche


Africans should look towards every part of the world including Europe and Asia to make the continent better. We are lagging behind and all these faux arguments about Egypt is not going to help Nigeria at all. Nigerians dont share anything in common with ancient Egypt and as far as I care "blue" men could have built Egypt.

We can spend all our time convincing ourselves that ancient yoruba land was developed and great or ancient Benin was great or that it was just as developed as Europe



None of that is going to change reality on the ground.

All modern day inventions have eluded the continent and we are behind everybody else

All this Egypt talk is a waste of time

I have a question for you. What is development? Explain development. . . And do not look through a European lens, because Asia is starting to surpass Europe. Japan already surpasses Europe and South Korea and China is not far behind.

I will not look to other parts of the world, to make our countries better, because we have tried that. We need to look inward. And create our own unique development. India is doing the same.

Japan was industralized before Europe

Asians could read and write before Europeans. They pioneered a literate and complex society from time immemorial before Europeans could. They invented paper, pen etc

Europeans copy from them and they copy from Europeans

That is why Asian ability or invention can never be questioned. Everybody in the world agree that they are an ingenious people. Their inventions has never been in doubt

Eurasian conflicts also helped both societies develop


African societies were simple societies. For a society to become complex literacy had to precede it.


Looking at more advanced societies and copying them is always a good thing. Things like the stopping of killing of twins, albinos, human sacrifices, and the introduction of formal schools etc were good for our society and introduced to us because we copied a more complex and advanced society

sage:

talking about Egypt is a waste of time for all Nigerians involved

Mr Sage, I bet you need a little more knowledge before you can claim that title. Nothing happens in isolation. All human achievements, both current and ancient is based on one before it.
You mentioned computers, yet the Chinese were using abacus long before the Bill gates of this world. The ancient Egyptians ( Yes Africans) you are trying very hard to discount, were already performing surgeries, long before Europeans knew anything about that.
Yes, ancient Egyptians were Africans, no matter how you look at it.

sage:

Japan was industralized before Europe

Asians could read and write before Europeans. They pioneered a literate and complex society from time immemorial before Europeans could. They invented paper, pen etc

Europeans copy from them and they copy from Europeans

That is why Asian ability or invention can never be questioned. Everybody in the world agree that they are an ingenious people. Their inventions has never been in doubt

Eurasian conflicts also helped both societies develop


African societies were simple societies. For a society to become complex literacy had to precede it.


Looking at more advanced societies and copying them is always a good thing. Things like the stopping of killing of twins, albinos, human sacrifices, and the introduction of formal schools etc were good for our society and introduced to us because we copied a more complex and advanced society

The European ingenuity progressed, because they were always at war with themselves. Africans did not have the worry about the widespread wars, that Europe had went through for over a thousand years. We all know technology progresses on the main part, because of war. Many African groups were not warlike, nor did many of our people want to subject others.

I am not saying that there were not wars on the continent, but we did not practice that level of bloodshed to spur those type of technology advancement. The only exception is Egypt, Nubia, Axum and Kush. Since these people were at war with themselves and other non-African groups such as the Babylonians, Persians and Greeks and Romans, their technology advanced.

Africans should not be said that we do not have the capability, but we had no need, because our continent provided everything for us.

I remember a European colleague of mines once said, of course Africans did not progress like Europe, because "you all had nice temperature, bountiful food, and a lot of land and resources. Why would anyone want to leave Africa? Europe on the other hand was cold, sparse land and resources, people never settled and was always killing each other. Europeans had to take out their agression on outsiders or that we would killed ourselves. That is why "we" went to the Middle East through the crusades, Africa and Asia."

Aigbofa:


Mr Sage, I bet you need a little more knowledge before you can claim that title. Nothing happens in isolation. All human achievements, both current and ancient is based on one before it.
You mentioned computers, yet the Chinese were using abacus long before the Bill gates of this world. The ancient Egyptians ( Yes Africans) you are trying very hard to discount, were already performing surgeries, long before Europeans knew anything about that.
Yes, ancient Egyptians were Africans, no matter how you look at it.

Gbam! When we are not at war with each other, I agree with most of the things you said.

Ancient Egyptians indeed were Africans, and no European or African can take that away.

Egyptians were creating monolithic pyramids and temples while Europeans were painting their faces blue, running around naked and killing each other.

Some people say that the Greeks who were barbaric at one time, stole knowledge from Ancient Egypt.

Aigbofa:


Mr Sage, I bet you need a little more knowledge before you can claim that title. Nothing happens in isolation. All human achievements, both current and ancient is based on one before it.
You mentioned computers, yet the Chinese were using abacus long before the Bill gates of this world. The ancient Egyptians ( Yes Africans) you are trying very hard to discount, were already performing surgeries, long before Europeans knew anything about that.
Yes, ancient Egyptians were Africans, no matter how you look at it.

Nobody said they were not Africans

Africans could refer to people of different skin colours including people with "White" skin like the Berbers of North Africa.

And Just because a person has dark skin does not mean that they are "our people" or related to Nigerians in any way possible


The issue here i dealing with what is considered "sub-saharan" Africa and how contact with the west affected it


The continent is suffering from self-inflicted woes all around

Hiding under the cloak of Egypt is so funny it is sad and is a complete waste of time for us

sage:




They invented paper, pen etc

Europeans copy from them and they copy from Europeans

What do you call the material (papyrus) on which most Ancient scripts were written?

Aigbofa:




What do you call the material (papyrus) on which most Ancient scripts were written?

Another Gbam!

sage:

Nobody said they were not Africans

Africans could refer to people of different skin colours including people with "White" skin like the Berbers of North Africa.

And Just because a person has dark skin does not mean that they are "our people" or related to Nigerians in any way possible


The issue here i dealing with what is considered "sub-saharan" Africa and how contact with the west affected it


The continent is suffering from self-inflicted woes all around

Hiding under the cloak of Egypt is so funny it is sad and is a complete waste of time for us

Why do you act like Europe are one people then? Using your logic. The Polish and the Russians were just as barbaric as Africans. Go to certains areas of the Balkans and Eastern Europe.

But they all for a fact look to Ancient Greece and Ancient Rome for inspiration.

Why can't Africans look to Ancient Egypt for inspiration? It was Africa's classical civilization and we must reclaim that history, before the Arab invaders claim it.

@EzeUche

The reality is that there is a lot of truth in what you said about why Europeans progressed and we didnt but at the end of the day every society is judged on how much it has developed not what caused it.

So it is immaterial to us that wars caused Europe to develop and if they stole their knowledge from others and made it better


Nobody stopped us from stealing knowledge from the Chinese. Nobody stopped s from developing greater technology with whatever level of conflict that we had.

Its is not anybody's fault. It is ours and ours alone.

sage:

Nobody said they were not Africans

Africans could refer to people of different skin colours including people with "White" skin like the Berbers of North Africa.

And Just because a person has dark skin does not mean that they are "our people" or related to Nigerians in any way possible


The issue here i dealing with what is considered "sub-saharan" Africa and how contact with the west affected it


The continent is suffering from self-inflicted woes all around

Hiding under the cloak of Egypt is so funny it is sad and is a complete waste of time for us

Nobody is hiding under anything. You have to put everything in the proper context, because nothing happens in isolation. We can debate from here to eternity about what could have happened if we didn't have any contact with Europeans, it's all hypothetical. But we can debate on verifiable facts.

Aigbofa:


Nobody is hiding under anything. You have to put everything in the proper context, because nothing happens in isolation. We can debate from here to eternity about what could have happened if we didn't have any contact with Europeans, it's all hypothetical. But we can debate on verifiable facts.

The facts remain that for me or you to express out thoughts in either English or our local language, we HAVE to use letters Europeans introduced to us

EzeUche22:

Why do you act like Europe are one people then? Using your logic. The Polish and the Russians were just as barbaric as Africans. Go to certains areas of the Balkans and Eastern Europe.

But they all for a fact look to Ancient Greece and Ancient Rome for inspiration.

Why can't Africans look to Ancient Egypt for inspiration? It was Africa's classical civilization and we must reclaim that history, before the Arab invaders claim it.

You are right.

Europeans are not one people either

Eastern Europe remains poorer than Western Europe and it might remain like that for a very long time


Africa is far far more diverse than Europe and includes people of various skin colours. The white skinned Berbers of North Africa are indigenous Africans too

Africas history is also different from that of Europe. Many African societies lived in isolation and have nothing in common with people living thousands of miles away

sage:

The facts remain that for me or you to express out thoughts in either English or our local language, we HAVE to use letters Europeans introduced to us

And tell me, who were the first people to write? Again it's between the Mesopotamians and Ancient Egyptians of course.
The Europeans gained a lot from Africa, it doesn't matter they improved on the knowledge gained and refused to give any credit to Africa. Afterall, they are the ones writting the history.

Guys

I just wanted to add that one of the biggest mis-representations of our continent is that we are similar people

We are not and not all people of the continent have dark skin

It is the reason why Ethiopians would have a writing system and their neighbours would not


We are different people with different histories so let us actually stop lumping the continent together

my people, let's stop deceiving ourselves. when it comes to human development, innovation, invention and general advancement, europeans are far, i say far far ahead of africans.
use any human development index, and ahead they'd still be.
this is based on veriable facts and not something conjured up by tales-telling grandfathers.

EzeUche22:

To create structures, cultures, languages etc. There is no difference between an African's brain or an European brain.

Only difference is the Africans seeming inability to create an indigenous writing system/script.