EzeUche22:

I think we are worse off. Just look at the artistic capabilities of Ife and Benin and now look at what their descendants can produce and weep!

While the Europeans were painting their faces blue and killing each other mercilessly, we were building cities, providing for our people and had a better value system.

I think we are far far far better off

For one I think all of us prefer to be literate than illiterate. Me and you are doing something our forefathers could not have done and had no concept of till the Europeans came and taght us how to write out our own thoughts.

I value western invention and civilization, one of which is the computer and the internet that we are currently using over any of the lifestyle of our forefathers

Beaf:

One of my gifts is a photographic memory. I recall an argument we had about Arabic inscriptions on the Naira. . . You claimed not to be black, but to be Shuwa Arab. All you are doing here is playing a racist game.

Perhaps your wifee didn't cook for you and locked you outside, so you want to take it out on black people. Na wa!
Shame on you and all racists.

Ok beaf, your ignorance is getting a little serious now! what and who is a shuwa arab. Shuwas are mostly people of mixed African and Arab descent, being shuwa doesnt change my nationality neither does it affect my desire to see my nation grow. There are many shuwas in the nigerian government. for example, abba aji is a shuwa man and he's Jonathan's liaison to the national assembly, the current minister of works father is 100% shuwa but can you say these people arent black?? look at a pic of Abba Aji, the man on the right

gadogado:

Ok beaf, your ignorance is getting a little serious now! what and who is a shuwa arab. Shuwas are mostly people of mixed African and Arab descent, being shuwa doesnt change my nationality neither does it affect my desire to see my nation grow. There are many shuwas in the nigerian government. for example, abba aji is a shuwa man and he's Jonathan's liaison to the national assembly, the current minister of works father is 100% shuwa but can you say these people arent black?? look at a pic of Abba Aji, the man on the right

Of course, folk like you will argue that the problem in Sudan is not between Arabs and "Africans". We see through all that.

sage:

You need to read about 100's of years of Muslim rule and mistreatment of many Europeans till the Europeans expelled them by force


While we cold not read or write Europe was conquering the next frontier. Electricity, steam engines, trains, the telegraph, telephones, airplanes etc

Non of these were we going to discover by ourselves

We could not even make ourselves literate for thousands of years and we had to borrow their letters to express our thoughts

My brother, the Muslim Moors only conquered Spain and the Ottoman Turks only made it as far to the Balkans. Western Europe was never colonized. France, Great Britain, Germany, Italy and Scandinavia was never conquered. They just fought amongst themselves.

What do you mean many of us could not read? Have you heard of the Arabic script that was able to write down our history from the Empire of Ghana, Mali, Songhay. And the Ethiopians [/b]had their own writing script as well. You cannot say that Africans were not literate when Arabic script and Ethiopian script was being used to write books and our history.

Look at the cities that were made in [b]Great Zimbabwe, Great Benin and even in Yorubaland. Africans were progressing from a different route.

Plus, the Europeans stole everything from the CHINESE [/b]AND THE [b]ARABS. The CHINESE were the most advanced people for CENTURIES!  And what about the Great Pyramids at Giza. They were created by Africans, not Arabs or Whites. They were black Africans. While the Europeans were painting their faces blue and creating Stonehenge, the Ancient Egyptians were creating monuments that were stand the test of time.

And let us not forget that Ethiopia was Christian before Europe ever became Christian. Learn Africa's history first, before you write erroneous statements.

sage:

Many Africans are incapable of self-criticism and are emotional about everything. That is a major reason why the continent remains underdeveloped


1  First of all Africa is a very diverse continent full of different people. Not all Africans even have dark skin colour (black) and not all Africans lived in similar societies.

2 We gained Literacy by coming in contact with the European civilization. Our society was never going to become a complex society without the Europeans introducing the concept of literacy to us.

3 Societies are judged by how complex they are. This is why nobody could deny Asian achievements. Nobody was going to respect a group of people who have no idea what it means to be literate and live in mud and tatch houses.

4 Illiteracy happened to be a bane on development. It has forever set the continent back. The only way to achieve recognition is to shape the present or future for the better

5 In the grand scheme of things the above video is irrelevant, and so are people who keep complaining about exploitation.



Before the Europeans came a lot of African societies could not practice Statistics, Geometry and Trignometry, Engineering in a written form etc. These are concepts that helped societies develop more complex structures and amazing construction.



In conclusion we are the architects of all our problems including the video above. When a society embraces illiteracy for generations and thousands of years, the society is inviting scorn on itself

And this makes me ask another question, for those saying that Africans are as intelligent as Europeans, How come there isn't a single group of Africans that developed their own writing system or script besides the Ethiopians (who distant themselves from being "African) and claim a semetic root. We couldn't develop a written form of communication at any point in time, i think this goes to say that we are in fact less intellectually endowed but when it comes to athletics, we're very much gifted. The black race might have been created for work and not thinking.

sage:

I think we are far far far better off

For one I think all of us prefer to be literate than illiterate. Me and you are doing something our forefathers could not have done and had no concept of till the Europeans came and taght us how to write out our own thoughts.

I value western invention and civilization, one of which is the computer and the internet that we are currently using over any of the lifestyle of our forefathers

How can you say that we are far better off? Look at how most of the countries they created in Africa are failing, because they created states that had no business being together. They did not care about the ethnic boundaries and kingdoms that made up the Congo. Why is DR Congo so big while Uganda, Burundi and Rwanda so small.

My forefathers may not have been "literate" in the sense of being able to write in English or speak English, but they were immersed in their cultures and had ancient morals that many of our people have lost. That is what I miss, I rather be steeped in my culture than be a literate in some foreign language at the expense of my culture.

Europeans messed up the world. They messed up Africa and plundered our wealth and continue to plunder our wealth. London, Paris, Amsterdam would never have looked like that if it wasn't for Africa's stolen wealth.

Look at what Africans were able to create prior to the European invasion and conquest!

And now look at what we create! Nothing!

EzeUche22:

My brother, the Muslim Moors only conquered Spain and the Ottoman Turks only made it as far to the Balkans. Western Europe was never colonized. France, Great Britain, Germany, Italy and Scandinavia was never conquered. They just fought amongst themselves.

What do you mean many of us could not read? Have you heard of the Arabic script that was able to write down our history from the Empire of Ghana, Mali, Songhay. And the Ethiopians had their own writing script as well. You cannot say that Africans were not literate when Arabic script and Ethiopian script was being used to write books and our history.

Look at the cities that were made in Zimbabwe, Great Benin and even in Yorubaland. Africans were progressing from a different route.

Plus, the Europeans stole everything from the CHINESE [/b]AND THE [b]ARABS. The CHINESE were the most advanced people for CENTURIES!  And what about the Great Pyramids at Giza. They were created by Africans, not Arabs or Whites. They were black Africans. While the Europeans were painting their faces blue and creating Stonehenge, the Ancient Egyptians were creating monuments that were stand the test of time.

And let us not forget that Ethiopia was Christian before Europe ever became Christian. Learn Africa's history first, before you write erroneous statements.

You proved my point (Most parts of Africa needed external influence in order to read or write)

Arabic was also introduced to to parts of Africa before those parts could read and write either.

Only parts of Ethiopia could develop literacy on their own


Forget the Egypt argument its a dead horse

It does not matter if Europeans stole from Chinese. What matters is that they engineered a way of life that became better than anything humans had ever seen before.

Nobody stopped Africans from stealing from Chinese people and pioneering the best way of life for humans. Constant complaining about others does not help us at all


Benn, Yorubaland etc were simple societies. How far where they going to get without literacy?

EzeUche22:

How can you say that we are far better off? Look at how most of the countries they created in Africa are failing, because they created states that had no business being together. They did not care about the ethnic boundaries and kingdoms that made up the Congo. Why is DR Congo so big while Uganda, Burundi and Rwanda so small.

My forefathers may not have been "literate" in the sense of being able to write in English or speak English, but they were immersed in their cultures and had ancient morals that many of our people have lost. That is what I miss, I rather be steeped in my culture than be a literate in some foreign language at the expense of my culture.

Europeans messed up the world. They messed up Africa and plundered our wealth and continue to plunder our wealth. London, Paris, Amsterdam would never have looked like that if it wasn't for Africa's stolen wealth.

Its not a question of English

They did not read or write Igbo either

EzeUche22:

My brother, the Muslim Moors only conquered Spain and the Ottoman Turks only made it as far to the Balkans. Western Europe was never colonized. France, Great Britain, Germany, Italy and Scandinavia was never conquered. They just fought amongst themselves.

What do you mean many of us could not read? Have you heard of the Arabic script that was able to write down our history from the Empire of Ghana, Mali, Songhay. And the Ethiopians [/b]had their own writing script as well. You cannot say that Africans were not literate when Arabic script and Ethiopian script was being used to write books and our history.

Look at the cities that were made in [b]Great Zimbabwe, Great Benin and even in Yorubaland. Africans were progressing from a different route.

Plus, the Europeans stole everything from the CHINESE [/b]AND THE [b]ARABS. The CHINESE were the most advanced people for CENTURIES!  And what about the Great Pyramids at Giza. They were created by Africans, not Arabs or Whites. They were black Africans. While the Europeans were painting their faces blue and creating Stonehenge, the Ancient Egyptians were creating monuments that were stand the test of time.

And let us not forget that Ethiopia was Christian before Europe ever became Christian. Learn Africa's history first, before you write erroneous statements.

You need to chill out with this ancient Egypt thing, sub saharan Africans have nothing to do with Egypt or the pyramids, some west Africans had not figured out the concept of the wheel by the 19th century. I suppose you'll tell me you're a direct descendant of king tut. Further more, Ethiopian DNA suggest heavy european admixture from thousands of years ago.

gadogado:

And this makes me ask another question, for those saying that Africans are as intelligent as Europeans, How come there isn't a single group of Africans that developed their own writing system or script besides the Ethiopians (who distant themselves from being "African) and claim a semetic root. We couldn't develop a written form of communication at any point in time, i think this goes to say that we are in fact less intellectually endowed but when it comes to athletics, we're very much gifted. The black race might have been created for work and not thinking.

This is just ignorance.

Nsibidi (also known as Nsibiri,[1] Nchibiddi or Nchibiddy)[2] is an ancient ideographic writing system (argued to be logographic or even syllabary)[3] that is indigenous to what is now southeastern Nigeria. Nsibidi is said to date back between 4000 and 5000 BC[1] or at least as old as the Cross River monoliths which date back to AD 170.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nsibidi

Beaf:

This is just ignorance.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nsibidi

Ive known about those drawings for years now.

It does not change the fact that those societies where illiterate and if you have a different proof you can present it

EzeUche22:

Look at what Africans were able to create prior to the European invasion and conquest!

And now look at what we create! Nothing!

Funny how those pre colonial africans created those pieces of art but could not "label" them if their lives depended on it.

sage:

You proved my point (Most parts of Africa needed external influence in order to read or write)

Arabic was also introduced to to parts of Africa before those parts could read and write either.

Only parts of Ethiopia could develop literacy on their own


Forget the Egypt argument its a dead horse

It does not matter if Europeans stole from Chinese. What matters is that they engineered a way of life that became better than anything humans had ever seen before.

Nobody stopped Africans from stealing from Chinese people and pioneering the best way of life for humans. Constant complaining about others does not help us at all


Benn, Yorubaland etc were simple societies. How far where they going to get without literacy?

I hope you can understand this, but the Europeans needed to steal from others. Do you want to know why? Europe is resource POOR! That is why they had the urge to travel the world. We Africans did not have to travel the world to get our resources, because everything we had is in Africa.

Who is complainant about others? Simply saying that Africa was a much better place when we had our own kingdoms, cities, and countries. Now you see Africans killing fellow Africans over resources. Tell me how colonialism has benefited Africans!

You are just being ignorant and hating your people and yourself which is sad indeed.

Nsibidi or whatever is fake, totally fake!!

gadogado:


You need to chill out with this ancient Egypt thing, sub saharan Africans have nothing to do with Egypt or the pyramids, some west Africans had not figured out the concept of the wheel by the 19th century. I suppose you'll tell me you're a direct descendant of king tut. Further more, Ethiopian DNA suggest heavy european admixture from thousands of years ago.

Egypt was black, not Arab. Stop being ignorant. The Afro-Asiatic people of Africa which includes the Hausa are part of this family.

Why would Ethiopian have European blood when Africa is the home of humanity? Europeans descended from Africans. We were on this Earth first. Africa has a highest genetic diversity than any continent in the world. Africa is the cradle of humankind.

I know I am not some descendant of some Egyptians. My people have been in this regions for thousands of years. We are the precursor to the Bantu who spread throughout Africa.

And like I said, learn African history before you make such erroneous statements.

EzeUche22:

I hope you can understand this, but the Europeans needed to steal from others. Do you want to know why? Europe is resource POOR! That is why they had the urge to travel the world. We Africans did not have to travel the world to get our resources, because everything we had is in Africa.

Who is complainant about others? Simply saying that Africa was a much better place when we had our own kingdoms, cities, and countries. Now you see Africans killing fellow Africans over resources. Tell me how colonialism has benefited Africans!

You are just being ignorant and hating your people and yourself which is sad indeed.

Africans were killing Africans before the Europeans came. In Nigeria, Fulanis and Yorubas were fighting each other to the finish before the British arrived.


And all these Africa is resorce rich thing. What resources were we using before the Europeans came.

Petroluem? Bauxite? Diamonds? Tin? Bitumen?

Did we even have a name for those resources? Did we know how to extract them? how to refine them?

What exactly were we doing with it before  Europeans arrived?

gadogado:

Funny how those pre colonial africans created those pieces of art but could not "label" them if their lives depended on it.

What do you mean label them? We know who created these works of art. It was craftsmen from these societies. These unknown craftsmen did not do it for name recognition, they did it for their people which is truly a treasure.

EzeUche22:

Egypt was black, not Arab. Stop being ignorant. The Afro-Asiatic people of Africa which includes the Hausa are part of this family.

Why would Ethiopian have European blood when Africa is the home of humanity? Europeans descended from Africans. We were on this Earth first. Africa has a highest genetic diversity than any continent in the world. Africa is the cradle of humankind.

I know I am not some descendant of some Egyptians. My people have been in this regions for thousands of years. We are the precursor to the Bantu who spread throughout Africa.

And like I said, learn African history before you make such erroneous statements.

You need to read up on North African indigenous peoples and their pre-historic populations.

Even today many North African countries still have Arabs as minorities

Not everybody in North Africa is Arab

sage:

Africans were killing Africans before the Europeans came. In Nigeria, Fulanis and Yorubas were fighting each other to the finish before the British arrived.


And all these Africa is resorce rich thing. What resources were we using before the Europeans came.

Petroluem? Bauxite? Diamonds? Tin? Bitumen?

Did we even have a name for those resources? Did we know how to extract them? how to refine them?

What exactly were we doing with it before  Europeans arrived?

Yes, Africans were killing each other before the Europeans came, but not to this extent.

Remember that it was Europeans, not Asians or Africans who started TWO world wars which killed millions of their people. The European only knows how to destroy, not create.

Have you heard of Mansa Musa? Who at the time was the richest man in the world, and when he went on his pilgrimage to Mecca, the gold he brought with him changed the course of European and Arab history. And guess what? He was an African. And guess another thing, Africans were mining gold. Refining bronze. And some were even creating Iron tools.

Mehn you need to pick up a book and learn African history. A continent such as vast as Africa, cannot be simplistically explained!

sage:

You need to read up on North African indigenous peoples and their pre-historic populations.

Even today many North African countries still have Arabs as minorities

Not everybody in North Africa is Arab

You are the one who is acting like North Africa is fully Arab. Saying that they are not Africans. The BERBERS and the TUAREG are not ARAB! They are indigenous Africans! Do they count mehn?

Who you think created the pyramids? Arabs, Europeans, ALIENS?

Sharon_f:

I think its pretty clear that gadogado thinks he is stup'ider than everyone else so theres no need trying to convince him otherwise.

I dont think so but you and you collective kin have been relentless in proving that you're indeed "stup'ider" than the rest of the world! How were your ancestors living before they came into contact with europeans? were they enlightened people or superstitious savages who believed a common cold was a demonic curse. Was your part of Africa clothed or walking around naked by that time Apart from the arts (music and little sculptures) what did Africans produce? what was the level of productivity of Africans prior to european contact?

EzeUche22:

You are the one who is acting like North Africa is fully Arab. Saying that they are not Africans. The BERBERS and the TUAREG are not ARAB! They are indigenous Africans! Do they count mehn?

Who you think created the pyramids? Arabs, Europeans, ALIENS?

I agree with you on this one

Berbers are indigenous Africans but that goes back to the fact that Africa is a very vast and diverse continent

People like Zidane are Africans

What color do these Ancient Egyptians look like?

They do not look white. 

Lets compare the achievements of ancient  Greece , Rome,Persia and other smaller empires,the structures they built like the  coliseum ,the palaces , the castles and compare those to what Black Africa looked like that time. You will discover that we were living in the dark  and we never matched the white man. And don't even mention ancient Egypt , it was only a small part of the continent and its population was not completely black.

I unlike most people here will not let baseless Afrocentrism get the better of me. Black Africa never matched the civilizations of Ancient Europe. Our continent is rich but we never developed ourselves and we paid the price by letting the white man develop or rob us in the process.

EzeUche22:

What color do these Ancient Egyptians look like?

They do not look white. 

there are other wall paintings from Egypt that depicted fair skinned people.

EzeUche22:

Yes, Africans were killing each other before the Europeans came, but not to this extent.

Remember that it was Europeans, not Asians or Africans who started TWO world wars which killed millions of their people. The European only knows how to destroy, not create.

Have you heard of Mansa Musa? Who at the time was the richest man in the world, and when he went on his pilgrimage to Mecca, the gold he brought with him changed the course of European and Arab history. And guess what? He was an African. And guess another thing, Africans were mining gold. Refining bronze. And some were even creating Iron tools.

Mehn you need to pick up a book and learn African history. A continent such as vast as Africa, cannot be simplistically explained!

@ bold=massive lie. I think you're confused, wasn't Mansa Musa a muslim? didnt he read and write arabic? wasn't his monarchy based of the borrowed arab-emirate system and weren't arabs the ones buying the gold from him? You're talking about a fully colonized and arabized king who probably loved arabs to no end. Not an indigenous, self created political or social order, were it not for the arabs, africans wouldn't really know what to do with gold. Africans were exchanging gold for salt with arabs back in the day.

bgees:

Lets compare the achievements of ancient  Greece , Rome,Persia and other smaller empires,the structures they built like the  coliseum ,the palaces , the castles and compare those to what Black Africa looked like that time. You will discover that we were living in the dark  and we never matched the white man. And don't even mention ancient Egypt , it was only a small part of the continent and its population was not completely black.

I unlike most people here will not let baseless Afrocentrism get the better of me. Black Africa never matched the civilizations of Ancient Europe. Our continent is rich but we never developed ourselves and we paid the price by letting the white man develop or rob us in the process.

WHY DO SOME PEOPLE LIKE YOURSELF HAVE SELF-HATE?

Do you think all of Europe was advanced? When Rome crumbled, Europe went into a Dark Age where life was short and brutish. Barbarian white people were running around, while in Africa, our kingdoms were rising. This is not Afrocentrism, this is history. Africans need to stop allowing whites to dictate our history and reclaim our history for ourselves.

What do you call Ethiopia? They had a literary script, monuments, and a rich culture.

bgees:

there are other wall paintings from Egypt that depicted fair skinned people.

Proof? Because I gave you proof. And could they have been portraying other Mesopotamian people such as the Persians, Hittites and Assyrians?

And let us forget how the Greek traveller, Herodotus described the Ancient Egyptians as brown [/b]with [b]WOOLY HAIR.

You all are making it too easy. I have refuted you all!

@peoples

Part of the problem with ancient Egypt is that the terms "black" "white" etc are actually rubbish terms that was just introduced recently to us. We are trying to describe an ancient civilization by using a modern day reference like the idea of "black" people

Ancient Egypt looks to have had people of all different colours

From very light/'white" looking people to browner people

This Egypt talk is a waste of time for a Nigerian. The early Egyptians having nothing in common with us at all. Saying they are "black" is meaningless too because their society was shaped very differently

A lot of people are mixing up two different arguments here

The first argument is whether Africans are worse off with slavery and colonisation and the answer to that is an emphatic yes. Arguing that we are better off because we can read and write is too simplistic because there are other more important factors such as standard and condition of living as well as hunger.

The second argument is about whether African was lagging behind other continents when the Europeans arrived and again, another emphatic yes. Whilst there were progressive societies in Africa, the lack of ambition and ability to take appropriate risks ensured that Africans of that era and this era were not and are not innovative. The attitude of the Europeans from the Byzantine era ensured that Kingdoms were created and enlarged as more dominant dynasties sought expansion. Having to either defend your society or wanting to subjugate other kingdoms led to serious innovation and competitiveness with a consequent advancement of European societies.

As an example of risk taking, read about Moctezuma and Hernan Cortes, the Spanish conqueror who conquered the Aztec empire. On arriving in Mayan territory, he burnt his ships having had his charter revoked earlier.

talking about Egypt is a waste of time for all Nigerians involved