₦airaland Forum

Tithing came from the agriculture - the crops, and the tenth animal in herds and flocks. ONLY farmers tithed. There is no example of any other type of profession that tithed, nor are there any instructions for anyone else to tithe, yet they had various other occupations during that period of time.

Arts and Crafts: Ex. 31:3-5; 35:31-35; 2 Ki. 16:10

Baker: Gen. 40:1-2; Jer. 37:21; Hos. 7:4

Builder: 2 Ki. 12:11; 22:6; Ezra 3:10; Matt 21:42; Heb. 3:3; 1 Pet. 2:7

Carpenter: 2 Sam. 5:11; 2 Ki. 12:11; 2 Chr. 24:12; Ezra 3:7; Isa. 44:13; Matt. 13:55; Mk. 6:3

Cook: 1 Sam. 8:13; 9:23-24

Doorkeeper: 2 Ki. 22:4; 25:18; 1 Chr. 15:23-24; Jer. 35:4

Fisherman: Isa. 19:8; Jer. 16:16; Ezek. 47:10; Matt. 4:18; 13:48; Lk. 5:2

Foremen: Ruth 2:5-6; 1 Ki. 5:16; 2 Chr. 2:2, 18; Matt. 20:8

Fortune Teller: Deut. 13:1-3; Acts 16:16

Goldsmith: Neh. 3:8, 31-32; Isa. 40:19; 41:7; 46:6; Jer. 10:9, 14; 51:17

Hunter: Gen. 10:9; 25:27; Jer. 16:16

Innkeeper: Lk. 10:35

Mason - Stonemasons: 2 Sam 5:11; 2 Ki. 12:12; 1 Chr. 22:15; 2 Chr. 24:12

Merchant - Trader: Gen. 23:16; 37:28; 1 Ki. 10:15; Neh. 13:20; Ezek. 27:3, 22-23; Matt. 13:45

Musician: 1 Ki. 10:12; 1 Chr. 6:33; 9:33; 2 Chr. 5:12

Perfume Maker: Ex. 30:25, 33, 35; 37:29; 1 Sam. 8:13; Neh. 3:8

Prostitute: Gen. 38:15-24; Lev. 21:14; Josh. 6:17, 25; Judg. 11:1; 16:1; Jer. 3:1; Joel 3:3; Matt. 21:31-32; Lk. 15:30; 1 Cor. 6:15-16; Jas. 2:25

Scribe - Teacher of the law: 1 Chr. 2:55; 1 Chr. 24:6; 27:32; Neh. 8:1; 13:13; Jer. 36:26; Matt. 2:4; Mk. 2:6; Acts 4:5

Silversmith: Judg. 17:4; Prov. 25:4; Acts 19:24

Spinning - Weaving: Ex. 28:3; 35:25-26; 2 Ki. 23:7; Prov. 31:19; Acts 9:39

Stonecutters: 1 Ki. 5:15; 2 Ki. 12:12; 1 Chr. 22:15

Supervisor: 2 Chr. 31:13; 34:17

Tanner: Num. 31:20; Acts 9:43; 10:6, 32

Tax Collector: Dan. 11:20; Matt. 10:3; Lk. 5:27

There is NO example of any of the above tithing, nor was there a provision is God's well-defined tithing command. The command to tithe was not a principle, it was a law, to be followed as it was written.

It is plain to see that giving did NOT begin at ten percent in the Old Testament. The tithe was PAID, not a gift, and paid ONLY by Israelite farmers. The others gave offerings; there giving did not begin at ten percent.

Since we are morally obligated to be givers, there is and was no ten percent guideline or starting point anywhere in the Bible. To use the OT tithe as a guide for giving doesn't make sense for several reasons. First, as already stated, the tithe wasn't giving. Next, not everyone was required to tithe - ONLY Israelite farmers, and ONLY from crops and animals.

The part of the world I live in is known as the Agricultural Capital of the World. Agriculture is what the economy is in this part of the US. Yet no pastor asks for a tenth of crops and animals - they want money, even though many church members are farmers. How can any pastor justify saying tithing on income is the principle of the OT tithe when income was NOT tithable?

I have attended many churches in the poorest areas of town and this is what I hear:

1 - Malachi 3:8-10
2 - God will return 100 fold
3 - If all you have is enough money to pay your electric bill, give that money to the church today and God will bless you with more money than you will need to pay all your bills.
4 - Tithers, ONLY, get in line to pay (or give) your tithe.  After all tithers have paid/given their tithe, we will let the rest of you give your offerings.
5 - The FIRST tenth belongs to God.  Those who don't give it to the church are preventing God from pouring down His blessings to you.
6 - The tithe is the only place in The Word where God says to test Him.
7 - If you are having financial problems, you need to start tithing now. (And yet I find in many cases it is those who faithfully tithe are the ones in financial trouble.)
8 - If you love God, you will keep His commandments and tithe.
9 - God wants to bless you but He can't until you tithe.
and the list goes on.

PURE FRAUD.  To teach tithing as voluntary is wrong, wrong, wrong because it INFERS the Biblical tithe to God - the obligation, the law.  Even those who teach it as voluntary stress the rewards, or returns you will receive.

The church has totally misrepresented The Lord's Tithe and to accept using the word tithe for giving results in more confusion to those who don't understand.

prettyeyes - Abraham did not PAY his tithe. He GAVE a tenth, not paid a tenth. Abraham GAVE a tenth of war spoils that Abraham, himself, said didn't belong to him.

If you want to follow Abraham's example, tithe ONE time, only on spoils of war that don't belong to you, and keep none of it for yourself.

Abraham did NOT pay a tithe to God.

Abraham did NOT give a tenth of his income.

Abraham did NOTHING of what the church teaches about tithing.

prettyeyes,

You seem to be confused between firstfruits, firstlings, and the tithe.  The tithe was NEVER the first.

EVERY TENTH ANIMAL.

The firstfruits went to the Temple for the priests while the tithe went to the Levites to go into their cities.  The priests got the firstfruits.  The Levites got the tithe.  THEN the Levites took a tenth of the tithe to the priests.  See Nehemiah 10:37-38.

The firstlings have NOTHING to do with the tithe.  Tenth is not mentioned.  You are aware that the word tithe means a tenth??

prettyeyes,

I said the tithe is every tenth animal from herds and flocks that passes under the rod.
Leviticus 27:32 (KJV) - And concerning the tithe of the herd, or of the flock, even of whatsoever passeth under the rod, the tenth shall be holy unto the LORD.

Numbers 18:16 has NOTHING to do with the tithe.

Leviticus 27:30-34 says that the crops could be redeemed but NOT the animals.  The tithe was still the crops, but a person could buy them back (redeem) them.

The tithe was paid to THE LEVITES, not the priests. The Levites were the ushers, singers, musicians, janitors, etc. - the servants of the priests. The Levites were then commanded to give a tenth of that tithe to the priests.

The priests and Levites only worked at the Temple about two weeks per year, on a rotational basis. NOT FULL TIME. The priests and Levites were divided into 24 "courses". See First Chronicles 24 for the priests and chapters 25 and 26 for the Levites. Each course only ministered in the Temple one week out of twenty four (1 in 24), and, depending on how many families were in each course, each family only ministered in the Temple two or three days during its courses’ week of ministry.

The Levites regularly lived in their cities and had their own farms.  Numbers 35:1-3 (KJV)
1And the LORD spake unto Moses in the plains of Moab by Jordan near Jericho, saying,
2Command the children of Israel, that they give unto the Levites of the inheritance of
their possession cities to dwell in; and ye shall give also unto the Levites suburbs for the cities round about them.
3And the cities shall they have to dwell in; and the suburbs of them shall be for their
cattle, and for their goods, and for all their beasts.

See also Joshua 21:1-8.  The Levites did NOT own the land, but it was given to them to live on and farm on, rent free.

Numbers 18:27 proves that neither wages nor income could be tithed on for The Lord’s Tithe.  Without this interpretation, Numbers 18:27 has no meaning and is only taking up space.

They had money, even wages, in Genesis.  They had a market system to buy and sell the crops and animals.  But the tithe was NOT on the money or the income.  Wage earners did NOT tithe.  Income from the barter exchange of crops and/or animals was NOT tithed on.  There is NO example of Jesus tithing, or Paul, or Peter, or the farm workers, or the craftsmen, etc. etc. etc.  INCOME WAS NOT TITHABLE.

viaro - you do bring up some valid points for me to think about.  I DO agree that the gentiles were NEVER under the law to begin with, so you definitely have a valid point.

I think at this point I will take back my comments about falling from grace and putting oneself under the law.  I will have to do some hard thinking on this.  Thanks for coming back on these issues to me.

viaro - The reason for tithing will determine whether it is a sin or not.

If giving a tenth of one's income, from the heart, that would be just fine.

If a person believes that giving a tenth of their income IS commanded by God, that this tenth IS The Lord's Tithe, then they have sinned by being disobedient to God as God said to take His tithe to the Levites.

Anyone who tithes under obligation has put themselves under the law, have fallen from grace, and will be judged by the law.

prettyeyes - You want to use Malachi 3:8-11.  Why not start with verse 7 instead of 8.  In verse 7 God said they weren't following HIS ORDINANCES (His commands).  Are YOU following those ordinances for the tithe?

Leviticus 27:30-33 - definition of The Lord's Tithe
Numbers 18 - the ordinances for The Lord's Tithe which God makes it VERY CLEAR to take His tithe to the Levites, FOREVER.

You quote Malachi without even knowing which ordinances God is talking about.  HOW CAN YOU PAY GOD'S TITHE IF YOU DON'T FOLLOW GOD'S DEFINITION AND ORDINANCES?

Here is how the definition of the word tithe has changed over the years.

DEFINITION OF THE WORD TITHE – from Strongs Hebrew Dictionary
A tenth, tenth part

That’s it.  The word tithe is a mathematical term and nothing else.  The word has nothing to do with God, giving to God, paying to God.  Therefore, when reading Genesis regarding Abraham and Jacob, the word tithe is a mathematical term only.

DEFINITION OF THE LORD’S TITHE – Leviticus 27:30-33
God, Himself, defined His tithe.  This is the ONLY tithe that God claimed “is the Lord’s.”
30And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, is the LORD’S: it is holy unto the LORD.
32And concerning the tithe of the herd, or of the flock, even of whatsoever passeth under the rod, the tenth shall be holy unto the LORD.

In other words, God defined His tithe as coming from ONLY crops and animals.

DEFINITION OF THE FESTIVAL TITHE – Deuteronomy 14:22-27
22Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year.
In verse 23 The Word adds, “the firstlings of thy herds and of thy flocks,” but notice, NOT a tenth of thy herds and flocks.

DEFINITION OF THE THREE-YEAR TITHE aka THE POOR TITHE – Deuteronomy 14:28-29
28At the end of three years thou shalt bring forth all the tithe of thine increase the same year, and shalt lay it up within thy gates

MAN’S DEFINITION OF THE TITHE – from made-made dictionaries

MacMillan's Modern Dictionary - 1938 edition: Tithe - tenth part, or any small part, of produce, profits, or the like paid as a tax or as a voluntary contribution, esp. for religion or charitable use.

The American Heritage Dictionary, Third Edition - 1994: Tithe - A tenth part of one's annual income contributed voluntarily or due as a tax, especially for the support of the clergy or church.

Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary - latest edition: Tithe - a tenth part of something paid as a voluntary contribution or as a tax especially for the support of a religious establishment.

As you can see, just since 1938 the definition has changed from a tenth part of produce or profits, to a tenth part of one's annual income, to a tenth part of something and all three definitions include something to do with the support of the church or a religious establishment.

NOW, TELL ME TITHE PAYERS - ARE YOU FOLLOWING GOD'S DEFINITION OF HIS TITHE, OR ARE YOU FOLLOWING MAN'S DEFINITION FOR HIS TITHE?

The ordinances that established the Levitical priesthood and the Lord's tithe are Numbers 18.  Numbers 18 was DISANNULLED according to Hebrews 7:5,12,18.

The actual robbing of God of the tithe was the priests stealing the portion of the tithe at the Temple that BELONGED TO THE LEVITES.  That is clear from Nehemiah 13.  The robbing God of the offerings was the priests offering the worse to God and keeping the best for themselves as shown in Malachi 1.

Tithe payers have NO scripture to back up tithing to the Christian Church.

Zikkyy said, "You don’t understand. Most people tithe because of the expected benefits (e.g. a 100 fold return or financial security)."

My reply is:  if what you say it true, then most people are tithing for the wrong reason and they have absolutely NO IDEA what the Bible teaches.  These people have absolutely NO heart in their giving, and are the MOST SELFISH INDIVIDUALS AROUND!  I can't believe anyone can fall for this type of false prosperity teaching!  Just shows how gullible people are.

IF you give to get back, you lose most of the blessings.  The REAL blessings come when you give to be giving, with absolutely no expectation of getting anything back.

Instead of tithing, why not GIVE from the heart?  Is giving from the heart a concept that is just too hard for people to understand?

The Biblical tithe is NOT giving, it is a payment.

I guess some of you need a structural rule to follow in your giving.  Those that have The Holy Spirit within them, AND USE IT, don't need the rules.  If they pray and seek guidance, The Spirit will lead them to give the amount GOD WANTS THEM TO GIVE.

WHY is that so hard to understand?

Some of you just don't realize the seriousness of the tithing situation.

Those who tithe BECAUSE they believe they are OBLIGATED to by God's command have PUT THEMSELVES UNDER THE LAW; THEREFORE, THEY FALL FROM GRACE.

You CANNOT be both under the law and under grace.

Those who put themselves under the law WILL BE JUDGED BY THE LAW - ALL 600+ OF THEM!  Now, how many of you want to be judged by the law?

Jesus died on the cross so that we wouldn't have to be judged by the law.  KEEP PAYING YOUR TITHES AND IGNORE WHAT JESUS DID FOR YOU ON THE CROSS.

I am NOT saying you lose salvation by tithing, only that you fall from grace.

Pastors who teach and collect the tithe are either liars or ignorant.  BOTH are leading their sheep AWAY from The Lord by teaching a FALSE GOSPEL.

NO ONE can possibly believe that tithing on your income and giving it to the church is Biblical IF YOU HAVE STUDIED THE HOLY BIBLE.  You just can't come to that conclusion because NO WHERE in the Holy Bible does it say or even infer that anyone, at anytime, should tithe on their income, nor does it say a tithe should be taken to the church.

Those against the tithe continually give scripture.  Those who believe in tithing keep giving their opinions.

IS IT THAT HARD TO OPEN A BIBLE AND FIND SCRIPTURE TO BACK UP YOUR COMMENTS?

Folusade said, "For your information, every church or every bible believing church gives brethren the opportunity to give their tithe to God, and they all have different ways of collection!"

Not so.  First, not all denominations teach that tithing is proper in the Christian Church.  Second, not all churches of the same denomination, such as Baptist Churches, teach tithing - it is up to each pastor.

Tithing opponents throughout the years as compiled by Dr. David Croteau, Liberty University, You Mean I Don’t Have to Tithe?, p271-292:

Clement of Rome 100
Didache 100
Justin Martyr 165
Tertullian 230
Origen 255
Cyprian 258
Waldenses 1150+-
Thomas Aquinas 1275
John Wycliff 1384
John Huss 1415
German Peasants 1520
Anabaptists 1525
Erasmus 1536
Otto Brumfels 1534
Martin Luther 1546
Philip Melanchthon 1560
Separatists Amsterdam 1603
John Smythe 1609 Baptist
John Robinson 1610
English Parliament 1650+-
Puritans & Plgrims Mass 1650+-
John Cotton 1652 Puritan
Roger Williams 1636 Baptist
Little Parliament 1653
Oliver Cromwell 1658
John Milton 1658 Puritan
Particular Baptists 1660
John Owen 1680 Baptist
Francis Turretin 1687
John Bunyan 1688 Baptist
Quakers 1768
John Gill 1771 Baptist
John Wesley 1791
BAPTISTS IN AMERICA 1800s
Adam Clarke 1832 Baptist
Charles Buck 1833
J C Philpot 1835 Baptist
Charles H Spurgeon 1832 Baptist
Parsons Cooke 1850
Samuel Harris 1850
Edward A Lawrence 1850
John Peter Lange 1876
Henry William Clark 1891 Engllish
S H Kellogg 1891
G Campbell Morgan 1898 Congregational
Albert Vail 1913 Baptist
Frank Fox 1913
David MaConaughy 1918 Episcopal
William Pettingill 1932
John Harvey Grime 1934 Baptist
John T Mueller 1934 Lutheran
H E Dana 1937 Bapt Historian
R C H LENSKI 1946 Lutheran
Lewis Sperry Chafer 1948 DTS Foundeer
W E Vine 1949
James F Rand 1953
Francis Pieper 1953 Lutheran
Ray Stedman 1951
L L McR 1955 Catholic
Paul Leonard Stagg 1958 Baptist
Hiley H Ward 1958 Baptist
Roy T Cowles 1958
Elizabeth P Tilton 1958
R C Rein 1958 Lutheran
Robert A Baker 1959 Bapt Historian
Wick Bromall 1960
John Byron Evans 1960
Norman Tenpas 1967
James Edward Anderson 1967
Alfred Martin 1968
CHARLES C RYRIE 1969 DTS
Jerry Horner 1972 S Baptist
Pieter Verhoef 1974
Dennis Wretlind 1975
Jack J Peterson 1978 Pres
Donald Kraybill 1978
Jon Zens 1979 Baptist
Richard Cunningham 1979 S Bapt
Gary Frieson 1980
JOHN MACARTHUR 1982-2000
Paul Fink 1982
George Monroe Castillo 1982
Tony Badillo 1984
James M Boice 1986
Michael E Oliver 1986 Rest
W Clyde Tilley 1987
Scott Collier 1987
Ronald M Campbell 1987
R E O White 1988
William McDonald 1989
Charles Swindoll 1990 Dallas Seminary
Rhodes Thompson 1990
J VERNON MCGEE 1999
Jerome Smith 1992
CRAIG BLOMBERG 1993 Denver Seminary
J Duncan M Derrett 1993
Walter Kaiser Jr 1994 Gordon-Cromwell
Moises Silva 1994
Benny D Prince 1995
Brian K Morley 1996
Linda L Belleville 1996
Ron Rhodes 1997
Ernest L Martin 1997
Michael Webb 1998
R Johnston 1999
Mark Snoeberger 2000 Baptist
Stuart Murray 2000 Eng
George W Greene 2000
Old Line Primitive Baptists 2000
Jaime Cardinal Sin 2000 Cath Archbishop
RUSSELL EARL KELLY 2001 Baptist
Jonathan Kitchcart 2001
Frank Viola 2002
George Barna 2002
Michael Morrison 2002
Elliott Miller 2003
Matthew Narramore 2004
David Alan Black 2004 Baptist SEBTS
Andreas Kostenberger 2007 Baptist SEBTS
Danny Akin 2007 Baptist SEBTS
Mark Driscoll 2008
Roman Catholic Church
Jehovah’s Witnesses
New Worldwide Church of God

chealbaby - and just how to you pay your tithe? Do you follow God's definition for His tithe, or do you follow man's definition? Do you follow God's directions and take His tithe to the Levites, or do you follow man's directions and take it to your church?

In other words, chealbaby, are you follow God's Word OR are you follow the teachings of man?

IF you believe you are following God's Word, can you give me the scriptures you are using that would validate tithing on your income and taking it to the church? Remember, tithe means TEN PERCENT.

nearest said, "Anyways, on paying tithe, do as your pastor tells you, if you have studied the bible and disagree with your pastor, what then are you doing in his church?"

I, myself, did just that - I have left every church that teaches and collects the tithe.  But I had a private meeting with the pastor of each of those churches.  The results:

Pastor #1 - Pastor said he thought I was wrong but he would do some research.  Within two weeks he stopped quoting Malachi 3:8-10.  Within several weeks he stopped teaching tithing, BUT he kept using the work when actually teaching giving from the heart.  He wouldn't give up using the word or admit to the congregation he had been wrong.  He did admit to me, in private, that his teaching had been wrong.

Pastor #2 - Same results as #1 above.  Just wouldn't give up the word tithe.

Pastor #3 - In a private meeting told me he knew tithing ended at the cross and was not brought into the New Testament, BUT he had to teach tithing, robbing God, etc. BECAUSE PEOPLE JUST DON'T WANT TO GIVE.  He said if he didn't teach it that way they wouldn't bring in enough money to keep the church doors open.  He, therefore, justified lying, in his mind, since he was bringing people to The Lord.  This particular pastor has his Ph.D. in theology.

Pastor #4 - In a private meeting agreed that the law was nailed to the cross, but said that tithing was NEVER a law or command!!  Even when I showed it to him in the scriptures, he denied it.  This guy is either a liar or just plain ignorant.

Stagger – you quote scripture but don’t understand what it is telling you.

Genesis 14:20 – Melchizedek comes out to meet Abraham, as Abraham gives him a tithe of the spoils of his victory. – Do YOU understand what you just said? Abraham did NOT give a tenth of his income or his own property. Is this what your church teaches you?

Genesis 28:20-22 – After the vision of God’s renewed covenant, Jacob initiates a covenant with God vowing to give him a tithe of what he receives from the promised land. – And in this vow, Jacob sets the conditions. Is that what you do when you tithe; tell God what He must do FIRST? Does the Word say that Jacob ever, in fact, tithed?

Numbers 18:21 – The tithe is dedicated to the Levites (the priests, or like today, the pastors for the work in the tabernacle. – You are wrong. The Levites were NOT like the pastors of today. The Levites were SERVANTS TO THE PRIESTS. They were the musicians, singers, ushers, janitors, etc. The Levites then gave a tenth of the tithe to the priests. Is that the way your church does it?

Nehemiah 10:37-38 – Israel obeys God and brings the tithes to the storehouse. – You better read that scripture again. It say the firstfruits were taken to the Temple for the priests and the tithe was taken to the Levites to go into their cities, NOT to the Temple or storehouse. THEN the Levites took a tenth of the tithe to the Temple. THAT is what went to the storehouse.

Nehemiah 13:5-12 – Nehemiah cleanses the storehouse and kicks Tobiah out of the room that was designated to store the tithe. He then restores order. – THIS, my friend, explains that the PRIESTS STOLE THE LEVITES PORTION OF THE TITHE that the Levites brought for their own food. THIS is what Malachi 3, robbing God of the tithe is talking about.

Hebrews 7:5-9 – Abraham’s tithe is used to illustrate a change concerning the priesthood. – WHY did you stop at verse 9? Keep going and when you get to verse 18, you will see that THE COMMAND WAS DISANNULLED. In other words, Numbers 18 was disannulled – the command that instigated the Levitical priesthood and the tithe.

Are you aware that the priests and Levites only worked at the Temple about two weeks per year, on a rotational basis? NOT FULL TIME. The priests and Levites were divided into 24 "courses". See First Chronicles 24 for the priests and chapters 25 and 26 for the Levites. Each course only ministered in the Temple one week out of twenty four (1 in 24), and, depending on how many families were in each course, each family only ministered in the Temple two or three days during its courses’ week of ministry. I bet your pastor never told you this!

Numbers 18:27 proves that neither wages nor income could be tithed on for The Lord’s Tithe. Without this interpretation, Numbers 18:27 has no meaning and is only taking up space.

Now, for you who tithe, can you please give scripture to show that you are following God’s definition for His tithe, and can you give scripture to show that God directs His tithe be taken to the church? IF YOU DON’T HAVE THE SCRIPTURE TO BACK UP YOUR CLAIMS, YOU’D BETTER STUDY MORE.

Real Christians are SPIRIT LED.  Real Christians do not follow the Old Testament laws as their guidance, but rather use The Holy Spirit for their guidance.

Real Christians who are Spirit led might find that God wants them to give 50% or more of their income.

On the other hand, real Christians who have little might find that God wants them to give very little.

Real Christians study the Bible for themselves and do NOT believe everything their pastor says.

Real Christians know that tithing was to support the Levitical priesthood and that we are no longer under that priesthood.  WE are now the priests.

Real Christians know that the purpose of The Lord's Tithe was to support the Levites who were to keep up THE TEMPLE WHERE THE SPIRIT OF GOD LIVED.  NOW the Spirit lives within our bodies.

Too many church goes are religious but have no relation with God.  Too many church goers are gullible.

To those who actually believe you should be tithing today, I have some cheap land I'd like to sell to you.

Looks like this blog has a bunch of comments from church goers instead of those who really study the Bible.

The first time tithe is mentioned in the Bible is Abraham's tithe of pagan spoils of war, and Abraham kept NOTHING for himself. This was NOT an act of worship. The goods that Abraham gave the tenth from didn’t even belong to Abraham:

Genesis 14:21 (NIV) - The king of Sodom said to Abram, “Give me the people and keep the goods for yourself.”

Notice in verse 21 the king of Sodom didn’t ask Abraham if he would give back to him the people, but rather said GIVE ME the people and keep the goods for yourself. The way that is worded indicates that the king of Sodom was claiming that the people and the goods belonged to him and those he represented.

Genesis 14:22-24 (NIV) - 22But Abram said to the king of Sodom, “I have raised my hand to the LORD, God Most High, Creator of heaven and earth, and have taken an oath 23that I will accept nothing belonging to you, not even a thread or the thong of a sandal, so that you will never be able to say, ‘I made Abram rich.’ 24I will accept nothing but what my men have eaten and the share that belongs to the men who went with me—to Aner, Eshcol and Mamre. Let them have their share.”

Notice in verses 23 and 24 Abraham also acknowledges that the goods belonged to the king of Sodom and those he represented.

Therefore, it is clear that both the king of Sodom and Abraham acknowledged that the spoils of war did NOT belong to Abraham, yet he gave a tenth of the spoils to King Melchizedek. This would seem that Abraham did something wrong, if not even illegal, but Biblical historians agree that it was custom in Abraham's day to give the king a tenth of the war spoils. Had Abraham not given the tenth, he would have gone against custom.

Conclusion: Abraham did NOT give a tenth of his income, or his wealth. Abraham gave a tenth of the spoils of war that didn’t belong to him. That is NOT an example for Christians to follow today.

The next mention of a tithe is Jacob's VOW to tithe. Jacob set the conditions, not God. Nowhere in The Word does it tell us that Jacob actually tithed. Genesis 28:10-22

Next is The Lord's Tithe. God gave His definition as a tenth of crops and animals which came from God's hand, not man's income. God NEVER commanded anyone to tithe on anything that man made or earned. Leviticus 27:30-33.

The ordinances (instructions, or laws) for The Lord's Tithe are in Numbers 18. God gave strict orders to take His tithe to the Levites. God NEVER changed that command. Anyone who takes God's tithe to anyone other than the Levites is being disobedient to God's Word.

There are others tithes in the Bible such as the Festival Tithe and the Tithe for the Poor. It is The Lord's Tithe that churches pattern their teaching after.

Church leaders ignore God's definition of His tithe, and ignore God's ordinances for His tithe. They change the words to fit their pocket book. This is nothing but manipulation of God's Word. They are false teachers.

The Bible CLEARLY SHOWS that the tithe ENDED at the cross in the Book of Hebrews. In the first nine verses of Hebrews 7 the words tenth or tithes appears SEVEN TIMES. The ONLY place in the Bible, after Calvary, that tithing appears is in Hebrews 7.

In Hebrews 7:5 we are told that Levi (the Levites) took the tithes under the law. In Hebrews 7:12 we are told that when the priesthood changes, the law will change. Hebrews 7:18 is telling us that Numbers 18 was disannulled. Numbers 18 established the Levitical priesthood, and part of that establishing included tithing. When the Levitical priesthood ended (at Calvary, or at least in the year 70AD when the temple was destroyed), all laws that established that priesthood were canceled. If Numbers 18 wasn't canceled, we would still be under the Levitical priesthood.

Those who argue they didn't have money or income then really need to study the scriptures. They had money and wages, even in Genesis. The farmers had income from barter exchanges, and they had markets to buy and sell as proven in Deuteronomy 14:24-26.

Those who argue Malachi 3:8, robbing God, need to start with verse 7. God is talking about His ordinances in Numbers 18 which we learned were disannulled according to Hebrews 7:18. Also, if you start with Malachi 1, you will see that God is speaking to the priests, not the people. The priests robbed God of the tithe (Nehemiah 13) and the priests robbed God of the offerings (Malachi 1).

If your pastor teaches you should be tithing today, LEAVE THAT CHURCH and find one that teaches truth instead of a man-made gospel.

I agree with Enigma.

21And the king of Sodom said unto Abram, Give me the persons, and take the goods to thyself.

IF the "goods" belonged to Abram, why would the king of Sodom give Abram permission to take the goods to thyself?

In my opinion, and not to open this up again, verse 21 reinforces that it was custom to give the tenth. Otherwise, I don't believe Abram would have given a tenth of property not belonging to him.

To whom does the legal claims of "spoils of warfare" belong? We know (and I hope we still have this agreement) that it is to Abraham that the SPOILS of war belong in Genesis 14.

Since Abraham GAVE UP his legal right by his vow, BEFORE he went to war, Abraham never had a legal right to the spoils. He had possession, but not legal rights. The fact that the two Kings may have not known of Abraham's vow doesn't change the fact that he had GIVEN UP his legal rights to the spoils.

Without knowing all the laws at that time, we can't determine who acquired the rights that Abraham gave up. We only know who had possession of the spoils, and what was said between Abraham and the two Kings.

To go on and on and on and on serves no purpose. You are arguing without knowing all the facts.

Try me - your life will never remain the same after viaro deals with you.

Biggest laugh I've had in a long time! That's for the humor!

I have said and repeated that these things are simply based on PRINCIPLES.

You are making up the principle involved. Actually, there is NO principle with Abraham's tenth.

You seem to think that the principle is free-will giving of a tenth. I could just as well say the principle involved is that Christians should keep nothing for themselves. Or how about the principle here is that Christians should make a vow with God that they will accept NO salary/wages from their employer. That way, the employer cannot say that he made you wealthy.

The Bible gives facts, and the Bible teaches principles. But when the Bible teaches a principle, it teaches it AS a principle; i.e. give according to your means.

You take a fact and then MAKE UP a principle to substantiate what you want the Bible to teach. You are a phony; a false teacher for doing so.

I won't bother to count how often I stated that Abram's example was one of Christian free-will offering.

Yes, a free-will GIFT (NOT an offering) to a King, not a church.
Yes, a free-will GIFT (NOT an offering) of spoils of war.
Yes, a free-will GIFT (NOT an offering) ONE TIME.
NOT a free-will gift or offering of money.
NOT a free-will gift or offering from his normal vocational earnings.
NOT a free-will gift or offering to God.

Your arguments are fruitless.

Even though I believe it was custom at that time to give a tenth of the war spoils, a person can still go against custom; therefore, I have said all along that it was free-will. My book says it was free-will. I have never said it wasn't free-will.

Show me where the scriptures say Abram gave an OFFERING? Did I miss that?

I did not "pop in" here to debate, but rather make an observation.  I do not have time to debate as I am leaving town again.

BEFORE Abram gave the tenth, Genesis 13:2 (KJV) - And Abram was very rich in cattle, in silver, and in gold.

Now, those who are HONEST must agree, IF you stick with what we know from the scriptures, and add nothing and take out nothing,

To HONESTLY follow Abram's (or Abraham's) example:
1 - do not tithe on any cattle you have
2 - do not tithe on any silver and gold (MONEY) you have
3 - do not tithe on anything that comes from your normal, everyday vocation
4 - tithe ONLY one time, and ONLY on spoils of war, and keep nothing for yourself

No honest man can say he is following Abraham's example by giving a tenth of their income to the church.  That's just pure fabrication.